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CICO vs. "clean eating"
Replies
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WinoGelato wrote: »
Again, CICO is not a diet or a way of eating. It is a fundamental energy balance that governs everyone. Whether you are eating clean or not, you are following CICO.
Alternatively to the points you make above - you can eat a clean diet comprised of mostly whole foods, and if you are eating in a calorie surplus you can become overweight or obese, which is also not healthy on the inside (or probably the outside).
Lastly - I'm always curious that everyone seems to assume that all processed foods are unhealthy. I eat quite a few processed foods including things like greek yogurt, frozen meals, etc. I also eat whole foods as well. How specifically is the convenient breakfast that I had this morning - frozen egg muffins with bacon, spinach, and cheese - harming my health - compared to the very similar breakfast casserole of eggs, ham, spinach and cheese that I sometimes meal prep on weekends and eat all week long?
I can assure you that my nightly ice cream is highly beneficial. God i love my high carb days.
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Everything boils down to CICO. Including paleo and vegan diets3
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Here's the list that @diannethegeek compiled of many definitions offered by various posters for "clean eating". Which definition are we using here? Under some of these definitions Fritos are clean, while avocados are not clean.Nothing but minimally processed foods.
Absolutely no processed foods.
Shop only the outside of the grocery store.
Nothing out of a box, jar, or can.
Only food that's not in a box or hermetically sealed bag, or from e.g. McDonald's.
No take-out or junk food at all.
Nothing at all with a barcode.
Nothing with more than 5 ingredients.
Nothing with more than 4 ingredients.
Nothing with more than 3 ingredients.
Nothing with more than 1 ingredient.
No added preservatives.
No added chemicals.
No chemicals, preservatives, etc. at all.
No ingredients that you can't pronounce.
No ingredients that sound like they came out of a chemistry book.
Nothing that is processed and comes in a package or wrapper, or has any ingredient that sounds scientific.
Don't eat products that have a TV commercial.
Don't eat foods that have a mascot.
If it grows or had a mother, it is ok to eat it.
Don't eat products that have a longer shelf life than you do.
Eat "food" and not "food-like substances."
No added sugar.
No added refined sugar.
Swap white sugar for brown.
No "white" foods.
Nothing but lean meats, fruits, and vegetables.
Nothing but lean meats, fruits, vegetables, and beans.
A plant-based whole food diet.
Eat foods as close to their natural state as POSSIBLE, and little to no processed food.
Only meat from grass-fed animals and free-range chickens.
Only pesticide-free foods.
Nothing that causes your body bloat or inflammation.
No trigger foods, nothing from fast food chains, nothing in the junk food aisles, and no high gmo foods.
No red meat, no sweets, no pasta, no alcohol, no bread, no soda, nothing but fresh fruits and vegetables, complex carbohydrates and lean proteins.
Eat a plant based diet consisting of whole plant foods.
No bad carbs and processed foods.
Anything that makes a better choice.
Not cheating on whatever diet you are on.
Any food that doesn't make it difficult to hit your macro/micro targets.
Clean eating means eating optimally.5 -
I gained weight when I was "clean eating" (obviously I was eating in a surplus, but I was told by a million blogs that all I needed to do was eat clean and I could eat as much as I wanted)
I eat pizza and French fries now and I'm thinner than I was while clean eating.4 -
Everyone has to do what works for them. I personally don't adhere much to CICO. I think the body is more complicated than given credit in some aspects, and therefore it's almost impossible to accurately calculate CICO. In other ways, the body is very simple. I eat clean and I eat when I'm hungry. It works out well for me. For others, maybe not so much.
This doesnt make sense - if one is losing weight one is eating in a calorie deficit.ie calories out are more than calories in.
If one is maitaining weight calories out = calories in. Gaining, calories in are more than calories out.
Whether one 'adheres much to CICO' or not.
Just like one stays attached to the earth whether one adheres much to gravity or not.
