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Gut microbe imbalance and diabetes

madammags
madammags Posts: 97 Member
edited November 13 in Debate Club
Researchers have found a link between high numbers of specific gut microbes and insulin resistance.

Not so much for debate as information, I guess, but I thought it was interesting anyway, and since it's a local university, we are probably hearing about it here before the international media have picked up on it.

Blurb from the university here and full article here (in Nature, behind pay wall, if anyone has access I'd love to hear more deatils from the study).

From what I can tell, some causality has been shown, in addition to correlations. I think we are only just at the tip of the iceberg with regards to the influence of gut bacteria.

I guess the problem is whether results like these are likely to lead to new and effective intervention, or just make the average person throw up their hands and sit back in a 'See? It's not me, it's the bacteria!' reaction.
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Replies

  • Zipp237
    Zipp237 Posts: 255 Member
    We are on the tip of the iceberg with everything in the body. We have only learned enough to know that there is an almost unending amount of things we don't know.

    Every time we learn something new, it just shows us how much more there is to know, especially regarding the brain. The biggest breakthrough ever basically told us, "Holy *kitten*, there is so much more going on than we ever suspected!"
  • RalfLott
    RalfLott Posts: 5,036 Member
    Zipp237 wrote: »
    We are on the tip of the iceberg with everything in the body. We have only learned enough to know that there is an almost unending amount of things we don't know.

    Every time we learn something new, it just shows us how much more there is to know, especially regarding the brain. The biggest breakthrough ever basically told us, "Holy *kitten*, there is so much more going on than we ever suspected!"

    How true. Like the shadows on Plato's cave walls, the scant information we're able to piece together about our health is far removed from the real and complete.
    But if all we have are shadows, we'd better keep watching.....

    ************

    Here's a fascinating "crowd sourced, citizen science" project specifically aimed at the mysterious worlds inside our guts:

    http://americangut.org/


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4Oq0Mgghf0



  • NorthCascades
    NorthCascades Posts: 10,968 Member
    madammags wrote: »
    I guess the problem is whether results like these are likely to lead to new and effective intervention [or prevention], or just make the average person throw up their hands and sit back in a 'See? It's not me, it's the bacteria!' reaction.

    So what affects the gut bacteria...?
  • RalfLott
    RalfLott Posts: 5,036 Member
    So what affects the gut bacteria...?

    "[C]hanges can happen incredibly fast in the human gut—within three or four days of a big shift in what you eat."
    http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-guts-microbiome-changes-diet/

  • psuLemon
    psuLemon Posts: 38,431 MFP Moderator
    madammags wrote: »
    I guess the problem is whether results like these are likely to lead to new and effective intervention [or prevention], or just make the average person throw up their hands and sit back in a 'See? It's not me, it's the bacteria!' reaction.

    So what affects the gut bacteria...?

    Pretty much everything. It is constantly changing based on the types of food you consume. And just because it changes, doesnt mean its always bad. Aaron provided some great insight into it over the last several pages of the aspartame isnt scary thread.
  • BinaryPulsar
    BinaryPulsar Posts: 8,927 Member
    LINIA wrote: »
    This information points to and reinforces the idea that for many people CICO will not work.

    For me I was in an unusual situation. I have malabsorption. I was on mfp for three years before I encountered this health issue. So, I had a good track record of counting calories and maintaining my weight. I joined on maintenance just for fitness (not to lose or gain). But, due to malabsorption I was eating 2500 to 3000 and couldn't gain past 95 pounds. But, this wasn't in any way a good thing. I had severe life disruptive health issues. The food would go straight through me undigested.
  • Orphia
    Orphia Posts: 7,097 Member
    madammags wrote: »
    Researchers have found a link between high numbers of specific gut microbes and insulin resistance.

    Not so much for debate as information, I guess, but I thought it was interesting anyway, and since it's a local university, we are probably hearing about it here before the international media have picked up on it.

    Blurb from the university here and full article here (in Nature, behind pay wall, if anyone has access I'd love to hear more deatils from the study).

    From what I can tell, some causality has been shown, in addition to correlations. I think we are only just at the tip of the iceberg with regards to the influence of gut bacteria.

    I guess the problem is whether results like these are likely to lead to new and effective intervention, or just make the average person throw up their hands and sit back in a 'See? It's not me, it's the bacteria!' reaction.

    I was interested to see the alleged causality, as so many gut biome claims in the health news these days are purely correlations.

    From the university's blurb:

    "The researchers observed that people who had a decreased capacity of insulin action, and therefore were insulin resistant, had elevated blood levels of a subgroup of amino acids called branched-chain amino acids (BCAAs). Importantly, the rise of BCAAs levels in blood was related to specific changes in the gut microbiota composition and function.

