Do i need to drink protein after each work out?
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janejellyroll wrote: »rikkejanell2014 wrote: »Maybe top bodybuilders that is the case but you are doing weightloss as I understand. While losing weight you will not build muscle but protein and strength traisth
How do yoy figure i wont gain muscle?
Because you're losing weight -- you can't gain weight (which is what happens when you are building muscle) and lose it at the same time. To build muscle, you need a surplus of calories. To lose weight, you need to be in a deficit. You can only do one at a time.
@janejellyroll
No you don't need a surplus of calories or to be gaining weight to add gain muscle. It's important when fighting myths not to add more myths into the debate!
This would be worth you reading.
http://muscleandstrengthpyramids.com/calorie-deficit-gain-weight/
Very very weak. It just picks out various studies and says some people managed to add muscle while in defecit and vice versa. This is not groundbreaking. Im sure it has happened but the vast majority of the time you cant gain in a defecit. If you took an anorexic to the gym will they build muscle? Crude example but it the point
I think there's some context missing from this discussion as evidenced by your example.
Whether or not actual muscle gains will occur in a deficit depends a great deal on the training age of the individual and their level of body fat.
I would tend to think of this on a sliding scale of sorts
<overweight beginner - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -lean experienced athlete>
On the left, you're in an ideal position to gain muscle in a deficit. On the right, very unlikely.
And of course I'm drastically oversimplifying as there are other relevant pieces like program design, nutrient intake (deficit size for example), how well the individual responds to exercise, how well they partition nutrients, etc.
The irony in MFP is that most people say "you can't gain muscle in a deficit" and yet the audience that typically receives this advice are overweight beginners, and I don't say that with any judgement attached to it.
Finally, I'm not sure how much you know about the authors of that post you're claiming as weak, but they're some of the best in the industry quite literally.
Well you know I'm not gonna argue with you sir - got too much respect for ya mate. I was more playing devils advocate to be honest as I was getting narked by other comments. It felt like an article that has set out to find something remote. I.e. If I was to write an article saying it rains in the desert I could find some evidence I'm sure that it does - but 90% of the time it doesn't. (no one challenge that, its an example).
For me I have lost weight and not gained much muscle at all. I have strengthened muscles that were already there. Now I am trying to add cals to gain muscle...but apparently I shouldn't? The author is a bodybuilder and he did appear a bit weak as his wording were all 'some', 'a few' and 'maybe' - nothing wrong with his sources for the article
Just for the record, you are more than welcome to disagree/debate, I welcome it and I'm wrong a lot too just like anyone else. No harm there.
On this particular issue though I think the "you can't build muscle in a deficit" gets thrown around in many cases where it is likely incorrect.
I would say it depends also on the size of the defecit. You reckon a 1200 calorie a day person will add muscle mass over a period of time?
From my personal experience ... yes.
But 1250 not 1200.
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janejellyroll wrote: »rikkejanell2014 wrote: »Maybe top bodybuilders that is the case but you are doing weightloss as I understand. While losing weight you will not build muscle but protein and strength traisth
How do yoy figure i wont gain muscle?
Because you're losing weight -- you can't gain weight (which is what happens when you are building muscle) and lose it at the same time. To build muscle, you need a surplus of calories. To lose weight, you need to be in a deficit. You can only do one at a time.
@janejellyroll
No you don't need a surplus of calories or to be gaining weight to add gain muscle. It's important when fighting myths not to add more myths into the debate!
This would be worth you reading.
http://muscleandstrengthpyramids.com/calorie-deficit-gain-weight/
Very very weak. It just picks out various studies and says some people managed to add muscle while in defecit and vice versa. This is not groundbreaking. Im sure it has happened but the vast majority of the time you cant gain in a defecit. If you took an anorexic to the gym will they build muscle? Crude example but it the point
I think there's some context missing from this discussion as evidenced by your example.
Whether or not actual muscle gains will occur in a deficit depends a great deal on the training age of the individual and their level of body fat.
