Yet another study shows no weight loss benefit for low-carb
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While not a low-carber myself, I've read that its theoretically effective for stubborn fat (apparently keeping plasma fatty acids high inhibits alpha-2 receptors on stubborn fat). So, I'd like to see a study comparing the diets in lean people getting leaner. You'd expect better body composition going keto. You wouldn't expect a difference in individuals with a big surplus of fat mass (as in this study).4
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While not a low-carber myself, I've read that its theoretically effective for stubborn fat (apparently keeping plasma fatty acids high inhibits alpha-2 receptors on stubborn fat). So, I'd like to see a study comparing the diets in lean people getting leaner. You'd expect better body composition going keto. You wouldn't expect a difference in individuals with a big surplus of fat mass (as in this study).
I'd not be shocked, but honestly when I am to the point of trying to get rid of that last bit of fat, I'm restricting the hell out of carbs and fats. So yeah, I am in ketosis, but my calories are so restricted that it's gotta come from somewhere anyway.5 -
Another nail in the Keto Koffin, so to speak.
(Seriously I am not anti-keto--I just really, really wanted an excuse to type Keto Koffin)
https://www.bemorenutrition.com/2017/01/20/low-fat-vs-low-carb-which-is-better-for-fat-loss-research-review/
If you don't want to follow the link--study showed (again) no weight loss difference between high fat/low carb and high(ish) carb/low fat when calorie/protein intake the same.
I don't understand how this nails shut the keto koffin? If it did anything, it solidifies that LCHF is a sustainable alternative to the LFHC weight loss push. Additionally these subjects were eating > 50 carbs which may mean keto levels were never truly obtained, and this was specific to men.
There are other studies showing that there is no metabolic advantage to ketogenic low carb diets over non-ketogenic low carb diets: http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/research-review/ketogenic-low-carbohydrate-diets-have-no-metabolic-advantage-over-nonketogenic-low-carbohydrate-diets-research-review.html/3 -
What do you all think of Dr. Peter Attia's experience? He claims to have gone from 195 to 170 while increasing his calories from about 3200 cals/day (carb heavy) to 4300 cals/day (keto) while keeping exercise constant or even decreasing exercise some (he worked out 3-4 hrs/day and is an endurance athlete)? I have no reason to doubt him.
See:
http://eatingacademy.com/how-i-lost-weight
Also see below on effects of his keto diet on his athletic performance:
http://eatingacademy.com/how-a-low-carb-diet-affected-my-athletic-performance
No one can say this man doesn't know his science on this subject (he doesn't know all obviously but is well educated on the topic).
I don't do keto but it does seem to me there is something to it.2 -
What do you all think of Dr. Peter Attia's experience? He claims to have gone from 195 to 170 while increasing his calories from about 3200 cals/day (carb heavy) to 4300 cals/day (keto) while keeping exercise constant or even decreasing exercise some (he worked out 3-4 hrs/day and is an endurance athlete)? I have no reason to doubt him.
See:
http://eatingacademy.com/how-i-lost-weight
Also see below on effects of his keto diet on his athletic performance:
http://eatingacademy.com/how-a-low-carb-diet-affected-my-athletic-performance
No one can say this man doesn't know his science on this subject (he doesn't know all obviously but is well educated on the topic).
I don't do keto but it does seem to me there is something to it.
Science does. Physics doesn't work that way.9 -
snowflake954 wrote: »
Indeed, you are in rare form today, sir8 -
What do you all think of Dr. Peter Attia's experience? He claims to have gone from 195 to 170 while increasing his calories from about 3200 cals/day (carb heavy) to 4300 cals/day (keto) while keeping exercise constant or even decreasing exercise some (he worked out 3-4 hrs/day and is an endurance athlete)? I have no reason to doubt him.
See:
http://eatingacademy.com/how-i-lost-weight
Also see below on effects of his keto diet on his athletic performance:
http://eatingacademy.com/how-a-low-carb-diet-affected-my-athletic-performance
No one can say this man doesn't know his science on this subject (he doesn't know all obviously but is well educated on the topic).
I don't do keto but it does seem to me there is something to it.
Science does. Physics doesn't work that way.
Explain your comment, "physics doesn't work that way" please. The CICO model doesn't take into account excretion. If it did, then you can see that no conservation of energy principles are violated. Do you think he was lying or made gross errors in his logging?
