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Shame - does it hinder or help you lose or gain weight?
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For me a little bit of shame was a good thing. I can't say I hated myself when I was fat, but I knew I was going to face some health problems if I just let it keep on happeneing freely, so I decided to take the action necessary. I'm one of those who feels rsponsible to take care of myself, I'd not like to be a burden to others in my old age
and I'm successfuly losing weight. 0 -
I thought it was easy to lose weight, but that doesn't mean everyone is in the place where it's easy. And for me losing is easier than maintaining. (I lost 95 lbs so far. Would like to eventually lose a bit more.)
Losing was easy in part because I thought about the other things I'd achieved and decided weight loss was just another problem to be solved. Shame would have been counterproductive.6 -
sunnybeaches105 wrote: »sunnybeaches105 wrote: »sunnybeaches105 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Not everyone who feels "unashamed" about being overweight is whining. In fact, I think people who accept themselves and don't feel shameful and powerless are far less likely to whine.
Personally, I never whined about my weight aloud, because I didn't want anyone to hear me admit I considered it a failure of mine. (Also, because my automatic response to whining, including that tendency in myself, is why don't you do something about it, if it bothers you.)
I didn't whine either. I agree that not everyone whines. Truly "accepting" oneself takes honestly. Once I was honest with myself I wanted change. Honesty is something else I see missing in FA.
Honesty - like their often cited stat of only 5-20% of weight loss attempts resulting in long term success? Dude, you need some dishonesty and blatant stubbornness to embark on this journey and actually believe you'll make it. I'm fine with that and frankly do not see the FA movement as being dishonest. They've just made different choices than you might have if you were in their situation
I agree with stubborn but not the dishonesty part. That may be the case for some, I've heard people talk about "working hard" when they have to put in effort over a weekend or past 5:00. Stats like you pulled out of thin air were made for them. They don't experience hard work unless its forced upon them. They whine and moan and never do anything above and beyond the minimum.
Then there are others. Some of us embrace hard work and thrive on it. We revel in it, it drives us. For us, work can be a drug in and of itself, and it's wonderful to feel that level of energy. I see others on here like that, several of whom I've clashed with. There's nothing like two stubborn people arguing with each other, but I'll always respect that person far more than the one who blindly follows and doesn't think or work.
Sure, we fail at times. We hit a wall. Life gets in the way. We make a fool of ourselves. But, we learn to laugh it off, pick ourselves up, figure out what we did wrong, and keep moving. Hell, it took me 6 years to get through college because I couldn't afford it and had to work full time. I didn't have more than 4-5 days off a year for several years for most of that period. I worked 80+ hours a week for the first 8 years of my career. I hit a wall several times, saw colleagues die from exhaustion and addictions, watched it evaporate after the economy collapsed, and had to completely start over. Business is good now. I pushed through. You want something? Work for it. Not that play work like so many do, but real work. People who really work are rare. And think about it. Work hard and smart. You say different choices? No, their choices were made for them when they started making excuses and blaming everyone but themselves.
Guess my stat pulled out of thin air now makes even more sense since people who really work are very rare
Was actually nice reading a little bit about you, though.
But, to be honest, my first thought was, "Wut"
Meh. It wasn't that hard for me to lose weight. It's not that much work. That's the point. People won't put in even a little real effort. There's even a website full of people chearing them on, and they'd rather talk about shame. If it's not that simple then at least put in the effort to get counseling. It's just frustrating to watch.
That was my self-perception, too: That it was easy to lose weight - just kind of a fun science-fair project, once I found MFP.
But I think it can be easy for someone like me - a nuts'n'bolts, analytic, non-emotional kind of person, who doesn't have much in the way of disordered thinking around food - to believe that people who are differently-wired from me can simply decide to think, feel, and behave differently, and change their behavior through logic and force of rationality. That's not necessarily true.
Similarly, it can be easy for someone like me - who burns above the TDEE any calculator predicts for my age, weight and activity level, and has no (untreated) metabolic complicators - to believe that others would have the same experience if they just settled down and worked on it. That's not necessarily true, either.
