CICO vs. "clean eating"
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My "long term solution", is predominantly eating foods traditionally accepted as "clean". (before everyone decided to individualize the definition of the term)
Fruits, vegetables, meats, fish, eggs, nuts & seeds make up the majority of the foods I eat. I eat dairy(greek yogurt & cheese) & limited grains, (not for health reasons, I was never big on bread or pasta). Very little highly processed foods, next to no junk food or fast food. When I do indulge a treat, I do so guilt & stress free.1 -
misschellechelle wrote: »Hi all,
Quick question which I know has been debated before -
Is it more important to focus on CICO or "clean eating" such as cutting out all processed food, grains, sugar etc.
I want something sustainable which is why I see CICO as a long term solution, but it seems a lot of the advice I read states the multiple health benefits, including weight loss, from a clean eating, paleo, sugar free diet....
If you could share your thoughts and experiences that would be great
I am looking to loss around 10 pounds.
CICO is just the energy equation...any diet you do follows the CICO formula. You can eat "clean" and you will still gain weight if your energy (calories) coming in exceed your energy (calorie) expenditure.
That said, I eat a predominately whole foods diet (clean is a pretty subjective term that has about a gazillion definitions depending on who you ask) and I find it much easier to not overeat eating relatively clean...but then again, I put on a good 8-10 Lbs every winter eating this way when my overall activity dips....so yeah, it's very possible to eat "clean" and put on weight...it all still comes down to energy balance or lack thereof.
Also, in regards to Paleo...sure, they focus on whole foods which is great...they also demonize other perfectly nutritious whole foods, which makes no sense...according to paleo, legumes and lentils would be unclean even though they are awesome sources of whole food nutrition...it's just kind of stupid.1 -
No grains? that's "clean eating/paleo" isn't it. Well I like grains, I don't care too much for processed foods but sometimes I'll have a pre-made vegan burguer , all within my mcaros/calories limit. works better for me. I do choose whole grain and similar cos I find it more fulfilling and I prefer it that way but others may not and that's fine too!
But I'd never quit lentils and legumes, I did try "vegan paleo" for about 1.5 weeks, I hated it with all my heart xD0 -
Depending on your CICO calorie allowance and what you normally eat, you may need to eat a bit "cleaner" in order to get enough protein, fiber, etc and to avoid your meals being about 2 bites large. But other than that, eat whatever within your calories to lose weight. (Starchy stuff is yummy, but those calories add up really fast and you still need to get protein elsewhere).0
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Also, oats are whole grains...I consider them to be quite healthy and "clean"0
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Calorie counting seems to lead to "healthier" eating in that a lot of the stuff I used to eat is just too many calories for my daily limit. So I've dropped pop and a few other foods, not because they are bad but they have too many calories and I'd rather have something else instead. Beyond that, I don't focus on clean, or healthy or anything of that nature.2
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I have always considered "clean eating" to mean minimally processed. There are plenty of grains out there that fall into that category.
I think eating less processed items (like whole foods without added ingredients, added sugar etc.) is really important. You could make extremely poor food choices, be unhealthy, and still meet weight goals / fall within a specific calorie range. You can also be very thin on the outside and be unhealthy on the inside.
I also think that keeping track of calories for just a little bit can give you some perspective into how certain items (like soda, desserts, alcohol) can really be deterring your health goals. I also think you can get some great bang for your buck with eating healthier items. I am not a fan of CICO as a permanent thing, but I think it's a great teaching tool starting out.0 -
cuadrado12 wrote: »I have always considered "clean eating" to mean minimally processed. There are plenty of grains out there that fall into that category.
I think eating less processed items (like whole foods without added ingredients, added sugar etc.) is really important. You could make extremely poor food choices, be unhealthy, and still meet weight goals / fall within a specific calorie range. You can also be very thin on the outside and be unhealthy on the inside.
