Keto saved me!
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ponyvillalobos wrote: »Can somebody tell me what "keto" is? Thanks!
Ketogenic diets - any diet that allows your body to enter a state of nutritional ketosis. You won't find much love for it in the mfp forums because most of the mfp crowd is essentially rooted in the "eat less, move more" Dogma (which is fine too, there is certainly more than one way to skin a cat).5 -
And Dr. Fueng makes claims without actual research to prove his theories. If insulin played a huge role, then vegans would all be obese.
You should look into his actual work. It would likely prevent you from making such uninformed and unfortunate comments in the future. Just a little suggestion, since you're a moderator and all. I would hate for someone to actually believe you. That would be bad.
Also, The correct spelling is "Fung".
Me being a moderator has no impact on this, so there is no reason to even bring that into the discussion. But you can feel free to post some actual research (not just his blog). I have read a lot of his website but it rarely actually provides links to actual research.4 -
And Dr. Fueng makes claims without actual research to prove his theories. If insulin played a huge role, then vegans would all be obese.
You should look into his actual work. It would likely prevent you from making such uninformed and unfortunate comments in the future. Just a little suggestion, since you're a moderator and all. I would hate for someone to actually believe you. That would be bad.
Also, The correct spelling is "Fung".
Me being a moderator has no impact on this, so there is no reason to even bring that into the discussion. But you can feel free to post some actual research (not just his blog). I have read a lot of his website but it rarely actually provides links to actual research.
Oh come now, don't be coy. You read exactly none of his work, because if you did, you wouldn't have been likely to utter what you did.
But oh well, there it is.
Also, I can't seem to find your original post - the one I initially quoted. Strange, that... But I suppose there's a logical reason for it...
3 -
And Dr. Fueng makes claims without actual research to prove his theories. If insulin played a huge role, then vegans would all be obese.
You should look into his actual work. It would likely prevent you from making such uninformed and unfortunate comments in the future. Just a little suggestion, since you're a moderator and all. I would hate for someone to actually believe you. That would be bad.
Also, The correct spelling is "Fung".
Me being a moderator has no impact on this, so there is no reason to even bring that into the discussion. But you can feel free to post some actual research (not just his blog). I have read a lot of his website but it rarely actually provides links to actual research.
Oh come now, don't be coy. You read exactly none of his work, because if you did, you wouldn't have been likely to utter what you did.
But oh well, there it is.
Also, I can't seem to find your original post - the one I initially quoted. Strange, that... But I suppose there's a logical reason for it...
Where is what?0 -
ponyvillalobos wrote: »Can somebody tell me what "keto" is? Thanks!
Ketogenic diets - any diet that allows your body to enter a state of nutritional ketosis. You won't find much love for it in the mfp forums because most of the mfp crowd is essentially rooted in the "eat less, move more" Dogma (which is fine too, there is certainly more than one way to skin a cat).
As a bonus, skinned cat would be keto.5 -
And Dr. Fueng makes claims without actual research to prove his theories. If insulin played a huge role, then vegans would all be obese.
You should look into his actual work. It would likely prevent you from making such uninformed and unfortunate comments in the future. Just a little suggestion, since you're a moderator and all. I would hate for someone to actually believe you. That would be bad.
Also, The correct spelling is "Fung".
Me being a moderator has no impact on this, so there is no reason to even bring that into the discussion. But you can feel free to post some actual research (not just his blog). I have read a lot of his website but it rarely actually provides links to actual research.
Oh come now, don't be coy. You read exactly none of his work, because if you did, you wouldn't have been likely to utter what you did.
But oh well, there it is.
Also, I can't seem to find your original post - the one I initially quoted. Strange, that... But I suppose there's a logical reason for it...
I am not being coy. I have read a lot of his blog post. Many keto'ers and low carbers use it as a means to defend their beliefs, such as the below. But all his citing's are ny times articles and another blog.
https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/first-law-thermodynamics-irrelevant/0 -
I am not being coy. I have read a lot of his blog post. Many keto'ers and low carbers use it as a means to defend their beliefs, such as the below. But all his citing's are ny times articles and another blog.
https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/first-law-thermodynamics-irrelevant/
Again, you clearly have not followed Fung's work. I will award you 1,000 internet points for the attempt.