I can kind of follow your logic about the workplace, where we can see whether co-workers are attacking tasks with energy, or frittering on Facebook (or whatever) every time the boss isn't looking. But there's no way to see the effect of someone else's hunger-driving hormone levels or metabolic complexities, let alone the mental and psychological muscles they're able to harness to the task of changing behavior.
Yes, people within a range of normal wiring can choose to work on & improve their will power, rationality, and other psychological/mental tools. I see folks here on MFP doing that frequently, and try to encourage and help them as best I can. But not everyone comes out of the box in a spot that makes these things as easy as they are for (some) others.
I don't believe in giving people a total pass for lack of commitment or whining, but compassion is important, too.7 -
I love how people will cherry pick a sentence, highlight it, ignore an additional comment about emotional needs, and then proceed to explain in detail how emotional needs may be a limitation. Lots of unnecessary hand wringing.1
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I just discussed this idea with my mother last night. Shaming people into doing something better is basically just one method of telling them what to do. If someone tries to tell me what to do, regardless of what it is, it is a sure trigger to my stubborn side kicking and and me digging in my heels against whatever it is. Besides that, just like with addictions, people need to decide for themselves that they are ready to do something to make big change.
My mom has been eating a lot better for about a year due to officially becoming diabetic. And while I am the one cooking and doing the calculations of the carbs for the meals for her, I continued on as I was with eating how much I wanted and eating candy and snacks, although usually not when she was around. Fast forward to about a month and a half ago, I glanced at myself in a mirror I was passing and for some reason it really stuck with me "I am grossly fat" (in my own opinion who cares about others' opinions). The next day I started tracking everything I was eating and declared my limit was 1500 calories (just because 11 years ago, when I was declared hypertensive and hyperlipidemic, that was my daily limit). After doing that for almost 2 weeks, I started using MFP instead of paper and pencil and after picking 1.5 lbs/week, they declared my amount was 1370.
Even now, I still have my treats but I think about them (almost obsessively) before I decide to have one to make sure that's in fact what I want and if I have had too many calories because of it, I know I will have to do extra walking to make up for it. I don't let myself feel guilty or ashamed of having them, but I know that if I do have them, it will mean more work for myself or a longer time before seeing the results I want.2 -
sunnybeaches105 wrote: »sunnybeaches105 wrote: »sunnybeaches105 wrote: »sunnybeaches105 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Not everyone who feels "unashamed" about being overweight is whining. In fact, I think people who accept themselves and don't feel shameful and powerless are far less likely to whine.
Personally, I never whined about my weight aloud, because I didn't want anyone to hear me admit I considered it a failure of mine. (Also, because my automatic response to whining, including that tendency in myself, is why don't you do something about it, if it bothers you.)
I didn't whine either. I agree that not everyone whines. Truly "accepting" oneself takes honestly. Once I was honest with myself I wanted change. Honesty is something else I see missing in FA.
Honesty - like their often cited stat of only 5-20% of weight loss attempts resulting in long term success? Dude, you need some dishonesty and blatant stubbornness to embark on this journey and actually believe you'll make it. I'm fine with that and frankly do not see the FA movement as being dishonest. They've just made different choices than you might have if you were in their situation
I agree with stubborn but not the dishonesty part. That may be the case for some, I've heard people talk about "working hard" when they have to put in effort over a weekend or past 5:00. Stats like you pulled out of thin air were made for them. They don't experience hard work unless its forced upon them. They whine and moan and never do anything above and beyond the minimum.
Then there are others. Some of us embrace hard work and thrive on it. We revel in it, it drives us. For us, work can be a drug in and of itself, and it's wonderful to feel that level of energy. I see others on here like that, several of whom I've clashed with. There's nothing like two stubborn people arguing with each other, but I'll always respect that person far more than the one who blindly follows and doesn't think or work.
Sure, we fail at times. We hit a wall. Life gets in the way. We make a fool of ourselves. But, we learn to laugh it off, pick ourselves up, figure out what we did wrong, and keep moving. Hell, it took me 6 years to get through college because I couldn't afford it and had to work full time. I didn't have more than 4-5 days off a year for several years for most of that period. I worked 80+ hours a week for the first 8 years of my career. I hit a wall several times, saw colleagues die from exhaustion and addictions, watched it evaporate after the economy collapsed, and had to completely start over. Business is good now. I pushed through. You want something? Work for it. Not that play work like so many do, but real work. People who really work are rare. And think about it. Work hard and smart. You say different choices? No, their choices were made for them when they started making excuses and blaming everyone but themselves.