I think everyone would agree it is not possible to exactly accurately calculate CICO - but that is ok. Calculate as accurately as you need to , to lose (maintain/gain as desired) - or dont calculate at all, just eat less (or same or more for desired result)
But CICO works for everyone, whether you are doing the calculations or not.
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rileysowner wrote: »Even eating "clean" whatever that means since different people define it differently, often in radical ways, a person can eat more calories than their body burns and put on weight. I have a friend here who was Vegan and put on her weight as a Vegan. That is about as "clean" whatever that means, as it can get, yet eat too many calories and your body will store them as fat.
I disagree wholeheartedly that Vegan is "about as 'clean'.....as it can get". There are plenty of foods that are junk and are terrible for you that are free of animal products. I also don't think that eating clean is very hard to define. You shop around the perimeter of the grocery store. Don't eat foods that come in a bag or bag or that contain ingredients that you can't pronounce. Choose sustainable fish. Choose chickens that are pastured and fed a natural NON-vegetarian diet, no antibiotics, no GMO in the feed, same goes with eggs. Look for grassfed cows. Basically, avoid buying meats from CAFO's.
Personally, I find that "eating clean" is more sustainable. Who wants to spend the rest of their lives counting calories? I sure don't. I do it now because I have to. Eating has not yet become intuitive for me, but I know if time, that it will.
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WinoGelato wrote: »
Again, CICO is not a diet or a way of eating. It is a fundamental energy balance that governs everyone. Whether you are eating clean or not, you are following CICO.
Alternatively to the points you make above - you can eat a clean diet comprised of mostly whole foods, and if you are eating in a calorie surplus you can become overweight or obese, which is also not healthy on the inside (or probably the outside).
Lastly - I'm always curious that everyone seems to assume that all processed foods are unhealthy. I eat quite a few processed foods including things like greek yogurt, frozen meals, etc. I also eat whole foods as well. How specifically is the convenient breakfast that I had this morning - frozen egg muffins with bacon, spinach, and cheese - harming my health - compared to the very similar breakfast casserole of eggs, ham, spinach and cheese that I sometimes meal prep on weekends and eat all week long?
There are exceptions to every rule. If your frozen egg muffins contain ingredients that you can pronounce and aren't loaded with man-made foods and the like, you are fine. I personally wouldn't eat Greek yogurt from a company like Dannon or the like, when it's just as easy to make yourself, but I also don't think that it is going to harm your health if you do. I know that for me, personally, when I'm thinking of prepared/boxed/bagged foods, I'm more thinking of canned pasta, cereal, Doritos, American Cheese (gag) and things like that. You sound like you are doing just fine with your food choices.0 -
michelle172415 wrote: »
There are exceptions to every rule. If your frozen egg muffins contain ingredients that you can pronounce and aren't loaded with man-made foods and the like, you are fine. I personally wouldn't eat Greek yogurt from a company like Dannon or the like, when it's just as easy to make yourself, but I also don't think that it is going to harm your health if you do. I know that for me, personally, when I'm thinking of prepared/boxed/bagged foods, I'm more thinking of canned pasta, cereal, Doritos, American Cheese (gag) and things like that. You sound like you are doing just fine with your food choices.
Fortunately for me, I have a chemistry degree, so not only can I pronounce all of the ingredients, I know that there is nothing scary or harmful about them.
I appreciate that making yogurt may not be difficult, and I have a new instant pot so I may in fact give it a try sometimes, but it's hardly "just as easy to make it myself" than to grab 10 or so Chobanis off the shelf in a variety of flavors to grab on busy mornings.
Also, I eat Doritos and cereal and even the occasional American cheese slice when I'm making grilled cheese and soup for dinner with my kids. None of these things, when eaten in moderation, is harmful to ones health or counterproductive to ones weight loss goals. That also doesn't mean that I don't eat Whole Foods as well, but I'm a busy working mom and convenience foods are just that, convenient. There are plenty of them that have a decent nutritional profile and to make sweeping generalizations like processed foods aren't healthy just isn't accurate. Individual foods aren't healthy or unhealthy. It's the total diet that matters.
