Looking to gain muscle mass without bulking
arlanderbrown3
Posts: 8 Member
Where to start...I used to lift seriously for about 5 years and at my peak was 215 and pretty shredded. Things changed and I stopped lifting for about 5 years, until now!
Getting back at it has been slow and frustrating knowing what I was once capable of, but I am finally at the stage of craving the gym daily and loving it.
Currently I am about 206 lbs and fairly lean. I am 6'3" and about to be 35. My goal is to continue to cut up but also put on 15 lbs of muscle. I know this is a difficult task but I am willing to put in the time and effort. With this in mind, I have drastically changed my diet, cutting out fried food, giving up alcohol (except for special occasions), limiting my sugar intake, and generally trying to eat clean. As of this week, with the goal of gaining, I have started to count calories (hence joining this community) and I am on a 3,500 cal diet.
So, I am looking for ideas and suggestions on all fronts, diet and routines. My problem areas (or target areas for growth) are legs, forarms, and chest. I hope the community will provide useful information that we can all learn from. Thanks!
Getting back at it has been slow and frustrating knowing what I was once capable of, but I am finally at the stage of craving the gym daily and loving it.
Currently I am about 206 lbs and fairly lean. I am 6'3" and about to be 35. My goal is to continue to cut up but also put on 15 lbs of muscle. I know this is a difficult task but I am willing to put in the time and effort. With this in mind, I have drastically changed my diet, cutting out fried food, giving up alcohol (except for special occasions), limiting my sugar intake, and generally trying to eat clean. As of this week, with the goal of gaining, I have started to count calories (hence joining this community) and I am on a 3,500 cal diet.
So, I am looking for ideas and suggestions on all fronts, diet and routines. My problem areas (or target areas for growth) are legs, forarms, and chest. I hope the community will provide useful information that we can all learn from. Thanks!
1
Replies
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Are you familiar with the keto diet and Ketones?0
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1) Cut to 10-12% then bulk.
Or
2) Recomp
Personally I'd go for option 1 as your hormones will be optimal and you'll be able to bulk for longer without getting too fat. 15lbs of muscle is likely to take many years if you're natural.3 -
domingoestradajr wrote: »Are you familiar with the keto diet and Ketones?
Can't say that I am. Is it something I should look into?0 -
trigden1991 wrote: »1) Cut to 10-12% then bulk.
Or
2) Recomp
Personally I'd go for option 1 as your hormones will be optimal and you'll be able to bulk for longer without getting too fat. 15lbs of muscle is likely to take many years if you're natural.
I am currently right around 10% but the goal is not to bulk. I want to gain and I definitely want to be natural to do so.0 -
You have to bulk to gain muscle. You will gain fat as well just how it goes. . If you don't bulk it will take you years to see much progress. That's the truth. It's always the people trying to do things half way that font get results0
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You have to bulk to gain muscle. You will gain fat as well just how it goes. . If you don't bulk it will take you years to see much progress. That's the truth. It's always the people trying to do things half way that font get results
Right now I'm eating about 3500 calories a day. My maintenance is around 3000 but I am extremely active in regular life, should I be eating more. While I am just returning to lifting, I would lightly argue that the idea of bulking as the only way to gain muscle mass is the status quo and that there are other options that exist. However, I could be wrong. I am just searching for ideas outside the box.0 -
Don't forget that your eating schedule will make a difference too. I found that getting in a scoop of whey first thing in the morning helps to move out of a catabolic state as well as switching to a scoop of casein (vs. whey) before bed to try an keep the protein synthesis going throughout the night.
Also, remember that each pound is 3,500 calories, so if you're eating 3,500 and burning 3,000 your +500 each day or +3,500 a week which is 1 lb of gain. Your 15 lbs will come quickly, but agree with the above it'll be both muscle and fat.
I use a tracker for a more accurate understanding of how much I'm burning, might help to pace yourself with gains if you don't already have one.0 -
arlanderbrown3 wrote: »You have to bulk to gain muscle. You will gain fat as well just how it goes. . If you don't bulk it will take you years to see much progress. That's the truth. It's always the people trying to do things half way that font get results
Right now I'm eating about 3500 calories a day. My maintenance is around 3000 but I am extremely active in regular life, should I be eating more. While I am just returning to lifting, I would lightly argue that the idea of bulking as the only way to gain muscle mass is the status quo and that there are other options that exist. However, I could be wrong. I am just searching for ideas outside the box.