I would tend to think of this on a sliding scale of sorts
<overweight beginner - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -lean experienced athlete>
On the left, you're in an ideal position to gain muscle in a deficit. On the right, very unlikely.
And of course I'm drastically oversimplifying as there are other relevant pieces like program design, nutrient intake (deficit size for example), how well the individual responds to exercise, how well they partition nutrients, etc.
The irony in MFP is that most people say "you can't gain muscle in a deficit" and yet the audience that typically receives this advice are overweight beginners, and I don't say that with any judgement attached to it.
Finally, I'm not sure how much you know about the authors of that post you're claiming as weak, but they're some of the best in the industry quite literally.
Out of curiosity, doesn't sex play into it too? And age? And how steep the deficit is (which of course you mention)? I would think an overweight man in his 20s would be quite likely to gain muscle and lose fat, especially with the right diet (i.e., adequate protein) and training plan (progressive). I suspect that a woman, especially one in her 40s or over, would be less likely to, to the point of it being unlikely, and that increasingly so if she's doing a large deficit.
I mention this because -- although I am open to being wrong and respect your opinion a great deal so would tend to trust what you say -- I think even though on MFP most are untrained and overweight, most (like OP) are also women and many (although not OP, I don't think) are also older (30+, often 40s, 50s, 60s). Is it impossible for someone in these categories to gain some muscle when losing? I don't say much is impossible, so no, but is it something she should be expecting or counting on? No, I don't think so -- I think her goal normally should be maintaining muscle. (And I think OP is doing a steep deficit and aiming for 2 lb/week, so that effects this discussion too.)
Mostly the "you can't gain muscle in a deficit" comes up when someone worries about adding in weights because she doesn't want to gain weight (she's dieting!) or because she doesn't lose and someone assures her that she probably added muscle.
Anyway, for OP, I think the advice is the same whether she's trying to gain muscle or preserve it (eat adequate protein, keep up with the strength training, protein shakes don't matter (but are a fine source of protein if you enjoy them), and the "window" is not something to worry about), but I would warn her that she's not going to be doing any significant muscle building under current circumstances and that as she gets closer to goal that muscle building (or maintaining) and losing fast are going to be in conflict.1 -
janejellyroll wrote: »rikkejanell2014 wrote: »Maybe top bodybuilders that is the case but you are doing weightloss as I understand. While losing weight you will not build muscle but protein and strength traisth
How do yoy figure i wont gain muscle?
Because you're losing weight -- you can't gain weight (which is what happens when you are building muscle) and lose it at the same time. To build muscle, you need a surplus of calories. To lose weight, you need to be in a deficit. You can only do one at a time.
@janejellyroll
No you don't need a surplus of calories or to be gaining weight to add gain muscle. It's important when fighting myths not to add more myths into the debate!
This would be worth you reading.
http://muscleandstrengthpyramids.com/calorie-deficit-gain-weight/
Very very weak. It just picks out various studies and says some people managed to add muscle while in defecit and vice versa. This is not groundbreaking. Im sure it has happened but the vast majority of the time you cant gain in a defecit. If you took an anorexic to the gym will they build muscle? Crude example but it the point
I think there's some context missing from this discussion as evidenced by your example.
Whether or not actual muscle gains will occur in a deficit depends a great deal on the training age of the individual and their level of body fat.
I would tend to think of this on a sliding scale of sorts
<overweight beginner - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -lean experienced athlete>
On the left, you're in an ideal position to gain muscle in a deficit. On the right, very unlikely.
And of course I'm drastically oversimplifying as there are other relevant pieces like program design, nutrient intake (deficit size for example), how well the individual responds to exercise, how well they partition nutrients, etc.
The irony in MFP is that most people say "you can't gain muscle in a deficit" and yet the audience that typically receives this advice are overweight beginners, and I don't say that with any judgement attached to it.
Finally, I'm not sure how much you know about the authors of that post you're claiming as weak, but they're some of the best in the industry quite literally.