Guess my stat pulled out of thin air now makes even more sense since people who really work are very rare
Was actually nice reading a little bit about you, though.
But, to be honest, my first thought was, "Wut"
Meh. It wasn't that hard for me to lose weight. It's not that much work. That's the point. People won't put in even a little real effort. There's even a website full of people chearing them on, and they'd rather talk about shame. If it's not that simple then at least put in the effort to get counseling. It's just frustrating to watch.
That doesn't mean that it's easy for everyone else. If it were easy to lose and maintain weight, there would be less people who have to do it.
A "little" effort doesn't do anything for my weight loss. It takes a huge effort to get the scale to move down.
Do you want to share how many pounds you lost and how long it took you?
Around 90 pounds. Took 3 years to get lean the first time around, but only about 6 months of that was after I found MFP. That's when it became easy. We all have a ridiculously effective tool in MFP. I wish I had found it earlier.
Awesome! 90 lbs!!!
The tool is great. Makes it easy to keep track. But that's all it does. The tool does nothing for the emotional issues around weight.
I am finding losing very hard. It is something that takes a ton of effort for me. I don't view this as a character defect as some peple do. I don't think sunnybeaches said it was.
There are people who feel contempt if someone says losing is hard. It isn't whining to say that. It's a fact for many people.
I feel ashamed when someone says I am whining when expressing that it is hard. My problem for feeling ashamed and their problem for not having compassion. Wanting to discuss the difficult issues around losing weight isn't whining.5 -
sunnybeaches105 wrote: »sunnybeaches105 wrote: »sunnybeaches105 wrote: »sunnybeaches105 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Not everyone who feels "unashamed" about being overweight is whining. In fact, I think people who accept themselves and don't feel shameful and powerless are far less likely to whine.
Personally, I never whined about my weight aloud, because I didn't want anyone to hear me admit I considered it a failure of mine. (Also, because my automatic response to whining, including that tendency in myself, is why don't you do something about it, if it bothers you.)
I didn't whine either. I agree that not everyone whines. Truly "accepting" oneself takes honestly. Once I was honest with myself I wanted change. Honesty is something else I see missing in FA.
Honesty - like their often cited stat of only 5-20% of weight loss attempts resulting in long term success? Dude, you need some dishonesty and blatant stubbornness to embark on this journey and actually believe you'll make it. I'm fine with that and frankly do not see the FA movement as being dishonest. They've just made different choices than you might have if you were in their situation
I agree with stubborn but not the dishonesty part. That may be the case for some, I've heard people talk about "working hard" when they have to put in effort over a weekend or past 5:00. Stats like you pulled out of thin air were made for them. They don't experience hard work unless its forced upon them. They whine and moan and never do anything above and beyond the minimum.
Then there are others. Some of us embrace hard work and thrive on it. We revel in it, it drives us. For us, work can be a drug in and of itself, and it's wonderful to feel that level of energy. I see others on here like that, several of whom I've clashed with. There's nothing like two stubborn people arguing with each other, but I'll always respect that person far more than the one who blindly follows and doesn't think or work.
Sure, we fail at times. We hit a wall. Life gets in the way. We make a fool of ourselves. But, we learn to laugh it off, pick ourselves up, figure out what we did wrong, and keep moving. Hell, it took me 6 years to get through college because I couldn't afford it and had to work full time. I didn't have more than 4-5 days off a year for several years for most of that period. I worked 80+ hours a week for the first 8 years of my career. I hit a wall several times, saw colleagues die from exhaustion and addictions, watched it evaporate after the economy collapsed, and had to completely start over. Business is good now. I pushed through. You want something? Work for it. Not that play work like so many do, but real work. People who really work are rare. And think about it. Work hard and smart. You say different choices? No, their choices were made for them when they started making excuses and blaming everyone but themselves.
Guess my stat pulled out of thin air now makes even more sense since people who really work are very rare
Was actually nice reading a little bit about you, though.
