Pattern Awareness
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The only pattern for me was having a snack when I went out. I did it all the time way into my teens and I had to make myself stop about 10 years ago (still didn't stop me from getting obese though). That was a hard one to break, honestly (but it did help that there aren't bakeries at every corner in the US compared to France).
Otherwise, that's pretty much it. I actually tend to vary my habits a lot - I try to eat when I'm hungry, so it's never at the same times, never the same foods, sometimes I have dessert after lunch or dinner, sometimes not... I did have the habit of wanting dessert though, but I think I've managed to break that one by just asking myself if I really needed it... and now usually the answer is no.
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CattOfTheGarage wrote: »stroutman81 wrote: »
I flatout don't understand what you're asking in your OP. I'm horrible with applying philosophy or rather, abstract thoughts, to reality.
Do I have patterns or habits in my life? Yes. Do I know what they are? No. Either they are buried so deep in my mind that I don't bother registering them, or I do recognize but I don't care to analyze them.
I think she just means habits that are so ingrained they become automatic, like always eating when you watch TV, always eating a snack in the car or (one of my strange ones) always drinking a glass of milk with peanut butter toast. That one is so ingrained it's like a compulsion, peanut butter toast without milk is just all wrong. I'll actually make the toast without thinking about milk, but then as soon as taste it, I have to get up and go looking for milk.
Yeah, I think that's what she's saying, too. While habits can be so ingrained that you hardly realize you're doing them... as I hinted in the OP... I do find that shining a light on these behaviors can really lead to some major breakthroughs. Especially if there are a lot of behaviors that aren't in alignment with the person you're striving to be.
I think it helps to understand the sequence all habits typically go through:
Trigger -> Behavior -> Reward
If you reflect on what transpired, and view it through the prism this pattern provides... you can learn a lot about yourself. You can start to get inside of some of the automaticity.0 -
I truly wish I had an answer on how to break certain patterns without it feeling "wrong" or "off." I have a pattern of instantly snacking on something when I get home from work at about 6pm (whether I'm truly hungry or not) and a pattern of "needing" something else later at night. I definitely feel that eating too much at night (when I'm too tired to care as much as I did during the day) is hindering my progress. I end up eating nibbles here and there. If I don't eat, I feel like my brain tricks me into thinking I'm hungry and I'm depriving myself, if that makes any sense.
I don't have a lot of calories to play with in the first place (short with not a whole ton to lose) so these snack patterns derail me.0 -
I think I see where you're going with all of this, and the idea is extremely attractive to me. Wrong wording here possibly, but to me it simply feels like the idea of not being ruled by our food, having it fill it's proper place. Once my gas tank is full in my car, I never try to pump more in, nor do I gas up when it's not necessary. It's fuel and only fuel and we both know it's proper place.stroutman81 wrote: »
The bolded - headshotstroutman81 wrote: »
Hey, ya know what? That you're even weighing that choice the way you did last nigh is a testament to the fact that you're changing. Most nighttime snacking is barely conscious. It's driven by automaticity because of things like patterns and emotional cravings. The more awareness you can build into your routines, like this, the more you'll be able to uncover other needs that are simply manifesting as emotional cravings right now. And that's when you can start doing the work of nurturing those needs specifically... rather than general remedy you're currently rocking. Which is, "Eat cookies."
Stay the course!
Also, I'll say this. Counting calories falls down some of the time because it disconnects people from what their bodies are telling them. "I'm satisfied but I'm supposed to eat this many calories. I have some left to fill. Might as well eat something." This sort of behavior, over meaningful spans of time, can really do a number on intentional eating.
Food for thought.
I actually have that conversation with myself. "Am I just eating because I'm "supposed" to? You know, to hit the macro numbers...I feel like a trained monkey sometimes lol.
Much food for thought.
Once you get hooked on the quantification of your food, it can take some real courage and vulnerability to begin stepping away from it all and trusting yourself and your body. When you're ready, though... you can do so gradually. For example, I have a client right now who's moving away from the quantification approach. She started by not counting calories during her breakfasts on the weekends. That's what she felt comfortable and confident with. We'll let her build competence there and progress as she's ready.Your thread just did that.