Well you know I'm not gonna argue with you sir - got too much respect for ya mate. I was more playing devils advocate to be honest as I was getting narked by other comments. It felt like an article that has set out to find something remote. I.e. If I was to write an article saying it rains in the desert I could find some evidence I'm sure that it does - but 90% of the time it doesn't. (no one challenge that, its an example).
For me I have lost weight and not gained much muscle at all. I have strengthened muscles that were already there. Now I am trying to add cals to gain muscle...but apparently I shouldn't? The author is a bodybuilder and he did appear a bit weak as his wording were all 'some', 'a few' and 'maybe' - nothing wrong with his sources for the article
Just for the record, you are more than welcome to disagree/debate, I welcome it and I'm wrong a lot too just like anyone else. No harm there.
On this particular issue though I think the "you can't build muscle in a deficit" gets thrown around in many cases where it is likely incorrect.
I would say it depends also on the size of the defecit. You reckon a 1200 calorie a day person will add muscle mass over a period of time? Maybe if the person is just below their maintenance they will build muscle over a period of time. I would have said providing the body with the right tools to do the job was key? Enlighten me
I think the overwhelming majority of the time people think they are eating 1200 calories they are not eating 1200 calories as evidenced by the rate at which people lose weight.
If you take someone with obesity, for example suppose they weigh 300lbs, and they actually eat 1200 calories they would lose weight at a VERY rapid pace. Yet this seldom happens because people eat more than they think they do.
Just listing these as examples:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12396160
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199212313272701
I'll also note that my experience coaching people points to this being true in the majority of people, myself included.
And so to your original question, most people (especially beginners) don't eat 1200 calorie diets. If they did, I would suspect that a small amount of muscle gain would occur in the obese because they are providing a new training stimulus. As they lose weight RAPIDLY I would expect that they would eventually start losing muscle because the deficit size is likely just too great and additionally at that calorie intake it's way harder to get in adequate protein.Also I will argue with you a bit. You may well be right, but with a newbie I would think it smart to keep it black and white without having to go into this grey area. Would you tell a newbie to eat in defecit and expect a muscle increase?
I disagree here. I think black and white thinking is usually not a good idea. It's important to remember that when using internet forums to communicate, you're not just communicating with 1 person. And so if I say to someone "you're not going to build muscle in a deficit because you can't", it might be accurate if I'm talking to lean athlete trying to get extremely lean, but it will be inaccurate if I'm talking to an overweight beginner. And that context matters especially given that hundreds (or thousands) of people are reading these messages, and that if I were to guess, a good portion of the population on myfitnesspal are overweight beginners -- in other words the exact population who is most likely to gain muscle in a deficit.
Additionally, telling someone "you can't build muscle in a deficit" OFTEN causes them to conclude that resistance training is useless. After all, if I can't build muscle why do it? Now of course you and I know that it's beneficial for muscle maintenance, but that's not the message that is often heard when we say "can't build muscle"
But to your original point, I think black and white thinking is usually (but not always) wrong.
To your final question, would I tell a newbie to eat in a deficit and expect a muscle increase?
That would depend on the programming, the diet, how overweight they are, etc. I do think MOST of the time, it does happen in that specific population.6 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »rikkejanell2014 wrote: »Maybe top bodybuilders that is the case but you are doing weightloss as I understand. While losing weight you will not build muscle but protein and strength traisth
How do yoy figure i wont gain muscle?
Because you're losing weight -- you can't gain weight (which is what happens when you are building muscle) and lose it at the same time. To build muscle, you need a surplus of calories. To lose weight, you need to be in a deficit. You can only do one at a time.
@janejellyroll
No you don't need a surplus of calories or to be gaining weight to add gain muscle. It's important when fighting myths not to add more myths into the debate!