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What do you all think of Dr. Peter Attia's experience? He claims to have gone from 195 to 170 while increasing his calories from about 3200 cals/day (carb heavy) to 4300 cals/day (keto) while keeping exercise constant or even decreasing exercise some (he worked out 3-4 hrs/day and is an endurance athlete)? I have no reason to doubt him.
See:
http://eatingacademy.com/how-i-lost-weight
Also see below on effects of his keto diet on his athletic performance:
http://eatingacademy.com/how-a-low-carb-diet-affected-my-athletic-performance
No one can say this man doesn't know his science on this subject (he doesn't know all obviously but is well educated on the topic).
I don't do keto but it does seem to me there is something to it.
For me, there is something to it. It isn't a huge advantage but it seems to boost my CO a bit. I lose faster at a LCHF diet than a higher carb diet. I went with close to my calculated calories for losing 1.5 lbs per week. It was set at 1420 kcal but I ate an average of 1500kcal. I lost 2-3 lbs per week, excluding the first few weeks when I lost even more. That's over a 1000kcal deficit per day.... I doubt my TDEE is somewhere between 2500 and 3000kcal - keto seems to agree with my body. BUT I am one of those people in keto for the theraputic effects. I tend to lose better when my health improves.
There's something to it for me. For others, the appetite lowering effects is enough. For those who don't experience the reduced appetite and have no theraputic need of a ketogenic diet, they don't stick with it for long, and why would they?
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Dr Attia- His update in March 2016...
These days I’m eating about as freely as I have in 7 years. I’m still carb-restricted by the standards of most Americans, but nowhere near the ketogenic lines of 2011, 2012, and 2013. I almost always skip breakfast, and lunch is usually a salad (“in a bowl larger than my head,” if possible). Dinner is usually a serving of meat with more salad and veggies. I’m more liberal on fruit and even occasionally rice or potatoes. Also, in moments of weakness I sometimes lean into my kid’s crappy food.
Doesn't seem like he stayed Keto. I wonder why?
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leanjogreen18 wrote: »Dr Attia- His update in March 2016...
These days I’m eating about as freely as I have in 7 years. I’m still carb-restricted by the standards of most Americans, but nowhere near the ketogenic lines of 2011, 2012, and 2013. I almost always skip breakfast, and lunch is usually a salad (“in a bowl larger than my head,” if possible). Dinner is usually a serving of meat with more salad and veggies. I’m more liberal on fruit and even occasionally rice or potatoes. Also, in moments of weakness I sometimes lean into my kid’s crappy food.
Doesn't seem like he stayed Keto. I wonder why?
I know he has changed his diet. I don't remember him explaining why but it doesn't change what happened to him when he lost his weight. I think he likes carbs probably and might think he is missing out on some micro-nutrients going keto. I don't know. I don't plan on going keto for those reasons unless I need to for a medical condition.1 -
I'm on a low carb diet not keto. I'm no expert so I can be wrong. I don't like keto because you have to cut out fruits , vegetables and yogurt etc. They're super foods that benefit your health enormously. I'm eating whole food and I've cut out starches such as bread, sugar, fast food, rice, noodles, anything that has light or diet label on, soda and flour etc... I can never cut out food that benefits my overall health. I started Dec26, my body fat was 36% and I'm now at 25.2%. I still eat within my calorie each day to lose my water weight as it's still high at 55%.
What I'm trying to point out is that I'm more focused on my health than just weight loss. Sure, you will lose weight by cutting out all the carbs and eat fried chicken every day but how's it good for your heart and other organs? In my opinion, doing keto diet is like you're robbing your health to look good.8 -
nomorepuke wrote: »I'm on a low carb diet not keto. I'm no expert so I can be wrong. I don't like keto because you have to cut out fruits , vegetables and yogurt etc. They're super foods that benefit your health enormously. I'm eating whole food and I've cut out starches such as bread, sugar, fast food, rice, noodles, anything that has light or diet label on, soda and flour etc... I can never cut out food that benefits my overall health. I started Dec26, my body fat was 36% and I'm now at 25.2%. I still eat within my calorie each day to lose my water weight as it's still high at 55%.
What I'm trying to point out is that I'm more focused on my health than just weight loss. Sure, you will lose weight by cutting out all the carbs and eat fried chicken every day but how's it good for your heart and other organs? In my opinion, doing keto diet is like you're robbing your health to look good.