I have no idea what prompted you to make this thread, but it's working here. I keep thinking how nice it would be to simply eat only what I need only when I'm hungry. What a concept eh? LoL.
Thanks for the insight. I'm taking it very much to heart.
Great! I'm glad. And I used to start threads on MFP all the time just to have these kinds of exchanges. I love them. They enlighten me as well. More of this in the future I hope!
Thinking of food according to that analogy is both appealing and practical sounding to me. I'm not 100% sure that's where you're going, but I'll take what I can get
I'm hoping you stay around too. I'll be on the lookout for your threads
I think that's a descent analogy. Though we have to be careful with trying to remove the human side of food. I mean, for longer than not, food was safety, happiness, warmth, survival, community. And nowadays it's also medication, friendship, fun and much more.
We can't erase these facts. Food is fuel. Yes. But it's so much more.
To me, it's learning to use food for fueling the life you want to live while also enjoying it purposefully. This looks a lot different than the way many people use food... where it's their cure all - albeit temporarily - for all things that are ailing them.
What I was getting at with my post to you was simply this...
It pays to quantify food the way that's the norm here on MFP. But it also pays to pair this approach with the learning and practice of skills that automate appropriate consumption withOUT having to count everything. In doing so, you'll build out a skill set that makes the management and enjoyment of food pretty damn natural.1 -
butterfli7o wrote: »I truly wish I had an answer on how to break certain patterns without it feeling "wrong" or "off." I have a pattern of instantly snacking on something when I get home from work at about 6pm (whether I'm truly hungry or not) and a pattern of "needing" something else later at night. I definitely feel that eating too much at night (when I'm too tired to care as much as I did during the day) is hindering my progress. I end up eating nibbles here and there. If I don't eat, I feel like my brain tricks me into thinking I'm hungry and I'm depriving myself, if that makes any sense.
I don't have a lot of calories to play with in the first place (short with not a whole ton to lose) so these snack patterns derail me.
I've had to a lot, a lot of self-talk in these situations. Am I hungry? No. Okay, but I still feel like eating. What will happen if I eat this anyway? What will happen if I don't? How will I feel after? So, even if I end up eating over my calories (or not doing what I need to do to reach my goals, whatever they may be) at least I've THOUGHT about it. It was a decision I made in a controlled state.1 -
Next thread: pattern baldness0
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stroutman81 wrote: »CattOfTheGarage wrote: »I associate transport hubs - bus stations, railway stations, airports, service stations - with treats. As soon as I find myself somewhere like that I'm looking the the shiny display of crisps and sweets and reaching for my money.
A strange exception is the bus station where I catch the bus home. I don't go looking for treats there, AS LONG AS I stay in the draughty outside bit where you actually catch the buses. Apparently that's not junk food territory. But if I miss the bus and go to wait for the next one the precinct where the shops and information desks are, I'll be looking for treats.
And no, it's not just the visible presence of sweeties that does it - I'm not like this in shopping centres or supermarkets. It's something about travelling.
How often do you find yourself in transport hubs?
I'm in the bus station minimum 3 times a week, but only miss the bus rarely. Railway stations, service stations etc, much more rarely, maybe every few months. These patterns can be surprisingly enduring, though - I think I would have to spend years resisting snacks in those situations to completely erase the urge. Definitely harder to extinguish a conditioned behaviour than to establish one.1 -
stroutman81 wrote: »kommodevaran wrote: »It happens, but rarely (or, no - depending on how I interpret your question). I have experienced the metallic taste that tells you that you should have stopped a few bites ago - once or twice during the last three years. If I can't finish my meal, I stop, and put it in the garbage or in the fridge. I don't stop at "just satisfied" when there's still more on my plate.
It's hard to stop at satisfied when you can't feel it. I like the method of calling a timeout about halfway through the meal to check in with yourself and assess how you're feeling, remember to chew slowly and mindfully enjoy the texture and taste of what you're eating. And then once again, another time out when there are a few bites remaining. I wonder if something like this would create the space for more connectedness to how you're feeling.