His criticism of the "First Law of Thermodynamics" isn't the first you'll find - and it certainly won't be the last. The First Law of Thermodynamics, despite being quoted *so rampantly* in fitness circles, is probably the most misquoted and misunderstood law. For this, you can probably thank Gary Taubes and his books "Good Calories, Bad Calories" and "Why we get fat", unless of course someone else covered that argument prior to these works (I'm not aware).
You see, the difference is that all the fitness folks who claim to understand the first law of thermodynamics never seem to take into account that they are quoting a law that is only fully applicable when used in the context of a static, closed system - not a highly variable system like, oh, I don't know... the human body and its associated physiological processes. Or, you know - human metabolism. Is it completely *INAPPLICABLE*? Probably not - but the arguments are compelling.
But you see, unlike many of us, Taubes at least has a basic understanding of the first law of Thermodynamics because he graduated with a degree in physics. Yes, I often get a nice little chuckle every time I hear fitness-minded people claiming to know the first damn thing about this law, and then further attempt to belittle Taubes and *his* knowledge on the subject. But I suppose it's easy to do, after all - Taubes, by his own admission, is a downright lousy physicist - but *a physicist by education nonetheless* which is more than I can say for myself.
So now Fung has this blog, and he makes essentially the same criticisms regarding the "First Law" that Gary Taubes makes in his books. So I understand the basis of Fung's argument - because *it's not even his argument*, and he's not the first person to *make* that argument. Not even Taubes "owns" the argument. But just because a bunch of fitness-minded people seem to think that the first law of thermodynamics applies to a widely variable system like human metabolic process, that does not make it any more true.
But I am not stupid enough to attempt to discredit a physicist and a nephrologist just because I want the first law of physics to apply perfectly to a place where it seemingly does not.
You however may go right on ahead. Godspeed.2 -
What's with the asterisks all over the place?0
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I am not being coy. I have read a lot of his blog post. Many keto'ers and low carbers use it as a means to defend their beliefs, such as the below. But all his citing's are ny times articles and another blog.
https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/first-law-thermodynamics-irrelevant/
Again, you clearly have not followed Fung's work. I will award you 1,000 internet points for the attempt.
His criticism of the "First Law of Thermodynamics" isn't the first you'll find - and it certainly won't be the last. The First Law of Thermodynamics, despite being quoted *so rampantly* in fitness circles, is probably the most misquoted and misunderstood law. For this, you can probably thank Gary Taubes and his books "Good Calories, Bad Calories" and "Why we get fat", unless of course someone else covered that argument prior to these works (I'm not aware).
You see, the difference is that all the fitness folks who claim to understand the first law of thermodynamics never seem to take into account that they are quoting a law that is only fully applicable when used in the context of a static, closed system - not a highly variable system like, oh, I don't know... the human body and its associated physiological processes. Or, you know - human metabolism. Is it completely *INAPPLICABLE*? Probably not - but the arguments are compelling.
But you see, unlike many of us, Taubes at least has a basic understanding of the first law of Thermodynamics because he graduated with a degree in physics. Yes, I often get a nice little chuckle every time I hear fitness-minded people claiming to know the first damn thing about this law, and then further attempt to belittle Taubes and *his* knowledge on the subject. But I suppose it's easy to do, after all - Taubes, by his own admission, is a downright lousy physicist - but *a physicist by education nonetheless* which is more than I can say for myself.
So now Fung has this blog, and he makes essentially the same criticisms regarding the "First Law" that Gary Taubes makes in his books. So I understand the basis of Fung's argument - because *it's not even his argument*, and he's not the first person to *make* that argument. Not even Taubes "owns" the argument. But just because a bunch of fitness-minded people seem to think that the first law of thermodynamics applies to a widely variable system like human metabolic process, that does not make it any more true.
But I am not stupid enough to attempt to discredit a physicist and a nephrologist just because I want the first law of physics to apply perfectly to a place where it seemingly does not.
You however may go right on ahead. Godspeed.
I follow people like Dr. Layne Norton, Alan Aragon, Brad Schoenfeld, Lyle McDonald and etc... people who are actually educated in the field of nutritional science and physiology. I don't educate myself based on researchers who feel there is only one true way, although, I do like some of Dr. Attia's work.
