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Vegan
Tobbydog11
Posts: 10 Member
in Debate Club
Does being vegan really help your health? What are your thoughts?
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Replies
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jeebieheebies wrote: »As people have said, being vegan doesn't automatically make you healthy. But here are some positive aspects that haven't been brought up yet:
-- Most processed food is off-limits. So way less temptations at the grocery store, running errands, at work/social gatherings, etc.
-- In regards to these unhealthy junk foods (I'd say ~90% of junk food is not vegan, even more if you don't eat palm oil), it isn't like dieting where you can have some once a week. Or you are constantly craving it and it looks soooo tasty, especially because it is forbidden. Since you are doing it for the animals, in theory, this food should not be very appealing. (A plant-based diet is for health only, a vegan diet is for ethical reasons).
-- In vegan circles, health is very "popular" or "trendy" so if you follow any vegan instagrammers, youtubers, facebook groups, etc, it will most likely overlap a lot with people who are fixated on optimizing their health. This fixation will seep into your consciousness and you'll be more likely to be introduced to new healthy foods, to think more about nutrition, to learn more, etc! It happened to me and it wasn't on purpose!
-- Similar to above, many vegan restaurants will also happen to be ~healthy~ restaurants with mostly whole food ingredients. (mostly serve smoothies, light sandwhiches, macro bowls, etc) Though, there are many new junk food/fast food vegan places popping up!
-- It is harder to overdo the calories if you are cooking your food at home. Cheese/dairy and meats are high in fat and many people following a SAD consume them in every meal. Being high in fat means that they are more calorie-dense for a smaller volume. So, it is easier to overeat if you habitually eat just a few oz too much. Eating a lot of vegetables (especially if not cooked), it will take longer to eat and so you are more likely to stop when full (or at least sooner) than eating a calorie dense meal where 10 bites can be 500 calories.
-- It takes less work, in my opinion, to have lower calories. If you omit most packaged food (all chips and cookies, vegan butter/cheese/meats), then you're left with grains, vegetables, fruits, legumes, seasonings, oil, and nuts/seeds. These are mostly so good for you, and you can basically put them in any combination and the meal will still be healthy! After omitting packaged foods in an omni diet, I feel like the cheese/red meat/butter/cream/yogurt will still hinder weight loss if you aren't counting calories and have a history of being overweight.
-- This is kind of vain, but also because vegans have a reputation of being skinny, I feel more of a social pressure to lose weight. Additionally, since I really really support the cause, I feel that if I want to be the best "ambassador" I can be, I should look my best, because that will reflect well on the lifestyle.
-- I know this will be controversial, but there IS evidence that many animal products are not good for us, at the MINIMUM not at the amount someone eating the SAD would eat (meat 3x a day, often in large portions). I think most people agree on this? Also, they aren't as nutrient-dense as fruits and vegetables, so by eating mozzarella or chicken, for example, you are crowding out some black beans and bell peppers.
Huh.. I could make the same points about a LCHF diet. The first four points, as well as number seven. And by replacing "animal products" with "sugars and grains" in your fifth, sixth, and eights points. Huh.... Seems pretty much anything is better than the standard American crap fest.
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graceyscholl wrote: »Veganism is by far healthier. How many vegans are found in hospitals? How many vegans have heart disease? Cancer? Etc.
In addition to physical health, veganism improved health in a stretch by ridding guilt of murder and torture.
India has some of the lowest rates of animal product consumption in the world, and some of the highest rates of diabetes and CVD. Plenty of vegans get sick - Steve Jobs and Paul McCartney are two notable ones that come to mind. Sorry, no one gets out alive.
As for guilt? Why would one feel guilty about eating the foods that optimize the health of their species? The only thing that separates us from other primates is the fact that we obtained a much needed (for brain development) source of dietary cholesterol. There are no plant based sources. That's why other primates (who eat little to no meat) are still swinging from trees and flinging crap at each other.
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tlflag1620 wrote: »graceyscholl wrote: »Veganism is by far healthier. How many vegans are found in hospitals? How many vegans have heart disease? Cancer? Etc.
In addition to physical health, veganism improved health in a stretch by ridding guilt of murder and torture.
India has some of the lowest rates of animal product consumption in the world, and some of the highest rates of diabetes and CVD. Plenty of vegans get sick - Steve Jobs and Paul McCartney are two notable ones that come to mind. Sorry, no one gets out alive.