Not that you need change. Sorry if I'm thrusting that on you. If you truly enjoy the system you're rocking now... by all means... rock it!My impression from these boards is that this is the most essential factor in the struggling.
I've been coaching people for nearly half my life and have found this to be the case.My body gives signals, I'm just slow to pick them up. My appetite is delayed - it usually peaks right after I've eaten
And if I've eaten too much, I will feel the effect for several hours. I could slow down my eating, but I like to eat fast. I have Asperger's; it can be slow processing and/or lack of imagination, or unrelated, but anyway - I always look forward to eating, but still I'm always very surprised how tasty my meal is. Today, I started looking into that. Now I'm going to make an effort to anticipate the tastes and textures when I prepare the meal, so that my appetite gets a head start. It would be great to stop wanting more food as I take the last bite.
Awesome experiment. Please check back in and let us know what you learn.
And yeah, if you feel the need to eat quickly... it's a tougher road. I've had clients go as far as to set timers while they eat to see if they could stretch it out a certain length of time. It has helped a lot.
The bold for me is what was imperative for my long-term maintenance success. Slow down, be mindful, enjoy the food, listen to the body. Took a while to learn but well worth it!1 -
stroutman81 wrote: »
I think I see where you're going with all of this, and the idea is extremely attractive to me. Wrong wording here possibly, but to me it simply feels like the idea of not being ruled by our food, having it fill it's proper place. Once my gas tank is full in my car, I never try to pump more in, nor do I gas up when it's not necessary. It's fuel and only fuel and we both know it's proper place.stroutman81 wrote: »
The bolded - headshotstroutman81 wrote: »
Hey, ya know what? That you're even weighing that choice the way you did last nigh is a testament to the fact that you're changing. Most nighttime snacking is barely conscious. It's driven by automaticity because of things like patterns and emotional cravings. The more awareness you can build into your routines, like this, the more you'll be able to uncover other needs that are simply manifesting as emotional cravings right now. And that's when you can start doing the work of nurturing those needs specifically... rather than general remedy you're currently rocking. Which is, "Eat cookies."
Stay the course!
Also, I'll say this. Counting calories falls down some of the time because it disconnects people from what their bodies are telling them. "I'm satisfied but I'm supposed to eat this many calories. I have some left to fill. Might as well eat something." This sort of behavior, over meaningful spans of time, can really do a number on intentional eating.
Food for thought. I actually have that conversation with myself. "Am I just eating because I'm "supposed" to? You know, to hit the macro numbers...I feel like a trained monkey sometimes lol.
Much food for thought.
Once you get hooked on the quantification of your food, it can take some real courage and vulnerability to begin stepping away from it all and trusting yourself and your body. When you're ready, though... you can do so gradually. For example, I have a client right now who's moving away from the quantification approach. She started by not counting calories during her breakfasts on the weekends. That's what she felt comfortable and confident with. We'll let her build competence there and progress as she's ready.Your thread just did that. I have no idea what prompted you to make this thread, but it's working here. I keep thinking how nice it would be to simply eat only what I need only when I'm hungry. What a concept eh? LoL.
Thanks for the insight. I'm taking it very much to heart.
Great! I'm glad. And I used to start threads on MFP all the time just to have these kinds of exchanges. I love them. They enlighten me as well. More of this in the future I hope!
Thinking of food according to that analogy is both appealing and practical sounding to me. I'm not 100% sure that's where you're going, but I'll take what I can get
I'm hoping you stay around too. I'll be on the lookout for your threads
I think that's a descent analogy. Though we have to be careful with trying to remove the human side of food. I mean, for longer than not, food was safety, happiness, warmth, survival, community. And nowadays it's also medication, friendship, fun and much more.
We can't erase these facts. Food is fuel. Yes. But it's so much more.
To me, it's learning to use food for fueling the life you want to live while also enjoying it purposefully. This looks a lot different than the way many people use food... where it's their cure all - albeit temporarily - for all things that are ailing them.
