When carbs get too low
donjtomasco
Posts: 790 Member
I read on WebMD that as long as you don't go over 3-4 days with 50grams or less of carbs, ketosis won't set in. First I read where Ketosis is not a good thing, then it seems to be that Ketosis is just when the body starts burning fat, which we are striving for.
So i wanted to run this by 'the pro's' in MFP.
I am consistently under what MFP sets for me but never below 50, so I am assuming that I am okay. Do any of you try to eat MORE carbs? And if so why? When I feel like my body is asking for carbs that I am not getting from veggies, I will eat whole wheat toast. I would love to dive into a small stack of flap-jacks but that could head me down that tunnel of no return.....
So i wanted to run this by 'the pro's' in MFP.
I am consistently under what MFP sets for me but never below 50, so I am assuming that I am okay. Do any of you try to eat MORE carbs? And if so why? When I feel like my body is asking for carbs that I am not getting from veggies, I will eat whole wheat toast. I would love to dive into a small stack of flap-jacks but that could head me down that tunnel of no return.....
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Replies
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It looks like hot air popcorn is a good & healthy source of carbs. What other carb snacks do you all like?0
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The body burns fat outside of ketosis as well. I've lost 125+ pounds while eating 50-55% of my calories from carbs almost every day.
Any diet leads to fat loss if you consume fewer calories than your body uses.
Low carb is just one way of eating that some people like. As long as you get adequate nutrients, you can eat a wide combo of macro percentages. The important thing is to find a way of eating that works for you.6 -
Your body will burn fat whenever it needs energy and can't get it from anywhere else. People overthink it so much.
I'm more preoccupied with the idea of a tunnel of flapjacks.10 -
THANKS! I am leaning toward the flapjacks...2
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Ketosis starts once carb intake get below your body's basic needs. Usually below 130g or so. Ketones aren't very measurable until you go lower.
Using ketostix (urine) one usually needs to be under 50g or be quite active; those with insulin resistance may need to go lower to around 20-30g of carbs per day.
Blood ketone monitors will detect lower levels of ketones.
There are a number of low carbers who strive to hit ketosis, often for therapeutic reasons like to treat epilepsy, insulin resistance, PCOS, NAFLD, alzheimers and some cancers. It also works for those who want a steadier energy source than what carbs can provide. For weight loss, ketones may help reduce appetite, but that is the only commonly accepted benefit.
The main fat burning benefit comes to those who are fat adapted (long term keto'ers) who do exercise hard. The fat burning and VO2 max reached by those athletes is quite amazing. For the sedentary among us, we don't reap that benefit.
Edited to add that there is no lower limit of carb intake. Zero carbs would be fine if you chose it.2 -
I don't need very many carbs. Once in awhile I'm like "must eat carbs now" and I'll take a bagel to the face or something and go deadlift. Otherwise, it's carbs from veg and maybe a bit of sugar each day.1
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Carbs are good for you. The theory behind low carb diets is that if you keep your carbs low enough then your body has a hard time processing the food that you are eating, resulting in weight loss. The problem is that if you reach that point then you lack the energy to do much of anything, so your total calorie burn drops. Low carb works okay for couch potatoes. If you are at all active then you are better off eating carbs. I like my fruits and vegetables and pasta and bread. I eat plenty of carbs.0
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TimothyFish wrote: »The theory behind low carb diets is that if you keep your carbs low enough then your body has a hard time processing the food that you are eating, resulting in weight loss.
I'm far from being a low carber but yeah, no, that's not even close to the theory behind low carb diets.11 -
TimothyFish wrote: »Carbs are good for you. The theory behind low carb diets is that if you keep your carbs low enough then your body has a hard time processing the food that you are eating, resulting in weight loss. The problem is that if you reach that point then you lack the energy to do much of anything, so your total calorie burn drops. Low carb works okay for couch potatoes. If you are at all active then you are better off eating carbs. I like my fruits and vegetables and pasta and bread. I eat plenty of carbs.
Yeah, no... It's not the couch potato diet. LOL
I think the fastest extreme endurance athletes in the world are very low carb. 100+ mile races and such craziness.4 -
TimothyFish wrote: »Carbs are good for you. The theory behind low carb diets is that if you keep your carbs low enough then your body has a hard time processing the food that you are eating, resulting in weight loss. The problem is that if you reach that point then you lack the energy to do much of anything, so your total calorie burn drops. Low carb works okay for couch potatoes. If you are at all active then you are better off eating carbs. I like my fruits and vegetables and pasta and bread. I eat plenty of carbs.