This would be worth you reading.
http://muscleandstrengthpyramids.com/calorie-deficit-gain-weight/
Very very weak. It just picks out various studies and says some people managed to add muscle while in defecit and vice versa. This is not groundbreaking. Im sure it has happened but the vast majority of the time you cant gain in a defecit. If you took an anorexic to the gym will they build muscle? Crude example but it the point
I think there's some context missing from this discussion as evidenced by your example.
Whether or not actual muscle gains will occur in a deficit depends a great deal on the training age of the individual and their level of body fat.
I would tend to think of this on a sliding scale of sorts
<overweight beginner - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -lean experienced athlete>
On the left, you're in an ideal position to gain muscle in a deficit. On the right, very unlikely.
And of course I'm drastically oversimplifying as there are other relevant pieces like program design, nutrient intake (deficit size for example), how well the individual responds to exercise, how well they partition nutrients, etc.
The irony in MFP is that most people say "you can't gain muscle in a deficit" and yet the audience that typically receives this advice are overweight beginners, and I don't say that with any judgement attached to it.
Finally, I'm not sure how much you know about the authors of that post you're claiming as weak, but they're some of the best in the industry quite literally.
Out of curiosity, doesn't sex play into it too? And age? And how steep the deficit is (which of course you mention)? I would think an overweight man in his 20s would be quite likely to gain muscle and lose fat, especially with the right diet (i.e., adequate protein) and training plan (progressive). I suspect that a woman, especially one in her 40s or over, would be less likely to, to the point of it being unlikely, and that increasingly so if she's doing a large deficit.
I mention this because -- although I am open to being wrong and respect your opinion a great deal so would tend to trust what you say -- I think even though on MFP most are untrained and overweight, most (like OP) are also women and many (although not OP, I don't think) are also older (30+, often 40s, 50s, 60s). Is it impossible for someone in these categories to gain some muscle when losing? I don't say much is impossible, so no, but is it something she should be expecting or counting on? No, I don't think so -- I think her goal normally should be maintaining muscle. (And I think OP is doing a steep deficit and aiming for 2 lb/week, so that effects this discussion too.)
Mostly the "you can't gain muscle in a deficit" comes up when someone worries about adding in weights because she doesn't want to gain weight (she's dieting!) or because she doesn't lose and someone assures her that she probably added muscle.
Anyway, for OP, I think the advice is the same whether she's trying to gain muscle or preserve it (eat adequate protein, keep up with the strength training, protein shakes don't matter (but are a fine source of protein if you enjoy them), and the "window" is not something to worry about), but I would warn her that she's not going to be doing any significant muscle building under current circumstances and that as she gets closer to goal that muscle building (or maintaining) and losing fast are going to be in conflict.
Hopefully my previous post clarifies some of this but if not, let me know.
My point here for the most part is that writing it off as "you can't build muscle in a deficit" is just as wrong as saying "you're gaining muscle that's why the scale is stuck".
Yes you're right about age and gender, I listed some additional factors with the intent to illustrate that it's complex, it wasn't intended as a complete list.
I do disagree with the bolded. I think this statement DOES come up still, but I feel like the pendulum has swung way too far in the other direction and this thread is yet another example of it occurring outside of the context you mentioned in bold.
I also think that overweight beginners, even older females, can gain muscle especially if they are going from sedentary to actively resistance training. Not nearly as much as a younger male but the potential is still there.
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rikkejanell2014 wrote: »well I researched that you have 45 minutes to get protein in your system after doing workouts and weight training or it will break down the muscle you already have and that the protein powder gets in your system quicker
That research sounds like it's from a magazine.....1 -
I also think that overweight beginners, even older females, can gain muscle especially if they are going from sedentary to actively resistance training. Not nearly as much as a younger male but the potential is still there.
Can I ask your advice - do you think that former fitness plays into it at all? I've been in a slump, and certainly fit into the overweight middle-aged female beginner category, but I used to be a lot more muscly than I am. Not through weight-training, but other stuff. If I add resistance training to my moderate diet in the new year, and then, once I reach goal weight, keep up the training, could I expect improvement any more quickly than a woman who has never been muscly, or would past shape not play into it?0 -
I recommend canned ham cause I like it. No other reason and science be damned.6
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ShammersPink wrote: »I also think that overweight beginners, even older females, can gain muscle especially if they are going from sedentary to actively resistance training. Not nearly as much as a younger male but the potential is still there.