I am doing just fine with my food choices, thanks!
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WinoGelato wrote: »
Fortunately for me, I have a chemistry degree, so not only can I pronounce all of the ingredients, I know that there is nothing scary or harmful about them.
I appreciate that making yogurt may not be difficult, and I have a new instant pot so I may in fact give it a try sometimes, but it's hardly "just as easy to make it myself" than to grab 10 or so Chobanis off the shelf in a variety of flavors to grab on busy mornings.
Also, I eat Doritos and cereal and even the occasional American cheese slice when I'm making grilled cheese and soup for dinner with my kids. None of these things, when eaten in moderation, is harmful to ones health or counterproductive to ones weight loss goals. That also doesn't mean that I don't eat Whole Foods as well, but I'm a busy working mom and convenience foods are just that, convenient. There are plenty of them that have a decent nutritional profile and to make sweeping generalizations like processed foods aren't healthy just isn't accurate. Individual foods aren't healthy or unhealthy. It's the total diet that matters.
I am doing just fine with my food choices, thanks!
I love people who understand and grasp the concepts of context and dosage.
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michelle172415 wrote: »
I disagree wholeheartedly that Vegan is "about as 'clean'.....as it can get". There are plenty of foods that are junk and are terrible for you that are free of animal products. I also don't think that eating clean is very hard to define. You shop around the perimeter of the grocery store. Don't eat foods that come in a bag or bag or that contain ingredients that you can't pronounce. Choose sustainable fish. Choose chickens that are pastured and fed a natural NON-vegetarian diet, no antibiotics, no GMO in the feed, same goes with eggs. Look for grassfed cows. Basically, avoid buying meats from CAFO's.
Personally, I find that "eating clean" is more sustainable. Who wants to spend the rest of their lives counting calories? I sure don't. I do it now because I have to. Eating has not yet become intuitive for me, but I know if time, that it will.
Except there's a thread going on in a different section right now where it's being claimed that all meat is 'unclean'. So, which one of you is correct?
And what about those who have larger vocabularies? If I can pronounce the ingredients in something but you can't, does that mean I'm ok to eat it but you're not?
And the parameter of my local grocery store (Aldi) has snacks/chips section, the beer section, cereal/poptarts section and then the frozen food section, which includes ice cream and chicken nuggets. So does this mean I can eat these things and still have a 'clean' diet? Since the fresh produce section is in the middle of the store does that mean those items aren't allowed?
Labeling food is a totally pointless and arbitrary exercise and has nothing to do with weight control or health.
And you can most certainly eat 'clean' (whatever that actually means), and still gain weight/be overweight. Weight loss, weight gain and weight maintenance comes down to calorie intake. If you're eating over your maintenance level calorie intake you'll gain weight-regardless of what foods you're eating. Same with losing weight-if you're at the correct calorie deficit for your weight goals, then you'll lose weight regardless of what foods you're eating.8 -
michelle172415 wrote: »
I disagree wholeheartedly that Vegan is "about as 'clean'.....as it can get". There are plenty of foods that are junk and are terrible for you that are free of animal products. I also don't think that eating clean is very hard to define. You shop around the perimeter of the grocery store. Don't eat foods that come in a bag or bag or that contain ingredients that you can't pronounce. Choose sustainable fish. Choose chickens that are pastured and fed a natural NON-vegetarian diet, no antibiotics, no GMO in the feed, same goes with eggs. Look for grassfed cows. Basically, avoid buying meats from CAFO's.
Personally, I find that "eating clean" is more sustainable. Who wants to spend the rest of their lives counting calories? I sure don't. I do it now because I have to. Eating has not yet become intuitive for me, but I know if time, that it will.