    "The main drivers behind the gut bacterial biosynthesis of BCAAs turned out to be the two bacteria Prevotella copri and Bacteroides vulgatus. To test mechanistically if gut bacteria were a true cause of insulin resistance, the researchers fed mice with the Prevotella copri bacteria for 3 weeks. Compared with sham fed mice the Prevotella copi fed mice developed increased blood levels of BCAAs, insulin resistance and intolerance to glucose."

    Interesting, but still, it's only in mice, not humans. This has a way to get before being hard science.
    LINIA wrote: »
    This information points to and reinforces the idea that for many people CICO will not work.

    Not so fast.

    Again from the university:

    "“Most people with insulin resistance do not know that they have it. However, it is known that the majority of overweight and obese individuals are insulin resistant and it is well known that dietary shifts to less calorie-dense eating and increased daily intake of any kind of vegetables and less intake of food rich in animal fat tend to normalize imbalances of gut microbiota and simultaneously improve insulin sensitivity of the host," adds Pedersen."
  • KetoneKaren
    KetoneKaren Posts: 6,412 Member
    I haven't looked to see but wonder if there are studies comparing diabetics taking a probiotic vs placebo.
  • BinaryPulsar
    BinaryPulsar Posts: 8,927 Member
    My gut issue reached problematic levels for me when I was vegan. But, my diet had daily grains like quinoa mostly, rice, and I was trying many other grains. I was also eating high fodmap vegetables and vegetable protein such as beans. Too much fermenting in my gut because I had malabsorption. I had to start back to an omnivore (though limited) diet. The changes of the impact on my health from the vegan diet and return of health when I stopped was tremendous. I had no idea gut health could do all of that to a person. But, my many doctors and I do now. I am not saying a vegan diet is bad. It's clearly healthy for many people and as appears to be shown in research. But, it wasn't healthy for me in my personal circumstances. So, I look to the info for guidance. But, I keep a food diary, track my symptoms when they get worse and better. That's been the best way to heal. The experiential evidence in my own life that I have direct experience of.
  • RalfLott
    RalfLott Posts: 5,036 Member
    Brava, @BinaryPulsar!

    Are you in the process of hunting for a lower-FODMAP, mostly-vegetarian diet? If not, have you settled on any scheme in particular?

    Congrats on your progress.
  • caroldavison332
    caroldavison332 Posts: 864 Member
    so I try to stuff in as much raw and vegetable as possible, take a $.05 probiotic from Whole foods daily and avoid grains, sugars, flours and prepared food. I lost 29 pounds this year and only have 1 sinus infection, instead of my usual 4, and didn't loose work.
  • BinaryPulsar
    BinaryPulsar Posts: 8,927 Member
    RalfLott wrote: »
    Brava, @BinaryPulsar!

    Are you in the process of hunting for a lower-FODMAP, mostly-vegetarian diet? If not, have you settled on any scheme in particular?

    Congrats on your progress.

    I have found the diet that's working for me. I am 98% symptom free (hard to quantify), and some of the symptoms are completely gone. Now I am healing and making continued progress. And I gained back my weight. I am eating low fodmap fruit and vegetables (cooked). Kefir. Eggs. Chicken. Sometimes steak. Coconut and olive oil. Brazil and walnuts. Dark chocolate and cacao powder. Eventually I should be able to slowly add the fodmaps back again. Thanks!
  • RalfLott
    RalfLott Posts: 5,036 Member
    @BinaryPulsar - Keep us all posted on your progress, eh? Sounds like you've really turned the corner.
  • BinaryPulsar
    BinaryPulsar Posts: 8,927 Member
    RalfLott wrote: »
    @BinaryPulsar - Keep us all posted on your progress, eh? Sounds like you've really turned the corner.

    Thanks! Ok.
  • RalfLott
    RalfLott Posts: 5,036 Member
    edited July 2016
    tomteboda wrote: »
    Technically, @BinaryPulsar had a problem affecting "calories in" with "CICO". The phrase implies a standardized digestive and absorption process. Energy intake would be the bioavailable calories consumed, and for people with malabsorption issues, fewer foods are bioavailable. We don't generally consider undigested food mass as part of energy expenditure (calories out), it's generally treated as a net zero.

    Thanks, @tomteboda. That's an interesting way to look at it.

    But is it not true that no one's CI are completely absorbed, so that there's always a question mark on the CO side of the ledger? If not, what's "standard"?
  • robertw486
    robertw486 Posts: 2,401 Member
    @BinaryPulsar

    I just recently went through a short term situation similar to what you've been dealing with, and I can't imagine the long term issues you had to fight. I'm glad things are looking up for you!