But hey, if you want to sit back and judge, by all means. It honestly doesn't bother me.5 -
I am not being coy. I have read a lot of his blog post. Many keto'ers and low carbers use it as a means to defend their beliefs, such as the below. But all his citing's are ny times articles and another blog.
https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/first-law-thermodynamics-irrelevant/
Again, you clearly have not followed Fung's work. I will award you 1,000 internet points for the attempt.
His criticism of the "First Law of Thermodynamics" isn't the first you'll find - and it certainly won't be the last. The First Law of Thermodynamics, despite being quoted *so rampantly* in fitness circles, is probably the most misquoted and misunderstood law. For this, you can probably thank Gary Taubes and his books "Good Calories, Bad Calories" and "Why we get fat", unless of course someone else covered that argument prior to these works (I'm not aware).
You see, the difference is that all the fitness folks who claim to understand the first law of thermodynamics never seem to take into account that they are quoting a law that is only fully applicable when used in the context of a static, closed system - not a highly variable system like, oh, I don't know... the human body and its associated physiological processes. Or, you know - human metabolism. Is it completely *INAPPLICABLE*? Probably not - but the arguments are compelling.
But you see, unlike many of us, Taubes at least has a basic understanding of the first law of Thermodynamics because he graduated with a degree in physics. Yes, I often get a nice little chuckle every time I hear fitness-minded people claiming to know the first damn thing about this law, and then further attempt to belittle Taubes and *his* knowledge on the subject. But I suppose it's easy to do, after all - Taubes, by his own admission, is a downright lousy physicist - but *a physicist by education nonetheless* which is more than I can say for myself.
So now Fung has this blog, and he makes essentially the same criticisms regarding the "First Law" that Gary Taubes makes in his books. So I understand the basis of Fung's argument - because *it's not even his argument*, and he's not the first person to *make* that argument. Not even Taubes "owns" the argument. But just because a bunch of fitness-minded people seem to think that the first law of thermodynamics applies to a widely variable system like human metabolic process, that does not make it any more true.
But I am not stupid enough to attempt to discredit a physicist and a nephrologist just because I want the first law of physics to apply perfectly to a place where it seemingly does not.
You however may go right on ahead. Godspeed.
I follow people like Dr. Layne Norton, Alan Aragon, Brad Schoenfeld, Lyle McDonald and etc... people who are actually educated in the field of nutritional science and physiology. I don't educate myself based on researchers who feel there is only one true way, although, I do like some of Dr. Attia's work.
But hey, if you want to sit back and judge, by all means. It honestly doesn't bother me.
You might want to mention that Kevin Hall already falsified Gary Taubes but that would mean he would have to read some real research.1 -
Wheelhouse15 wrote: »
I am not being coy. I have read a lot of his blog post. Many keto'ers and low carbers use it as a means to defend their beliefs, such as the below. But all his citing's are ny times articles and another blog.
https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/first-law-thermodynamics-irrelevant/
Again, you clearly have not followed Fung's work. I will award you 1,000 internet points for the attempt.
His criticism of the "First Law of Thermodynamics" isn't the first you'll find - and it certainly won't be the last. The First Law of Thermodynamics, despite being quoted *so rampantly* in fitness circles, is probably the most misquoted and misunderstood law. For this, you can probably thank Gary Taubes and his books "Good Calories, Bad Calories" and "Why we get fat", unless of course someone else covered that argument prior to these works (I'm not aware).
You see, the difference is that all the fitness folks who claim to understand the first law of thermodynamics never seem to take into account that they are quoting a law that is only fully applicable when used in the context of a static, closed system - not a highly variable system like, oh, I don't know... the human body and its associated physiological processes. Or, you know - human metabolism. Is it completely *INAPPLICABLE*? Probably not - but the arguments are compelling.
But you see, unlike many of us, Taubes at least has a basic understanding of the first law of Thermodynamics because he graduated with a degree in physics. Yes, I often get a nice little chuckle every time I hear fitness-minded people claiming to know the first damn thing about this law, and then further attempt to belittle Taubes and *his* knowledge on the subject. But I suppose it's easy to do, after all - Taubes, by his own admission, is a downright lousy physicist - but *a physicist by education nonetheless* which is more than I can say for myself.