I feel similarly unless you have a medical condition that requires keto.1 -
leanjogreen18 wrote: »Dr Attia- His update in March 2016...
These days I’m eating about as freely as I have in 7 years. I’m still carb-restricted by the standards of most Americans, but nowhere near the ketogenic lines of 2011, 2012, and 2013. I almost always skip breakfast, and lunch is usually a salad (“in a bowl larger than my head,” if possible). Dinner is usually a serving of meat with more salad and veggies. I’m more liberal on fruit and even occasionally rice or potatoes. Also, in moments of weakness I sometimes lean into my kid’s crappy food.
Doesn't seem like he stayed Keto. I wonder why?
He found he did not need it any longer. Those who stick with keto tend to do so for theraputic reasons. His insulin resistance was largely resolved. He increased his carbs (to about 100g if I remember right) and feels good there. He still recommends low carb to the clients in his practices, which is focused on longevity at this time.
Many people who try and stay keto feel a need for it. Why else would people walk away from high GI fruits like mangos and raisens, or avoid baked goods like muffines or scones? It isn't because it is easier or more fun, although some may try it for the challenge.
And those who don't have a good reason for keto (anymore) stop doing it.4 -
^^interesting, thanks.
He wears some sort of watch that monitors his glucose I think I read.1 -
What do you all think of Dr. Peter Attia's experience? He claims to have gone from 195 to 170 while increasing his calories from about 3200 cals/day (carb heavy) to 4300 cals/day (keto) while keeping exercise constant or even decreasing exercise some (he worked out 3-4 hrs/day and is an endurance athlete)? I have no reason to doubt him.
See:
http://eatingacademy.com/how-i-lost-weight
Also see below on effects of his keto diet on his athletic performance:
http://eatingacademy.com/how-a-low-carb-diet-affected-my-athletic-performance
No one can say this man doesn't know his science on this subject (he doesn't know all obviously but is well educated on the topic).
I don't do keto but it does seem to me there is something to it.
Science does. Physics doesn't work that way.
Explain your comment, "physics doesn't work that way" please. The CICO model doesn't take into account excretion. If it did, then you can see that no conservation of energy principles are violated. Do you think he was lying or made gross errors in his logging?
Just to clarify, are you saying that high fat low carb diets cause you to poop out some of the calories rather than absorbing them?
I suppose that's possible, but if it's more than a small proportion I'd expect unpleasant, Alli-like side effects.8 -
I am eating keto level carbs (20g and under) and I get my blood work done next month and I will be able to compare it to my last ones. I am interested to see if my cholesterol and triglyceride levels have risen and if they have then I will be modifying something...maybe more olive/avocado oil in place of coconut? We shall see. As for the way of eating itself I am aware that cico is what it's all about to begin with, but I do find this way of eating easier to adhere to for cico for me. I do plan on bringing myself back up to 100 - 150 carbs per day, but not until I have lost most of the weight I plan to lose and then I will reintroduce more carbs slowly, and yes I am aware of the weight I most likely will put back on at first (ie water/glycerol stores) or maybe that doesn't happen when you reintroduce slowly. For me this way of eating has also curbed my cravings for cake, ice cream, donuts, and potato chips, I am concerned about self control when I do eat these things again as I've been known to go a bit overboard with eating them.4
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Just a nitpicky thing because I think it is important for discussion:As for the way of eating itself I am aware that cico is what it's all about to begin with, but I do find this way of eating easier to adhere to for cico for me.
You know that CICO merely refers to the fact that calories in vs. calories out determines whether you lose, gain, or maintain, and that you can achieve CI<CO through any diet and it is still CICO. People say you don't need to do anything but focus on CICO, but that doesn't mean there's a "CICO" way of eating that could be easier or harder to adhere to than keto -- keto, when it works, is also working because of CICO. Some people seem to have the idea that CICO = calorie counting or even that it is some particular macro mix or "not changing the diet at all but for portions," and it is none of these things (although they all could be examples of it, as keto also is). IMO, trying to cut calories by not changing the diet at all but for portions, especially if you know you eat a not very filling or nutrient dense diet would of course be hard and no one recommends it (except if people really want to do it they are told they can). Even "eat what you like/currently do in smaller portions" assumes common sense and that you will cut more on portions of high cal/low nutrient things and not, for example, meat and veg.I do plan on bringing myself back up to 100 - 150 carbs per day, but not until I have lost most of the weight I plan to lose and then I will reintroduce more carbs slowly, and yes I am aware of the weight I most likely will put back on at first (ie water/glycerol stores) or maybe that doesn't happen when you reintroduce slowly. For me this way of eating has also curbed my cravings for cake, ice cream, donuts, and potato chips, I am concerned about self control when I do eat these things again as I've been known to go a bit overboard with eating them.