Agreed. I'm vegan and while I eat plenty of foods that would be considered "clean," I also eat many that would be considered "unclean." Just for breakfast this morning I had foods that came in a bag (frozen edamame, romaine lettuce, baked corn chips) and foods I purchased in the middle aisles of the grocery store (hot sauce, canned black beans, canned tomatoes).
I mean, my taco salad didn't seem terrible for me, but it certainly wasn't "clean."5 -
michelle172415 wrote: »
I disagree wholeheartedly that Vegan is "about as 'clean'.....as it can get". There are plenty of foods that are junk and are terrible for you that are free of animal products. I also don't think that eating clean is very hard to define. You shop around the perimeter of the grocery store. Don't eat foods that come in a bag or bag or that contain ingredients that you can't pronounce. Choose sustainable fish. Choose chickens that are pastured and fed a natural NON-vegetarian diet, no antibiotics, no GMO in the feed, same goes with eggs. Look for grassfed cows. Basically, avoid buying meats from CAFO's.
Personally, I find that "eating clean" is more sustainable. Who wants to spend the rest of their lives counting calories? I sure don't. I do it now because I have to. Eating has not yet become intuitive for me, but I know if time, that it will.
I'm going grocery shopping tomorrow. You're welcome to come along and find me food to eat only from the perimeter of the store. Remember: no bags, no boxes, no phonetics. I'll let you pass if you are bilingual (French/English).1 -
THIS.They aren't comparable.
Two different things.
One is a written simplification of how human beings lose and gain weight, the other is an arbitrary way of eating.
CICO is at play 24 hours a day 365 days a year now matter how what where and when you eat.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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michelle172415 wrote: »
There are exceptions to every rule. If your frozen egg muffins contain ingredients that you can pronounce and aren't loaded with man-made foods and the like, you are fine. I personally wouldn't eat Greek yogurt from a company like Dannon or the like, when it's just as easy to make yourself, but I also don't think that it is going to harm your health if you do. I know that for me, personally, when I'm thinking of prepared/boxed/bagged foods, I'm more thinking of canned pasta, cereal, Doritos, American Cheese (gag) and things like that. You sound like you are doing just fine with your food choices.
There's an apple. A little red apple. From a tree. Unprocessed goodness.
Can you pronounce what it's made up of?
If not. What happens when you eat it?
Are there any foods which you are able to pronounce all of it's constituent parts? I imagine living by this rule is rather difficult.
If I can pronounce every ingredient in a bag of Doritos and you can't does it have a different effect on you than me?
Do I get superpowers because I can pronounce complex words?
I've just eaten some man made food, made by two men called Ben and Jerry. Am I going to come to grievous harm?
Ridiculous.8 -
michelle172415 wrote: »
I disagree wholeheartedly that Vegan is "about as 'clean'.....as it can get". There are plenty of foods that are junk and are terrible for you that are free of animal products. I also don't think that eating clean is very hard to define. You shop around the perimeter of the grocery store. Don't eat foods that come in a bag or bag or that contain ingredients that you can't pronounce. Choose sustainable fish. Choose chickens that are pastured and fed a natural NON-vegetarian diet, no antibiotics, no GMO in the feed, same goes with eggs. Look for grassfed cows. Basically, avoid buying meats from CAFO's.
Personally, I find that "eating clean" is more sustainable. Who wants to spend the rest of their lives counting calories? I sure don't. I do it now because I have to. Eating has not yet become intuitive for me, but I know if time, that it will.
Ingredients one cannot pronounce.
So those who have science/linguistics degrees can eat foods that those who do not have said degrees? What about food from other cultures? I'm sorry, but this rule fir avoiding foods/ingredients has to be the absolute silliest one I've ever seen.
It's right up there with supermarket perimeter shopping. At mine, candy, ice cream and booze line the perimeter. Not bad.