So now Fung has this blog, and he makes essentially the same criticisms regarding the "First Law" that Gary Taubes makes in his books. So I understand the basis of Fung's argument - because *it's not even his argument*, and he's not the first person to *make* that argument. Not even Taubes "owns" the argument. But just because a bunch of fitness-minded people seem to think that the first law of thermodynamics applies to a widely variable system like human metabolic process, that does not make it any more true.
But I am not stupid enough to attempt to discredit a physicist and a nephrologist just because I want the first law of physics to apply perfectly to a place where it seemingly does not.
You however may go right on ahead. Godspeed.
I follow people like Dr. Layne Norton, Alan Aragon, Brad Schoenfeld, Lyle McDonald and etc... people who are actually educated in the field of nutritional science and physiology. I don't educate myself based on researchers who feel there is only one true way, although, I do like some of Dr. Attia's work.
But hey, if you want to sit back and judge, by all means. It honestly doesn't bother me.
You might want to mention that Kevin Hall already falsified Gary Taubes but that would mean he would have to read some real research.
Which was proposed and partially funded by Taubes NuSI org that he co-founded, ironically.
2 -
And Dr. Fueng makes claims without actual research to prove his theories. If insulin played a huge role, then vegans would all be obese.
You should look into his actual work. It would likely prevent you from making such uninformed and unfortunate comments in the future. Just a little suggestion, since you're a moderator and all. I would hate for someone to actually believe you. That would be bad.
Also, The correct spelling is "Fung".
Me being a moderator has no impact on this, so there is no reason to even bring that into the discussion. But you can feel free to post some actual research (not just his blog). I have read a lot of his website but it rarely actually provides links to actual research.
Oh come now, don't be coy. You read exactly none of his work, because if you did, you wouldn't have been likely to utter what you did.
But oh well, there it is.
Also, I can't seem to find your original post - the one I initially quoted. Strange, that... But I suppose there's a logical reason for it...
Maybe because you didn't look on page 1?1 -
Which was proposed and partially funded by Taubes NuSI org that he co-founded, ironically.
I'm not sure who the bigger idiot is here - the person who thought Kevin Hall was going to go into this study without any confirmation bias, or Gary Taubes for thinking that he might. Seriously, I don't know if Taubes approaching the subject from this angle was an act of bravery or stupidity. I understand *why* he would do it this way, but seriously? Kevin Hall?
This would be like throwing money at newly resurrected Ancel Keys in an attempt to have him disprove the Lipid Hypothesis.
The study itself in combination with Hall's "spin" on the results have probably killed off whatever credibility NuSi may have had - and who knows, maybe that was Hall's primary goal.
I still believe the Insulin Resistance hypotheses are correct, and I still think Taubes, Fung, Westman, Volek, Phinney, etc are absolutely in the right. I believe Kevin Hall had absolutely NO interest in the actual science when this study was launched, and was absolutely going to "disprove" the hypothesis before any work was even done REGARDLESS of what he uncovered. I think Taubes made a huge mistake approaching this study in this way - and the fallout is clearly significant.
But one thing is clear to me - If you can read this study, digest Kevin Hall's spin on the results and all of his contradictions regarding the associations he finds, and still call this "real research"? I think those are the people who are the bigger idiots here. But I suppose that's exactly how confirmation bias works, so I am likely equally as guilty.
1 -
Which was proposed and partially funded by Taubes NuSI org that he co-founded, ironically.
I'm not sure who the bigger idiot is here - the person who thought Kevin Hall was going to go into this study without any confirmation bias, or Gary Taubes for thinking that he might. Seriously, I don't know if Taubes approaching the subject from this angle was an act of bravery or stupidity. I understand *why* he would do it this way, but seriously? Kevin Hall?
This would be like throwing money at newly resurrected Ancel Keys in an attempt to have him disprove the Lipid Hypothesis.
The study itself in combination with Hall's "spin" on the results have probably killed off whatever credibility NuSi may have had - and who knows, maybe that was Hall's primary goal.
