Nobody knows what Healthy Food means
Replies
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makingmark wrote: »People will do more research into what is the next phone they will buy, car, computer, couch, or kitchen appliance, then fuel they will put in their body.
Food labelling has all the information we need if we take the time to read it. Now, with the internet it really isn't that hard except in the cases of some restaurants and deli type situations, but even then we can make an educated guess.
We don't need big brother telling us what food to buy any more than we need him telling us what other consumer goods to buy. All the relevant information is already available.
Yep...0 -
WinoGelato wrote: »kommodevaran wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »kommodevaran wrote: »snowflake954 wrote: »Lol..so you dont think labelling food healthy is a good thing? Not everyone possesses the knowledge that you guys do. A balanced diet is all well and good but some people want to eat "healthy foods". I think it is a good move for people that dont know the info you guys have. We have food labelling here and it does help if you are trying to stay under your goals
Jake-- I feel really sorry for someone that has to rely on labeling to hit their goals. I don't think it's going to happen.
Thanks for the pity
. What I mean is when im rushing to grab a sandwich in supermarket at lunch having green, yellow and red colour coding helps to see what sarnie I want to aim for. What isnt gonna happen?
That to work, isn't going to happen. Nutrition is so complex that you need some knowledge, and you can't rely on single points or "quick" solutions. But nutrition for healthy individuals isn't complicated, so that knowledge can be quite basic.
I agree with you, although many on here believe the simple cico system works and that is a basic points system really (just saying). I'm talking as a novice myself. Obviously growing up I have known that vegetables are "nutritious" (words on here, have to be so careful how I word foods) and foods with high saturated fats are 'less preferable'. Before coming on here I didn't think my food choices were that bad, but since being on here and reading up from magazines and websites I have seen my diet wasn't that great. Basically I'm saying I know what it is to be ignorant and not have a healthy knowledge of diet and nutrition. I agree knowledge needs to be given but any step in the right direction is a start - doing nothing is worst
CICO is for weight management. It has nothing to do with nutrients.
And whose idea of healthy would you go for for labelling those sandwiches?
Does the tuna sandwich get green because lots of protein? Yellow because it's not so low in calories because of mayonaise? Or maybe even red because it has bread and thus isn't low carb friendly?
It gets broken down here into 4 catagories and each gets a label based on the quantity. Catagories are calories/fat/saturates/salt and this is on pretty much every product in large retailers
Conflating the complex AND complicating the simple. No wonder you are confused, if you think those labels are going to help you. You won't improve your knowledge (or health) until you accept that it's a dead end. Let it go. Instead, learn what normal, balanced meals look like, and how to combine normal, balanced meals into daily menus. It's not difficult. But you have to accept that you have been misguided, and need to think differently.
It's a pervasive trend in society these days that everyone needs everything distilled down to the simplest, most easily digested (pun intended) version of information, and it's quite depressing. That people need a color coded system to tell them whether eating something is a good idea, without having to learn about why it may or may not be a healthful addition to their diet, is yet one more step in this trend of never having to apply critical thinking, to not understanding science, to just blindly following the recommendations of someone else who tells you something is "bad".
It just isn't that difficult but we see people here all the time who are so confused by the information propagated by the media, by blog posts, by broscience articles, by Pinterest infographics, etc that they have no idea what they should be eating. The diet industry profits by making people think this is more complex than it actually is...
I agree, I prefer to listen to people I don't know in forums lol. Can't say that media, blogs, articles, documentaries, the govt, the UK govt are all wrong, but you guys are correct?
I think an issue here is that you don't realise that not everyone studies up on this stuff. Saying 'oh it is depressing that people down know' - but that is society, you are only as strong as your weakest animals. There are people that need these guidelines, that do need to be led, to be educated. There are people that don't know how to cook so are reliant on ready meals etc
The problem, though, is that people won't become educated by those color codes and whatever else. It's a crutch. If people were going to see the colors, then look to see why that food was made that color, then great. Of course, if people are going to look into the matter, then they probably don't need the color codes in the first place. While it might be better than absolutely nothing, it's still nowhere near "good."
Just to clarify, I mentioned what we have here - but it is not a perfect system and is open to interpretation. I personally don't pay too much attention but I do watch if it is red on salt, mainly cos I don't wanna be dehydrated if I go gym etc. I'll jump to your side for a second and say there will be people who will see fat in red and avoid it thinking that fat makes you fat, which they don't need to do. This is where I mean that education needs to be better.
My wife disregards the labels entirely
You need to replace the salt you lose by sweating. When you exercise, you need more salt, not less. Hope this wasn't judgmental.1 -
snowflake954 wrote: »Lol..so you dont think labelling food healthy is a good thing? Not everyone possesses the knowledge that you guys do. A balanced diet is all well and good but some people want to eat "healthy foods". I think it is a good move for people that dont know the info you guys have. We have food labelling here and it does help if you are trying to stay under your goals
Jake-- I feel really sorry for someone that has to rely on labeling to hit their goals. I don't think it's going to happen.
Thanks for the pity . What I mean is when im rushing to grab a sandwich in supermarket at lunch having green, yellow and red colour coding helps to see what sarnie I want to aim for. What isnt gonna happen?
The colors would basically be arbitrary. Your "green" might be my "red" because of what else we are eating and what our lifestyles are. It's very possible for a double bacon cheeseburger to be a healthier choice than a salad - such as in people whose diets lack in protein, B12, or iron.1 -
WinoGelato wrote: »kommodevaran wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »kommodevaran wrote: »snowflake954 wrote: »Lol..so you dont think labelling food healthy is a good thing? Not everyone possesses the knowledge that you guys do. A balanced diet is all well and good but some people want to eat "healthy foods". I think it is a good move for people that dont know the info you guys have. We have food labelling here and it does help if you are trying to stay under your goals
Jake-- I feel really sorry for someone that has to rely on labeling to hit their goals. I don't think it's going to happen.