Yeah, no... It's not the couch potato diet. LOL
I think the fastest extreme endurance athletes in the world are very low carb. 100+ mile races and such craziness.
"Have you been hearing stories that fats are better than carbs for fuel for endurance athletes? Maybe you have wondered if scientific research supports those stories? To find the latest science, I attended the annual meeting of the American College of Sports Medicine (ACSM). ACSM is an organization with more than 26,000 exercise physiologists, sports nutrition researchers, and sports medicine professionals—all of whom are eager to share both their research and extensive knowledge. At this year’s meeting in San Diego (May 2015), I was able to verify that carbohydrates are indeed, the preferred fuel for all athletes. "
http://www.teamusa.org/USA-Taekwondo/Features/2015/June/12/A-Low-Carb-Diet-for-Athletes2 -
Carlos_421 wrote: »TimothyFish wrote: »The theory behind low carb diets is that if you keep your carbs low enough then your body has a hard time processing the food that you are eating, resulting in weight loss.
I'm far from being a low carber but yeah, no, that's not even close to the theory behind low carb diets.
To quote Robert Atkins himself, "burning fat takes more calories so you expend more calories."0 -
TimothyFish wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »TimothyFish wrote: »The theory behind low carb diets is that if you keep your carbs low enough then your body has a hard time processing the food that you are eating, resulting in weight loss.
I'm far from being a low carber but yeah, no, that's not even close to the theory behind low carb diets.
To quote Robert Atkins himself, "burning fat takes more calories so you expend more calories."
Atkins has been dead for a while now and the people who continue to follow low carb/keto diets do so for other reasons than what he proposed. We've learned a lot about the body since Atkins created his diet.1 -
TimothyFish wrote: »TimothyFish wrote: »Carbs are good for you. The theory behind low carb diets is that if you keep your carbs low enough then your body has a hard time processing the food that you are eating, resulting in weight loss. The problem is that if you reach that point then you lack the energy to do much of anything, so your total calorie burn drops. Low carb works okay for couch potatoes. If you are at all active then you are better off eating carbs. I like my fruits and vegetables and pasta and bread. I eat plenty of carbs.
Yeah, no... It's not the couch potato diet. LOL
I think the fastest extreme endurance athletes in the world are very low carb. 100+ mile races and such craziness.
"Have you been hearing stories that fats are better than carbs for fuel for endurance athletes? Maybe you have wondered if scientific research supports those stories? To find the latest science, I attended the annual meeting of the American College of Sports Medicine (ACSM). ACSM is an organization with more than 26,000 exercise physiologists, sports nutrition researchers, and sports medicine professionals—all of whom are eager to share both their research and extensive knowledge. At this year’s meeting in San Diego (May 2015), I was able to verify that carbohydrates are indeed, the preferred fuel for all athletes. "
http://www.teamusa.org/USA-Taekwondo/Features/2015/June/12/A-Low-Carb-Diet-for-Athletes
They are referencing high intensity exercise. Stuff like a 100m race. Endurance sports are fueled extremely well by ketosis. I'm talking 100 mile, not 100 metre.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/11/151117091234.htm
http://www.mensfitness.com/nutrition/what-to-eat/truth-behind-worlds-most-cutting-edge-fat-burning-performance-meal-plan-keto
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One of the weight loss shows had 2 twins on. One was on a regular low calorie diet the other was on a low carb diet. At the end they both lost the same amount but the low carb twin struggled with the workouts and had more fatigue.1
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Carlos_421 wrote: »TimothyFish wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »TimothyFish wrote: »The theory behind low carb diets is that if you keep your carbs low enough then your body has a hard time processing the food that you are eating, resulting in weight loss.
I'm far from being a low carber but yeah, no, that's not even close to the theory behind low carb diets.
To quote Robert Atkins himself, "burning fat takes more calories so you expend more calories."
Atkins has been dead for a while now and the people who continue to follow low carb/keto diets do so for other reasons than what he proposed. We've learned a lot about the body since Atkins created his diet.
I love low carb and am personally in phase 2 for Southbeach. That being said your diet should absolutely match lifestyle.