As for guilt? Why would one feel guilty about eating the foods that optimize the health of their species? The only thing that separates us from other primates is the fact that we obtained a much needed (for brain development) source of dietary cholesterol. There are no plant based sources. That's why other primates (who eat little to no meat) are still swinging from trees and flinging crap at each other.
"That's why other primates (who eat little to no meat) are still swinging from trees and flinging crap at each other."
Best thing I have read... Ever!
I wish I could awesome and like you... But I can't. So I choose Awesome!1 -
There's some truth to the above point: http://www.npr.org/2010/08/02/128849908/food-for-thought-meat-based-diet-made-us-smarter
Of course the article also points out that cooking was another part of the equation. Interesting in light of the silly raw vegan diety B.S. that is floating around.2 -
angelinareean wrote: »Does being vegan really help your health? What are your thoughts?
That's like saying all vegans are the same, do the same things, eat the same things etc.3 -
angelinareean wrote: »Does being vegan really help your health? What are your thoughts?
Any diet is what you make of it...a vegan can have a highly nutritious diet or not...there's plenty of crap food completely lacking in nutrition that is perfectly vegan.
I have a friend who is vegetarian...she's at least 100 Lbs overweight...probably more like 150...she lives primarily off of frozen veggie burgers, potato chips, french fries, coca cola, and cookies.
I on the other hand am an omnivore...I eat about six servings of vegetables most days and a couple servings of fruit...I eat a lot of whole grains and legumes and whole food starches like potatoes and sweet potatoes...lots of lean sourced protein primarily from cod, salmon, and chicken and leaner cuts of pork and beef...I get most of my fats from things like avocados, nuts, and good cooking oils.
Who has the better diet, me or my vegetarian friend...your diet is what you make of it and can be as nutritious and healthy as you want it to be or not.2 -
graceyscholl wrote: »Veganism is by far healthier. How many vegans are found in hospitals? How many vegans have heart disease? Cancer? Etc.
In addition to physical health, veganism improved health in a stretch by ridding guilt of murder and torture.
Really? Do you have anything to back that up at all or are you just pulling *kitten* out of your *kitten*?3 -
Nine times out of ten, that vegan is going to be getting more nutrients and fibre than the meat-eater simply due to the fact that a lot of meat-eaters eat a SAD (Standard American Diet.)
So, statistically...yes, it would.
My ex sister in law must be the 1 out of 10. She lived exclusively on bean burritos, Camel cigarettes, and coffee strong enough to strip paint. All day, every day.1 -
cwolfman13 wrote: »graceyscholl wrote: »Veganism is by far healthier. How many vegans are found in hospitals? How many vegans have heart disease? Cancer? Etc.
In addition to physical health, veganism improved health in a stretch by ridding guilt of murder and torture.
Really? Do you have anything to back that up at all or are you just pulling *kitten* out of your *kitten*?
^^^ This post seems to support this post:tlflag1620 wrote: »graceyscholl wrote: »Veganism is by far healthier. How many vegans are found in hospitals? How many vegans have heart disease? Cancer? Etc.
In addition to physical health, veganism improved health in a stretch by ridding guilt of murder and torture.
India has some of the lowest rates of animal product consumption in the world, and some of the highest rates of diabetes and CVD. Plenty of vegans get sick - Steve Jobs and Paul McCartney are two notable ones that come to mind. Sorry, no one gets out alive.
As for guilt? Why would one feel guilty about eating the foods that optimize the health of their species? The only thing that separates us from other primates is the fact that we obtained a much needed (for brain development) source of dietary cholesterol. There are no plant based sources. That's why other primates (who eat little to no meat) are still swinging from trees and flinging crap at each other.
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tlflag1620 wrote: »jeebieheebies wrote: »As people have said, being vegan doesn't automatically make you healthy. But here are some positive aspects that haven't been brought up yet:
-- Most processed food is off-limits. So way less temptations at the grocery store, running errands, at work/social gatherings, etc.
-- In regards to these unhealthy junk foods (I'd say ~90% of junk food is not vegan, even more if you don't eat palm oil), it isn't like dieting where you can have some once a week. Or you are constantly craving it and it looks soooo tasty, especially because it is forbidden. Since you are doing it for the animals, in theory, this food should not be very appealing. (A plant-based diet is for health only, a vegan diet is for ethical reasons).
