gaining muscle whilst having some fat
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I'm not offering anything more in this thread as you are wrong and stuck in your way. Please report back in a year when you've gained fat and asking for advice again1
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trigden1991 wrote: »I'm not offering anything more in this thread as you are wrong and stuck in your way. Please report back in a year when you've gained fat and asking for advice again
I dont know what you are talking about, but it's very arrogant of people to tell me that I'm wrong to want to be 20% bodyfat. That is something which simply cannot be wrong, you need to get it into your head that not everyone has the same goal as you have before you try to offer people advice on their specific goals (rather than advising everyone to change their goals to what your personal goal is).
I already got the advice from other people which is to eat at my maintenence.
Again, I was not asking anyone for advice on what bodyfat % they think I should desire to be. What I was asking for was advice on how to eat to gain muscle most efficiently, whilst already being at my desired fat % which is between 18-23%. You advised me to cut to 12% bodyfat.. which is not advising on what I was asking at all.0 -
trigden1991 wrote: »I'm not offering anything more in this thread as you are wrong and stuck in your way. Please report back in a year when you've gained fat and asking for advice again
and for your information I was just watching worlds strongest man this morning, go and argue with them that they must be 12% bodyfat or they are wrong too lol...1 -
adamnolan904 wrote: »trigden1991 wrote: »I'm not offering anything more in this thread as you are wrong and stuck in your way. Please report back in a year when you've gained fat and asking for advice again
I dont know what you are talking about, but it's very arrogant of people to tell me that I'm wrong to want to be 20% bodyfat. That is something which simply cannot be wrong, you need to get it into your head that not everyone has the same goal as you have before you try to offer people advice on their specific goals (rather than advising everyone to change their goals to what your personal goal is).
I already got the advice from other people which is to eat at my maintenence.
Again, I was not asking anyone for advice on what bodyfat % they think I should desire to be. What I was asking for was advice on how to eat to gain muscle most efficiently, whilst already being at my desired fat % which is between 18-23%. You advised me to cut to 12% bodyfat.. which is not advising on what I was asking at all.
Then the maintenence advice would be incorrect.
Eating at maintenance means you stay at your current weight. If you gain muscle but stay at the same weight your fat % actually goes down which you say you don't want.
If you want to gain muscle and stay at same body fat % you must gain fat and muscle. So it would be correct to bulk, not recomp (maintenance). Which at your current body fat % you would gain fat at a higher rate than muscle.
This is why when you ask for the most efficient way to do some thing that is near impossible, people cannot give you exact advice you want. They are trying to give you an avenue.
Some people here have decades of experience and you still question them.
*edit
This thread seems awlful troll-ish.2 -
adamnolan904 wrote: »trigden1991 wrote: »I'm not offering anything more in this thread as you are wrong and stuck in your way. Please report back in a year when you've gained fat and asking for advice again
I dont know what you are talking about, but it's very arrogant of people to tell me that I'm wrong to want to be 20% bodyfat. That is something which simply cannot be wrong, you need to get it into your head that not everyone has the same goal as you have before you try to offer people advice on their specific goals (rather than advising everyone to change their goals to what your personal goal is).
I already got the advice from other people which is to eat at my maintenence.
Again, I was not asking anyone for advice on what bodyfat % they think I should desire to be. What I was asking for was advice on how to eat to gain muscle most efficiently, whilst already being at my desired fat % which is between 18-23%. You advised me to cut to 12% bodyfat.. which is not advising on what I was asking at all.
Then the maintenence advice would be incorrect.
Eating at maintenance means you stay at your current weight. If you gain muscle but stay at the same weight your fat % actually goes down which you say you don't want.
If you want to gain muscle and stay at same body fat % you must gain fat and muscle. So it would be correct to bulk, not recomp (maintenance). Which at your current body fat % you would gain fat at a higher rate than muscle.
This is why when you ask for the most efficient way to do some thing that is near impossible, people cannot give you exact advice you want. They are trying to give you an avenue.
Some people here have decades of experience and you still question them.
*edit
This thread seems awlful troll-ish.
Thank you! This explains it perfectly,in a way I can understand. I wanted to know the answer - or an answer at least- but was a bit reluctant to join in this,er,discussion......