I also think that keeping track of calories for just a little bit can give you some perspective into how certain items (like soda, desserts, alcohol) can really be deterring your health goals. I also think you can get some great bang for your buck with eating healthier items. I am not a fan of CICO as a permanent thing, but I think it's a great teaching tool starting out.
If the underlying premise is that a non-whole food or a food with added ingredients or a food with added sugar is automatically a poor choice or will lead to poor health, then I reject that. I don't think there is any evidence to support the claim that these foods, in and of themselves, will lead to poor health.
If I'm meeting my nutritional needs and including some white rice or protein powder or jam sweetened with fruit juice or a teaspoon of sugar in my coffee in my diet, how is that going to hurt me? If I dress a salad with some olive oil, a non-whole food, how is that going to cause harm?
The choice isn't "eat poorly" or "only eat clean foods." There is a whole range of eating between those two choice and those of us who include non-whole foods in our diets aren't necessarily compromising our health.6 -
cuadrado12 wrote: »I have always considered "clean eating" to mean minimally processed. There are plenty of grains out there that fall into that category.
I think eating less processed items (like whole foods without added ingredients, added sugar etc.) is really important. You could make extremely poor food choices, be unhealthy, and still meet weight goals / fall within a specific calorie range. You can also be very thin on the outside and be unhealthy on the inside.
I also think that keeping track of calories for just a little bit can give you some perspective into how certain items (like soda, desserts, alcohol) can really be deterring your health goals. I also think you can get some great bang for your buck with eating healthier items. I am not a fan of CICO as a permanent thing, but I think it's a great teaching tool starting out.
Again, CICO is not a diet or a way of eating. It is a fundamental energy balance that governs everyone. Whether you are eating clean or not, you are following CICO.
Alternatively to the points you make above - you can eat a clean diet comprised of mostly whole foods, and if you are eating in a calorie surplus you can become overweight or obese, which is also not healthy on the inside (or probably the outside).
Lastly - I'm always curious that everyone seems to assume that all processed foods are unhealthy. I eat quite a few processed foods including things like greek yogurt, frozen meals, etc. I also eat whole foods as well. How specifically is the convenient breakfast that I had this morning - frozen egg muffins with bacon, spinach, and cheese - harming my health - compared to the very similar breakfast casserole of eggs, ham, spinach and cheese that I sometimes meal prep on weekends and eat all week long?
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janejellyroll wrote: »cuadrado12 wrote: »I have always considered "clean eating" to mean minimally processed. There are plenty of grains out there that fall into that category.
I think eating less processed items (like whole foods without added ingredients, added sugar etc.) is really important. You could make extremely poor food choices, be unhealthy, and still meet weight goals / fall within a specific calorie range. You can also be very thin on the outside and be unhealthy on the inside.
I also think that keeping track of calories for just a little bit can give you some perspective into how certain items (like soda, desserts, alcohol) can really be deterring your health goals. I also think you can get some great bang for your buck with eating healthier items. I am not a fan of CICO as a permanent thing, but I think it's a great teaching tool starting out.
If the underlying premise is that a non-whole food or a food with added ingredients or a food with added sugar is automatically a poor choice or will lead to poor health, then I reject that. I don't think there is any evidence to support the claim that these foods, in and of themselves, will lead to poor health.
If I'm meeting my nutritional needs and including some white rice or protein powder or jam sweetened with fruit juice or a teaspoon of sugar in my coffee in my diet, how is that going to hurt me? If I dress a salad with some olive oil, a non-whole food, how is that going to cause harm?
The choice isn't "eat poorly" or "only eat clean foods." There is a whole range of eating between those two choice and those of us who include non-whole foods in our diets aren't necessarily compromising our health.
This. I'm in excellent health by every marker my doctor uses and I eat all sorts of foods.1 -
WinoGelato wrote: »cuadrado12 wrote: »I have always considered "clean eating" to mean minimally processed. There are plenty of grains out there that fall into that category.