What I was getting at with my post to you was simply this...
It pays to quantify food the way that's the norm here on MFP. But it also pays to pair this approach with the learning and practice of skills that automate appropriate consumption withOUT having to count everything. In doing so, you'll build out a skill set that makes the management and enjoyment of food pretty damn natural.
I like that. Kind of like having my....cake..and eating it too
Cheers Stroutman81. I like how you think. 1 -
My pattern was not a snacking one, it was a drinking one. I'd come home, open a beer or pour a glass of wine and catch up on my personal mail. Then I'd have drink while making dinner. Then have a drink during dinner...you can see the pattern there. Of course, my waistline was growing and my sleep patterns suffered. I started to be more mindful when I noticed I was not really enjoying the drinks...I was just doing it out of habit. I bought some peppermint tea and discovered that holding a mug of tea was just as soothing as holding a beer or a glass of wine. Now I have a cupboard full of herbal teas and those are my goto drink(s) for my evenings at home.2
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@stroutman81 I'm curious what arena of psych you practice in? My school background says psych (vs. sociology, psychiatry, etc). Whatever it is (and I missed many), you're very good at it.
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stroutman81 wrote: »ronjsteele1 wrote: »I have found that applying the same ideas that are taught to people learning to budget really helps me. The want vs. need idea really works for me.
YES. YES. YES. I thought I was the only one that noticed this! We are big Dave Ramsey fans. We haven't had debt for most of our 21yrs of marriage. As I have listened to him over the years I noticed as my weight increased (started mostly about half way through our marriage) I got lax with our budget and savings. When I'm doing really well at saving, I'm doing really well at "budgeting" my daily calories. When I'm spending more then I know I *should* (even if we can afford to), I'm not doing well at budgeting my daily calories. I'm so glad you "verbalized" this because I have seen it in myself for a long time and really wondered if they were connected. For me, if I want a real view of how I'm doing in one of these areas, I look at how I'm doing in the other area and that usually answers it for me (especially if I'm having a hard time being objective in one area or the other). From there I start looking at what I need to do to make adjustments.
Well, for some reason this just made my day. LOL
What about finance management do you think influences the way you interact with food? I think this is very interesting.
Or do you think that it's not so much these two things are interrelated, but rather there's an underlying theme in your life that tends to influence both of these things simultaneously?
It's not so much that these are interrelated as it's an underlying theme. Interestingly, it's one of the themes I have been working on this year at an emotional level (vs. cognitive). I think it largely has to do with telling myself "no" or denying myself something I want. Wanting immediate gratification vs. delaying gratification for a greater goal. Why I think, or what does, happen if I deny myself something or delay gratification by delaying something I want? Quite a bit more in depth then that, but that's the basic underlying theme. That same thing would apply to finances much more today if not for the things I've learned from my husband and others about managing finances and avoiding debt. But I still manage to play the theme out by becoming lax in my budgeting or saving. It's a long standing theme. Thus the reason for my focus on it this past year because it definitely affects my ability to lose weight and maintain the loss.
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The only pattern for me was having a snack when I went out. I did it all the time way into my teens and I had to make myself stop about 10 years ago (still didn't stop me from getting obese though). That was a hard one to break, honestly (but it did help that there aren't bakeries at every corner in the US compared to France).
What did you find most helpful in the process of breaking this habit?Otherwise, that's pretty much it. I actually tend to vary my habits a lot - I try to eat when I'm hungry, so it's never at the same times, never the same foods, sometimes I have dessert after lunch or dinner, sometimes not... I did have the habit of wanting dessert though, but I think I've managed to break that one by just asking myself if I really needed it... and now usually the answer is no.
Sounds extremely sustainable. How's it working for you?
It's interesting that you find hunger hitting you at all different times. For many of my clients, and myself actually, I let hunger guide my eating. That being said, the vast majority of people tend to feel hunger at roughly the same times each day.
Maybe it has to do with the fact that you're seemingly eating a wide variety of things at random. Given that different foods satiate differently... your hunger pattern (if you want to call it a pattern) is variable.