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adamnolan904 wrote: »trigden1991 wrote: »I'm not offering anything more in this thread as you are wrong and stuck in your way. Please report back in a year when you've gained fat and asking for advice again
I dont know what you are talking about, but it's very arrogant of people to tell me that I'm wrong to want to be 20% bodyfat. That is something which simply cannot be wrong, you need to get it into your head that not everyone has the same goal as you have before you try to offer people advice on their specific goals (rather than advising everyone to change their goals to what your personal goal is).
I already got the advice from other people which is to eat at my maintenence.
Again, I was not asking anyone for advice on what bodyfat % they think I should desire to be. What I was asking for was advice on how to eat to gain muscle most efficiently, whilst already being at my desired fat % which is between 18-23%. You advised me to cut to 12% bodyfat.. which is not advising on what I was asking at all.
Then the maintenence advice would be incorrect.
Eating at maintenance means you stay at your current weight. If you gain muscle but stay at the same weight your fat % actually goes down which you say you don't want.
If you want to gain muscle and stay at same body fat % you must gain fat and muscle. So it would be correct to bulk, not recomp (maintenance). Which at your current body fat % you would gain fat at a higher rate than muscle.
This is why when you ask for the most efficient way to do some thing that is near impossible, people cannot give you exact advice you want. They are trying to give you an avenue.
Some people here have decades of experience and you still question them.
*edit
This thread seems awlful troll-ish.
yeah you are right of course, actually in what I said before I got maintaining my fat % mixed up with maintaining the amount of fat I have right now. I am around 100kg at maybe a bit over 20% bodyfat right now and my end goal is to be around 115kg at 20% bodyfat. Since I'm already around that fat amount now I have to eat a surplus to grow the extra 15kgs of muscle and increase my total weight, you are quite right. And I will gain muscle and fat as my total weight increases, but even though I will gain fat I wont get fatter than I am now as a %, so ok I do need a small surplus but I will just have to be careful with the surplus amount I use.
Recently, I have if anything been slightly losing weight from doing muay thai classes and things even though I've been improving strength too.. so clearly I do need to eat a bit more. I will try to find the balance of what is the best calorie surplus to use (I have no idea because most of the guides are for people who want to bulk not maintain their current fat %, but I will start at maybe 100kcal extra a day and work from there). Thanks for the advice. I guess the important thing now is to weigh myself often to make sure progress is steady.
I never came here to argue or question anyone apart from people are telling me that I am wrong in what I want and my goal must be to get to 12% bodyfat and how terrible it is to be 20% bodyfat, that I must cut immediately.. which I dont get why people cant just accept I want to be 115kg 20% bodyfat.. thats my personal end goal and some people cant accept that being my goal haha.0 -
adamnolan904 wrote: »adamnolan904 wrote: »trigden1991 wrote: »I'm not offering anything more in this thread as you are wrong and stuck in your way. Please report back in a year when you've gained fat and asking for advice again
I dont know what you are talking about, but it's very arrogant of people to tell me that I'm wrong to want to be 20% bodyfat. That is something which simply cannot be wrong, you need to get it into your head that not everyone has the same goal as you have before you try to offer people advice on their specific goals (rather than advising everyone to change their goals to what your personal goal is).
I already got the advice from other people which is to eat at my maintenence.
Again, I was not asking anyone for advice on what bodyfat % they think I should desire to be. What I was asking for was advice on how to eat to gain muscle most efficiently, whilst already being at my desired fat % which is between 18-23%. You advised me to cut to 12% bodyfat.. which is not advising on what I was asking at all.
Then the maintenence advice would be incorrect.
Eating at maintenance means you stay at your current weight. If you gain muscle but stay at the same weight your fat % actually goes down which you say you don't want.
If you want to gain muscle and stay at same body fat % you must gain fat and muscle. So it would be correct to bulk, not recomp (maintenance). Which at your current body fat % you would gain fat at a higher rate than muscle.
This is why when you ask for the most efficient way to do some thing that is near impossible, people cannot give you exact advice you want. They are trying to give you an avenue.
Some people here have decades of experience and you still question them.
*edit
This thread seems awlful troll-ish.
yeah you are right of course, actually in what I said before I got maintaining my fat % mixed up with maintaining the amount of fat I have right now. I am around 100kg at maybe a bit over 20% bodyfat right now and my end goal is to be around 115kg at 20% bodyfat. Since I'm already around that fat amount now I have to eat a surplus to grow the extra 15kgs of muscle and increase my total weight, you are quite right. And I will gain muscle and fat as my total weight increases, but even though I will gain fat I wont get fatter than I am now as a %, so ok I do need a small surplus but I will just have to be careful with the surplus amount I use.