Thanks for the pity . What I mean is when im rushing to grab a sandwich in supermarket at lunch having green, yellow and red colour coding helps to see what sarnie I want to aim for. What isnt gonna happen?
That to work, isn't going to happen. Nutrition is so complex that you need some knowledge, and you can't rely on single points or "quick" solutions. But nutrition for healthy individuals isn't complicated, so that knowledge can be quite basic.
I agree with you, although many on here believe the simple cico system works and that is a basic points system really (just saying). I'm talking as a novice myself. Obviously growing up I have known that vegetables are "nutritious" (words on here, have to be so careful how I word foods) and foods with high saturated fats are 'less preferable'. Before coming on here I didn't think my food choices were that bad, but since being on here and reading up from magazines and websites I have seen my diet wasn't that great. Basically I'm saying I know what it is to be ignorant and not have a healthy knowledge of diet and nutrition. I agree knowledge needs to be given but any step in the right direction is a start - doing nothing is worst
CICO is for weight management. It has nothing to do with nutrients.
And whose idea of healthy would you go for for labelling those sandwiches?
Does the tuna sandwich get green because lots of protein? Yellow because it's not so low in calories because of mayonaise? Or maybe even red because it has bread and thus isn't low carb friendly?
It gets broken down here into 4 catagories and each gets a label based on the quantity. Catagories are calories/fat/saturates/salt and this is on pretty much every product in large retailers
Conflating the complex AND complicating the simple. No wonder you are confused, if you think those labels are going to help you. You won't improve your knowledge (or health) until you accept that it's a dead end. Let it go. Instead, learn what normal, balanced meals look like, and how to combine normal, balanced meals into daily menus. It's not difficult. But you have to accept that you have been misguided, and need to think differently.
It's a pervasive trend in society these days that everyone needs everything distilled down to the simplest, most easily digested (pun intended) version of information, and it's quite depressing. That people need a color coded system to tell them whether eating something is a good idea, without having to learn about why it may or may not be a healthful addition to their diet, is yet one more step in this trend of never having to apply critical thinking, to not understanding science, to just blindly following the recommendations of someone else who tells you something is "bad".
It just isn't that difficult but we see people here all the time who are so confused by the information propagated by the media, by blog posts, by broscience articles, by Pinterest infographics, etc that they have no idea what they should be eating. The diet industry profits by making people think this is more complex than it actually is...
I agree, I prefer to listen to people I don't know in forums lol. Can't say that media, blogs, articles, documentaries, the govt, the UK govt are all wrong, but you guys are correct?
I think an issue here is that you don't realise that not everyone studies up on this stuff. Saying 'oh it is depressing that people down know' - but that is society, you are only as strong as your weakest animals. There are people that need these guidelines, that do need to be led, to be educated. There are people that don't know how to cook so are reliant on ready meals etc
As I discovered in grad school, one of the most powerful ways you can learn is by listening to and engaging in debate, and that is what is happening on this forum. We have access to an interesting mix of scientists, trainers, teachers, thinkers, and dedicated people who have successfully lost weight and built muscle. The more you read and participate, the more you will learn. They're not saying that the documentaries or articles are necessarily entirely wrong, they are saying you need to look at them with a critical eye, because they are propaganda tools, and you need to be aware of any potential agenda, and see what is being twisted, hidden or misrepresented, either intentionally or unintentionally. As for the naive, childlike trust in ones government....personally I feel it is my moral obligation as a *citizen* to think critically and rake government diktat over the coals as often and aggressively as possible. You may be surprised to learn that governments have agendas too. That is the point of a classical liberal education, whether one's education stopped with high school or continued through post-doc.
The problem is, to be educated, you have to WANT to be educated. You have to WANT to watch the docs, read the articles, listen to the debate, and join the debate. I was given the basic tools to read and write and understand basic science in elementary school. I was given the tools to think, question and debate in high school. But the passion to do so has to come from within. A lot of the people who most need help are utterly unreachable because they simply don't care. I think it was Robert Heinlein that had to quote about not attempting to teach a pig something it has no interest or capacity in doing, because it wastes your time and annoys the pig. How are you going to walk into some council flats in, say, Glasgow (or a trailer park in Harlan County, Kentucky), and ram that knowledge and education down people's throats, and then make them care? Even my 10 year old knows that eating too many calories and too much bad food makes you fat and unhealthy--she learned that in 4th grade.
The people you are arguing with on here might be random strangers, and they sure like to debate, but they also put a ton of effort, patience, knowledge, passion, and compassion into teaching the newer and less informed people who make their way to this site, as well as their own families. That's pretty awesome, and something I have personally benefited from and admire greatly.
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Lol..so you dont think labelling food healthy is a good thing?
Not particularly. To put this in context, it's about packaged products being able to market themselves as "healthy." Out of context, who knows whether a Kind bar is healthy or not. IMO, it has some ingredients I like to include in my diet, some I probably get more than enough of anyway, and on its own isn't "healthy," although it can be part of a healthful diet, sure. (I like them, I eat them occasionally, but I actually think my diet would be better if I didn't, since they basically act as candy bars that I eat at work when stress eating and when I don't really need to be eating anything and they are not low cal.)We have food labelling here and it does help if you are trying to stay under your goals
Do you seriously think that we don't have food labeling?
