I'm losing my mind...:(
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zonkiethegreat wrote: »RavenLibra wrote: »Stay out of Restaurants for a month, weigh and log every gram of what you eat for that month... OR next time you are at a restaurant order your meal and "guesstimate" the calories THEN buy the same meal and take it home. and conduct an autopsy. weigh and calculate the calories for real. Secondly, do you log alcohol? booze can be the hidden culprit in lots of diet frustrations... the carbs in booze are off the chart. So... your choice... continue to look for the phantom reasons or "man up" and have that hard look in the mirror.
When I go out to eat, if it's a restaurant with nutrition info I go by that and log it. If it's a place that doesn't have nutrition info, I then have to guesstimate based on comparable restaurants that do have nutrition info OR I break down the food I ate into MFP. As for alcohol I don't drink, like very very rarely, maybe one or two glasses of wine a MONTH. I'm very very strict about beverages, I don't drink booze and I don't drink soda, just plain boring water or La Croix sparkling water.
That's not measuring your food. I know it feels like it is, but it's not.3 -
leejoyce31 wrote: »cerise_noir wrote: »
Yeah, but do you weigh every single solid and semi solid foods? Do you log cooking oils, salad dressings, fruit and veg? Do you weigh very single recipe ingredient on a digital scale and log it into the recipe builder? Do you only use cups/spoons for liquids only? Do you log all your foods all the time? Do you log tastes, bites and licks? Do you choose accurate database entries that reflect the packaging of the food? Do you weigh pre-weighed and pre-packaged food?zonkiethegreat wrote: »I weigh all food that I cook, and when I eat out I have to eyeball it or take note of the chain I'm eating at. Honestly, a cheat day for me is in the 1800-2000 range. I also do not overestimate my calorie burn, that is for SURE. At Orange Theory we use heart rate monitors and even though they say I burn 416 calories in 45 minutes, I always log it as about 350.
Can you please open your diary so that we can take a look?
Oh dear, if I had to do all that, I would have not lost weight. I lost over 80 pounds not measuring. However, now that I am in maintenance, I weigh everything with a food scale using grams, except my butter cooking spray.
Now that I am maintaining, I am a huge proponent of measuring but people can lose without it. With that said, if she does not have a medical issue, I would agree that she is eating too much and not accurately counting calories.
Weighing every little thing we eat is definitely not a prerequisite for losing weight, millions of people lose weight without weighing and logging. However if someone has plateaued/stalled or is gaining it would be the very first thing i'd look into doing.4 -
gomisskellygo wrote: »OP: I feel you. I have been going through the same thing for years. All of my thyroid tests have come back within the normal range. I, like you, am probably eating more than I think. BUT, I am still eating much LESS than I was before and working out much MORE than ever. There should be a deficit regardless. I have been lifting 3 times a week and doing met con 2x a week and hiking a 3,000-4,000 foot mountain almost every weekend! My journal is open but I haven't really logged correctly in awhile. I needed a "head break". Enjoy my Jane's Addiction concert beer binge entry from the other day!
I am going to be vigilant with my weighing and see what happens in the next month.
TLDR: I can relate.
SAME HERE. I used to hate exercising, but then on June 11, 2015 I joined Orange Theory and even though I haven't lost weight, I feel 10X better after each workout. So I've been more active physically then I have ever been in my entire life. The problem is that I also weigh more than I ever have.
Between Fitbit, Myfitnesspal and my short lived run with WW app, I feel like jumping off the metaphorical cliff sometimes. But I don't want to get worse, so I won't give up.
As for everyone asking me about HOW I measure everything when I cook. I use an electric scale, and measuring devices like measuring cups and spoons etc. I even have a special measuring cup just for liquids. So please, stop asking about how I measure, I know how much I'm eating when I'm home. When I go out to eat, I skip rice, I skip potatoes, and bread. I usually will eat a protein like steak or grilled chicken with veggies or salad or sweet potato. I avoid fried food completely, and if I'm really jonesing for dessert I either order a cappuccino or I wait till I get home and have a sugar free jello or sugar free pudding. That's about it. I don't eat fast food either, and I avoid eating sandwiches for lunches.