-- In vegan circles, health is very "popular" or "trendy" so if you follow any vegan instagrammers, youtubers, facebook groups, etc, it will most likely overlap a lot with people who are fixated on optimizing their health. This fixation will seep into your consciousness and you'll be more likely to be introduced to new healthy foods, to think more about nutrition, to learn more, etc! It happened to me and it wasn't on purpose!
-- Similar to above, many vegan restaurants will also happen to be ~healthy~ restaurants with mostly whole food ingredients. (mostly serve smoothies, light sandwhiches, macro bowls, etc) Though, there are many new junk food/fast food vegan places popping up!
-- It is harder to overdo the calories if you are cooking your food at home. Cheese/dairy and meats are high in fat and many people following a SAD consume them in every meal. Being high in fat means that they are more calorie-dense for a smaller volume. So, it is easier to overeat if you habitually eat just a few oz too much. Eating a lot of vegetables (especially if not cooked), it will take longer to eat and so you are more likely to stop when full (or at least sooner) than eating a calorie dense meal where 10 bites can be 500 calories.
-- It takes less work, in my opinion, to have lower calories. If you omit most packaged food (all chips and cookies, vegan butter/cheese/meats), then you're left with grains, vegetables, fruits, legumes, seasonings, oil, and nuts/seeds. These are mostly so good for you, and you can basically put them in any combination and the meal will still be healthy! After omitting packaged foods in an omni diet, I feel like the cheese/red meat/butter/cream/yogurt will still hinder weight loss if you aren't counting calories and have a history of being overweight.
-- This is kind of vain, but also because vegans have a reputation of being skinny, I feel more of a social pressure to lose weight. Additionally, since I really really support the cause, I feel that if I want to be the best "ambassador" I can be, I should look my best, because that will reflect well on the lifestyle.
-- I know this will be controversial, but there IS evidence that many animal products are not good for us, at the MINIMUM not at the amount someone eating the SAD would eat (meat 3x a day, often in large portions). I think most people agree on this? Also, they aren't as nutrient-dense as fruits and vegetables, so by eating mozzarella or chicken, for example, you are crowding out some black beans and bell peppers.
Huh.. I could make the same points about a LCHF diet. The first four points, as well as number seven. And by replacing "animal products" with "sugars and grains" in your fifth, sixth, and eights points. Huh.... Seems pretty much anything is better than the standard American crap fest.
Good point! Any special attention to your diet (most people on this website) will be better off than just taking whatever off the shelves looks tasty and zombie-ing their way through nutrition. Though I don't know, are there LCHF restaurants in regards to #4?
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jeebieheebies wrote: »tlflag1620 wrote: »jeebieheebies wrote: »As people have said, being vegan doesn't automatically make you healthy. But here are some positive aspects that haven't been brought up yet:
-- Most processed food is off-limits. So way less temptations at the grocery store, running errands, at work/social gatherings, etc.
-- In regards to these unhealthy junk foods (I'd say ~90% of junk food is not vegan, even more if you don't eat palm oil), it isn't like dieting where you can have some once a week. Or you are constantly craving it and it looks soooo tasty, especially because it is forbidden. Since you are doing it for the animals, in theory, this food should not be very appealing. (A plant-based diet is for health only, a vegan diet is for ethical reasons).
-- In vegan circles, health is very "popular" or "trendy" so if you follow any vegan instagrammers, youtubers, facebook groups, etc, it will most likely overlap a lot with people who are fixated on optimizing their health. This fixation will seep into your consciousness and you'll be more likely to be introduced to new healthy foods, to think more about nutrition, to learn more, etc! It happened to me and it wasn't on purpose!
-- Similar to above, many vegan restaurants will also happen to be ~healthy~ restaurants with mostly whole food ingredients. (mostly serve smoothies, light sandwhiches, macro bowls, etc) Though, there are many new junk food/fast food vegan places popping up!
-- It is harder to overdo the calories if you are cooking your food at home. Cheese/dairy and meats are high in fat and many people following a SAD consume them in every meal. Being high in fat means that they are more calorie-dense for a smaller volume. So, it is easier to overeat if you habitually eat just a few oz too much. Eating a lot of vegetables (especially if not cooked), it will take longer to eat and so you are more likely to stop when full (or at least sooner) than eating a calorie dense meal where 10 bites can be 500 calories.