Do you have a "healthy" label? If so, out of curiosity, how is it defined/used? (Oh, I see, the green, yellow, red thing.)
IMO, the "healthy" label (just like cereals calling themselves "heart heathy" or whatever) does absolutely nothing to help people make better choices. I think they substitute for reading the label, which is a much better choice (and also prevents people from thinking that something is healthy so they can eat unlimited amounts of it).2 -
rankinsect wrote: »snowflake954 wrote: »Lol..so you dont think labelling food healthy is a good thing? Not everyone possesses the knowledge that you guys do. A balanced diet is all well and good but some people want to eat "healthy foods". I think it is a good move for people that dont know the info you guys have. We have food labelling here and it does help if you are trying to stay under your goals
Jake-- I feel really sorry for someone that has to rely on labeling to hit their goals. I don't think it's going to happen.
Thanks for the pity . What I mean is when im rushing to grab a sandwich in supermarket at lunch having green, yellow and red colour coding helps to see what sarnie I want to aim for. What isnt gonna happen?
The colors would basically be arbitrary. Your "green" might be my "red" because of what else we are eating and what our lifestyles are. It's very possible for a double bacon cheeseburger to be a healthier choice than a salad - such as in people whose diets lack in protein, B12, or iron.
Well yeah - as I said the system in not perfect, it is just what is in place
I think it's highly misleading, and reinforces wrong ideas about foods. You could make a balanced and nutritious diet with mainly "red" foods, and you could make a diet that gives you severe and possibly life-threatening malnutrition with only "green" foods.
And it draws attention to things which are not relevant for everyone. For example, about 9% of the population gain a health benefit from sodium restriction, and 91% don't. To those in the 91%, drawing attention to something that doesn't matter to them makes it harder, not easier to make good choices.3 -
stevencloser wrote: »kommodevaran wrote: »snowflake954 wrote: »Lol..so you dont think labelling food healthy is a good thing? Not everyone possesses the knowledge that you guys do. A balanced diet is all well and good but some people want to eat "healthy foods". I think it is a good move for people that dont know the info you guys have. We have food labelling here and it does help if you are trying to stay under your goals
Jake-- I feel really sorry for someone that has to rely on labeling to hit their goals. I don't think it's going to happen.
Thanks for the pity . What I mean is when im rushing to grab a sandwich in supermarket at lunch having green, yellow and red colour coding helps to see what sarnie I want to aim for. What isnt gonna happen?
That to work, isn't going to happen. Nutrition is so complex that you need some knowledge, and you can't rely on single points or "quick" solutions. But nutrition for healthy individuals isn't complicated, so that knowledge can be quite basic.
I agree with you, although many on here believe the simple cico system works and that is a basic points system really (just saying). I'm talking as a novice myself. Obviously growing up I have known that vegetables are "nutritious" (words on here, have to be so careful how I word foods) and foods with high saturated fats are 'less preferable'. Before coming on here I didn't think my food choices were that bad, but since being on here and reading up from magazines and websites I have seen my diet wasn't that great. Basically I'm saying I know what it is to be ignorant and not have a healthy knowledge of diet and nutrition. I agree knowledge needs to be given but any step in the right direction is a start - doing nothing is worst
CICO is for weight management. It has nothing to do with nutrients.
And whose idea of healthy would you go for for labelling those sandwiches?
Does the tuna sandwich get green because lots of protein? Yellow because it's not so low in calories because of mayonaise? Or maybe even red because it has bread and thus isn't low carb friendly?
It gets broken down here into 4 catagories and each gets a label based on the quantity. Catagories are calories/fat/saturates/salt and this is on pretty much every product in large retailers
If you are a novice, and don't know anything about it, how can it actually help you? If you had no understanding of it, I would think people who are overweight would go in, see a green sticker (is that the good one?) and buy 4 sandwiches, and think because it is green and healthy that they are ok, but in reality they just had 2000 calories of "Healthy" food. The fact is, the until people get some sort of base of knowelege the systems won't work. It's like people think eating a wrap is healthy, because they read it on the internet, or in a magazine, but it's 500 calories more than the sandwhich version of something because the wrap has a ton more calories, and they usually put more food in it.
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jmbmilholland wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »kommodevaran wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »kommodevaran wrote: »snowflake954 wrote: »Lol..so you dont think labelling food healthy is a good thing? Not everyone possesses the knowledge that you guys do. A balanced diet is all well and good but some people want to eat "healthy foods". I think it is a good move for people that dont know the info you guys have. We have food labelling here and it does help if you are trying to stay under your goals
Jake-- I feel really sorry for someone that has to rely on labeling to hit their goals. I don't think it's going to happen.
Thanks for the pity . What I mean is when im rushing to grab a sandwich in supermarket at lunch having green, yellow and red colour coding helps to see what sarnie I want to aim for. What isnt gonna happen?
That to work, isn't going to happen. Nutrition is so complex that you need some knowledge, and you can't rely on single points or "quick" solutions. But nutrition for healthy individuals isn't complicated, so that knowledge can be quite basic.
I agree with you, although many on here believe the simple cico system works and that is a basic points system really (just saying). I'm talking as a novice myself. Obviously growing up I have known that vegetables are "nutritious" (words on here, have to be so careful how I word foods) and foods with high saturated fats are 'less preferable'. Before coming on here I didn't think my food choices were that bad, but since being on here and reading up from magazines and websites I have seen my diet wasn't that great. Basically I'm saying I know what it is to be ignorant and not have a healthy knowledge of diet and nutrition. I agree knowledge needs to be given but any step in the right direction is a start - doing nothing is worst
CICO is for weight management. It has nothing to do with nutrients.