My days look something like this:
Breakfast - 2 scrambled eggs with 1/4 cup of cheese
Lunch - I go to Orange Theory often during my lunch break (about 3x a week) and then I have one slice of natures own double fiber bread with unsalted natural peanut butter (1 tablespoon) and one large banana
Snacks- a low fat cheese stick or almonds and a sugar free cherry jello
Dinner - this varies and depends on whether I go out or not. But usually it's protein with a side of veggies or black beans. If I eat at home it's usually broiled salmon with 2 tablespoons of lemon butter sauce baked on top and a side of French green beans and a few slices of cut up sweet potato (baked). For dessert I'll have a sugar free chocolate Popsicle or pudding or jello.
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You are eating than you think. You cannot defy science!6
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leejoyce31 wrote: »cerise_noir wrote: »
Yeah, but do you weigh every single solid and semi solid foods? Do you log cooking oils, salad dressings, fruit and veg? Do you weigh very single recipe ingredient on a digital scale and log it into the recipe builder? Do you only use cups/spoons for liquids only? Do you log all your foods all the time? Do you log tastes, bites and licks? Do you choose accurate database entries that reflect the packaging of the food? Do you weigh pre-weighed and pre-packaged food?zonkiethegreat wrote: »I weigh all food that I cook, and when I eat out I have to eyeball it or take note of the chain I'm eating at. Honestly, a cheat day for me is in the 1800-2000 range. I also do not overestimate my calorie burn, that is for SURE. At Orange Theory we use heart rate monitors and even though they say I burn 416 calories in 45 minutes, I always log it as about 350.
Can you please open your diary so that we can take a look?
Oh dear, if I had to do all that, I would have not lost weight. I lost over 80 pounds not measuring. However, now that I am in maintenance, I weigh everything with a food scale using grams, except my butter cooking spray.
Now that I am maintaining, I am a huge proponent of measuring but people can lose without it. With that said, if she does not have a medical issue, I would agree that she is eating too much and not accurately counting calories.
Of course people can lose without measuring. Nobody has stated otherwise. I lost 30 lbs that way. But then I stopped losing and needed to be more accurate. That's what the OP needs to do or she just needs to eat less, period.
I never said anyone stated otherwise.
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leejoyce31 wrote: »cerise_noir wrote: »
Yeah, but do you weigh every single solid and semi solid foods? Do you log cooking oils, salad dressings, fruit and veg? Do you weigh very single recipe ingredient on a digital scale and log it into the recipe builder? Do you only use cups/spoons for liquids only? Do you log all your foods all the time? Do you log tastes, bites and licks? Do you choose accurate database entries that reflect the packaging of the food? Do you weigh pre-weighed and pre-packaged food?zonkiethegreat wrote: »I weigh all food that I cook, and when I eat out I have to eyeball it or take note of the chain I'm eating at. Honestly, a cheat day for me is in the 1800-2000 range. I also do not overestimate my calorie burn, that is for SURE. At Orange Theory we use heart rate monitors and even though they say I burn 416 calories in 45 minutes, I always log it as about 350.
Can you please open your diary so that we can take a look?
Oh dear, if I had to do all that, I would have not lost weight. I lost over 80 pounds not measuring. However, now that I am in maintenance, I weigh everything with a food scale using grams, except my butter cooking spray.
Now that I am maintaining, I am a huge proponent of measuring but people can lose without it. With that said, if she does not have a medical issue, I would agree that she is eating too much and not accurately counting calories.
Of course people can lose without measuring. Nobody has stated otherwise. I lost 30 lbs that way. But then I stopped losing and needed to be more accurate. That's what the OP needs to do or she just needs to eat less, period.
I was speaking of my own personal experience saying that I would not have been able to do so. Great that you did. Good for you. 0 -
Christine_72 wrote: »leejoyce31 wrote: »cerise_noir wrote: »
Yeah, but do you weigh every single solid and semi solid foods? Do you log cooking oils, salad dressings, fruit and veg? Do you weigh very single recipe ingredient on a digital scale and log it into the recipe builder? Do you only use cups/spoons for liquids only? Do you log all your foods all the time? Do you log tastes, bites and licks? Do you choose accurate database entries that reflect the packaging of the food? Do you weigh pre-weighed and pre-packaged food?zonkiethegreat wrote: »I weigh all food that I cook, and when I eat out I have to eyeball it or take note of the chain I'm eating at. Honestly, a cheat day for me is in the 1800-2000 range. I also do not overestimate my calorie burn, that is for SURE. At Orange Theory we use heart rate monitors and even though they say I burn 416 calories in 45 minutes, I always log it as about 350.