I still believe the Insulin Resistance hypotheses are correct, and I still think Taubes, Fung, Westman, Volek, Phinney, etc are absolutely in the right. I believe Kevin Hall had absolutely NO interest in the actual science when this study was launched, and was absolutely going to "disprove" the hypothesis before any work was even done REGARDLESS of what he uncovered. I think Taubes made a huge mistake approaching this study in this way - and the fallout is clearly significant.
But one thing is clear to me - If you can read this study, digest Kevin Hall's spin on the results and all of his contradictions regarding the associations he finds, and still call this "real research"? I think those are the people who are the bigger idiots here. But I suppose that's exactly how confirmation bias works, so I am likely equally as guilty.
I am thinking more than most of us based on your posting style. He isn't the only one who has done isocaloric comparisons with protein held constant. The point of studies is to test a hypothesis. The KH study did that. In fact, other studies (not funded by Nusi or done by KH have also done that).
As it relates to the KH study, the short term increase in EE (and subsequent lack of fat loss) was explained by KH in one of Dr. Attia's blogs (I can see if I can find it). The increase in EE was from the additional energy required for ketone production and potential transient increases in activity even though they tried to control that.
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/83/5/1055.long
But if you have any good Fung studies (not just his blogs) that support his hypothesis, I would love to see them.
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I started purely CICO and then moved toward Keto in my weightloss (now at -150lbs and counting). My main hope in moving toward keto was to attempt to keep my body burning more fat then muscle mass as I lost weight.3
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Which was proposed and partially funded by Taubes NuSI org that he co-founded, ironically.
I'm not sure who the bigger idiot is here - the person who thought Kevin Hall was going to go into this study without any confirmation bias, or Gary Taubes for thinking that he might. Seriously, I don't know if Taubes approaching the subject from this angle was an act of bravery or stupidity. I understand *why* he would do it this way, but seriously? Kevin Hall?
This would be like throwing money at newly resurrected Ancel Keys in an attempt to have him disprove the Lipid Hypothesis.
The study itself in combination with Hall's "spin" on the results have probably killed off whatever credibility NuSi may have had - and who knows, maybe that was Hall's primary goal.
I still believe the Insulin Resistance hypotheses are correct, and I still think Taubes, Fung, Westman, Volek, Phinney, etc are absolutely in the right. I believe Kevin Hall had absolutely NO interest in the actual science when this study was launched, and was absolutely going to "disprove" the hypothesis before any work was even done REGARDLESS of what he uncovered. I think Taubes made a huge mistake approaching this study in this way - and the fallout is clearly significant.
But one thing is clear to me - If you can read this study, digest Kevin Hall's spin on the results and all of his contradictions regarding the associations he finds, and still call this "real research"? I think those are the people who are the bigger idiots here. But I suppose that's exactly how confirmation bias works, so I am likely equally as guilty.
I really don't know if KH was chosen by NuSi *after* that he published his first metabolic study.
In that case, after that he claimed to have "debunked" the Carbohydrate-insulin hypothesis yes, definitely delusional to think you could obtain unbiased results.0 -
Kevin Hall is at least attempting to do proper research which is more than can be said for a lot of the BS nutrition research that gets churned out. Whether his conclusions turn out to be right or wrong his studies are honest-to-goodness science. I have nothing but respect for his work.3
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I have been Keto for several months and I don't know about any of you guys but the hardest part for me was my family thinks I am crazy for eating this way. My results are proof positive that it works. Granted it is not for everyone but thumbs up for everyone that has had success.4
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AlabasterVerve wrote: »Kevin Hall is at least attempting to do proper research which is more than can be said for a lot of the BS nutrition research that gets churned out. Whether his conclusions turn out to be right or wrong his studies are honest-to-goodness science. I have nothing but respect for his work.
Generally speaking, I think there are too much money involved in this field of research.
A little shift on dietary recommendations, and you move billions of dollars... I will keep my skepticism on everyone.1 -
It may not be magic, but it is very satisfying to be able to eat satiating foods and still lose weight. I have a newborn and have not been able to carve out time to exercise, add that to making really poor choices my third trimester when it came to my diet. This way of eating has allowed me to lose 8lbs in one week and not be hangry at all.
But, I ate satisying foods all the time while Iost weight and I eat them while maintaing. A lot of your 8 pounds was water loss from the decrease in carbs, doubtful a whole lot of it was fat that soon.
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