And whose idea of healthy would you go for for labelling those sandwiches?
Does the tuna sandwich get green because lots of protein? Yellow because it's not so low in calories because of mayonaise? Or maybe even red because it has bread and thus isn't low carb friendly?
It gets broken down here into 4 catagories and each gets a label based on the quantity. Catagories are calories/fat/saturates/salt and this is on pretty much every product in large retailers
Conflating the complex AND complicating the simple. No wonder you are confused, if you think those labels are going to help you. You won't improve your knowledge (or health) until you accept that it's a dead end. Let it go. Instead, learn what normal, balanced meals look like, and how to combine normal, balanced meals into daily menus. It's not difficult. But you have to accept that you have been misguided, and need to think differently.
It's a pervasive trend in society these days that everyone needs everything distilled down to the simplest, most easily digested (pun intended) version of information, and it's quite depressing. That people need a color coded system to tell them whether eating something is a good idea, without having to learn about why it may or may not be a healthful addition to their diet, is yet one more step in this trend of never having to apply critical thinking, to not understanding science, to just blindly following the recommendations of someone else who tells you something is "bad".
It just isn't that difficult but we see people here all the time who are so confused by the information propagated by the media, by blog posts, by broscience articles, by Pinterest infographics, etc that they have no idea what they should be eating. The diet industry profits by making people think this is more complex than it actually is...
I agree, I prefer to listen to people I don't know in forums lol. Can't say that media, blogs, articles, documentaries, the govt, the UK govt are all wrong, but you guys are correct?
I think an issue here is that you don't realise that not everyone studies up on this stuff. Saying 'oh it is depressing that people down know' - but that is society, you are only as strong as your weakest animals. There are people that need these guidelines, that do need to be led, to be educated. There are people that don't know how to cook so are reliant on ready meals etc
As I discovered in grad school, one of the most powerful ways you can learn is by listening to and engaging in debate, and that is what is happening on this forum. We have access to an interesting mix of scientists, trainers, teachers, thinkers, and dedicated people who have successfully lost weight and built muscle. The more you read and participate, the more you will learn. They're not saying that the documentaries or articles are necessarily entirely wrong, they are saying you need to look at them with a critical eye, because they are propaganda tools, and you need to be aware of any potential agenda, and see what is being twisted, hidden or misrepresented, either intentionally or unintentionally. As for the naive, childlike trust in ones government....personally I feel it is my moral obligation as a *citizen* to think critically and rake government diktat over the coals as often and aggressively as possible. You may be surprised to learn that governments have agendas too. That is the point of a classical liberal education, whether one's education stopped with high school or continued through post-doc.
The problem is, to be educated, you have to WANT to be educated. You have to WANT to watch the docs, read the articles, listen to the debate, and join the debate. I was given the basic tools to read and write and understand basic science in elementary school. I was given the tools to think, question and debate in high school. But the passion to do so has to come from within. A lot of the people who most need help are utterly unreachable because they simply don't care. I think it was Robert Heinlein that had to quote about not attempting to teach a pig something it has no interest or capacity in doing, because it wastes your time and annoys the pig. How are you going to walk into some council flats in, say, Glasgow (or a trailer park in Harlan County, Kentucky), and ram that knowledge and education down people's throats, and then make them care? Even my 10 year old knows that eating too many calories and too much bad food makes you fat and unhealthy--she learned that in 4th grade.
The people you are arguing with on here might be random strangers, and they sure like to debate, but they also put a ton of effort, patience, knowledge, passion, and compassion into teaching the newer and less informed people who make their way to this site, as well as their own families. That's pretty awesome, and something I have personally benefited from and admire greatly.
Wow, you right really nicely and have the best grasp I have seen of debates and discussion. You have a decent amount of humility which makes this a great post. The guys you refere to will come for you now though for saying certain food is 'bad' lol.
I have learned quite a bit from people on here and it is good for that at times, but it is just another source of info as you say and you need to get a balanced amount if info normally to see the big picture
Really nice post and can't argue with it at all
Ha ha--they are probably laughing because a lot of them have seen me in b---- mode, with a significant lack of humility! I do enjoy me a debate. They already know I've corrected my daughter on "bad" foods ("not bad, honey, just ones you can't fit into your goals").1 -
jmbmilholland wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »kommodevaran wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »kommodevaran wrote: »snowflake954 wrote: »Lol..so you dont think labelling food healthy is a good thing? Not everyone possesses the knowledge that you guys do. A balanced diet is all well and good but some people want to eat "healthy foods". I think it is a good move for people that dont know the info you guys have. We have food labelling here and it does help if you are trying to stay under your goals
Jake-- I feel really sorry for someone that has to rely on labeling to hit their goals. I don't think it's going to happen.
Thanks for the pity . What I mean is when im rushing to grab a sandwich in supermarket at lunch having green, yellow and red colour coding helps to see what sarnie I want to aim for. What isnt gonna happen?
That to work, isn't going to happen. Nutrition is so complex that you need some knowledge, and you can't rely on single points or "quick" solutions. But nutrition for healthy individuals isn't complicated, so that knowledge can be quite basic.
I agree with you, although many on here believe the simple cico system works and that is a basic points system really (just saying). I'm talking as a novice myself. Obviously growing up I have known that vegetables are "nutritious" (words on here, have to be so careful how I word foods) and foods with high saturated fats are 'less preferable'. Before coming on here I didn't think my food choices were that bad, but since being on here and reading up from magazines and websites I have seen my diet wasn't that great. Basically I'm saying I know what it is to be ignorant and not have a healthy knowledge of diet and nutrition. I agree knowledge needs to be given but any step in the right direction is a start - doing nothing is worst
CICO is for weight management. It has nothing to do with nutrients.