But, to be honest, my first thought was, "Wut"
Meh. It wasn't that hard for me to lose weight. It's not that much work. That's the point. People won't put in even a little real effort. There's even a website full of people chearing them on, and they'd rather talk about shame. If it's not that simple then at least put in the effort to get counseling. It's just frustrating to watch.
That doesn't mean that it's easy for everyone else. If it were easy to lose and maintain weight, there would be less people who have to do it.
A "little" effort doesn't do anything for my weight loss. It takes a huge effort to get the scale to move down.
Do you want to share how many pounds you lost and how long it took you?
Around 90 pounds. Took 3 years to get lean the first time around, but only about 6 months of that was after I found MFP. That's when it became easy. We all have a ridiculously effective tool in MFP. I wish I had found it earlier.
Awesome! 90 lbs!!!
The tool is great. Makes it easy to keep track. But that's all it does. The tool does nothing for the emotional issues around weight.
I am finding losing very hard. It is something that takes a ton of effort for me. I don't view this as a character defect as some peple do. I don't think sunnybeaches said it was.
There are people who feel contempt if someone says losing is hard. It isn't whining to say that. It's a fact for many people.
I feel ashamed when someone says I am whining when expressing that it is hard. My problem for feeling ashamed and their problem for not having compassion. Wanting to discuss the difficult issues around losing weight isn't whining.
Saying it's difficult and working through those emotional issues isn't whining. Hell, bitching about it while working through them isn't whining. Constantly talking about how difficult it is without putting in the work is whining. I know, I'm probably the only person on the planet who makes that distinction. I feel like if someone is working then *kitten* away, because they've earned it. Bitching isn't the same as whining.
I don't think you're going to find many people on MFP without compassion. There are far better sites for that sort of thing. In my experience people on here care. There an entire thread of volunteer mentors. There are countless threads full of good advice, Hell, people argue details for pages on end so new people see and understand the process. I think that's why so many of us come off as harsh. We like seeing people succeed and we know that the only way a person will change is if that person puts in the work. Wishing/hoping/praying not so much. Knowledge that's not applied just doesn't help.
Again though, the physical act of losing weight is easy. Shedding the emotional baggage and connection with food? Yes, I agree, that can take some work. But it's still work that has to be done by the individual who wants to heal. You get out what you put in.3 -
sunnybeaches105 wrote: »I love how people will cherry pick a sentence, highlight it, ignore an additional comment about emotional needs, and then proceed to explain in detail how emotional needs may be a limitation. Lots of unnecessary hand wringing.
I have to say, I ignored your comment about emotional needs because I took it to be insincere and maybe a little snide. But after reading your other posts clarifying your thoughts I think I understand your position much better. Your posts have made me see things a little differently, so I sincerely thank you for that.
It seems to me that everyone here is arguing the same point but from their own perspectives, so maybe there appears to be disagreement where none actually exists.
I, for one, have enjoyed reading this whole discussion about shame, including the posts on the thread about fat acceptance that gave rise to this thread. Shame happens. It's a thing people feel; no reason not to have a discussion about it. I certainly wouldn't say that I'd "rather" talk about shame than overcome it and put in hard work, since I've already done the hard work and feel like you do, like losing weight is easy for me personally while recognizing that others put up a hard fight to score their victories. And I also agree it is frustrating to see people repeatedly hurt by their shame and not seeking help (I'm thinking of a specific good friend of mine, not generalizing or making straw men).
I can't say if shame played a role in my original decision to conscientiously lose weight (I just can't remember clearly if it did or not, it's been almost 10 years now). I know that even at my heaviest no one made a single remark to me about my size, not even after obvious weight gain. I hated how I looked and felt and how my clothes fit, and I felt a little panicky that I had done it to myself and wasn't sure how to fix it, but I can't recall if at any point I felt actual shame (as opposed to embarrassment, which I had a lot of). I'm just glad that I didn't have to deal with anyone else shaming me at that time, and I would be mortified if I were to cause someone else to feel shame.1 -
need to add pakiatani ppl0
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I wouldn't call what finally turned me around "shaming" so much as getting hate-beaten with words that I had been saying to myself forever, but had never heard from anyone else. Once I finally knew it wasn't all in my head, I knew I needed to fix it.