-- It takes less work, in my opinion, to have lower calories. If you omit most packaged food (all chips and cookies, vegan butter/cheese/meats), then you're left with grains, vegetables, fruits, legumes, seasonings, oil, and nuts/seeds. These are mostly so good for you, and you can basically put them in any combination and the meal will still be healthy! After omitting packaged foods in an omni diet, I feel like the cheese/red meat/butter/cream/yogurt will still hinder weight loss if you aren't counting calories and have a history of being overweight.
-- This is kind of vain, but also because vegans have a reputation of being skinny, I feel more of a social pressure to lose weight. Additionally, since I really really support the cause, I feel that if I want to be the best "ambassador" I can be, I should look my best, because that will reflect well on the lifestyle.
-- I know this will be controversial, but there IS evidence that many animal products are not good for us, at the MINIMUM not at the amount someone eating the SAD would eat (meat 3x a day, often in large portions). I think most people agree on this? Also, they aren't as nutrient-dense as fruits and vegetables, so by eating mozzarella or chicken, for example, you are crowding out some black beans and bell peppers.
Huh.. I could make the same points about a LCHF diet. The first four points, as well as number seven. And by replacing "animal products" with "sugars and grains" in your fifth, sixth, and eights points. Huh.... Seems pretty much anything is better than the standard American crap fest.
Good point! Any special attention to your diet (most people on this website) will be better off than just taking whatever off the shelves looks tasty and zombie-ing their way through nutrition. Though I don't know, are there LCHF restaurants in regards to #4?
I think in some larger cities there are "paleo" restaraunts (which isn't necessarily LC, but does eliminate grains and added sugars, making it lowER carb than most other options) which would include very healthy food options and it would be easy to eat LCHF while dining there. Really, almost any restaraunt menu is easily modified to be LCHF friendly (not necessarily so for vegans).
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jeebieheebies wrote: »tlflag1620 wrote: »jeebieheebies wrote: »As people have said, being vegan doesn't automatically make you healthy. But here are some positive aspects that haven't been brought up yet:
-- Most processed food is off-limits. So way less temptations at the grocery store, running errands, at work/social gatherings, etc.
-- In regards to these unhealthy junk foods (I'd say ~90% of junk food is not vegan, even more if you don't eat palm oil), it isn't like dieting where you can have some once a week. Or you are constantly craving it and it looks soooo tasty, especially because it is forbidden. Since you are doing it for the animals, in theory, this food should not be very appealing. (A plant-based diet is for health only, a vegan diet is for ethical reasons).
-- In vegan circles, health is very "popular" or "trendy" so if you follow any vegan instagrammers, youtubers, facebook groups, etc, it will most likely overlap a lot with people who are fixated on optimizing their health. This fixation will seep into your consciousness and you'll be more likely to be introduced to new healthy foods, to think more about nutrition, to learn more, etc! It happened to me and it wasn't on purpose!
-- Similar to above, many vegan restaurants will also happen to be ~healthy~ restaurants with mostly whole food ingredients. (mostly serve smoothies, light sandwhiches, macro bowls, etc) Though, there are many new junk food/fast food vegan places popping up!
-- It is harder to overdo the calories if you are cooking your food at home. Cheese/dairy and meats are high in fat and many people following a SAD consume them in every meal. Being high in fat means that they are more calorie-dense for a smaller volume. So, it is easier to overeat if you habitually eat just a few oz too much. Eating a lot of vegetables (especially if not cooked), it will take longer to eat and so you are more likely to stop when full (or at least sooner) than eating a calorie dense meal where 10 bites can be 500 calories.
-- It takes less work, in my opinion, to have lower calories. If you omit most packaged food (all chips and cookies, vegan butter/cheese/meats), then you're left with grains, vegetables, fruits, legumes, seasonings, oil, and nuts/seeds. These are mostly so good for you, and you can basically put them in any combination and the meal will still be healthy! After omitting packaged foods in an omni diet, I feel like the cheese/red meat/butter/cream/yogurt will still hinder weight loss if you aren't counting calories and have a history of being overweight.