And whose idea of healthy would you go for for labelling those sandwiches?
Does the tuna sandwich get green because lots of protein? Yellow because it's not so low in calories because of mayonaise? Or maybe even red because it has bread and thus isn't low carb friendly?
It gets broken down here into 4 catagories and each gets a label based on the quantity. Catagories are calories/fat/saturates/salt and this is on pretty much every product in large retailers
Conflating the complex AND complicating the simple. No wonder you are confused, if you think those labels are going to help you. You won't improve your knowledge (or health) until you accept that it's a dead end. Let it go. Instead, learn what normal, balanced meals look like, and how to combine normal, balanced meals into daily menus. It's not difficult. But you have to accept that you have been misguided, and need to think differently.
It's a pervasive trend in society these days that everyone needs everything distilled down to the simplest, most easily digested (pun intended) version of information, and it's quite depressing. That people need a color coded system to tell them whether eating something is a good idea, without having to learn about why it may or may not be a healthful addition to their diet, is yet one more step in this trend of never having to apply critical thinking, to not understanding science, to just blindly following the recommendations of someone else who tells you something is "bad".
It just isn't that difficult but we see people here all the time who are so confused by the information propagated by the media, by blog posts, by broscience articles, by Pinterest infographics, etc that they have no idea what they should be eating. The diet industry profits by making people think this is more complex than it actually is...
I agree, I prefer to listen to people I don't know in forums lol. Can't say that media, blogs, articles, documentaries, the govt, the UK govt are all wrong, but you guys are correct?
I think an issue here is that you don't realise that not everyone studies up on this stuff. Saying 'oh it is depressing that people down know' - but that is society, you are only as strong as your weakest animals. There are people that need these guidelines, that do need to be led, to be educated. There are people that don't know how to cook so are reliant on ready meals etc
As I discovered in grad school, one of the most powerful ways you can learn is by listening to and engaging in debate, and that is what is happening on this forum. We have access to an interesting mix of scientists, trainers, teachers, thinkers, and dedicated people who have successfully lost weight and built muscle. The more you read and participate, the more you will learn. They're not saying that the documentaries or articles are necessarily entirely wrong, they are saying you need to look at them with a critical eye, because they are propaganda tools, and you need to be aware of any potential agenda, and see what is being twisted, hidden or misrepresented, either intentionally or unintentionally. As for the naive, childlike trust in ones government....personally I feel it is my moral obligation as a *citizen* to think critically and rake government diktat over the coals as often and aggressively as possible. You may be surprised to learn that governments have agendas too. That is the point of a classical liberal education, whether one's education stopped with high school or continued through post-doc.
The problem is, to be educated, you have to WANT to be educated. You have to WANT to watch the docs, read the articles, listen to the debate, and join the debate. I was given the basic tools to read and write and understand basic science in elementary school. I was given the tools to think, question and debate in high school. But the passion to do so has to come from within. A lot of the people who most need help are utterly unreachable because they simply don't care. I think it was Robert Heinlein that had to quote about not attempting to teach a pig something it has no interest or capacity in doing, because it wastes your time and annoys the pig. How are you going to walk into some council flats in, say, Glasgow (or a trailer park in Harlan County, Kentucky), and ram that knowledge and education down people's throats, and then make them care? Even my 10 year old knows that eating too many calories and too much bad food makes you fat and unhealthy--she learned that in 4th grade.
The people you are arguing with on here might be random strangers, and they sure like to debate, but they also put a ton of effort, patience, knowledge, passion, and compassion into teaching the newer and less informed people who make their way to this site, as well as their own families. That's pretty awesome, and something I have personally benefited from and admire greatly.
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If anyone was interested, this is the guidelines we have in place and why. The UK has slightly more than the EU requirement and as people have said below there is even an acknowledgement that the RI is not relevant for everybody as individual circumstances differ. https://www.nutrition.org.uk/healthyliving/healthyeating/labels.html?limit=1&start=1
(this is for info only - not me saying it is perfect lol)
I looked at this, and this is how the Kind bar would fare (I used the new Almond Pumpkin Spice one, but they are all similar):
Fat: RED
Sat fat: RED
Sugar: AMBER
Salt: GREEN
I wouldn't find that especially helpful. I would find looking at the calories per serving (a bar) and reading the ingredients, as well as looking at the actual numbers helpful, which is why I've done this with bars that I consider eating.0 -
It's not so much that the "traffic light" system isn't perfect, it's more that it is completely useless.2
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As an older Brit I find the current and very complete nutritional labelling of food to be tremendously helpful compared to how it was when I was growing up.
But the traffic light system (there's more than one which adds to the confusion...) is just a simple indication for simple people.
If it helps ignorant or just plain disinterested people make "better" choices then great - but it's a hugely flawed way of thinking to assign foods good or bad status with no personal context.5 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »If anyone was interested, this is the guidelines we have in place and why. The UK has slightly more than the EU requirement and as people have said below there is even an acknowledgement that the RI is not relevant for everybody as individual circumstances differ. https://www.nutrition.org.uk/healthyliving/healthyeating/labels.html?limit=1&start=1
(this is for info only - not me saying it is perfect lol)
I looked at this, and this is how the Kind bar would fare (I used the new Almond Pumpkin Spice one, but they are all similar):
Fat: RED
Sat fat: RED
Sugar: AMBER
Salt: GREEN
I wouldn't find that especially helpful. I would find looking at the calories per serving (a bar) and reading the ingredients, as well as looking at the actual numbers helpful, which is why I've done this with bars that I consider eating.