I think eating less processed items (like whole foods without added ingredients, added sugar etc.) is really important. You could make extremely poor food choices, be unhealthy, and still meet weight goals / fall within a specific calorie range. You can also be very thin on the outside and be unhealthy on the inside.
I also think that keeping track of calories for just a little bit can give you some perspective into how certain items (like soda, desserts, alcohol) can really be deterring your health goals. I also think you can get some great bang for your buck with eating healthier items. I am not a fan of CICO as a permanent thing, but I think it's a great teaching tool starting out.
Again, CICO is not a diet or a way of eating. It is a fundamental energy balance that governs everyone. Whether you are eating clean or not, you are following CICO.
Alternatively to the points you make above - you can eat a clean diet comprised of mostly whole foods, and if you are eating in a calorie surplus you can become overweight or obese, which is also not healthy on the inside (or probably the outside).
Lastly - I'm always curious that everyone seems to assume that all processed foods are unhealthy. I eat quite a few processed foods including things like greek yogurt, frozen meals, etc. I also eat whole foods as well. How specifically is the convenient breakfast that I had this morning - frozen egg muffins with bacon, spinach, and cheese - harming my health - compared to the very similar breakfast casserole of eggs, ham, spinach and cheese that I sometimes meal prep on weekends and eat all week long?
I can assure you that my nightly ice cream is highly beneficial. God i love my high carb days.
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Everything boils down to CICO. Including paleo and vegan diets3
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Here's the list that @diannethegeek compiled of many definitions offered by various posters for "clean eating". Which definition are we using here? Under some of these definitions Fritos are clean, while avocados are not clean.Nothing but minimally processed foods.
Absolutely no processed foods.
Shop only the outside of the grocery store.
Nothing out of a box, jar, or can.
Only food that's not in a box or hermetically sealed bag, or from e.g. McDonald's.
No take-out or junk food at all.
Nothing at all with a barcode.
Nothing with more than 5 ingredients.
Nothing with more than 4 ingredients.
Nothing with more than 3 ingredients.
Nothing with more than 1 ingredient.
No added preservatives.
No added chemicals.
No chemicals, preservatives, etc. at all.
No ingredients that you can't pronounce.
No ingredients that sound like they came out of a chemistry book.
Nothing that is processed and comes in a package or wrapper, or has any ingredient that sounds scientific.
Don't eat products that have a TV commercial.
Don't eat foods that have a mascot.
If it grows or had a mother, it is ok to eat it.
Don't eat products that have a longer shelf life than you do.
Eat "food" and not "food-like substances."
No added sugar.
No added refined sugar.
Swap white sugar for brown.
No "white" foods.
Nothing but lean meats, fruits, and vegetables.
Nothing but lean meats, fruits, vegetables, and beans.
A plant-based whole food diet.
Eat foods as close to their natural state as POSSIBLE, and little to no processed food.
Only meat from grass-fed animals and free-range chickens.
Only pesticide-free foods.
Nothing that causes your body bloat or inflammation.
No trigger foods, nothing from fast food chains, nothing in the junk food aisles, and no high gmo foods.
No red meat, no sweets, no pasta, no alcohol, no bread, no soda, nothing but fresh fruits and vegetables, complex carbohydrates and lean proteins.
Eat a plant based diet consisting of whole plant foods.
No bad carbs and processed foods.
Anything that makes a better choice.
Not cheating on whatever diet you are on.
Any food that doesn't make it difficult to hit your macro/micro targets.
Clean eating means eating optimally.5 -
I gained weight when I was "clean eating" (obviously I was eating in a surplus, but I was told by a million blogs that all I needed to do was eat clean and I could eat as much as I wanted)
I eat pizza and French fries now and I'm thinner than I was while clean eating.4 -
Everyone has to do what works for them. I personally don't adhere much to CICO. I think the body is more complicated than given credit in some aspects, and therefore it's almost impossible to accurately calculate CICO. In other ways, the body is very simple. I eat clean and I eat when I'm hungry. It works out well for me. For others, maybe not so much.