Thanks for sharing.0 -
stroutman81 wrote: »The only pattern for me was having a snack when I went out. I did it all the time way into my teens and I had to make myself stop about 10 years ago (still didn't stop me from getting obese though). That was a hard one to break, honestly (but it did help that there aren't bakeries at every corner in the US compared to France).
What did you find most helpful in the process of breaking this habit?Otherwise, that's pretty much it. I actually tend to vary my habits a lot - I try to eat when I'm hungry, so it's never at the same times, never the same foods, sometimes I have dessert after lunch or dinner, sometimes not... I did have the habit of wanting dessert though, but I think I've managed to break that one by just asking myself if I really needed it... and now usually the answer is no.
Sounds extremely sustainable. How's it working for you?
It's interesting that you find hunger hitting you at all different times. For many of my clients, and myself actually, I let hunger guide my eating. That being said, the vast majority of people tend to feel hunger at roughly the same times each day.
Maybe it has to do with the fact that you're seemingly eating a wide variety of things at random. Given that different foods satiate differently... your hunger pattern (if you want to call it a pattern) is variable.
Thanks for sharing.
Honestly I don't really remember how I stopped snacking when I went out... I just tried to distract myself and say no I guess? It's still rough at times because I'm always looking up bakeries when I plan to go somewhere that isn't near my house! (I love baked goods, can't help it).
The following my hunger thing seems to work but it really varies depending on my cycle. I could eat the same thing at the same time one day and be hungry 5 hours later once, then 2 hours later the next day... it's just completely random. Obviously I have to try and make better choices too if I don't want to be starving within 2 hours (that's something I'm going to talk to with my doctor next week - I really seem to have blood sugar issues if I eat too many carbs).
So it's a process, but I did lose the weight and I've maintained for 2.5 years now. You just really have to ask yourself all the time if you REALLY want it, and logging before I eat (or even go buy/take the food) really helps me figuring out if it actually fits in my calories.1 -
ronjsteele1 wrote: »@stroutman81 I'm curious what arena of psych you practice in? My school background says psych (vs. sociology, psychiatry, etc). Whatever it is (and I missed many), you're very good at it.
Ha! Just figured out what you do. Interesting that you sound very much like a psychologist. You ask excellent questions for getting people to think about things underlying their eating issues.
My husband use to be your neighbor. He grew up in Wyndmoor. When we first met he use to talk about going to PTown all the time with friends, etc. We haven't been back there since 1996. That's probably a good thing since the freeways/expressways scare the crud out of me. LOL!
**Sorry for the interruption. Back to the original thread**0 -
The better others tell me I look, the further away from my "goal" I feel I am. A never ending cycle of chasing an illusive goal.0
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butterfli7o wrote: »I truly wish I had an answer on how to break certain patterns without it feeling "wrong" or "off." I have a pattern of instantly snacking on something when I get home from work at about 6pm (whether I'm truly hungry or not) and a pattern of "needing" something else later at night. I definitely feel that eating too much at night (when I'm too tired to care as much as I did during the day) is hindering my progress. I end up eating nibbles here and there. If I don't eat, I feel like my brain tricks me into thinking I'm hungry and I'm depriving myself, if that makes any sense.
I don't have a lot of calories to play with in the first place (short with not a whole ton to lose) so these snack patterns derail me.
As I discussed earlier... habits follow a sequence that goes trigger -> behavior ->reward.
If you're taking care of your physical hunger during the day so that it's not rampant by the time you get home, your snackiness is likely simply a pattern you've created to satisfy an emotional craving. Long day. Hard work. Stressful. Tired. Deserve a treat that helps soothe. Walk in the door at home (trigger). Eat something tasty (behavior). Yum (reward). Do that often enough, and even on the days where you're not tired and stressed and hungry... your brain's going to want to go down that path.
