What is the right amount of protein?

So, while the cited studies are interesting based on activity determining your protein requirements...I'd love to know the age ranges of the study subjects. Seems there are a number of studies that are starting to recognize that your age may also be a factor when trying to determine optimal protein levels.

I swear I saw someone post a study out of Australia that looked at protein requirements as you get older. In a nutshell, it stated that while the US RDA and other minimums of .8g/1kg was probably fine for 20 year olds, but as you aged to 40 or older, you actually needed more protein than the minimum and possibly needed up to double the minimums. I thought the high end of the scale was something like 1.6/1kg for those over 60. Unfortunately, I've never been able to find that post or found the link to the original study again (and would love to have it). Does anyone know/remember what I'm referencing? I regret not bookmarking it when I read it.

Just posted this on another thread but it is relevant to this discussion (especially if you are a young, overweight, male, interested in fat loss and muscle gain).

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/103/3/738.full

GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »

Here's a separate question... how much is too much? I find protein to be the most filling macro (combined with fiber/starch), so I tend to go high with it for that reason.

I routinely have a CBC done twice a year by my rheumy and everything's fine, so I'm assuming no harm, no foul.

If you're water intake is sufficient and renal system healthy I don't know if there is a maximum. The only adverse effects I know of are where bodybuilders continue to ingest 300g and restrict water in their pre-competition routines and this causes kidney damage.

jgnatca wrote: »

I treat protein intake as a minimum. The only consequence I've experienced from loads of protein is constipation.

Thanks for mentioning that - I've upped mine about 30% the past few days, and have had...issues. That just might be it.

hotel4dogs wrote: »

I have a degenerative muscle disease and I see a big name neuromuscular specialist at a big university hospital. When figuring out my protein requirements ( which are higher than for a normal, health person) he used lean body mass, not body mass. It's an important distinction when figuring protein requirements, you can't just take your weight and multiply it by some number. Fat doesn't need protein!

Since you have a health condition, you have special requirements, and special medical help in meeting them - in which I wish you all success.

Many of us, without such special conditions, use "X grams per pound of healthy body weight (or goal weight)" as a rough approximation of protein needs. Typically, if the person using such an approximation is paying attention:

1. They've noted the difference between kg and lb; between LBM and body weight; and between current body weight and healthy body weight; and they adjust accordingly when comparing figures, reading research, etc.
2. They've adjusted the number of g/lb such that it's lower than the number of g/lb they'd recommend if the pounds were LBM rather than healthy body weight. This simplification is building in an assumption about what percentage of a healthy body weight is LBM. Though this assumption is probably incorrect if taken literally, it yields an approximate protein goal that's adequately accurate for most people without special health conditions, and which is less intimidating for newbies to use (because most have no idea of their LBM, but can figure out a healthy goal weight).
3. They've recognized that fat doesn't require protein for maintenance, which is why they're saying (or - yikes - meaning without saying) "healthy body weight" vs. "current body weight".

The above points tend to get lost in the conversational fog, because of the differences in the actual level of protein different people recommend. For example, someone can be saying "0.8g per kg" based on the mainstream RDA recommendations, or "0.8g per pound" when referring to LBM, or "0.8g per pound" when referring to healthy/goal weight - any of which, though they differ, can be argued, and all of which coincidentally involve the same "0.8" number.

(edited to fix typos - sigh.)

sgrathwol wrote: »

Thank you everyone for the respectable comments! i didnt aim for this to get heated. Something i gain form this is that me being a hard gainer i may need more protein in my diet not just a %. Everyone is different (macros anyways). And supplements are just that, supplements to the diet! Thank you again all! so knowledgable.

http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10326769/are-you-a-hard-gainer-please-read/p1

If you think you are a hard gainer, read the above.

psuLemon wrote: »

b3achy wrote: »

So, while the cited studies are interesting based on activity determining your protein requirements...I'd love to know the age ranges of the study subjects. Seems there are a number of studies that are starting to recognize that your age may also be a factor when trying to determine optimal protein levels.

I swear I saw someone post a study out of Australia that looked at protein requirements as you get older. In a nutshell, it stated that while the US RDA and other minimums of .8g/1kg was probably fine for 20 year olds, but as you aged to 40 or older, you actually needed more protein than the minimum and possibly needed up to double the minimums. I thought the high end of the scale was something like 1.6/1kg for those over 60. Unfortunately, I've never been able to find that post or found the link to the original study again (and would love to have it). Does anyone know/remember what I'm referencing? I regret not bookmarking it when I read it.