This doesnt make sense - if one is losing weight one is eating in a calorie deficit.ie calories out are more than calories in.
If one is maitaining weight calories out = calories in. Gaining, calories in are more than calories out.
Whether one 'adheres much to CICO' or not.
Just like one stays attached to the earth whether one adheres much to gravity or not.
I think everyone would agree it is not possible to exactly accurately calculate CICO - but that is ok. Calculate as accurately as you need to , to lose (maintain/gain as desired) - or dont calculate at all, just eat less (or same or more for desired result)
But CICO works for everyone, whether you are doing the calculations or not.
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rileysowner wrote: »Even eating "clean" whatever that means since different people define it differently, often in radical ways, a person can eat more calories than their body burns and put on weight. I have a friend here who was Vegan and put on her weight as a Vegan. That is about as "clean" whatever that means, as it can get, yet eat too many calories and your body will store them as fat.
I disagree wholeheartedly that Vegan is "about as 'clean'.....as it can get". There are plenty of foods that are junk and are terrible for you that are free of animal products. I also don't think that eating clean is very hard to define. You shop around the perimeter of the grocery store. Don't eat foods that come in a bag or bag or that contain ingredients that you can't pronounce. Choose sustainable fish. Choose chickens that are pastured and fed a natural NON-vegetarian diet, no antibiotics, no GMO in the feed, same goes with eggs. Look for grassfed cows. Basically, avoid buying meats from CAFO's.
Personally, I find that "eating clean" is more sustainable. Who wants to spend the rest of their lives counting calories? I sure don't. I do it now because I have to. Eating has not yet become intuitive for me, but I know if time, that it will.
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WinoGelato wrote: »cuadrado12 wrote: »I have always considered "clean eating" to mean minimally processed. There are plenty of grains out there that fall into that category.
I think eating less processed items (like whole foods without added ingredients, added sugar etc.) is really important. You could make extremely poor food choices, be unhealthy, and still meet weight goals / fall within a specific calorie range. You can also be very thin on the outside and be unhealthy on the inside.
I also think that keeping track of calories for just a little bit can give you some perspective into how certain items (like soda, desserts, alcohol) can really be deterring your health goals. I also think you can get some great bang for your buck with eating healthier items. I am not a fan of CICO as a permanent thing, but I think it's a great teaching tool starting out.
Again, CICO is not a diet or a way of eating. It is a fundamental energy balance that governs everyone. Whether you are eating clean or not, you are following CICO.
Alternatively to the points you make above - you can eat a clean diet comprised of mostly whole foods, and if you are eating in a calorie surplus you can become overweight or obese, which is also not healthy on the inside (or probably the outside).
Lastly - I'm always curious that everyone seems to assume that all processed foods are unhealthy. I eat quite a few processed foods including things like greek yogurt, frozen meals, etc. I also eat whole foods as well. How specifically is the convenient breakfast that I had this morning - frozen egg muffins with bacon, spinach, and cheese - harming my health - compared to the very similar breakfast casserole of eggs, ham, spinach and cheese that I sometimes meal prep on weekends and eat all week long?
There are exceptions to every rule. If your frozen egg muffins contain ingredients that you can pronounce and aren't loaded with man-made foods and the like, you are fine. I personally wouldn't eat Greek yogurt from a company like Dannon or the like, when it's just as easy to make yourself, but I also don't think that it is going to harm your health if you do. I know that for me, personally, when I'm thinking of prepared/boxed/bagged foods, I'm more thinking of canned pasta, cereal, Doritos, American Cheese (gag) and things like that. You sound like you are doing just fine with your food choices.0 -
michelle172415 wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »cuadrado12 wrote: »I have always considered "clean eating" to mean minimally processed. There are plenty of grains out there that fall into that category.