Endurance athletes need carbs. Often times you'll hear about a marathoner "carb loading " the night before the race. That is because your body NEEDS glycogen for this. when you eat carbs, initially it is stored in your muscles for quick and easy access. You burn about 100 kCal per mile you complete (whether running or walking) So when you complete 26+ miles your body burns 2,600 calories just during the race. That's not to mention the calories needed for repair work later. Having easily accessible glycogen in the muscles is much more beneficial for an endurance athlete than being on a low carb diet where your body first has to convert the fat to glycogen. I can't imagine how any endurance athlete could finish on top without readily available glycogen.
Granted, the carbs they eat are good ones (whole grain, fruit, etc) but for endurance type activities an athlete needs that readily available fuel.0 -
One of the weight loss shows had 2 twins on. One was on a regular low calorie diet the other was on a low carb diet. At the end they both lost the same amount but the low carb twin struggled with the workouts and had more fatigue.
I eat low carb/keto and I do intense weight lifting sessions 4-5 days a week and in my n=1 experiment, none of my workouts have suffered for eating the way that I am eating. In fact, I have made significant gains in the max values for all of my lifts within the same time period. I also sleep better, have more energy thru the day and am much more mentally awake eating this way than I ever was eating the standard carb based diet (plus, I don't get the 'carb crash' after eating that I would experience eating a high carb meal).
ETA:
To address the OP's question/observation, ketosis is a normal bodily function that is neither good nor bad - it simply is the body's way of dealing with a lack of carbs in the diet. A lot of people associate ketosis - a normal condition - with ketoacidocis (sp) - a life-threatening condition that requires immediate medical attention - and they are not even close to the same thing. As a point of fact, there are several medical conditions (epilepsy for example) where a diet that forces ketosis is actually used as a way to alleviate the condition.2 -
tmoneyag99 wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »TimothyFish wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »TimothyFish wrote: »The theory behind low carb diets is that if you keep your carbs low enough then your body has a hard time processing the food that you are eating, resulting in weight loss.
I'm far from being a low carber but yeah, no, that's not even close to the theory behind low carb diets.
To quote Robert Atkins himself, "burning fat takes more calories so you expend more calories."
Atkins has been dead for a while now and the people who continue to follow low carb/keto diets do so for other reasons than what he proposed. We've learned a lot about the body since Atkins created his diet.
I love low carb and am personally in phase 2 for Southbeach. That being said your diet should absolutely match lifestyle.
Endurance athletes need carbs. Often times you'll hear about a marathoner "carb loading " the night before the race. That is because your body NEEDS glycogen for this. when you eat carbs, initially it is stored in your muscles for quick and easy access. You burn about 100 kCal per mile you complete (whether running or walking) So when you complete 26+ miles your body burns 2,600 calories just during the race. That's not to mention the calories needed for repair work later. Having easily accessible glycogen in the muscles is much more beneficial for an endurance athlete than being on a low carb diet where your body first has to convert the fat to glycogen. I can't imagine how any endurance athlete could finish on top without readily available glycogen.
Granted, the carbs they eat are good ones (whole grain, fruit, etc) but for endurance type activities an athlete needs that readily available fuel.
They don't necessarily have to be "good" carbohydrates (putting that in quotation marks because I'm skeptical of the theory that some carbohydrates are bad). I did marathon training last year and the night before my long runs I always had pizza for dinner (made with white flour) and I'd bring along Gu packs, literally little bags of sugar. I know runners who fuel with bagels (white flour usually, because many people find it uncomfortable to eat higher fiber foods while running or right before running). During ultra-marathons, you'll see people drinking Coca-Cola to refuel or eating jelly beans.
Do runners eat whole grains and fruit? Absolutely. But our bodies are perfectly capable of transforming "bad" carbohydrates into powerful fuel.0 -
LMAO... I loveTimothyFish wrote: »Carbs are good for you. The theory behind low carb diets is that if you keep your carbs low enough then your body has a hard time processing the food that you are eating, resulting in weight loss. The problem is that if you reach that point then you lack the energy to do much of anything, so your total calorie burn drops. Low carb works okay for couch potatoes. If you are at all active then you are better off eating carbs. I like my fruits and vegetables and pasta and bread. I eat plenty of carbs.
Agreed this is not the couch potato diet. What makes low carb diets work is the fact that your blood sugar is stabelized and you don't have such huge peaks and valleys. You're less likely to over eat when after 2 boiled eggs (200 kCal) for breakfast you are satisfied. While I haven't personally seen the research stats on people's fat loss (Versus lean tissue loss) while on low carb diets, I DO know it is recommended by my Cardiologist and I do know they have had much more success with heart patients and insulin resistent patients being about to follow a low carb diet than a low fat diet. (Diet adherence is the number one issue in improving heart health) When you are talking about a patient with 100+ lbs of weight to lose, High Cholesterol, type II diabetes &/or other types of heart disease you want them on a diet that they can stick with.