Can you please open your diary so that we can take a look?
Oh dear, if I had to do all that, I would have not lost weight. I lost over 80 pounds not measuring. However, now that I am in maintenance, I weigh everything with a food scale using grams, except my butter cooking spray.
Now that I am maintaining, I am a huge proponent of measuring but people can lose without it. With that said, if she does not have a medical issue, I would agree that she is eating too much and not accurately counting calories.
Weighing every little thing we eat is definitely not a prerequisite for losing weight, millions of people lose weight without weighing and logging. However if someone has plateaued/stalled or is gaining it would be the very first thing i'd look into doing.
I understand. I was only saying that I could not do that. Just speaking about my own personal experience. I know that I couldn't measure all that. Not discouraging anyone from taking the posters advice.
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I've lost almost 30 pounds without measuring but if I came to a point where I couldn't, I'd buy a scale.0
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OP, what are you looking for here? Look at this from the outside perspective of someone reading your thread and your defense of your eating habits - people come on here literally every day listing everything they eat, underestimating their intake, and then disappear when they're told how they're underestimating. Or they conveniently leave out that their deficit is about 200 a day and then on the weekends they blow through it. Or they figure the 3-4 spoonfuls of food they eat while cooking each meal every day don't matter.
For example - 1/4 cup cheese. Why are you using cup measures? Why aren't you weighing your cheese? Are you weighing the eggs instead of using "1 egg" entries? Are you weighing your peanut butter, or just using the less accurate tablespoon measurement? Do you weigh the banana?
You need to step back for a minute and think about what would be the response you want from this thread. Are you looking for help as to why you're stalling, or are you just looking for validation that it's not your fault?23 -
I don't want to profess to know everything or anything... and like they say opinions are like a holes... everyone has one... so let me tell you what worked for me. A year ago I was T2 Diabetic... the doctor started throwing meds at me... I had a " degenerative disc " problem in my back that would keep me out of work for weeks at a time... I made some changes... I stopped listening to the docs and started listening to my body ( and read everything on nutrition I could find ). I changed my diet and started walking, then riding, and finally running... I am now running half marathons ( against the doctors advice ) in under 2 hours and I have never felt better. Remember doctors only exist to create clients - I know that sounds extreme but ultimately if a doctor " cures " your problem there is no source of income for him... so the doctor prescribes this pill which fixes one problem but creates another one... so he prescribes another which solves that problem but creates another one... and the cycle continues. Bottom line is I switched to a whole food / plant based diet and am off ALL meds and have never felt better, I haven't even had a headache in as long as I can remember. Do the research and decide for yourself but try and break the cycle... if someone had told me a year and 100lbs ago that I would be eating plants ( and enjoying it ) AND running 13.1 miles for fun - I would have told them they had lost their damn mind... but there comes a time when you are sick and tired of being sick and tired. Best of luck to you! If you have any questions I am always available.3
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zonkiethegreat wrote: »
As for everyone asking me about HOW I measure everything when I cook. I use an electric scale, and measuring devices like measuring cups and spoons etc. I even have a special measuring cup just for liquids. So please, stop asking about how I measure, I know how much I'm eating when I'm home.
I'm glad that you have a special measuring cup for liquids... because measuring cups are only for liquids. They are for measuring volume. To measure weight of solid food, a food scale is required.
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zonkiethegreat wrote: »gomisskellygo wrote: »OP: I feel you. I have been going through the same thing for years. All of my thyroid tests have come back within the normal range. I, like you, am probably eating more than I think. BUT, I am still eating much LESS than I was before and working out much MORE than ever. There should be a deficit regardless. I have been lifting 3 times a week and doing met con 2x a week and hiking a 3,000-4,000 foot mountain almost every weekend! My journal is open but I haven't really logged correctly in awhile. I needed a "head break". Enjoy my Jane's Addiction concert beer binge entry from the other day!
I am going to be vigilant with my weighing and see what happens in the next month.
TLDR: I can relate.
SAME HERE. I used to hate exercising, but then on June 11, 2015 I joined Orange Theory and even though I haven't lost weight, I feel 10X better after each workout. So I've been more active physically then I have ever been in my entire life. The problem is that I also weigh more than I ever have.
Between Fitbit, Myfitnesspal and my short lived run with WW app, I feel like jumping off the metaphorical cliff sometimes. But I don't want to get worse, so I won't give up.