Eating above maintenance, lifting heavy... you ARE bulking...4 -
arlanderbrown3 wrote: »trigden1991 wrote: »1) Cut to 10-12% then bulk.
Or
2) Recomp
Personally I'd go for option 1 as your hormones will be optimal and you'll be able to bulk for longer without getting too fat. 15lbs of muscle is likely to take many years if you're natural.
I am currently right around 10% but the goal is not to bulk. I want to gain and I definitely want to be natural to do so.
10% ? If the picture you posted is current you don't look like 10% body fat to me. How are you estimating BF%?
BTW - you are truly eating above maintenance you would be gaining weight then you are indeed bulking which contradicts your title a bit. Is "lean bulking" what you are trying to do (gaining size with minimal fat gain)?
PS - If you want to see someone who has had spectacular results from recomp look @Hornsby5 -
Jeeeze this thread!!!You have to bulk to gain muscle. You will gain fat as well just how it goes. . If you don't bulk it will take you years to see much progress. That's the truth. It's always the people trying to do things half way that font get results
Not really, you don't HAVE to bulk and recomps don't necessarily take years - the choice to recomp or bulk is individual and needs to consider time frame but also the trainees attitude towards fat gain. I'd agree that (for most) bulk then cut is more efficient (time-wise) but that is not a universal truth and th OP has stated that he doesn't mind if it takes a long time.Don't forget that your eating schedule will make a difference too. I found that getting in a scoop of whey first thing in the morning helps to move out of a catabolic state as well as switching to a scoop of casein (vs. whey) before bed to try an keep the protein synthesis going throughout the night.
Also, remember that each pound is 3,500 calories, so if you're eating 3,500 and burning 3,000 your +500 each day or +3,500 a week which is 1 lb of gain. Your 15 lbs will come quickly, but agree with the above it'll be both muscle and fat.
I use a tracker for a more accurate understanding of how much I'm burning, might help to pace yourself with gains if you don't already have one.
Time and time again studies have shown that eating schedules make little to zero difference in fat loss, or hypertrophy. It really is the domain of the top end competitors and athletes who are looking to eek out that extra 0.5% advantage.
And, 3,500 calories per lb is a pretty crappy rule of thumb even when based on the calorific values for fat loss (becuse it is the calorific value of 1lb fat) but it has nothing to do with muscle gain (since a) 1lb of lean protein would have about 1800 cals b) strength induced weight gain (as opposed to fat gain) is lean body mass gain, but that is not all muscle).
OP - cutting out fried food, giving up alcohol (except for special occasions), limiting my sugar intake, and generally trying to eat clean may help but actually none of that is essential. But, if it makes you feel good and your training is going well then keep at it. But, people try to make this all too complicated - these are the basics.- Utilize an established, progressive lifting program that is designed for your goals (http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10332083/which-lifting-program-is-the-best-for-you#latest) do not make one up or copy the biggest guy in the gym.
- Pick a calorific target and track your food, weighing everything. Ensure adequate protein and fat.
- Monitor you lifting progress and your body composition (weight, some tape measurements, BF is you have access to something reliable: i.e. NOT ELECTRICAL BIO-IMPEDANCE) - if things are moving in the right direction, kepp going, if you're gettign a little fluffy, drop a couple of hundred cals or run a mini-cut, failing on some lifts? Add a a couple of hundred cals anbd take it from there.
- Get plenty of sleep and try to keep your stress levels down
6 -
10% ? If the picture you posted is current you don't look like 10% body fat to me. How are you estimating BF%?
BTW - you are truly eating above maintenance you would be gaining weight then you are indeed bulking which contradicts your title a bit. Is "lean bulking" what you are trying to do (gaining size with minimal fat gain)?