Well yeah exactly - it isn't perfect - what do you reckon Salmon fillets have in the fat column...red lol
Then how is it actually making it simpler or really helping people? One of the reasons MFP focuses on macros and Calories is because it is a fairly easy high level way to look at food and get a nutritious diet out of it. If people just did those basics we would be far better off, but as was said above some people don't want to learn.
Nutrition can be a deep dark rabbit hole if you want to get obsessive about it and go into micronutrients and all the other extraneous things that may help a small percentage. Add in super foods, good food, bad food, vegan, keto, lchf, etc and people can easily get confused and miss the forest for the trees.
For losing weight Calories are king
For proper nutrition, mind your macros
For anything beyond that, you are out of beginner courses and really out of what you need to know unless you have a medical reason for a certain type of diet. Nice to know, but not need to know.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Lol..so you dont think labelling food healthy is a good thing?
Not particularly. To put this in context, it's about packaged products being able to market themselves as "healthy." Out of context, who knows whether a Kind bar is healthy or not. IMO, it has some ingredients I like to include in my diet, some I probably get more than enough of anyway, and on its own isn't "healthy," although it can be part of a healthful diet, sure. (I like them, I eat them occasionally, but I actually think my diet would be better if I didn't, since they basically act as candy bars that I eat at work when stress eating and when I don't really need to be eating anything and they are not low cal.)We have food labelling here and it does help if you are trying to stay under your goals
Do you seriously think that we don't have food labeling?
Do you have a "healthy" label? If so, out of curiosity, how is it defined/used? (Oh, I see, the green, yellow, red thing.)
IMO, the "healthy" label (just like cereals calling themselves "heart heathy" or whatever) does absolutely nothing to help people make better choices. I think they substitute for reading the label, which is a much better choice (and also prevents people from thinking that something is healthy so they can eat unlimited amounts of it).
As usual I seem to take centre stage for presenting points. Easier to disect a point than it is to make one. First quote you have used one line taking what I said out of context. I know we don't label food healthy or unhealthy, gets said to me every single day...
I wasn't intending to take you out of context and I think you are misreading my post somewhat. The fact is we (as a society, both in the US and UK) DO permit labeling foods healthy or not -- that's what's under debate, under what circumstances should manufacturers in the US be able to use a "healthy" label and the red/yellow/green labels operate the same way in the UK.
My view is that this is not particularly useful and can be misleading. (I don't have strong feelings about whether it should be permitted or not, but if I were to vote on it I'd vote against.) I come from a particular POV in that I don't eat a lot of packaged stuff that isn't extremely obvious what's in it (like dried pasta, canned or dried beans), and I'm a long-time label reader. I think we should help educate people in the really quite simple principles of nutrition and not confuse the issue by debating whether individual foods are healthy or not when the amount consumed and how it is consumed matters a lot more. (A kind bar, with a good percentage of the calories -- and the reason for the high fat -- being from nuts is probably a pretty decent snack. Is it super healthy and something we should go out of our way to add to an already calorie sufficient and nutritious diet? IMO, not unless you are doing it because you really like it and want to make room. How do you come up with colors that convey this on a box?)
If you did not mean to suggest that the US does not already have food labeling with your comment about the food labeling there, then I misunderstood. It was a genuine misunderstanding which I appreciate you clarifying, not an effort to score points, which would be pretty pointless and silly and not something I do.2 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »If anyone was interested, this is the guidelines we have in place and why. The UK has slightly more than the EU requirement and as people have said below there is even an acknowledgement that the RI is not relevant for everybody as individual circumstances differ. https://www.nutrition.org.uk/healthyliving/healthyeating/labels.html?limit=1&start=1
(this is for info only - not me saying it is perfect lol)
I looked at this, and this is how the Kind bar would fare (I used the new Almond Pumpkin Spice one, but they are all similar):
Fat: RED
Sat fat: RED
Sugar: AMBER
Salt: GREEN
I wouldn't find that especially helpful. I would find looking at the calories per serving (a bar) and reading the ingredients, as well as looking at the actual numbers helpful, which is why I've done this with bars that I consider eating.
Well yeah exactly - it isn't perfect - what do you reckon Salmon fillets have in the fat column...red lol
And to me that would be an unacceptable system, then.2 -
stevencloser wrote: »kommodevaran wrote: »snowflake954 wrote: »Lol..so you dont think labelling food healthy is a good thing? Not everyone possesses the knowledge that you guys do. A balanced diet is all well and good but some people want to eat "healthy foods". I think it is a good move for people that dont know the info you guys have. We have food labelling here and it does help if you are trying to stay under your goals
Jake-- I feel really sorry for someone that has to rely on labeling to hit their goals. I don't think it's going to happen.
Thanks for the pity . What I mean is when im rushing to grab a sandwich in supermarket at lunch having green, yellow and red colour coding helps to see what sarnie I want to aim for. What isnt gonna happen?
That to work, isn't going to happen. Nutrition is so complex that you need some knowledge, and you can't rely on single points or "quick" solutions. But nutrition for healthy individuals isn't complicated, so that knowledge can be quite basic.
I agree with you, although many on here believe the simple cico system works and that is a basic points system really (just saying). I'm talking as a novice myself. Obviously growing up I have known that vegetables are "nutritious" (words on here, have to be so careful how I word foods) and foods with high saturated fats are 'less preferable'. Before coming on here I didn't think my food choices were that bad, but since being on here and reading up from magazines and websites I have seen my diet wasn't that great. Basically I'm saying I know what it is to be ignorant and not have a healthy knowledge of diet and nutrition. I agree knowledge needs to be given but any step in the right direction is a start - doing nothing is worst
CICO is for weight management. It has nothing to do with nutrients.