As for everyone asking me about HOW I measure everything when I cook. I use an electric scale, and measuring devices like measuring cups and spoons etc. I even have a special measuring cup just for liquids. So please, stop asking about how I measure, I know how much I'm eating when I'm home. When I go out to eat, I skip rice, I skip potatoes, and bread. I usually will eat a protein like steak or grilled chicken with veggies or salad or sweet potato. I avoid fried food completely, and if I'm really jonesing for dessert I either order a cappuccino or I wait till I get home and have a sugar free jello or sugar free pudding. That's about it. I don't eat fast food either, and I avoid eating sandwiches for lunches.
My days look something like this:
Breakfast - 2 scrambled eggs with 1/4 cup of cheese
Lunch - I go to Orange Theory often during my lunch break (about 3x a week) and then I have one slice of natures own double fiber bread with unsalted natural peanut butter (1 tablespoon) and one large banana
Snacks- a low fat cheese stick or almonds and a sugar free cherry jello
Dinner - this varies and depends on whether I go out or not. But usually it's protein with a side of veggies or black beans. If I eat at home it's usually broiled salmon with 2 tablespoons of lemon butter sauce baked on top and a side of French green beans and a few slices of cut up sweet potato (baked). For dessert I'll have a sugar free chocolate Popsicle or pudding or jello.
OP, the point is, it doesn't matter WHAT you are eating, it matters how many calories you are eating. If you aren't losing weight, you are eating too much.
I was sure I was eating @ 1400 cals a day - I knew what a portion size looks like, I used measuring cups, I was making smart choices. In desperation, I bought a food scale and used it for every single thing I ate, even packaged foods, and I was shocked! I was eating more like 1700-1900 calories a day.
You have gotten good advice, but if it's not what you wanted to hear, there isn't much else we can suggest. If you are using measuring cups for any non-liquids, you are probably not getting accurate numbers. If you are trusting that if the label says there is one serving in the package, there is exactly one serving in the package without weighing it, you are probably not getting accurate numbers. Some people are great at visualizing portions and others aren't, and you won't know which one you are until you test yourself. I found out I wasn't!
I can tell you the cheese, peanut butter, almonds, and banana are all foods that could easily have way more calories than you think if you aren't weighing them.
As others have said, perhaps you can make some changes like bringing food with you on your trips or going to the grocery store at your destination rather than eating at restaurants? Not sure what you wanted to hear, but weight loss comes down to calories in less than calories out. I hope you figure out what you need to do to make progress, best of luck.9 -
zonkiethegreat wrote: »I usually will eat a protein like steak or grilled chicken with veggies or salad or sweet potato. I avoid fried food completely, and if I'm really jonesing for dessert I either order a cappuccino or I wait till I get home and have a sugar free jello or sugar free pudding. That's about it. I don't eat fast food either, and I avoid eating sandwiches for lunches.
My days look something like this:
Breakfast - 2 scrambled eggs with 1/4 cup of cheese
Lunch - I go to Orange Theory often during my lunch break (about 3x a week) and then I have one slice of natures own double fiber bread with unsalted natural peanut butter (1 tablespoon) and one large banana
Snacks- a low fat cheese stick or almonds and a sugar free cherry jello
Dinner - this varies and depends on whether I go out or not. But usually it's protein with a side of veggies or black beans. If I eat at home it's usually broiled salmon with 2 tablespoons of lemon butter sauce baked on top and a side of French green beans and a few slices of cut up sweet potato (baked). For dessert I'll have a sugar free chocolate Popsicle or pudding or jello.
I hate to say it, because I usually look for other than the obvious, but you are not totally measuring your food and you're, perhaps, making sub-optimal choices from the point of view of satiety.
How much dressing is in your salad?
Do you think that sweet potatoes have less calories than regular potatoes? What oil, butter, or other things are they prepared with if they are not steamed or boiled?
Do you use margarine, butter, or oil to scramble your eggs? How many grams is your 1/4 cup of cheese? Where are your green peppers, or mushrooms, or onions, or other vegetables that would add bulk to your scrambled eggs without adding a lot of calories?