I also think it's interesting that the "carbs" people tend to focus on as not filling or things they cut on low carb and notice most are things that get half their calories from carbs -- these are hardly "carbs" (although I am sure they are too high carb for keto diets) but simply "junk food" (meaning high cal, low nutrient), and like most "junk foods" they are high in fat as well as carbs. I wonder if you went to 100-150 carbs with whole food carbs like legumes, potatoes and sweet potatoes (not fried or with lots of added cream and butter), whole grains, and fruit if you would find the same cravings for more food. Maybe you would, maybe you won't, maybe that won't even happen with the junk food once you've taken a break from it and found you are more interested in maintaining than a second donut. But if it's simply carbs that cause the diet to be less sating/cravings to happen, that would happen more from foods that actually are mostly carbs than these fat/carb mixes, I think.
IMO, lots of people who go keto dumb high cal/low nutrient foods (fat and carbs) by necessity and have to fill their diet with other things which tends to include more meat or other sources of protein and (ironically, since they are mostly carbs and you should have been eating them already) vegetables, which makes a diet more filling, but not necessarily due to keto.
I do think a subset of these people really do find keto valuable in controlling appetite, though -- probably the ketones.9 -
CattOfTheGarage wrote: »What do you all think of Dr. Peter Attia's experience? He claims to have gone from 195 to 170 while increasing his calories from about 3200 cals/day (carb heavy) to 4300 cals/day (keto) while keeping exercise constant or even decreasing exercise some (he worked out 3-4 hrs/day and is an endurance athlete)? I have no reason to doubt him.
See:
http://eatingacademy.com/how-i-lost-weight
Also see below on effects of his keto diet on his athletic performance:
http://eatingacademy.com/how-a-low-carb-diet-affected-my-athletic-performance
No one can say this man doesn't know his science on this subject (he doesn't know all obviously but is well educated on the topic).
I don't do keto but it does seem to me there is something to it.
Science does. Physics doesn't work that way.
Explain your comment, "physics doesn't work that way" please. The CICO model doesn't take into account excretion. If it did, then you can see that no conservation of energy principles are violated. Do you think he was lying or made gross errors in his logging?
Just to clarify, are you saying that high fat low carb diets cause you to poop out some of the calories rather than absorbing them?
I suppose that's possible, but if it's more than a small proportion I'd expect unpleasant, Alli-like side effects.
Since macro composition determines insulin levels and insulin allows storage, I would say yes there is some effect as you described but not to the level that it would be unpleasant as you mentioned.
As far as getting rid of fat already stored, maybe macro composition can help release the fat without the body needing extra energy due to activity (you just burn hotter). High insulin inhibits fat loss so maybe low insulin allows stored fat to be metabolized or even promotes it.
An article below states that when fat is metabolized, you get energy out (burn hotter) and you exhale carbon dioxide and you excrete water. I don't think you poop out much.
None of these ideas contradict CICO. They just say we are not 100% efficient at using the CI and also that you can possibly burn more than the CO that is required do to activity thereby creating more of a deficit than the simple CICO model predicts.
http://www.bbc.com/news/health-304940090 -
Are there any comparisons with body temperature on low-carb vs low-fat? That would be interesting. The most basic definition of calorie/Calorie having to do with heating water. Someone with a higher body temperature *must* be using more calories to maintain that, right?1
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leanjogreen18 wrote: »^^interesting, thanks.
He wears some sort of watch that monitors his glucose I think I read.
I believe it is a continous glucose monitor. Instead of sticking your finger and testing blood glucose repeatedly throughout the day, the continuous glucometre is a small device with a tiny needle inserted into you, usually on the trunk somewhere, that monitors BG all day. It sends a signal to remote devices, including alarms if there is a low. They are a real blessing for thos with T1D and a helpful tool for those with IR.1
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