Recently, I have if anything been slightly losing weight from doing muay thai classes and things even though I've been improving strength too.. so clearly I do need to eat a bit more. I will try to find the balance of what is the best calorie surplus to use (I have no idea because most of the guides are for people who want to bulk not maintain their current fat %, but I will start at maybe 100kcal extra a day and work from there). Thanks for the advice. I guess the important thing now is to weigh myself often to make sure progress is steady.
I never came here to argue or question anyone apart from people are telling me that I am wrong in what I want and my goal must be to get to 12% bodyfat and how terrible it is to be 20% bodyfat, that I must cut immediately.. which I dont get why people cant just accept I want to be 115kg 20% bodyfat.. thats my personal end goal and some people cant accept that being my goal haha.
While I'm not arguing or trying to tell you what you should want, it just seems strange that you are set on the numbers they you aspire for. Like, you will have to put in extra work to keep the ratio the same when most people put in work to do the opposite of what you are doing. The easiest thing to do is just eat at maintenance and continue training, yet that would lower your body fat (which is good in my opinion). Just strange is all.0 -
Seems to me that you need to cut (reduce your bodyfat more than you want to) to then bulk to get optimal muscle gain. You can then increase your weight to a level of body fat you want.1
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well I explained some reasons why in the end I want to be 18-23% bodyfat before. I think it looks better, I think it's more natural, I think its better for practical strength/powerlifting and better for my martial arts. I mean bear in mind that some peoples ideal will be to be a sumo wrestler. Everyones got a different goal or idea of where they want to end up.
If I was 12% bodyfat I could reach maybe 100kg if I put on as much muscle as I can really (which is the same weight I am now, but obviously I'd just be quite a bit more muscular). If my allowance is 20% bodyfat I could easily reach 115kg after gaining more muscle, and this is both a more ideal weight and ideal bodyfat for me, asethetically and practically e.g. a cutoff for judo heavyweight is 100kg and being 115kg would be much better than being bang on 100kg. e.g. when I'm in sweden living outdoors in the winter I will probably be quite glad of having some extra fat to keep warm rather than being very low body fat.
I think that worlds strongest men competitors like Brian Shaw look better than ripped bodybuilders, and I think MMA fighters like Daniel Cormier or Ben Rothwell look better too. I probably think this just because I'm more into practicality and I think having some fat is practical and not a disgusting thing and we all must have abs or whatever. I settled on 115kg at 20% as my goal based on a few things, working out my muscular potential, looking at athletes I like such as heavyweight MMA fighters and seeing what they are like physically, thinking about what is practical for me in my life and thinking about what I like aesthetically too.
Maybe 4 years ago I was 92kg, two years ago I was 83kg since I lost some weight eating a lot of veg and vegan foods and doing a lot of exercise, right now I have weighed at my heaviest 102kg, its not like I cant lose weight if I want to, I find that easy, but for sure one thing I noticed when I gained weight is I gained strength too, and I have realised I dont want to follow a fitness program for shedding fat, cutting, having abs etc., but I just want to have practical strength, and look the way I like as well even if magazines and things tell me I must have "abs" lol.
The only problem with this is people saying its so much easier to gain muscle if you are a lower fat %, if this is the case it might be better for me to lose some fat, then gain muscle for a few years, then stick some fat on at the end. But Im not sure if this really is the case from looking at so many strong man competitors and power lifters who have fat but dont seem to suffer in making progress.. so I'm left a bit more unsure about this now, if it really is SO bad to be 20% bodyfat or if people are just overreacting a bit.0 -
TavistockToad wrote: »Seems to me that you need to cut (reduce your bodyfat more than you want to) to then bulk to get optimal muscle gain. You can then increase your weight to a level of body fat you want.
yeah thats what I just wrote, I just thought about that too. I will look into if its going to help me to reach the goals a lot faster or not to cut and stay at a low fat for a couple of years whilst gaining muscle, then put more fat on at the end, or whether its actually not so hard to gain muscle whilst staying at 20% bodyfat (and so far Ive been making good progress I think)0 -
OP I was in a similar situation as you not long ago. I was very happy with my body and BF% but I wanted to be a bit bigger. Recomp wasn't working for me because I was already pretty lean and didn't want to get leaner. So I decided to start a very slow bulk and while I am gaining muscle and fat that is fine because I will only have to cut down a little to get back to where I was.