    In my case it was antibiotics that caused the imbalance, and another round of antibiotics and use of probiotics got things back in order. To be honest I didn't keep very good track of what did stay in my system, as I was to the point of feeling energy deprived and just glad something was staying in me for a while.


    There seems to be a lot of recent research suggesting that gut bacteria from person to person has great influence on how well we absorb food. And a lot of studies are now pointing to the fact that gut bacteria may very well have an impact on mental health as some personal traits as well.

    A recent read....

    https://sciencenews.org/article/microbes-can-play-games-mind
  • BinaryPulsar
    BinaryPulsar Posts: 8,927 Member
    edited July 2016
    @robertw486 Yes, my situation is very long and complicated. But, it all started with a little red spot on the bride of my nose. Seemed apparent I had an infection in a location in my nose that couldn't be seen. I'm in Canada. They said I needed a referral to an ENT for a proper diagnosis. But, it was a seven month wait, so they didn't refer me. I wish they had because what they did to me has impacted my life for a year and a half, and left me with some permanent scarring and damage. So, they gave me antibiotics. But, they didn't know if or when the infection was going away. The swab came back negative and free and clear of all bacteria. But, I was having flushing as a side effect from antibiotics. And there was redness and scar tissue as would be normal. For some reason they didn't know any of this basic stuff. They kept giving me stronger antibiotics. The last one was very serious. It made me very sick, I had an allergic reaction, and it set in motion an auto-immune reaction. Then six months later I was doing fine, but I saw a dermatologist (I had been on the waiting list). She very wrongly prescribed a vasoconstrictor. It's only supposed to be prescribed for permanent facial redness. I had none. And never supposed to be used on scar tissue (I had) or for people with neurological issues (which I had from the antibiotics), and they are always supposed to provide informed consent of what the med does and about the rebound disorder that it is very well known for causing (the med has only been in Canada for a year). I used it three times (with a week between each application). It's a topical. Caused a severe rebound disorder which caused severe trigeminal nerve pain in reaction to any histamine, digestion, lying down. I could barely eat or sleep. I was a professional dancer and had to stop. I was completely debilitated and nonfunctional. But, the foods I was eating, because they weren't triggering nerve pain, were foods I had malabsorption to. I didn't know. And I was getting sicker and sicker and developing more symptoms. Dermatologist just wanted to treat skin symptoms with drugs that make things worse. I said no. Neurologist wanted to just treat the pain. I said no. My Rheumatologist helped me. She said stay off meds, track your diet and symptoms. I had to help myself. She tried four different GI doctors until she found one that would put me on a year long waiting list. She doesn't know my diagnosis, so she wrote celiac disease because it's most similar to that. But, I couldn't stop losing weight and had severe GI problems. I have six more months left on my wait to see a GI specialist. But, I am doing so much better now that I changed my diet. I also take probiotics and drink kefir. Now that my histamine reactions have decreased. I couldn't take probiotics or any fermented foods or animal products because the bacteria caused the histamine reactions which caused nerve pain in my face. It's so crazy what the doctors did to me. Instead of helping me, they just kept making me sicker. There is so much they don't know. Hopefully someday they will. Thanks for the link. I will read it.
  • robertw486
    robertw486 Posts: 2,401 Member
    @BinaryPulsar

    Wow, it sounds like you went through the proverbial wringer with the entire process and misdiagnosis! I'm glad that you finally found something that turned things around for you.


    And just for clarity, I just posted the link to show that more studies are linking gut bacteria to more and more things. Not in any way suggesting that having a malabsorption issue would lead to mental health decay. But what you went through might have made me a bit crazy!
  • BinaryPulsar
    BinaryPulsar Posts: 8,927 Member
    Thanks @robertw486
  • kizanne1
    kizanne1 Posts: 51 Member
    I too believe that gut bacteria plays a huge part. The "food is all the same CICO" mantra ignores so much science. What you put in your body is important, it effects your health. If also effects the CICO equation.
  • RalfLott
    RalfLott Posts: 5,036 Member
    My doctor practices based on this theory alone. He was able to treat a ton of issues I was having by changing the way I ate and creating a healthy environment for my gut flora. It's been well studied, but big pharma keeps it well hidden. Think of how much money they would loose if people found out that they could treat their symptoms using natural things like ACV, Garlic, Salt etc.

    Congratulations on your progress - and also for finding a sympathetic physician.

    I'm curious how it worked - what all did he add & subtract from your diet, and how long did it take you to stabilize?

    Thx!

This discussion has been closed.