By the way, I did the clean eating thing for years and was vegetarian to boot. I was, yes was, 275lbs and you're telling me calories don't matter. Ok.5 -
There is no Vs. when it comes to this. CICO is the equation to lose weight, Clean Eating is the type of diet you choose to do this.
It's like saying Travel Vs Airplane. Travel is what you are doing, Airplane would be how you get there, instead of car, bike, train ect...
You're eating less food than you burn to lose weight, by "clean" (cringe) eating.8 -
IMO, I think a more important question is, why aren't more people using CICO and CE together? CICO is necessary to lose weight but I think quality of food is equally important. I would think that using them together would compound success. Again, just my opinion.
As for long term, I feel that after you have done CICO for so long you start to know what is the right amount to maintain your weight. Listen to your body, and adjust portions accordingly whether you be CE or not.0 -
paperpudding wrote: »
This doesnt make sense - if one is losing weight one is eating in a calorie deficit.ie calories out are more than calories in.
If one is maitaining weight calories out = calories in. Gaining, calories in are more than calories out.
Whether one 'adheres much to CICO' or not.
Just like one stays attached to the earth whether one adheres much to gravity or not.
I think everyone would agree it is not possible to exactly accurately calculate CICO - but that is ok. Calculate as accurately as you need to , to lose (maintain/gain as desired) - or dont calculate at all, just eat less (or same or more for desired result)
But CICO works for everyone, whether you are doing the calculations or not.
Right, just because CICO isn't an exact science, doesn't mean you aren't doing it, or you wouldn't be losing.
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skinny1soon wrote: »IMO, I think a more important question is, why aren't more people using CICO and CE together? CICO is necessary to lose weight but I think quality of food is equally important. I would think that using them together would compound success. Again, just my opinion.
As for long term, I feel that after you have done CICO for so long you start to know what is the right amount to maintain your weight. Listen to your body, and adjust portions accordingly whether you be CE or not.
You are using CICO no matter what. So everyone that is CE is also CICO, and that is even if they are CE, and gaining weight, it just means their CI is greater than their CO. Besides that, I'm not sure if there is proof that losing weight with a CE diet is any more beneficial to your health, or to losing weight. That and nobody has a real definition of CE.2 -
skinny1soon wrote: »IMO, I think a more important question is, why aren't more people using CICO and CE together? CICO is necessary to lose weight but I think quality of food is equally important. I would think that using them together would compound success. Again, just my opinion.
As for long term, I feel that after you have done CICO for so long you start to know what is the right amount to maintain your weight. Listen to your body, and adjust portions accordingly whether you be CE or not.
"Clean eating" is counter-productive for me because it results in me eliminating foods that make it easier for me to stay at my goal. Foods that either are convenient or promote my health or make it easier for me to meet fitness goals or just make me happy. And for what? I have yet to see anything that demonstrates clear benefits from eliminating these foods.
That's why I don't practice "clean eating." If people find it makes it easier for them to meet their goals and it makes them happy, that's great. But should it be a goal for everyone? No.3 -
I eat dirty.
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skinny1soon wrote: »IMO, I think a more important question is, why aren't more people using CICO and CE together? CICO is necessary to lose weight but I think quality of food is equally important. I would think that using them together would compound success. Again, just my opinion.
As for long term, I feel that after you have done CICO for so long you start to know what is the right amount to maintain your weight. Listen to your body, and adjust portions accordingly whether you be CE or not.
Most of us here would advocate a diet rich in nutrient dense foods and probably even follow an 80/20 rule, but to different people clean eating means different things. If you look at the link I posted originally, you will get the understand.0 -
You are using CICO no matter what. So everyone that is CE is also CICO, and that is even if they are CE, and gaining weight, it just means their CI is greater than their CO. Besides that, I'm not sure if there is proof that losing weight with a CE diet is any more beneficial to your health, or to losing weight. That and nobody has a real definition of CE.