I know that I am in the small minority, but I will forever owe a debt to that verbal sadist. I doubt that he would even remember who I am if he ran into me today, but that's completely irrelevant.0 -
I think the biggest problem is that people misinterpret "fat acceptance" as actively wanting and causing oneself to be fat. In reality people are just trying to live life without feeling like they are worthless because of their weight. There is no need to feel ashamed of one's weight in order to lose it. From my personal experience, such thinking just makes the problem worse. It is demoralising rather than motivating. The only times I have been able to make any headway in weight loss have been when I was motivated by the positive.
It is a backwards and ridiculous notion that you can help people better themselves through ridicule and shaming. Support groups are a tried and true method of overcoming problems of all kinds for a good reason. People need to know they are not alone. Being a victim of fat shaming, or even seeing people like yourself suffering from it, (or worse still, seeing people who are much less heavy than yourself being treated badly and knowing/feeling that if they are "disgusting" then you must be positively inhuman) is very isolating and depressing and helps nobody.9 -
Like everything else I would imagine it helps some, hurts some and makes no difference whatsoever to others.
I have never had someone say anything negative about my weight but I doubt I would have felt shame if they did. Any shame I ever felt would have come from me.0 -
Publicly shaming someone is a form of positive punishment. Plenty of folks would tell you this is the least effective form of changing behavior.2
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Some great responses here. Negative shame, or using shame as a form of negativity, is profoundly unproductive, no question about it. It can not only prevent people from wanting to lose weight, but can cause mental health issues as well. Depression, "giving up", "why should I even bother?" are common consequences when someone is attacked with fat shaming.
What can help is constructive feedback. I like to tell people I train about the potential lifestyle that awaits them if they become slim - particularly in the dating scene, but never as a form of negativity toward their current body image. On the other end of the coin, full 'acceptance' can lead to one becoming sedentary since they don't perceive that anything needs to be changed. Embracing oneself is good, but being realistic and setting goals is also essential.
A balance is struck when you can encourage someone from a positive angle to lose weight, without them perceiving it negatively at all. Just from my personal experience, I've found this to be a hugely motivating factor for people I've dealt with. Show someone the grass is greener, keep it all positive with a clear pathway as to how they can get there, and great changes can happen.1 -
Feeling self-shame or being shamed?
Self-shame and self-esteem for me stems from being shamed.
For me I have severe chronic PTSD from extreme emotional abuse my toddler years into my 20's.
When someone shames me it triggers me and I go inside myself and shut down. I dissociate and just "go away".
I lose all motivation to do anything, find comfort in food and the depression gets so bad I pretty much do nothing but hide away and be immobile in my safe place.
Self-shame, not being actively shamed but feeling ashamed, at the gym keeps me from using certain machines and lifting most days.
I personally don't know anyone motivated by being shamed.2 -
Shame doesn't motivate me. It makes me want to hide away and be sad and not actively involved in life. Happiness motivates me. Feeling alive and zest for life and wanting more or to maintain that motivates me.4
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Besides, I used to love this song during cardio:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CsxaoXHe9Xc 0 -
Talked with my fitness group last night about shame. The overwhelming consensus was:
-Public shaming does not motivate weight loss.
-Self shame motivates one to go to group activities when there's a sense others are counting on you. Team sports. Accountability buddies at the gym. That kind of thing. You don't want to be the person that's letting the team down because you haven't been doing your training for 2 months.4 -
As a former obese woman, it definitely hinders.4
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Define shaming? If you mean bluntness, pointing out the obvious, etc then yes that can be very helpful. Back when I was obese my mom eventually spoke up and told me I'm fat, I need to lose weight, I'm setting myself up for health problems etc. She also said to look at how big my clothes are (were). And during dinner she said to stop eating like a "pig", followed by "no wonder you're gaining weight". It's been a few years and after making a lot of changes, I'm slim and lean and more active. I probably would not have noticed the gradual damage I was doing to myself back then had my mom continued to kiss my butt and sugar coat everything. I'm thankful she finally spoke up. Obesity is on the rise and a lot of them need reality checks. Just saying.3
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