The thing is, you can start a bulk but at the higher BF% you are now, you would likely end up gaining more fat than muscle.. not very optimal and not what you want at all...so that is why people are recommending you cut down first then bulk, not because it is "terrible to be 20%" or what have you.1 -
adamnolan904 wrote: »TavistockToad wrote: »Seems to me that you need to cut (reduce your bodyfat more than you want to) to then bulk to get optimal muscle gain. You can then increase your weight to a level of body fat you want.
yeah thats what I just wrote, I just thought about that too. I will look into if its going to help me to reach the goals a lot faster or not to cut and stay at a low fat for a couple of years whilst gaining muscle, then put more fat on at the end, or whether its actually not so hard to gain muscle whilst staying at 20% bodyfat (and so far Ive been making good progress I think)
Well, I'll tell you something, the people who have given you advice already, they know their stuff... use their knowledge.1 -
OP I was in a similar situation as you not long ago. I was very happy with my body and BF% but I wanted to be a bit bigger. Recomp wasn't working for me because I was already pretty lean and didn't want to get leaner. So I decided to start a very slow bulk and while I am gaining muscle and fat that is fine because I will only have to cut down a little to get back to where I was.
The thing is, you can start a bulk but at the higher BF% you are now, you would likely end up gaining more fat than muscle.. not very optimal and not what you want at all...so that is why people are recommending you cut down first then bulk, not because it is "terrible to be 20%" or what have you.
ok so do you think maybe cutting to like 15% bf then bulking back up to 20% bf whilst gaining muscle at the same time is a lot more optimal than staying at 20%? Because if i keep on eating a 100-200kcal surplus a day and following my routine i'm doing now (which is a lot of cardio and martial arts 4 days a week and weight lifting on the other 3 days) you think I wont gain as much muscle but more fat with that 100-200kcal surplus (or whatever the surplus amount ends up being). Due to the fact that despite whatever exercise and lifting I'm doing, being 20% bodyfat just makes it really difficult to gain muscle and really easy to gain fat, compared to say being 15% bodyfat or 12% bodyfat whatever?
The thing I dont want to do is lose any muscle or strength, or even weight really, so if I would cut fat now, I would really want to keep on lifting a lot and not lose the fat quickly.. maybe eat a maintenence amount and keep on exercising and lifting so I stay at 100kg but slowly become more muscular and less fat as some fat is slowly replaced with muscle, slowly get down to whatever lower fat %, then I could bulk back up to 20% fat and gain even more muscle on the way. Maybe this could be the best option?
And my other option (which some people recommended but other people said isnt good because its too difficult to gain muscle and not gain fat at this bf%) is just trying to maintain 20% bodyfat, lifting a lot of weights and eating a small surplus for muscle growth, but making sure that its just the right amount so that as I gain weight I'm gaining some muscle and fat but I'm not going over that 20% fat overall mark.
The option I agree I dont want is like eating a lot, gaining muscle yeah maybe but also a lot of fat, bulking to 25 or 30% or more bodyfat or something, then cutting to 20%... sure I dont want to do that because I dont ever want to have that much fat, thats just too much for me.0 -
brentfostwood904 wrote: »...And my other option (which some people recommended but other people said isnt good because its too difficult to gain muscle and not gain fat at this bf%) is just trying to maintain 20% bodyfat, lifting a lot of weights and eating a small surplus for muscle growth, but making sure that its just the right amount so that as I gain weight I'm gaining some muscle and fat but I'm not going over that 20% fat overall mark.
The option I agree I dont want is like eating a lot, gaining muscle yeah maybe but also a lot of fat, bulking to 25 or 30% or more bodyfat or something, then cutting to 20%... sure I dont want to do that because I dont ever want to have that much fat, thats just too much for me.
At 20% BF, your p-ratio will be nowhere near optimal and you can probably expect to put on a lot more fat than muscle regardless of how small your surplus is.
I'm probably wasting my time because you've already ignored good advice from several knowledgeable people here, but here is a good link regarding p-ratio and fat gains: http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/initial-body-fat-and-body-composition-changes.html2 -
brentfostwood904 wrote: »...And my other option (which some people recommended but other people said isnt good because its too difficult to gain muscle and not gain fat at this bf%) is just trying to maintain 20% bodyfat, lifting a lot of weights and eating a small surplus for muscle growth, but making sure that its just the right amount so that as I gain weight I'm gaining some muscle and fat but I'm not going over that 20% fat overall mark.