Can I ask your advice - do you think that former fitness plays into it at all? I've been in a slump, and certainly fit into the overweight middle-aged female beginner category, but I used to be a lot more muscly than I am. Not through weight-training, but other stuff. If I add resistance training to my moderate diet in the new year, and then, once I reach goal weight, keep up the training, could I expect improvement any more quickly than a woman who has never been muscly, or would past shape not play into it?
Absolutely at least as far as changes in muscle mass. Diet will obviously impact leanness.
People returning to training after a long layoff tend to get much faster results.2 -
Maybe top bodybuilders that is the case but you are doing weightloss as I understand. While losing weight you will not build muscle but protein and strength training will help you maintain and strengthen the muscle you have already
Woah woah woah. It is completely possible to build muscle while losing weight. This is a common misconception. You will need to get a body composition test and then after a few months get one again. One of my clients lost 19 lbs of fat and gained 3lbs of muscle. Complete success story and she looks great. It's not easy, but it is possible.
As to the op. Protein is a supplement and should be used as just that. Depending on what your overall goals are. A competitive powerlifter (like myself) will take in over 300-400grams per day. While someone who is trying to lean out and just build a moderate amount of muscle should stick with the rule of thumb .5g to 1g of protein per bound of desired body weight. Within reason.
So if you are 150lbs you should take in 150grams of protein if you desire to stay that weight. If cardio is your main focus then your glycogen stores are more important as you are using aerobic muscle and you can actually lower your protein intake to the .5g or 75grams per day. The old recommendation was that you should have no more than 35 to 50 grams per day. That is no longer the case.0 -
To the OP, I wouldn't recommend shakes at all unless she's having trouble meeting her protein goals.
I said that nutrient timing (getting protein immediately post workout before that anabolic window closes) is irrelevant to average lifters. What I meant by that is that unless you're an elite bodybuilder, you really don't need to worry about it. Just make sure you get enough protein, fat and fiber on the daily. You'll still make progress.
Getting into the minutiae to try to maximize gains only really matters for those who are competing in some way (whether on stage or in lifting meets) or approaching their genetic potential (at which point it becomes very difficult to make progress).
As for combining whey with casein, the idea there is that the fast digesting whey spikes muscle protein synthesis more quickly than casein alone could while the slow digesting casein sustains that synthesis over a longer period of time than whey alone.
Myself though, I don't like casein because the thick, foamy texture is just too much for me and it feels like punishment trying to choke it down.
I can handle it a little better mixed with whey (which is much much smoother) but I'm still not fond of it.
What I do then (and I don't always drink a post workout shake) is just take the whey with milk and follow it up later with another protein source (typically whatever meat is for supper that night). The casein in the milk and the proteins in my supper do a good enough job for what I need.2 -
natekorpusik wrote: »Maybe top bodybuilders that is the case but you are doing weightloss as I understand. While losing weight you will not build muscle but protein and strength training will help you maintain and strengthen the muscle you have already
Woah woah woah. It is completely possible to build muscle while losing weight. This is a common misconception. You will need to get a body composition test and then after a few months get one again. One of my clients lost 19 lbs of fat and gained 3lbs of muscle. Complete success story and she looks great. It's not easy, but it is possible.
As to the op. Protein is a supplement and should be used as just that. Depending on what your overall goals are. A competitive powerlifter (like myself) will take in over 300-400grams per day. While someone who is trying to lean out and just build a moderate amount of muscle should stick with the rule of thumb .5g to 1g of protein per bound of desired body weight. Within reason.
So if you are 150lbs you should take in 150grams of protein if you desire to stay that weight. If cardio is your main focus then your glycogen stores are more important as you are using aerobic muscle and you can actually lower your protein intake to the .5g or 75grams per day. The old recommendation was that you should have no more than 35 to 50 grams per day. That is no longer the case.