Some people are predisposed to all of the above because of genetics. So why wouldn't even a healthy adult that knows this about his/her genetics use the dieting method that is easiest for them to maintain good health? If that is low carb (I eat WAY more veggies when I do low carb which is a good thing) then who is anyone else to nay say.
If an endurance runner finds that a high fat diet improves their performance... More power to them.
I think what all of the detractors fail to recognize is that our bodies evolved over millions of years to adapt to the food sources readily available to our ancestors. Depending on where people were in the world that varied considerably.
Tropical locations had diets higher in carbs because things like rice, sweet potatos and fruit were in large abundance.
Native Americans had large amounts of game at their access.
Norse - lots of fish and wheats.
If a person has found a diet for them that works, keeps them relatively healthy, and functioning optimally for their life style AND their doctor supports the diet.... Then no one else really gets a say.1 -
One of the weight loss shows had 2 twins on. One was on a regular low calorie diet the other was on a low carb diet. At the end they both lost the same amount but the low carb twin struggled with the workouts and had more fatigue.
I have fraternal but very nearly identical twins and one naturally gravitates more towards carbs than the other. Both are built similarly (long and lean) but have slight differences in build. My sister has identical twins, too young to show much in the way of build, but one has serious thyroid issues while the other doesn't. My husband has cousins who are twins and one is tall and stocky and the other is short and slender. I would hesitate to immediately trust the show because the people in question were twins. Even identical twins can have different body/health issues.
All this to say people should experiment and do what works for them. I've heard some people have loads of energy on low carb and others have none. For me a change in medication changed the number of carbs I eat, how often, and when.
Popcorn is an excellent carb-y snack, OP.
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LowCarb4Me2016 wrote: »One of the weight loss shows had 2 twins on. One was on a regular low calorie diet the other was on a low carb diet. At the end they both lost the same amount but the low carb twin struggled with the workouts and had more fatigue.
I have fraternal but very nearly identical twins and one naturally gravitates more towards carbs than the other. Both are built similarly (long and lean) but have slight differences in build. My sister has identical twins, too young to show much in the way of build, but one has serious thyroid issues while the other doesn't. My husband has cousins who are twins and one is tall and stocky and the other is short and slender. I would hesitate to immediately trust the show because the people in question were twins. Even identical twins can have different body/health issues.
All this to say people should experiment and do what works for them. I've heard some people have loads of energy on low carb and others have none. For me a change in medication changed the number of carbs I eat, how often, and when.
Popcorn is an excellent carb-y snack, OP.
THIS. We don't know what those two twins were doing differently. Maybe the low carb twin was stayin up late at night. Maybe he/she wasn't doing things on their own.
PLUS television shows edit the crap out of that stuff for ratings.1 -
Hmm I'm a qualified swimming coach and while I can only state what is true for swimming I assume carbs is the primary source for energy for most athletes. We encourage different types at different times chocolate milk immediately prior to training for example. Lunch time slow release low glycemic. Every meal should have a balance of carbs protein and fat. Your body needs all of these to function properly0
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Hmm I'm a qualified swimming coach and while I can only state what is true for swimming I assume carbs is the primary source for energy for most athletes. We encourage different types at different times chocolate milk immediately prior to training for example. Lunch time slow release low glycemic. Every meal should have a balance of carbs protein and fat. Your body needs all of these to function properly
Nope. Carbs are not an essential macro - your body can manufacture all of the carbs (glycogen) that it needs from protein and fat, which are the only two essential macro-nutrients.2 -
tmoneyag99 wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »TimothyFish wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »TimothyFish wrote: »The theory behind low carb diets is that if you keep your carbs low enough then your body has a hard time processing the food that you are eating, resulting in weight loss.
I'm far from being a low carber but yeah, no, that's not even close to the theory behind low carb diets.
To quote Robert Atkins himself, "burning fat takes more calories so you expend more calories."
Atkins has been dead for a while now and the people who continue to follow low carb/keto diets do so for other reasons than what he proposed. We've learned a lot about the body since Atkins created his diet.
I love low carb and am personally in phase 2 for Southbeach. That being said your diet should absolutely match lifestyle.