The option I agree I dont want is like eating a lot, gaining muscle yeah maybe but also a lot of fat, bulking to 25 or 30% or more bodyfat or something, then cutting to 20%... sure I dont want to do that because I dont ever want to have that much fat, thats just too much for me.
At 20% BF, your p-ratio will be nowhere near optimal and you can probably expect to put on a lot more fat than muscle regardless of how small your surplus is.
I'm probably wasting my time because you've already ignored good advice from several knowledgeable people here, but here is a good link regarding p-ratio and fat gains: http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/initial-body-fat-and-body-composition-changes.html
I didnt ignore advice on what I actually asked. I asked what is the most efficient way to go about reaching 115kg at 20% bodyfat when I'm 100kg right now and I'm already near to my ideal bodyfat range. I took advice from anyone who could accept what my actual end goal is and who could advise with that in mind, I didnt accept people telling me that my goal is not to end up at 115kg 20% bf, saying things like "how could this be your ideal?! You should want to be 12% bodyfat!!" because firstly its not even respectful of them, for exaple I dont go onto bodybuilding sites and say "eeewww how could you want to be so big, its so unhealthy, it looks disgusting and its so bad for your heart, how could THIS be your ideal?" I would never be so rude to say that to someone. I dont advise people on here (in this thread) that I think they must stop doing weights, be vegan, and do gentle exercises like walking, yoga and tai chi, to live a long life. If someones goal is to be athletic, quite well built and 10% bodyfat, they arent so healthy in my opinion, any kind of muscle building actually isnt that healthy and people who are more sedintary and just doing gentle exercises probably live longer in the end. So i dont even know where this elitism comes from when I say I want to be between 18-23% bodyfat and people are saying that's wrong and being a bodybuilder is the only right way to be. From too many websites obsessed with the ideal image and cutting and having to have abs I think. Actually people who have say 20% bodyfat probably live longer too compared to people with 10% (who in old age just waste away quickly). Now even if people who were giving advice thought it was so much better to be lower bodyfat for gaining muscle, they could have said "I advise going down to 12%, hovering around 10-15% for a couple of years whilst building muscle, then in the end bulking back up to 20% fat whilst gaining as much more muscle as you can, then hopefully at the end of the bulk having managed to put on enough muscle and being happy at the end of this bulk where youre now 20% fat again". At least that would advise with my end goal in mind. But some people say "no you must stay at 15% bodyfat etc.", they are advising me to change my goal, rather than advising how I can reach my goal, which isnt really advice I want no, not at all.
Also I got different advice. So I cant really be criticised for ignoring advice: Some people advised me to lose weight and eat a calorie deficit. Some people advised me to eat a maintenence amount. Some people advised me to eat a surplus and try to stay at 20%bf whilst gaining weight overall. But the ones advising me to lose weight are also the ones who told me that in the end I shouldnt want to be 20% bodyfat, so I dont know how relevant their advice is to anything.
So far I havent noticed a problem with gaining too much fat, I was gaining strength and muscle whilst I was going from 83kg to 102kg, as well as gaining more fat too. But I seemed to hit more of a wall around 95kg-100kg and its difficult for me to even eat enough to gain more weight now. Because I've been doing so much cardio ive been losing fat and I'm in a slight deficit right now (slowly losing weight), but I have noticed that I get weaker when I lose too much weight despite carrying on with weight lifting 3 days a week, and I get stronger when I get heavier, like even if I just get fatter and not increasing weight in muscle but just in pure fat it seems like my lifts increase.
What Im going to do now is read about the difference between people of low bodyfat say 12%, and people who are say 20% and even higher just for interest say 40%, the difference in how they can gain muscle. I have a feeling that people are just completely overreacting from having been indoctrinated to think that all men have to be ripped, and actually its not so difficult at all to stay at 20% bodyfat whilst building quality muscle. I have been doing fine so far I think. Though I know the earlier years are easiest and I want to be more efficient in the later years of gaining muscle. So I am going to look into it, and if i see that it actually is so much better to be 12% bodyfat for gaining muscle, that at 20% most of my surplus will go to fat and not to muscle despite what exercise and lifting I do and what I eat, if I do see that then I will slowly drop my bf% down to 15%, then in the end bulk back to the desired 20% at the end of having put on enough muscle.
Thank you for links I'm just going to read about this now until I can figure out what the best option is.0
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