I think part of the solution, at least initially, is some introspection. What need is the snacking meeting? From there, you can start to find some alternative solutions that actually serve your best interest and goals.2 -
I'm still learning. I have gathered so much information now, that learning often is just about connecting the dotsstroutman81 wrote: »kommodevaran wrote: »It happens, but rarely (or, no - depending on how I interpret your question). I have experienced the metallic taste that tells you that you should have stopped a few bites ago - once or twice during the last three years. If I can't finish my meal, I stop, and put it in the garbage or in the fridge. I don't stop at "just satisfied" when there's still more on my plate.
It's hard to stop at satisfied when you can't feel it. I like the method of calling a timeout about halfway through the meal to check in with yourself and assess how you're feeling, remember to chew slowly and mindfully enjoy the texture and taste of what you're eating. And then once again, another time out when there are a few bites remaining. I wonder if something like this would create the space for more connectedness to how you're feeling.
Not that you need change. Sorry if I'm thrusting that on you. If you truly enjoy the system you're rocking now... by all means... rock it!My impression from these boards is that this is the most essential factor in the struggling.
I've been coaching people for nearly half my life and have found this to be the case.My body gives signals, I'm just slow to pick them up. My appetite is delayed - it usually peaks right after I've eaten And if I've eaten too much, I will feel the effect for several hours. I could slow down my eating, but I like to eat fast. I have Asperger's; it can be slow processing and/or lack of imagination, or unrelated, but anyway - I always look forward to eating, but still I'm always very surprised how tasty my meal is. Today, I started looking into that. Now I'm going to make an effort to anticipate the tastes and textures when I prepare the meal, so that my appetite gets a head start. It would be great to stop wanting more food as I take the last bite.
Awesome experiment. Please check back in and let us know what you learn.
Another thread reminded me - I have been chasing a phantom. What if I told you... there is no off-switch for hunger. Because there is no need for one. In nature, food is scarce, and we eat when it's available. A constant overabundance of food requires a differerent strategy, but we are intelligent and capable of adjusting to new environments. "Fullness" is not a sensation but a habit, a culturally aquired skill. Normal weight people just take what they need, eat it and enjoy it, they don't obsess over "am I still hungry, or am I full now, is this feeling I'm having now, satisfied, or am I closer to stuffed?". That's where I want to be too.
Yes, but I like it so it doesn't bother me. I don't want to chew each mouthful 30 times or use a stopwatchAnd yeah, if you feel the need to eat quickly... it's a tougher road. I've had clients go as far as to set timers while they eat to see if they could stretch it out a certain length of time. It has helped a lot. 1 -
One habit I've noticed is that once I get home for the day or get involved in things (video games, netflix, reading, whatever), I generally don't want to go back out. So I combat it by making sure I go to the gym (or for a walk, or whatever) right after work, and get my exercise done right after I wake up on the weekends so I don't have to convince myself to actually leave later in the day.1
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CattOfTheGarage wrote: »stroutman81 wrote: »CattOfTheGarage wrote: »I associate transport hubs - bus stations, railway stations, airports, service stations - with treats. As soon as I find myself somewhere like that I'm looking the the shiny display of crisps and sweets and reaching for my money.
A strange exception is the bus station where I catch the bus home. I don't go looking for treats there, AS LONG AS I stay in the draughty outside bit where you actually catch the buses. Apparently that's not junk food territory. But if I miss the bus and go to wait for the next one the precinct where the shops and information desks are, I'll be looking for treats.
And no, it's not just the visible presence of sweeties that does it - I'm not like this in shopping centres or supermarkets. It's something about travelling.
How often do you find yourself in transport hubs?
I'm in the bus station minimum 3 times a week, but only miss the bus rarely. Railway stations, service stations etc, much more rarely, maybe every few months. These patterns can be surprisingly enduring, though - I think I would have to spend years resisting snacks in those situations to completely erase the urge. Definitely harder to extinguish a conditioned behaviour than to establish one.
@CattOfTheGarage I completely agree. It sounds like it's not a factor that you're dealing with consistently enough to cause issues. Is that the case?
And newer research is painting a picture where resisting temptation isn't so much the key to goal attainment. Rather avoiding it altogether is.
Not always possible, understandably... but something to think about as we continue to construct patterns that keep old habits at bay as best possible.0
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