300-400g protein/day?
holy balls lol1 -
natekorpusik wrote: »Maybe top bodybuilders that is the case but you are doing weightloss as I understand. While losing weight you will not build muscle but protein and strength training will help you maintain and strengthen the muscle you have already
Woah woah woah. It is completely possible to build muscle while losing weight. This is a common misconception. You will need to get a body composition test and then after a few months get one again. One of my clients lost 19 lbs of fat and gained 3lbs of muscle. Complete success story and she looks great. It's not easy, but it is possible.
As to the op. Protein is a supplement and should be used as just that. Depending on what your overall goals are. A competitive powerlifter (like myself) will take in over 300-400grams per day. While someone who is trying to lean out and just build a moderate amount of muscle should stick with the rule of thumb .5g to 1g of protein per bound of desired body weight. Within reason.
So if you are 150lbs you should take in 150grams of protein if you desire to stay that weight. If cardio is your main focus then your glycogen stores are more important as you are using aerobic muscle and you can actually lower your protein intake to the .5g or 75grams per day. The old recommendation was that you should have no more than 35 to 50 grams per day. That is no longer the case.
300-400g protein/day?
holy balls lol
Rocky Mountain Oysters have that much protein??1 -
natekorpusik wrote: »Maybe top bodybuilders that is the case but you are doing weightloss as I understand. While losing weight you will not build muscle but protein and strength training will help you maintain and strengthen the muscle you have already
Woah woah woah. It is completely possible to build muscle while losing weight. This is a common misconception. You will need to get a body composition test and then after a few months get one again. One of my clients lost 19 lbs of fat and gained 3lbs of muscle. Complete success story and she looks great. It's not easy, but it is possible.
As to the op. Protein is a supplement and should be used as just that. Depending on what your overall goals are. A competitive powerlifter (like myself) will take in over 300-400grams per day. While someone who is trying to lean out and just build a moderate amount of muscle should stick with the rule of thumb .5g to 1g of protein per bound of desired body weight. Within reason.
So if you are 150lbs you should take in 150grams of protein if you desire to stay that weight. If cardio is your main focus then your glycogen stores are more important as you are using aerobic muscle and you can actually lower your protein intake to the .5g or 75grams per day. The old recommendation was that you should have no more than 35 to 50 grams per day. That is no longer the case.
300-400g protein/day?
holy balls lol
I can't help but feel that this is a slight exaggeration. The only people that would consume this much are extremely heavy PED users.
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rikkejanell2014 wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »It's very difficult to gain muscle while eating in a calorie deficit.
You can get stronger, but that is not the same as building new muscle tissue.
so you're saying my weight training is pointless
No, I said it was difficult. Some people do gain muscle, but the conditions for this are specific. Training and nutrient partitioning are important, for example.
Additionally, strength training is never in vain. Preserving the muscle you have is always important. Strength training along with adequate protein intake will help tip the balance of your weight loss in favor of fat being lost instead of muscle mass. It's also good for your bones. It's never pointless.2 -
natekorpusik wrote: »Maybe top bodybuilders that is the case but you are doing weightloss as I understand. While losing weight you will not build muscle but protein and strength training will help you maintain and strengthen the muscle you have already
Woah woah woah. It is completely possible to build muscle while losing weight. This is a common misconception. You will need to get a body composition test and then after a few months get one again. One of my clients lost 19 lbs of fat and gained 3lbs of muscle. Complete success story and she looks great. It's not easy, but it is possible.
As to the op. Protein is a supplement and should be used as just that. Depending on what your overall goals are. A competitive powerlifter (like myself) will take in over 300-400grams per day. While someone who is trying to lean out and just build a moderate amount of muscle should stick with the rule of thumb .5g to 1g of protein per bound of desired body weight. Within reason.