PS - If you want to see someone who has had spectacular results from recomp look @Hornsby
I am definitely off now on my BF% now that I googled pics of what 10-12% BF looks like. I estimated using caliper with three measurements. I will try to get a more accurate measurement today. And I'll check out @Hornsby.
So as I said, I am really just getting back to weight training. It has been a while and when I previously lifted, I was naive to the nutrition aspects of training...being 25 and not 35 made that doable. So please bare with me. I really appreciate the information.
With that said, I think part of my issue is that I walk an avarage of 15,000 steps a day. So while I'm over maintenance, if I understand correctly I am, I am most likely negating the extra calories.
So yes, in the end, "lean bulking" would be acceptable. Or do you still recommend your first suggestion to get down to 10-12% BF and then try to bulk for real and then shred?
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StealthHealth wrote: »Jeeeze this thread!!!
I actually greatful for the responses...besides the spam.
Thanks for the plethora of great information. Very conscice and well written. I might start with your first recommendation...picking an established program. I have kinda fallen into old habits of what worked when I was younger because I could not find a program that I lived, but in retrospect I think I should rethink that. And as for nutrition, I think I am doing okay at present, but I'll adjust like u suggested. Thanks again!0 -
arlanderbrown3 wrote: »
10% ? If the picture you posted is current you don't look like 10% body fat to me. How are you estimating BF%?
BTW - you are truly eating above maintenance you would be gaining weight then you are indeed bulking which contradicts your title a bit. Is "lean bulking" what you are trying to do (gaining size with minimal fat gain)?
PS - If you want to see someone who has had spectacular results from recomp look @Hornsby
I am definitely off now on my BF% now that I googled pics of what 10-12% BF looks like. I estimated using caliper with three measurements. I will try to get a more accurate measurement today. And I'll check out @Hornsby.
So as I said, I am really just getting back to weight training. It has been a while and when I previously lifted, I was naive to the nutrition aspects of training...being 25 and not 35 made that doable. So please bare with me. I really appreciate the information.
With that said, I think part of my issue is that I walk an avarage of 15,000 steps a day. So while I'm over maintenance, if I understand correctly I am, I am most likely negating the extra calories.
So yes, in the end, "lean bulking" would be acceptable. Or do you still recommend your first suggestion to get down to 10-12% BF and then try to bulk for real and then shred?
Remember that estimated maintenance levels are just that, an estimate - a reasonable starting point. Your actual weight loss gain/loss over time confirms your real maintenance levels. Your logging accuracy can also throw out even a super accurate estimate of course.
You have two options but both involve training hard/effectively and eating a diet that supports your training.
With aim of adding 15lbs of muscle patience will also be required.
1/ What is now mainstream - cut/bulk cycles.
2/ What used to be mainstream - recomp.
Whether one is actually more effective than the other (for natural lifters) is open for debate. I've yet to see a genuine clinical trial that compares long term results and speed of results. Gym lore will state cut/bulk is faster or even state (falsely) you can't gain muscle without a surplus.
In the end it's your choice. I've never bulked/cut but I'm not you!
(My potential for rapid growth is long gone so a surplus just means getting fat.)
What will definitely help you is....
Returning to a previous training high point should make your progress quicker.I used to lift seriously for about 5 years and at my peak was 215 and pretty shredded
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You can put on lean muscle without bulking... Im about to start this 6 week cylce now. I still lift heavy but increase reps. You dont have to lift heavy and minimal reps to put on muscle.... some muscles respond very well to this.0
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For forams... try half cleans. Great for the traps and you will feel it in your forams to. Especially to begin with as your traps will be stronger than your forarms.0
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arlanderbrown3 wrote: »domingoestradajr wrote: »Are you familiar with the keto diet and Ketones?
Can't say that I am. Is it something I should look into?
No it's not. Keto makes it more difficult to gain muscle, and even then, you would have to experiment with TKD/CKD/ketogains styles. Carbs are your friend in a bulk (and even in a cut).
I will say, if you would recomp, gaining 15 lbs of muscle, probably would take 2 years. @Hornsby gained about 15-20 in that timeframe. Since you are a returning athlete, you do have an advantage.