And whose idea of healthy would you go for for labelling those sandwiches?
Does the tuna sandwich get green because lots of protein? Yellow because it's not so low in calories because of mayonaise? Or maybe even red because it has bread and thus isn't low carb friendly?
It gets broken down here into 4 catagories and each gets a label based on the quantity. Catagories are calories/fat/saturates/salt and this is on pretty much every product in large retailers
Interesting, it seems that they're following very similar guidelines for what the FDA is using for "healthy", lower fat and calorie focused. They just have a color coded system, but again, it's on the same flawed logic. Fruits and veggies aren't labeled, but if they were, I'd guess avocados would be at least an orange dot if not red. Same with a package of nuts, peanut butter, or a container of olive oil.
And while it's not color coded, the FDA has started a "facts up front" initiative. http://www.factsupfront.org/
ETA: I kept reading. It's more than one dot. Yeah, I'd kind of get analysis paralysis if there were 4-5 dots and some were green and some were red. I guess your doctor could say, well focus on the second dot from the right only because that the most important to your personal medical history, but the chances of that happening...0 -
kommodevaran wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »kommodevaran wrote: »snowflake954 wrote: »Lol..so you dont think labelling food healthy is a good thing? Not everyone possesses the knowledge that you guys do. A balanced diet is all well and good but some people want to eat "healthy foods". I think it is a good move for people that dont know the info you guys have. We have food labelling here and it does help if you are trying to stay under your goals
Jake-- I feel really sorry for someone that has to rely on labeling to hit their goals. I don't think it's going to happen.
Thanks for the pity . What I mean is when im rushing to grab a sandwich in supermarket at lunch having green, yellow and red colour coding helps to see what sarnie I want to aim for. What isnt gonna happen?
That to work, isn't going to happen. Nutrition is so complex that you need some knowledge, and you can't rely on single points or "quick" solutions. But nutrition for healthy individuals isn't complicated, so that knowledge can be quite basic.
I agree with you, although many on here believe the simple cico system works and that is a basic points system really (just saying). I'm talking as a novice myself. Obviously growing up I have known that vegetables are "nutritious" (words on here, have to be so careful how I word foods) and foods with high saturated fats are 'less preferable'. Before coming on here I didn't think my food choices were that bad, but since being on here and reading up from magazines and websites I have seen my diet wasn't that great. Basically I'm saying I know what it is to be ignorant and not have a healthy knowledge of diet and nutrition. I agree knowledge needs to be given but any step in the right direction is a start - doing nothing is worst
CICO is for weight management. It has nothing to do with nutrients.
And whose idea of healthy would you go for for labelling those sandwiches?
Does the tuna sandwich get green because lots of protein? Yellow because it's not so low in calories because of mayonaise? Or maybe even red because it has bread and thus isn't low carb friendly?
It gets broken down here into 4 catagories and each gets a label based on the quantity. Catagories are calories/fat/saturates/salt and this is on pretty much every product in large retailers
Conflating the complex AND complicating the simple. No wonder you are confused, if you think those labels are going to help you. You won't improve your knowledge (or health) until you accept that it's a dead end. Let it go. Instead, learn what normal, balanced meals look like, and how to combine normal, balanced meals into daily menus. It's not difficult. But you have to accept that you have been misguided, and need to think differently.
Excuse me? Who do you think you are patronising? I'm not confused, I am talking about food labels in the UK, not saying I base my whole diet on them - saying they are a guide. I have been at this for a year and have successfully lost 8kg in total, dropped a jean waist size and building nice bit of muscle. You have no clue about me so shouldn't make assumptions. At least Mr Closer is being fair and having good points without judging people
Initially I was going to halfway ignore your comment, but I did feel a little hurt, not really seeing where this came from, I didn't think I was judging or patronising - I have been wavering between "troll" and "newbie"; but I understand that you didn't like what I wrote. Food and eating is such a personal thing, and we all have our hangups. I think maybe a full disclosure is in order. I'm not an expert. But I don't really think experts and expertise should have a big part in this field. I was brought up on home cooked food, and I had home economics in school, the food pyramid and food groups feel instictive, and I'm very familiar with the nutritional guidelines (they are pretty similar all over the world. Brazil is an exception.) I have tried to stick to those eating rules, but I have never managed for very long, and I always felt it was a personal flaw. I have been obese, I have dieted, and generally struggled with food and eating and fear of gaining weight and getting sick, for over 20 years. It wasn't until 2013, when a lot happened at the same time - I started to get critical, I started to educate myself, and I discovered MFP. The food diary and the community are both awesome. It turns out I hadn't really been struggling to eat healthily, I had been struggling trying to follow unnecessary rules, and rules I didn't understand the reasoning for. Losing all those misconceptions about nutrition, and instead getting in the basics, helped me fix my relationship with food, and has made weight management a breeze.
I live in Norway, and we have a system similar to the traffic lights, a green keyhole. (Introducing the traffic light has also been discussed.) It makes me feel patronized. Pizza gets the keyhole, but not apples. Out of two identical items, it's only on the most expensive alternative. Do they think I'm stupid? I try to ignore them, but it's noise, information I don't need. (Same with all the "free for" items, catering to allergics and hipsters alike. And readymeals, catering for the lazy and the ignorant.) Some grocery chains also have "health" campaigns - reduced prices on fruit and vegetables. It adds to the noise. All foods can be part of a healthy diet. Eating just fruit and vegs is in fact very unhealthy.