Is your easily 350 Cal to 450 Cal lunch an optimal lunch? 75-100 Cal depending on weight for your bread, 100-200 Cal depending on weight because especially for peanut butter tablespoons just don't cut it!, and 150 Cal possibly for a real large banana?
is that a better deal than a chicken and veggies stir fry? Or a fish fillet and frozen veggies you nuked? Or a tub of Source 0% yogurt with bran buds and some fruit soaking in it?
And almonds and string cheese? Again... how many grams?
Given your eating out and the non dissecting of your food in detail chances are that you only need to look at what and how much you eat to discover the estimation issue.
When eating out is an exception... then eat whatever you feel like and enjoy.
When eating out is your way of life, it is time to specify to the restaurant staff exactly what you want and how you want it cooked.
I enjoy eating ethnic food. Yes, I often eat much plainer western food when I go out because it is easier to estimate.
And I often custom order: veggies boiled with no butter or margarine. Meat grilled and cooked with minimal amount of oil or seasoning please. I ordered plain chicken and broccoli with no sauce at all at a Chinese restaurant (not super tasty
)
Fast food is often a less caloric option than a restaurant.
A mediterannean protein salad at Wendy's is 450 Cal.
A chilli large or small is under 250.
With a baked potato you can have a substantial meal (chili+baked pot) for under 500 (lots of sodium).
A McDouble is 370.
Re-think your approach and concentrate on figuring out the calories you're eating and how to get the best bang for your buck.
You like sugar free puddings? Have a six pack of them for lunch (or better yet a six pack of sugar free yogurt cause more protein).
Sorry for the ramble 12 -
leejoyce31 wrote: »Christine_72 wrote: »leejoyce31 wrote: »cerise_noir wrote: »
Yeah, but do you weigh every single solid and semi solid foods? Do you log cooking oils, salad dressings, fruit and veg? Do you weigh very single recipe ingredient on a digital scale and log it into the recipe builder? Do you only use cups/spoons for liquids only? Do you log all your foods all the time? Do you log tastes, bites and licks? Do you choose accurate database entries that reflect the packaging of the food? Do you weigh pre-weighed and pre-packaged food?zonkiethegreat wrote: »I weigh all food that I cook, and when I eat out I have to eyeball it or take note of the chain I'm eating at. Honestly, a cheat day for me is in the 1800-2000 range. I also do not overestimate my calorie burn, that is for SURE. At Orange Theory we use heart rate monitors and even though they say I burn 416 calories in 45 minutes, I always log it as about 350.
Can you please open your diary so that we can take a look?
Oh dear, if I had to do all that, I would have not lost weight. I lost over 80 pounds not measuring. However, now that I am in maintenance, I weigh everything with a food scale using grams, except my butter cooking spray.
Now that I am maintaining, I am a huge proponent of measuring but people can lose without it. With that said, if she does not have a medical issue, I would agree that she is eating too much and not accurately counting calories.
Weighing every little thing we eat is definitely not a prerequisite for losing weight, millions of people lose weight without weighing and logging. However if someone has plateaued/stalled or is gaining it would be the very first thing i'd look into doing.
I understand. I was only saying that I could not do that. Just speaking about my own personal experience. I know that I couldn't measure all that. Not discouraging anyone from taking the posters advice.
I get what you're saying, it does look incredibly overwhelming when reading it here in so much detail. It took me months to start using a food scale because "I was not NOT going to be one of those obsessive people who weigh every morsel that passes their lips", but i eventually caved, and here i am now preaching what i used to be so dead against doing lol2 -
zonkiethegreat wrote: »gomisskellygo wrote: »OP: I feel you. I have been going through the same thing for years. All of my thyroid tests have come back within the normal range. I, like you, am probably eating more than I think. BUT, I am still eating much LESS than I was before and working out much MORE than ever. There should be a deficit regardless. I have been lifting 3 times a week and doing met con 2x a week and hiking a 3,000-4,000 foot mountain almost every weekend! My journal is open but I haven't really logged correctly in awhile. I needed a "head break". Enjoy my Jane's Addiction concert beer binge entry from the other day!
I am going to be vigilant with my weighing and see what happens in the next month.
TLDR: I can relate.
SAME HERE. I used to hate exercising, but then on June 11, 2015 I joined Orange Theory and even though I haven't lost weight, I feel 10X better after each workout. So I've been more active physically then I have ever been in my entire life. The problem is that I also weigh more than I ever have.
Between Fitbit, Myfitnesspal and my short lived run with WW app, I feel like jumping off the metaphorical cliff sometimes. But I don't want to get worse, so I won't give up.