I think eating less processed items (like whole foods without added ingredients, added sugar etc.) is really important. You could make extremely poor food choices, be unhealthy, and still meet weight goals / fall within a specific calorie range. You can also be very thin on the outside and be unhealthy on the inside.
I also think that keeping track of calories for just a little bit can give you some perspective into how certain items (like soda, desserts, alcohol) can really be deterring your health goals. I also think you can get some great bang for your buck with eating healthier items. I am not a fan of CICO as a permanent thing, but I think it's a great teaching tool starting out.
Again, CICO is not a diet or a way of eating. It is a fundamental energy balance that governs everyone. Whether you are eating clean or not, you are following CICO.
Alternatively to the points you make above - you can eat a clean diet comprised of mostly whole foods, and if you are eating in a calorie surplus you can become overweight or obese, which is also not healthy on the inside (or probably the outside).
Lastly - I'm always curious that everyone seems to assume that all processed foods are unhealthy. I eat quite a few processed foods including things like greek yogurt, frozen meals, etc. I also eat whole foods as well. How specifically is the convenient breakfast that I had this morning - frozen egg muffins with bacon, spinach, and cheese - harming my health - compared to the very similar breakfast casserole of eggs, ham, spinach and cheese that I sometimes meal prep on weekends and eat all week long?
There are exceptions to every rule. If your frozen egg muffins contain ingredients that you can pronounce and aren't loaded with man-made foods and the like, you are fine. I personally wouldn't eat Greek yogurt from a company like Dannon or the like, when it's just as easy to make yourself, but I also don't think that it is going to harm your health if you do. I know that for me, personally, when I'm thinking of prepared/boxed/bagged foods, I'm more thinking of canned pasta, cereal, Doritos, American Cheese (gag) and things like that. You sound like you are doing just fine with your food choices.
Fortunately for me, I have a chemistry degree, so not only can I pronounce all of the ingredients, I know that there is nothing scary or harmful about them.
I appreciate that making yogurt may not be difficult, and I have a new instant pot so I may in fact give it a try sometimes, but it's hardly "just as easy to make it myself" than to grab 10 or so Chobanis off the shelf in a variety of flavors to grab on busy mornings.
Also, I eat Doritos and cereal and even the occasional American cheese slice when I'm making grilled cheese and soup for dinner with my kids. None of these things, when eaten in moderation, is harmful to ones health or counterproductive to ones weight loss goals. That also doesn't mean that I don't eat Whole Foods as well, but I'm a busy working mom and convenience foods are just that, convenient. There are plenty of them that have a decent nutritional profile and to make sweeping generalizations like processed foods aren't healthy just isn't accurate. Individual foods aren't healthy or unhealthy. It's the total diet that matters.
I am doing just fine with my food choices, thanks!
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WinoGelato wrote: »michelle172415 wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »cuadrado12 wrote: »I have always considered "clean eating" to mean minimally processed. There are plenty of grains out there that fall into that category.
I think eating less processed items (like whole foods without added ingredients, added sugar etc.) is really important. You could make extremely poor food choices, be unhealthy, and still meet weight goals / fall within a specific calorie range. You can also be very thin on the outside and be unhealthy on the inside.
I also think that keeping track of calories for just a little bit can give you some perspective into how certain items (like soda, desserts, alcohol) can really be deterring your health goals. I also think you can get some great bang for your buck with eating healthier items. I am not a fan of CICO as a permanent thing, but I think it's a great teaching tool starting out.
Again, CICO is not a diet or a way of eating. It is a fundamental energy balance that governs everyone. Whether you are eating clean or not, you are following CICO.
Alternatively to the points you make above - you can eat a clean diet comprised of mostly whole foods, and if you are eating in a calorie surplus you can become overweight or obese, which is also not healthy on the inside (or probably the outside).