Is this the one you were thinking of: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11382798 ? Pretty much confirms the RDA is too fricken low.

As this thread has been revived, I thought I'd post some articles that I found per age and protein. Looks like I was a little high in my previous comment and the current body of evidence is mostly saying ~1.2 g/kg for older folks (65+yo), though some special circumstances would push it up to 2.0 g/kg. However, there is the note that if the person has known kidney issues and isn't on dialysis, then less protein than 1.2 g/kg is recommended.

This still isn't the one I wanted, but it's closer and has two of the three tables I remember from the other article (2015 Aug 14):
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4555150/
Conclusion: "...recent metabolic and epidemiological studies indicate that the current Recommended Dietary Intakes for protein appear to be inadequate for maintenance of physical function and optimal health in older adults. The current body of evidence indicates that a dietary protein intake of at least 1.2 g/kg/day is required to maintain optimal muscle function in older people." (Older people being 65+)

Here's another article on higher levels of protein needed (2016 Aug 11):
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4997405/
Conclusion: "In conclusion, the current recommendations for protein intake in elderly based on the nitrogen balance data are potentially underestimates. The IAAO method presents an alternative to nitrogen balance for the derivation of dietary protein requirements. The estimates for protein requirements in both elderly men and women were derived to be 0.9 and 1.2 g/kg/day as the EAR and RDA, respectively."

And one more article (2016 Jun 8):
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4924200/
"Experts in the field of protein and aging recommend a protein intake between 1.2 and 2.0 g/kg/day or higher for elderly adults. The RDA of 0.8 g/kg/day is well below these recommendations and reflects a value at the lowest end of the AMDR. It is estimated that 38% of adult men and 41% of adult women have dietary protein intakes below the RDA."

Here's a slightly older article that provides some specific recommendations for increased protein intake for older people (August 2013):
http://www.jamda.com/article/S1525-8610(13)00326-5/fulltext
"Key PROT-AGE recommendations for dietary protein intake in older adults
•To maintain physical function, older people need more dietary protein than do younger people; older people should consume an average daily intake at least in the range of 1.0 to 1.2 g/kg BW/d.
•Most older adults who have an acute or chronic disease need even more dietary protein (ie, 1.2–1.5 g/kg BW/d); people with severe illness or injury or with marked malnutrition may need as much as 2.0 g/kg BW/d.
•Older people with severe kidney disease who are not on dialysis (ie, estimated GFR < 30 mL/min/1.73m2) are an exception to the high-protein rule; these individuals need to limit protein intake.
•Protein quality, timing of intake, and amino acid supplementation may be considered so as to achieve the greatest benefits from protein intake, but further studies are needed to make explicit recommendations.
•In combination with increased protein intake, exercise is recommended at individualized levels that are safe and tolerated."

I will eventually find that other study with the table I remember. I liked it because the recommendations started much lower than just 65+ like in these studies I posted (I want to say the increase in protein over the RDA was recommended for those starting around 40yo, and the protein increased as you got older up to 70+).

I'm 66, weigh 160# and consume twice the amount of protein recommended for us "older" folks at an average of 181g per day or 1.13/#BW or 2.49g/kg BW and have been doing this for over 7 months w/o any dietary or medical problems.

I have documented that eating this much protein has preserved (and sometimes increased) my LBM on a deficit diet and has contributed to my increased strength lifting weights progressively over the same period of time to supposedly "advanced" and "elite" strength levels (for men of my age and weight) as determined by various published strength charts.

So, in my view, the recommended levels of protein consumption (especially for older people) is grossly understated. These recommendations are MINIMUM standards only and do not say anything regarding how much protein may be "too much" for someone to eat, given their particular dietary and medical circumstances.

sgt1372 wrote: »

sgrathwol wrote: »

Still hard to stay as i want to keep seeing progress but if 1g/lb is enough then i probably should do that to not waste $$$, what do you all think/

Unless you have a specific protein related medical problem, I do not believe there is any such thing as eating "too much" protein.

You can derive protein from many sources and many of those are no more expensive than fruit or vegetables. I can buy chicken with 123g protein/# for as little as 69-99 cents/lb. Fruit and veggies can cost me much more than that and they don't have any protein in them.

Any excess protein that your body cannot use is converted to glucose and used to fuel the energy needs of your body and you will not get fat eating excess protein (or carbs or fat for that matter) unless you are eating in a surplus.