-- This is kind of vain, but also because vegans have a reputation of being skinny, I feel more of a social pressure to lose weight. Additionally, since I really really support the cause, I feel that if I want to be the best "ambassador" I can be, I should look my best, because that will reflect well on the lifestyle.
-- I know this will be controversial, but there IS evidence that many animal products are not good for us, at the MINIMUM not at the amount someone eating the SAD would eat (meat 3x a day, often in large portions). I think most people agree on this? Also, they aren't as nutrient-dense as fruits and vegetables, so by eating mozzarella or chicken, for example, you are crowding out some black beans and bell peppers.
Huh.. I could make the same points about a LCHF diet. The first four points, as well as number seven. And by replacing "animal products" with "sugars and grains" in your fifth, sixth, and eights points. Huh.... Seems pretty much anything is better than the standard American crap fest.
Good point! Any special attention to your diet (most people on this website) will be better off than just taking whatever off the shelves looks tasty and zombie-ing their way through nutrition. Though I don't know, are there LCHF restaurants in regards to #4?
There are LCHF restaurants everywhere. They're called steakhouses. Just tell them to keep their sides away from your delicious ribeye and buttered lobster.
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sunnybeaches105 wrote: »No. Any diet that requires supplementation is less than optimal.
Okay but like veganism doesn't require supplements? You can get every vitamin, mineral, nutrient, and everything from a vegan diet as long as it's a real diet . Like if you only eat tofu burgers and bread and pasta, obviously you aren't eating well and aren't getting what you need. But if you actually eat well and honestly, be a real vegan, supplements are unnecessary. Also, how many non-vegans are told by their doctors, friends, and the media that they need to take a supplement? Whether it's a daily multivitamin or a specific supplement, every body is different and has different needs, and no matter what diet or lifestyle (because veganism is more than a diet) someone follows.
And your comment about the lack of muscle mass on vegans, why not check out how many vegan body builders there are since there's quite a few of them.
I'll end this by saying that yes, generally, vegan diets and lifestyles are very very healthy. Some non-vegan and non-vegetarian diets are also very very healthy. Not all vegans are healthy, not all non-vegans are unhealthy. As stated above, every body is different and requires different things.3 -
jainasiemienkowicz wrote: »sunnybeaches105 wrote: »No. Any diet that requires supplementation is less than optimal.
Okay but like veganism doesn't require supplements? You can get every vitamin, mineral, nutrient, and everything from a vegan diet as long as it's a real diet . Like if you only eat tofu burgers and bread and pasta, obviously you aren't eating well and aren't getting what you need. But if you actually eat well and honestly, be a real vegan, supplements are unnecessary. Also, how many non-vegans are told by their doctors, friends, and the media that they need to take a supplement? Whether it's a daily multivitamin or a specific supplement, every body is different and has different needs, and no matter what diet or lifestyle (because veganism is more than a diet) someone follows.
And your comment about the lack of muscle mass on vegans, why not check out how many vegan body builders there are since there's quite a few of them.
I'll end this by saying that yes, generally, vegan diets and lifestyles are very very healthy. Some non-vegan and non-vegetarian diets are also very very healthy. Not all vegans are healthy, not all non-vegans are unhealthy. As stated above, every body is different and requires different things.
B12
ETA: this is from a vegan website and they're being responsible by pointing this out. As I said before, one needs to be clear and honest with one's own rationale for deciding to make such a big decision as becoming vegan.
https://www.vegansociety.com/resources/nutrition-and-health/vitamins-minerals-and-nutrients/vitamin-b12-your-key-facts/what-every-vegan-should-know-about-vitamin-b12
As for being different, there is some variance but not so much as to support taking risks with one's health.4 -
jainasiemienkowicz wrote: »sunnybeaches105 wrote: »No. Any diet that requires supplementation is less than optimal.
Okay but like veganism doesn't require supplements? You can get every vitamin, mineral, nutrient, and everything from a vegan diet as long as it's a real diet . Like if you only eat tofu burgers and bread and pasta, obviously you aren't eating well and aren't getting what you need. But if you actually eat well and honestly, be a real vegan, supplements are unnecessary. Also, how many non-vegans are told by their doctors, friends, and the media that they need to take a supplement? Whether it's a daily multivitamin or a specific supplement, every body is different and has different needs, and no matter what diet or lifestyle (because veganism is more than a diet) someone follows.