I agree, it does all depend on what one considers CE, my vision of CE would probably differ from yours as well as others.1 -
janejellyroll wrote: »
"Clean eating" is counter-productive for me because it results in me eliminating foods that make it easier for me to stay at my goal. Foods that either are convenient or promote my health or make it easier for me to meet fitness goals or just make me happy. And for what? I have yet to see anything that demonstrates clear benefits from eliminating these foods.
That's why I don't practice "clean eating." If people find it makes it easier for them to meet their goals and it makes them happy, that's great. But should it be a goal for everyone? No.
I didn't say you had to follow CE, since all of us have a different view of what CE is.0 -
skinny1soon wrote: »
I didn't say you had to follow CE, since all of us have a different view of what CE is.
I was answering the question that you asked ("IMO, I think a more important question is, why aren't more people using CICO and CE together?") by providing my perspective on why I don't use them together.2 -
Most of us here would advocate a diet rich in nutrient dense foods and probably even follow an 80/20 rule, but to different people clean eating means different things. If you look at the link I posted originally, you will get the understand.
I"m not arguing that fact.
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janejellyroll wrote: »
I was answering the question that you asked ("IMO, I think a more important question is, why aren't more people using CICO and CE together?") by providing my perspective on why I don't use them together.
Out of curiosity what you would consider to be CE? For me, it would be basically raw fruit and vegetables, nuts. Nothing processed. But in the real world, for me, I wouldn't not be able to live like that for the rest of my life. lol0 -
skinny1soon wrote: »
I don't like the term mainly because it has a lot of gray areas. Would it mean the same to a vegan, paleo, LCHF, etc...? And my other issue is it doesn't guarantee that it will support ones goals. I know a lot of people who complain about not losing weight be eating clean and they don't understand it. And then they look at my diet and can't figure out why I lose 1 lb a week. Essentially, the industry (and more so bloggers/youtubers who dont' have a clue) have confused people so much, that they make it hard to lose weight. And then people fail to address the most important and basic requirement of weight loss... addressing the energy balance requirement (eating less than you burn).
When I train people, i tend to recommend small steps. And step one is always figuring out actual caloric needs.4 -
skinny1soon wrote: »
Out of curiosity what you would consider to be CE? For me, it would be basically raw fruit and vegetables, nuts. Nothing processed. But in the real world, for me, I wouldn't not be able to live like that for the rest of my life. lol
As you've acknowledged, Clean Eating means something different to pretty much everyone you ask. A user has compiled an exhaustive list of all the various examples we see here on a pretty regular basis - quoting it again.Here's the list that @diannethegeek compiled of many definitions offered by various posters for "clean eating". Which definition are we using here? Under some of these definitions Fritos are clean, while avocados are not clean.
So you are saying that to you, clean eating is basically raw foods? Not sure that's even on the list!
But again, you say "nothing processed" - that also is a subjective term. Pretty much everything that is commercially available is processed in some way - and again I would ask - why is the bag of frozen birdseye steamable grains and vegetables (clearly processed) that I just ate for lunch, something that I should eliminate from my diet?4 -
I don't like the term mainly because it has a lot of gray areas. Would it mean the same to a vegan, paleo, LCHF, etc...? And my other issue is it doesn't guarantee that it will support ones goals. I know a lot of people who complain about not losing weight be eating clean and they don't understand it. And then they look at my diet and can't figure out why I lose 1 lb a week. Essentially, the industry (and more so bloggers/youtubers who dont' have a clue) have confused people so much, that they make it hard to lose weight. And then people fail to address the most important and basic requirement of weight loss... addressing the energy balance requirement (eating less than you burn).
When I train people, i tend to recommend small steps. And step one is always figuring out actual caloric needs.
I agree, as I said above in a few replies my view of CE is different then what others would consider CE. My question is more based on what we as individuals view as CE. Which looking back probably should have specified. I assumed people were on the same page as CE being what we personal believe CE to be, and not a general rule with a list.0
This discussion has been closed.
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