On the other hand, you will not be able to grow LBM/muscle unless you have enough protein to do so. Also, since protein is relatively difficult to digest such that it reduces appetite and consumes more energy in the process, which contributes to weight loss.

Nothing "wrong" with any of this from my POV.

sgt1372 wrote: »

sgrathwol wrote: »

Still hard to stay as i want to keep seeing progress but if 1g/lb is enough then i probably should do that to not waste $$$, what do you all think/

Unless you have a specific protein related medical problem, I do not believe there is any such thing as eating "too much" protein.

You can derive protein from many sources and many of those are no more expensive than fruit or vegetables. I can buy chicken with 123g protein/# for as little as 69-99 cents/lb. Fruit and veggies can cost me much more than that and they don't have any protein in them.

Any excess protein that your body cannot use is converted to glucose and used to fuel the energy needs of your body and you will not get fat eating excess protein (or carbs or fat for that matter) unless you are eating in a surplus.

On the other hand, you will not be able to grow LBM/muscle unless you have enough protein to do so. Also, since protein is relatively difficult to digest such that it reduces appetite and consumes more energy in the process, which contributes to weight loss.

Nothing "wrong" with any of this from my POV.

sgt1372 wrote: »

sgrathwol wrote: »

Still hard to stay as i want to keep seeing progress but if 1g/lb is enough then i probably should do that to not waste $$$, what do you all think/

Unless you have a specific protein related medical problem, I do not believe there is any such thing as eating "too much" protein.

You can derive protein from many sources and many of those are no more expensive than fruit or vegetables. I can buy chicken with 123g protein/# for as little as 69-99 cents/lb. Fruit and veggies can cost me much more than that and they don't have any protein in them.

Any excess protein that your body cannot use is converted to glucose and used to fuel the energy needs of your body and you will not get fat eating excess protein (or carbs or fat for that matter) unless you are eating in a surplus.

On the other hand, you will not be able to grow LBM/muscle unless you have enough protein to do so. Also, since protein is relatively difficult to digest such that it reduces appetite and consumes more energy in the process, which contributes to weight loss.

Nothing "wrong" with any of this from my POV.

I agree that it's not necessarily wrong.

Bringing protein down could be potentially cost saving when you compare it to things like rice and could improve the overall enjoyment of the diet if he finds additional carbs preferable.

My experience with others suggests this is "usually" true but not universally true.

Christine_72 wrote: »

We're on a tight budget at the moment, and i have seen my protein grams plummet. Carbs are so much cheaper I have gone from high protein, moderate carbs to High carbs, low protein. It really does suck!

Have you considered plant based proteins or buying in bulk?

psuLemon wrote: »

Christine_72 wrote: »

We're on a tight budget at the moment, and i have seen my protein grams plummet. Carbs are so much cheaper I have gone from high protein, moderate carbs to High carbs, low protein. It really does suck!

Have you considered plant based proteins or buying in bulk?

I relied on protein powder a lot (and steak), but a $50 tub(1kg) only lasts me 2 weeks, and it is just not feasible at the moment.
As for the plant based protein, we do have lentils/beans and such in the cupboard but I've never really cooked with things like that before, might have to go recipe searching.

Christine_72 wrote: »

psuLemon wrote: »

Christine_72 wrote: »

We're on a tight budget at the moment, and i have seen my protein grams plummet. Carbs are so much cheaper I have gone from high protein, moderate carbs to High carbs, low protein. It really does suck!

Have you considered plant based proteins or buying in bulk?

I relied on protein powder a lot (and steak), but a $50 tub(1kg) only lasts me 2 weeks, and it is just not feasible at the moment.
As for the plant based protein, we do have lentils/beans and such in the cupboard but I've never really cooked with things like that before, might have to go recipe searching.

I'd encourage this. Dry beans (and lentils, peas, etc.) are especially affordable, and beans generally are versatile and delicious. I make giant batches (fairly plain, usually just some onions & salt) and freeze them in reasonable portion sizes. At thaw time, I doctor them up as needed. Eat as a soup/side, use them to thicken "cream" soups, put some on a salad (or use them as the base for a mostly-bean salad), put them in lasagna or other pasta dishes, combine them with the rice, make tacos/burritos/enchiladas, create DYI hummus or other bean dips, make minestrone, bean omelets, chili, bean shepherd's pie . . . .

Oops - digression. Sorry!