Sometimes it's not about answering the question, not when the question is wrong. "Which foods are healthy" is a wrong question.7 -
kommodevaran wrote: »kommodevaran wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »kommodevaran wrote: »snowflake954 wrote: »Lol..so you dont think labelling food healthy is a good thing? Not everyone possesses the knowledge that you guys do. A balanced diet is all well and good but some people want to eat "healthy foods". I think it is a good move for people that dont know the info you guys have. We have food labelling here and it does help if you are trying to stay under your goals
Jake-- I feel really sorry for someone that has to rely on labeling to hit their goals. I don't think it's going to happen.
Thanks for the pity . What I mean is when im rushing to grab a sandwich in supermarket at lunch having green, yellow and red colour coding helps to see what sarnie I want to aim for. What isnt gonna happen?
That to work, isn't going to happen. Nutrition is so complex that you need some knowledge, and you can't rely on single points or "quick" solutions. But nutrition for healthy individuals isn't complicated, so that knowledge can be quite basic.
I agree with you, although many on here believe the simple cico system works and that is a basic points system really (just saying). I'm talking as a novice myself. Obviously growing up I have known that vegetables are "nutritious" (words on here, have to be so careful how I word foods) and foods with high saturated fats are 'less preferable'. Before coming on here I didn't think my food choices were that bad, but since being on here and reading up from magazines and websites I have seen my diet wasn't that great. Basically I'm saying I know what it is to be ignorant and not have a healthy knowledge of diet and nutrition. I agree knowledge needs to be given but any step in the right direction is a start - doing nothing is worst
CICO is for weight management. It has nothing to do with nutrients.
And whose idea of healthy would you go for for labelling those sandwiches?
Does the tuna sandwich get green because lots of protein? Yellow because it's not so low in calories because of mayonaise? Or maybe even red because it has bread and thus isn't low carb friendly?
It gets broken down here into 4 catagories and each gets a label based on the quantity. Catagories are calories/fat/saturates/salt and this is on pretty much every product in large retailers
Conflating the complex AND complicating the simple. No wonder you are confused, if you think those labels are going to help you. You won't improve your knowledge (or health) until you accept that it's a dead end. Let it go. Instead, learn what normal, balanced meals look like, and how to combine normal, balanced meals into daily menus. It's not difficult. But you have to accept that you have been misguided, and need to think differently.
Excuse me? Who do you think you are patronising? I'm not confused, I am talking about food labels in the UK, not saying I base my whole diet on them - saying they are a guide. I have been at this for a year and have successfully lost 8kg in total, dropped a jean waist size and building nice bit of muscle. You have no clue about me so shouldn't make assumptions. At least Mr Closer is being fair and having good points without judging people
Initially I was going to halfway ignore your comment, but I did feel a little hurt, not really seeing where this came from, I didn't think I was judging or patronising - I have been wavering between "troll" and "newbie"; but I understand that you didn't like what I wrote. Food and eating is such a personal thing, and we all have our hangups. I think maybe a full disclosure is in order. I'm not an expert. But I don't really think experts and expertise should have a big part in this field. I was brought up on home cooked food, and I had home economics in school, the food pyramid and food groups feel instictive, and I'm very familiar with the nutritional guidelines (they are pretty similar all over the world. Brazil is an exception.) I have tried to stick to those eating rules, but I have never managed for very long, and I always felt it was a personal flaw. I have been obese, I have dieted, and generally struggled with food and eating and fear of gaining weight and getting sick, for over 20 years. It wasn't until 2013, when a lot happened at the same time - I started to get critical, I started to educate myself, and I discovered MFP. The food diary and the community are both awesome. It turns out I hadn't really been struggling to eat healthily, I had been struggling trying to follow unnecessary rules, and rules I didn't understand the reasoning for. Losing all those misconceptions about nutrition, and instead getting in the basics, helped me fix my relationship with food, and has made weight management a breeze.
I live in Norway, and we have a system similar to the traffic lights, a green keyhole. (Introducing the traffic light has also been discussed.) It makes me feel patronized. Pizza gets the keyhole, but not apples. Out of two identical items, it's only on the most expensive alternative. Do they think I'm stupid? I try to ignore them, but it's noise, information I don't need. (Same with all the "free for" items, catering to allergics and hipsters alike. And readymeals, catering for the lazy and the ignorant.) Some grocery chains also have "health" campaigns - reduced prices on fruit and vegetables. It adds to the noise. All foods can be part of a healthy diet. Eating just fruit and vegs is in fact very unhealthy.
Sometimes it's not about answering the question, not when the question is wrong. "Which foods are healthy" is a wrong question.
I'm very glad you did decide to answer because you've brought up some very good points. I, for one, enjoy your comments and ideas. If the poster you are referring to had been around longer, he would know that you are on an even keel and looked at your comments differently. I very much agree with your post. Carry on. 1 -
Not familiar with UK labeling, but as far as foods in the US, I'm with Michael Pollan:
http://michaelpollan.com/articles-archive/unhappy-meals/
...Once, food was all you could eat, but today there are lots of other edible foodlike substances in the supermarket. These novel products of food science often come in packages festooned with health claims, which brings me to a related rule of thumb: if you’re concerned about your health, you should probably avoid food products that make health claims. Why? Because a health claim on a food product is a good indication that it’s not really food, and food is what you want to eat.0 -
the FDA is the last "person" im going to for heath tips.0
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Wow! I just figured if it had nutritional value it was healthy! Now even with that there would be values, some items being 'healthier' than others but I think it comes down to how one defines 'junk food' for some people!
Great topic!!0
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