Endurance athletes need carbs. Often times you'll hear about a marathoner "carb loading " the night before the race. That is because your body NEEDS glycogen for this. when you eat carbs, initially it is stored in your muscles for quick and easy access. You burn about 100 kCal per mile you complete (whether running or walking) So when you complete 26+ miles your body burns 2,600 calories just during the race. That's not to mention the calories needed for repair work later. Having easily accessible glycogen in the muscles is much more beneficial for an endurance athlete than being on a low carb diet where your body first has to convert the fat to glycogen. I can't imagine how any endurance athlete could finish on top without readily available glycogen.
Granted, the carbs they eat are good ones (whole grain, fruit, etc) but for endurance type activities an athlete needs that readily available fuel.
To the bolded, those who are fat adapted (have been ketogenic for weeks or months) will not need glycogen reserves for a long exercise session or endurance race. Those individuals will burn an amazing amount of fat (dietary and body) during their exercise. Glycogen use is found to be similar to that as a carb burner. No carbs are needed.
The FASTER study by Volek looked into this a year or so ago. It's an interesting read, and not something ever tested before.
The FASTER study (aka Metabolic characteristics of keto-adapted ultra-endurance runners) : http://www.metabolismjournal.com/article/S0026-0495(15)00334-0/fulltext
Summary:
"RESULTS:
Peak fat oxidation was 2.3-fold higher in the LC group (1.54±0.18 vs 0.67±0.14 g/min; P=0.000) and it occurred at a higher percentage of VO2max (70.3±6.3 vs 54.9±7.8%; P=0.000). Mean fat oxidation during submaximal exercise was 59% higher in the LC group (1.21±0.02 vs 0.76±0.11 g/min; P=0.000) corresponding to a greater relative contribution of fat (88±2 vs 56±8%; P=0.000). Despite these marked differences in fuel use between LC and HC athletes, there were no significant differences in resting muscle glycogen and the level of depletion after 180 min of running (-64% from pre-exercise) and 120 min of recovery (-36% from pre-exercise).
CONCLUSION:
Compared to highly trained ultra-endurance athletes consuming an HC diet, long-term keto-adaptation results in extraordinarily high rates of fat oxidation, whereas muscle glycogen utilization and repletion patterns during and after a 3 hour run are similar."
ETA, carb loading is mainly helpful to athletes who are relying on carbs for fuel.1 -
Hmm I'm a qualified swimming coach and while I can only state what is true for swimming I assume carbs is the primary source for energy for most athletes. We encourage different types at different times chocolate milk immediately prior to training for example. Lunch time slow release low glycemic. Every meal should have a balance of carbs protein and fat. Your body needs all of these to function properly
You really don't NEED carbs. They may be helpful for that final burst of energy at the end of the race, but the keto adapted athlete who is swimming a an endurance, many hour race, will not have to pause to eat more to fuel their race after a few hours.2 -
I think the winner of Tour De France in 2015 and 2016, Chris Froome, could share some insight regarding his ketogenic diet and whether or not carbs are needed for endurance.1
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Hmm I'm a qualified swimming coach and while I can only state what is true for swimming I assume carbs is the primary source for energy for most athletes. We encourage different types at different times chocolate milk immediately prior to training for example. Lunch time slow release low glycemic. Every meal should have a balance of carbs protein and fat. Your body needs all of these to function properly
Nope. Carbs are not an essential macro - your body can manufacture all of the carbs (glycogen) that it needs from protein and fat, which are the only two essential macro-nutrients.
Even the amount of essential fat is pretty low. IIRC, about 2.7g of EFA daily, in the proper ratios, is enough to cover those needs. Point being, what is essential is a pretty poor marker for what is optimal.
Of course, what is optimal always depends upon goals.2 -
I did Lchf and lost 6 kilos in 10 days. This way of eating wasn't sustainable and alas I put it back on very quickly:-( minimising the amount of complex carbs will help on yr weight lose journey, good luck0
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Why is not sustainable? What were you eating?
I'm doing LCHF since November, and I'm perfectly fine.
However, you say you've lost 6kg in 10 days, which to me seems quite unusual. I'm pretty sure very little of those 6kg was actually fat.0 -
Yea I think it was water weight. Water follows carbs. I'm a workin single mum and I'm lazy I guess lol i found it hard to prepare meals for my kids that they wld eat and I Cld eat. U think I should try again?0
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0.05% of the world's elite athletes do keto.
No thanks.0
This discussion has been closed.
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