Lastly - I'm always curious that everyone seems to assume that all processed foods are unhealthy. I eat quite a few processed foods including things like greek yogurt, frozen meals, etc. I also eat whole foods as well. How specifically is the convenient breakfast that I had this morning - frozen egg muffins with bacon, spinach, and cheese - harming my health - compared to the very similar breakfast casserole of eggs, ham, spinach and cheese that I sometimes meal prep on weekends and eat all week long?
There are exceptions to every rule. If your frozen egg muffins contain ingredients that you can pronounce and aren't loaded with man-made foods and the like, you are fine. I personally wouldn't eat Greek yogurt from a company like Dannon or the like, when it's just as easy to make yourself, but I also don't think that it is going to harm your health if you do. I know that for me, personally, when I'm thinking of prepared/boxed/bagged foods, I'm more thinking of canned pasta, cereal, Doritos, American Cheese (gag) and things like that. You sound like you are doing just fine with your food choices.
Fortunately for me, I have a chemistry degree, so not only can I pronounce all of the ingredients, I know that there is nothing scary or harmful about them.
I appreciate that making yogurt may not be difficult, and I have a new instant pot so I may in fact give it a try sometimes, but it's hardly "just as easy to make it myself" than to grab 10 or so Chobanis off the shelf in a variety of flavors to grab on busy mornings.
Also, I eat Doritos and cereal and even the occasional American cheese slice when I'm making grilled cheese and soup for dinner with my kids. None of these things, when eaten in moderation, is harmful to ones health or counterproductive to ones weight loss goals. That also doesn't mean that I don't eat Whole Foods as well, but I'm a busy working mom and convenience foods are just that, convenient. There are plenty of them that have a decent nutritional profile and to make sweeping generalizations like processed foods aren't healthy just isn't accurate. Individual foods aren't healthy or unhealthy. It's the total diet that matters.
I am doing just fine with my food choices, thanks!
I love people who understand and grasp the concepts of context and dosage.
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michelle172415 wrote: »rileysowner wrote: »Even eating "clean" whatever that means since different people define it differently, often in radical ways, a person can eat more calories than their body burns and put on weight. I have a friend here who was Vegan and put on her weight as a Vegan. That is about as "clean" whatever that means, as it can get, yet eat too many calories and your body will store them as fat.
I disagree wholeheartedly that Vegan is "about as 'clean'.....as it can get". There are plenty of foods that are junk and are terrible for you that are free of animal products. I also don't think that eating clean is very hard to define. You shop around the perimeter of the grocery store. Don't eat foods that come in a bag or bag or that contain ingredients that you can't pronounce. Choose sustainable fish. Choose chickens that are pastured and fed a natural NON-vegetarian diet, no antibiotics, no GMO in the feed, same goes with eggs. Look for grassfed cows. Basically, avoid buying meats from CAFO's.
Personally, I find that "eating clean" is more sustainable. Who wants to spend the rest of their lives counting calories? I sure don't. I do it now because I have to. Eating has not yet become intuitive for me, but I know if time, that it will.
Except there's a thread going on in a different section right now where it's being claimed that all meat is 'unclean'. So, which one of you is correct?
And what about those who have larger vocabularies? If I can pronounce the ingredients in something but you can't, does that mean I'm ok to eat it but you're not?
And the parameter of my local grocery store (Aldi) has snacks/chips section, the beer section, cereal/poptarts section and then the frozen food section, which includes ice cream and chicken nuggets. So does this mean I can eat these things and still have a 'clean' diet? Since the fresh produce section is in the middle of the store does that mean those items aren't allowed?
Labeling food is a totally pointless and arbitrary exercise and has nothing to do with weight control or health.
And you can most certainly eat 'clean' (whatever that actually means), and still gain weight/be overweight. Weight loss, weight gain and weight maintenance comes down to calorie intake. If you're eating over your maintenance level calorie intake you'll gain weight-regardless of what foods you're eating. Same with losing weight-if you're at the correct calorie deficit for your weight goals, then you'll lose weight regardless of what foods you're eating.8
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