And your comment about the lack of muscle mass on vegans, why not check out how many vegan body builders there are since there's quite a few of them.
I'll end this by saying that yes, generally, vegan diets and lifestyles are very very healthy. Some non-vegan and non-vegetarian diets are also very very healthy. Not all vegans are healthy, not all non-vegans are unhealthy. As stated above, every body is different and requires different things.
I've been vegan for ten years and I'm very pro-vegan. B12 supplementation (or eating fortified foods) is required for vegans, as there are no plant sources of B12.
Being a "real vegan" (whatever that means) won't magically create B12 in plant foods. It's totally possible to be happy and healthy as a vegan, but it's also important that we stay grounded in reality.10 -
jainasiemienkowicz wrote: »sunnybeaches105 wrote: »No. Any diet that requires supplementation is less than optimal.
Okay but like veganism doesn't require supplements? You can get every vitamin, mineral, nutrient, and everything from a vegan diet as long as it's a real diet . Like if you only eat tofu burgers and bread and pasta, obviously you aren't eating well and aren't getting what you need. But if you actually eat well and honestly, be a real vegan, supplements are unnecessary. Also, how many non-vegans are told by their doctors, friends, and the media that they need to take a supplement? Whether it's a daily multivitamin or a specific supplement, every body is different and has different needs, and no matter what diet or lifestyle (because veganism is more than a diet) someone follows.
And your comment about the lack of muscle mass on vegans, why not check out how many vegan body builders there are since there's quite a few of them.
I'll end this by saying that yes, generally, vegan diets and lifestyles are very very healthy. Some non-vegan and non-vegetarian diets are also very very healthy. Not all vegans are healthy, not all non-vegans are unhealthy. As stated above, every body is different and requires different things.
B12 is needed. You are wrong on that account.0 -
Most of the vegans I know are nuts (drum crash)
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johnnylakis wrote: »Most of the vegans I know are nuts (drum crash)
That's probably just the vegans you've met. Most of the vegans I know are all right.2 -
Most of the vegans I know are fruity.3
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johnnylakis wrote: »Most of the vegans I know are nuts (drum crash)
Correlation doesn't equal causation. Maybe they are nuts because they know you, they just happen to be vegan. :laugh:
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graceyscholl wrote: »Veganism is by far healthier. How many vegans are found in hospitals?
I have no idea. I bet you don't, either. Last time I was in the hospital it was because I got hit by a car while riding a bike. As far as I can remember (and I was pretty messed up at the time) nobody asked me about my diet. Maybe people saw me in the hospital and assumed I must eat cheese because I was there?9 -
NorthCascades wrote: »graceyscholl wrote: »Veganism is by far healthier. How many vegans are found in hospitals?
I have no idea. I bet you don't, either. Last time I was in the hospital it was because I got hit by a car while riding a bike. As far as I can remember (and I was pretty messed up at the time) nobody asked me about my diet. Maybe people saw me in the hospital and assumed I must eat cheese because I was there?
Clearly a Vegan would never be so irresponsible as to do anything like ride a bike, therefore you had to be one among the animal consumers.0 -
janejellyroll wrote: »I've been vegan for ten years and I'm very pro-vegan. B12 supplementation (or eating fortified foods) is required for vegans, as there are no plant sources of B12.
Being a "real vegan" (whatever that means) won't magically create B12 in plant foods. It's totally possible to be happy and healthy as a vegan, but it's also important that we stay grounded in reality.
@janejellyroll -
What all do you supplement your vegan diet with? Any timing issues?
(I was listening to a Loren Cordain lecture just yesterday, and he rattled off half a dozen examples of nutrients vegans are likely to be deficient in. Now I'm curious how reality-based vegans handle this.)
Thx.
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jeebieheebies wrote: »-- This is kind of vain, but also because vegans have a reputation of being skinny, I feel more of a social pressure to lose weight. Additionally, since I really really support the cause, I feel that if I want to be the best "ambassador" I can be, I should look my best, because that will reflect well on the lifestyle.
--
That may be the reputation, but the reality is vegans are no skinnier than meat eaters if they don't watch their caloric intake. I know so pretty hefty vegans. There are 165 calories in 100g of skinless chicken breast. There are 553 calories in 100g of cashews....
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