So if you are 150lbs you should take in 150grams of protein if you desire to stay that weight. If cardio is your main focus then your glycogen stores are more important as you are using aerobic muscle and you can actually lower your protein intake to the .5g or 75grams per day. The old recommendation was that you should have no more than 35 to 50 grams per day. That is no longer the case.
The op is not a competitive powerlifter as I know. Body recomposition is a completely different thing. I agree it is possble with BR but it is slower
Losing 19lbs of fat and gaining 3lbs of muscle isn't body recomposition....2 -
rikkejanell2014 wrote: »Also soy or whey?
A lot of people suggest eating protein within 30-minutes post work out, but that isn't really necessary if you are getting enough protein in your diet throughout the day. Many bodybuilders suggest .5-1g x your bodyweight. I usually get about 100g x day and I weight 118 lbs. After increasing my protein I definitely saw a difference in body composition though, I went from eating about 24g to eating 100g.0 -
Well if the idea it to utilize the optimum window, a slow digesting protein would be a poor choice.aquadolly_ wrote: »That's what I understood. That whey digests quickly but casein takes a longer time to digest. Casein supposedly make you feel fuller longer and feeds the muscles for a longer period of time versus whey alone.
Not that it really matters much, but general population see little significance in using the optimum window. It's just more important to get in enough protein throughout the day.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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lemurcat12 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »rikkejanell2014 wrote: »Maybe top bodybuilders that is the case but you are doing weightloss as I understand. While losing weight you will not build muscle but protein and strength traisth
How do yoy figure i wont gain muscle?
Because you're losing weight -- you can't gain weight (which is what happens when you are building muscle) and lose it at the same time. To build muscle, you need a surplus of calories. To lose weight, you need to be in a deficit. You can only do one at a time.
@janejellyroll
No you don't need a surplus of calories or to be gaining weight to add gain muscle. It's important when fighting myths not to add more myths into the debate!
This would be worth you reading.
http://muscleandstrengthpyramids.com/calorie-deficit-gain-weight/
Very very weak. It just picks out various studies and says some people managed to add muscle while in defecit and vice versa. This is not groundbreaking. Im sure it has happened but the vast majority of the time you cant gain in a defecit. If you took an anorexic to the gym will they build muscle? Crude example but it the point
I think there's some context missing from this discussion as evidenced by your example.
Whether or not actual muscle gains will occur in a deficit depends a great deal on the training age of the individual and their level of body fat.
I would tend to think of this on a sliding scale of sorts
<overweight beginner - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -lean experienced athlete>
On the left, you're in an ideal position to gain muscle in a deficit. On the right, very unlikely.
And of course I'm drastically oversimplifying as there are other relevant pieces like program design, nutrient intake (deficit size for example), how well the individual responds to exercise, how well they partition nutrients, etc.
The irony in MFP is that most people say "you can't gain muscle in a deficit" and yet the audience that typically receives this advice are overweight beginners, and I don't say that with any judgement attached to it.
Finally, I'm not sure how much you know about the authors of that post you're claiming as weak, but they're some of the best in the industry quite literally.
Out of curiosity, doesn't sex play into it too? And age? And how steep the deficit is (which of course you mention)? I would think an overweight man in his 20s would be quite likely to gain muscle and lose fat, especially with the right diet (i.e., adequate protein) and training plan (progressive). I suspect that a woman, especially one in her 40s or over, would be less likely to, to the point of it being unlikely, and that increasingly so if she's doing a large deficit.
I mention this because -- although I am open to being wrong and respect your opinion a great deal so would tend to trust what you say -- I think even though on MFP most are untrained and overweight, most (like OP) are also women and many (although not OP, I don't think) are also older (30+, often 40s, 50s, 60s). Is it impossible for someone in these categories to gain some muscle when losing? I don't say much is impossible, so no, but is it something she should be expecting or counting on? No, I don't think so -- I think her goal normally should be maintaining muscle. (And I think OP is doing a steep deficit and aiming for 2 lb/week, so that effects this discussion too.)