Whether or not you should cut first, depends on if you can deal with the fat. Personally, I would get more lean first, as your body is more primed to build muscle. As you start to gain more fat, you become more insulin sensitive, which gives your body the ability to store more nutrients as fat. At least that is what i understand in terms of calorie partitioning.5 -
Honestly if I were you I would just focus on lifting consistency and performance using a reasonable program that has some form of progression built in. Lyle's GBR would be one example.
Set calories right around maintenance levels and lift and you'll do fine.
I'd make sure you're training each muscle group at least 2/week.4 -
Don't forget that your eating schedule will make a difference too. I found that getting in a scoop of whey first thing in the morning helps to move out of a catabolic state as well as switching to a scoop of casein (vs. whey) before bed to try an keep the protein synthesis going throughout the night.
Also, remember that each pound is 3,500 calories, so if you're eating 3,500 and burning 3,000 your +500 each day or +3,500 a week which is 1 lb of gain. Your 15 lbs will come quickly, but agree with the above it'll be both muscle and fat.
I use a tracker for a more accurate understanding of how much I'm burning, might help to pace yourself with gains if you don't already have one.
meal timing is negligible for 99% of the population...1 -
arlanderbrown3 wrote: »domingoestradajr wrote: »Are you familiar with the keto diet and Ketones?
Can't say that I am. Is it something I should look into?
No it's not. Keto makes it more difficult to gain muscle, and even then, you would have to experiment with TKD/CKD/ketogains styles. Carbs are your friend in a bulk (and even in a cut).
I will say, if you would recomp, gaining 15 lbs of muscle, probably would take 2 years. @Hornsby gained about 15-20 in that timeframe. Since you are a returning athlete, you do have an advantage.
Whether or not you should cut first, depends on if you can deal with the fat. Personally, I would get more lean first, as your body is more primed to build muscle. As you start to gain more fat, you become more insulin sensitive, which gives your body the ability to store more nutrients as fat. At least that is what i understand in terms of calorie partitioning.
pretty much this ..
if you want to cut/bulk/recomp you are going to need to get your body fat down to 12-15% range. Once you get there you can decide which route you want to go.
I would suggest finding a program and sticking to it for three to four months. Since you are just getting back into lifting maybe strong lifts for a bit to get back into it and then transition to something more intermediate...?2 -
Honestly if I were you I would just focus on lifting consistency and performance using a reasonable program that has some form of progression built in. Lyle's GBR would be one example.
Set calories right around maintenance levels and lift and you'll do fine.
I'd make sure you're training each muscle group at least 2/week.
Cosigned.2 -
I know it can be hard to eat that much healthy food in a day so here is what I personally suggest. Eat smaller and more frequent meals. Try starting the day with a light breakfast, like a smoothie and some eggs, so you will be hungrier throughout the day. I would recommend getting a majority of protein later on. For example you could have lots of fruit, healthy fat, and complex carbs early on and a big source of protein and veggies for dinner. For me not having carbs in the evening gets me a better sleep as well. Having nuts, seeds, and dried fruit as a late night snack could help a lot too. Hope this is useful and good luck!1
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I really appreciate everyone opinion and advice. So I have decided to implement the PHAT program since many people mentioned the importance of sticking with a known program that get results. I like this program for the mix of power lifting and bodybuilding and I think it will help me see growth. I am also going to take the advice to eat around maintenance for now and concentrate on proformance and gaining strength.0
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Hey Arlander, sounds like we're in a similar training situation. I took about five years off of training and lost all the muscle (and fat) I had worked hard to build. What I'm doing differently this time is that I now know the importance of macros and caloric intake.
When I bulked previously I did so by eating too much fat, and consequently gained a bunch of fat along with muscle. This time I'm eating much more carbs and keeping a log so I can track weight and if the calories I'm consuming are moving me in the right direction. I now know that ~2,800 calories will keep me around 186 lbs at 6'6". I want to get to 200 lbs, so I'm going to start eating a few more hundred calories a day to see where my weight plateaus next.
I think you'll find that if you monitor your food intake, your weight and fat, it will become clear you need to up your calories when you aren't gaining weight/muscle.
Best of luck in your training, and hope to see you update this thread when you've reached your goals!
T1
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