As for everyone asking me about HOW I measure everything when I cook. I use an electric scale, and measuring devices like measuring cups and spoons etc. I even have a special measuring cup just for liquids. So please, stop asking about how I measure, I know how much I'm eating when I'm home. When I go out to eat, I skip rice, I skip potatoes, and bread. I usually will eat a protein like steak or grilled chicken with veggies or salad or sweet potato. I avoid fried food completely, and if I'm really jonesing for dessert I either order a cappuccino or I wait till I get home and have a sugar free jello or sugar free pudding. That's about it. I don't eat fast food either, and I avoid eating sandwiches for lunches.
My days look something like this:
Breakfast - 2 scrambled eggs with 1/4 cup of cheese
Lunch - I go to Orange Theory often during my lunch break (about 3x a week) and then I have one slice of natures own double fiber bread with unsalted natural peanut butter (1 tablespoon) and one large banana
Snacks- a low fat cheese stick or almonds and a sugar free cherry jello
Dinner - this varies and depends on whether I go out or not. But usually it's protein with a side of veggies or black beans. If I eat at home it's usually broiled salmon with 2 tablespoons of lemon butter sauce baked on top and a side of French green beans and a few slices of cut up sweet potato (baked). For dessert I'll have a sugar free chocolate Popsicle or pudding or jello.
OP please don't think i'm being pedantic or nitpicky, but i bolded the stuff that seems to me that you are not weighing everything you eat, or maybe you wrote like that because it was easier than writing exact weights. You don't have to clarify if you don't want to, i can imagine this whole thread has been a draining experience having to explain every little thing you do and eat.
ETA: the sugar free popsicle,pudding/jello wasn't meant to be bolded, but it wont let me fix it.7 -
Think about low carb high fat (LCHF) eating. Check out dietdoctor.com. I have been doing it since January and have lost 80 pounds without exercise and have not been hungry
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zonkiethegreat wrote: »RavenLibra wrote: »Stay out of Restaurants for a month, weigh and log every gram of what you eat for that month... OR next time you are at a restaurant order your meal and "guesstimate" the calories THEN buy the same meal and take it home. and conduct an autopsy. weigh and calculate the calories for real. Secondly, do you log alcohol? booze can be the hidden culprit in lots of diet frustrations... the carbs in booze are off the chart. So... your choice... continue to look for the phantom reasons or "man up" and have that hard look in the mirror.
When I go out to eat, if it's a restaurant with nutrition info I go by that and log it. If it's a place that doesn't have nutrition info, I then have to guesstimate based on comparable restaurants that do have nutrition info OR I break down the food I ate into MFP. As for alcohol I don't drink, like very very rarely, maybe one or two glasses of wine a MONTH. I'm very very strict about beverages, I don't drink booze and I don't drink soda, just plain boring water or La Croix sparkling water.
In regard to LCHF, my diary is open to friends, you can send me a request if you want and take a look at what I eat, and I'll be glad to answer what questions I can via PM, so as not to hijack the thread. I haven't braved the restaurant scene yet, but my basic plan is to focus on the meat and basic garden salad (the carbs in fancy restaurant salads can be appalling), skip the bread and potatoes, don't eat anything battered. You'll want to drink even more water, though, because you'll be losing it. If people ask rude nosy questions about what you're eating, just shrug and say it's what you like.
My brother travels for work quite a bit, and only eats at restaurants when he is meeting clients or colleagues at one, OR when he is in the area of a restaurant he saw on Diners, Drive-ins, and Dives (because he is a weirdo and loves Guy Fieri, LOL). Otherwise he brings stuff from home (he's a great cook) not just because of staying fit but also because he's cheap and wants to keep more of his per diem, heh. Also he says he gets in a lot of activity playing golf, of all things. I guess from the walking. Then I call him a yuppie and we laugh.0 -
sleepyhero wrote: »oh, i know how it feels
Work hard, don't give up. my friend was ready to give up half way to weight loss, but this [redacted] helped him, and of course, training in the gym
^^Please don't listen to this. The link is spammy spam spam.0 -
And she has posted it on many threads in the last hour0
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singingflutelady wrote: »And she has posted it on many threads in the last hour
Yep. And just keeps going. Plus the title page of the link misspells "lose." It's a trifecta of DO NOT WANT.2
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