Mostly the "you can't gain muscle in a deficit" comes up when someone worries about adding in weights because she doesn't want to gain weight (she's dieting!) or because she doesn't lose and someone assures her that she probably added muscle.
Anyway, for OP, I think the advice is the same whether she's trying to gain muscle or preserve it (eat adequate protein, keep up with the strength training, protein shakes don't matter (but are a fine source of protein if you enjoy them), and the "window" is not something to worry about), but I would warn her that she's not going to be doing any significant muscle building under current circumstances and that as she gets closer to goal that muscle building (or maintaining) and losing fast are going to be in conflict.
Hopefully my previous post clarifies some of this but if not, let me know.
Yeah, it was helpful.
I will say (although with deference to your experience) that many people on MFP are actually eating 1200 (I agree that studies indicate that people consistently eat more than they think and that some of the VLCD studies in particular look more like people are eating what isn't really a VLCD -- their rate of loss was less than 2 lb/week despite being obese). But I digress!
Here, for example, OP has stated (in another thread) that she's losing at a rate of 9 lb/month. Similarly, when I started (not recommending this) I lost around 2.5-3 lb/week. I was quite obese, yes, but also told by MFP I'd lose 1.8 lb at 1200. I think I WAS eating around 1200 (goal was 1250), but also that my base activity level was higher than I realized. I see losses here that make me think that's not uncommon.
I was untrained, I was fat, no idea -- and this is the case for most, I think -- whether I gained any muscle or recomped when losing my first 50 lbs or so. Doubt it, but who knows. What I do know is I lost some muscle during my weight loss after that despite doing (more seriously) progressive strength training and gaining strength and despite eating plenty of protein (more than 1 g per lb of LBM, usually more like 1.2 g) when going from around 155 (overweight, not obese) to 125. Possibly because I kept my loss rate at around 1-1.5 lb for the first half of that, around 1 lb for the second half (but still that's no more than 1%), possibly some other reason (I was 44, I was female, I don't think I'm naturally prone to putting on muscle anyway, always been on the slighter side when thin so not in the returning to form category, who knows). But learning this (I did a DEXA and bought the "test again within 6 months" offer they had) was surprisingly disappointing to me even though I had improved my BF% a lot and even though I knew it was likely. So I guess I want people to be realistic about what is going to happen.My point here for the most part is that writing it off as "you can't build muscle in a deficit" is just as wrong as saying "you're gaining muscle that's why the scale is stuck".
In theory, I agree. With respect to the advice to this particular OP, what she should do doesn't change whether she can gain muscle or not, does it? With respect to her efforts to gain muscle I guess what I'd recommend is "you are unlikely to gain appreciable muscle when losing weight, especially if you are focused on doing it as fast as possible, but you can take some steps to make it more likely which will at least help a lot by helping you preserve the muscle you have: (1) add in a progressive strength training program if you aren't already doing it, (2) keep protein up, around .8 g/lb of healthy goal weight is a good general estimate if it's not too hard for you, and (3) don't make fast weight loss the #1 thing, especially once you are out of the obese range -- slower loss makes it more likely you will maintain muscle and maybe even gain some. It's easier to gain and maintain muscle in this way the more overweight/obese you are and if you are younger, male, and/or untrained.
How's that?1 -
To add to the post. It will be unlikely for the OP to gain muscle in a deficit. Based on her current weight loss (per week) and it doesn't sound (IIRC) like she is following a progressive overload workout, it would be unlikely for her to gain muscle. If the OP reduces the size of her deficit, follows a progressive overload program, than it may be possible to gain a lb or two of muscle. More importantly, it would give a better opportunity to at least sustain it.
Now, the timing is a bit less beneficial, but if you are trying to major in the minors and provide every opportunity to grow muscle, than there might be some benefit to do a pre- or post- workout of some PRO and CHO (this is pending the total intake and daily requirements are already addressed). CHO for the purposes of being anti-catabolic (prevent protein breakdown) and PRO to rebuild muscle mass.2
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