Vegan???

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  • cwolfman13
    cwolfman13 Posts: 41,874 Member
    edited March 2017
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    ikaraboutu2 wrote: »
    re: Statement in bold - That is highly unlikely.

    Omnivourous diets can be bad for you and vegetarian or vegan diets be better for you, but the opposite can also be true. To say that en mass animal based food is bad is a bold claim and most likely reflects poor data sources rather than "evidence".
    Have you ever heard of the China study? http://www.benbellavegan.com/book/the-china-study/
    Also, research the works of Drs. T. Colin Campbell and Caldwell Esselstyn. There is plenty of "evidence" against animal based foods. Like everything else, you just have to research it.

    You might try looking at the criticism the China Study received from the scientific community...the data doesn't actually back up the conclusions...Campbell cherry picked to arrive at conclusions that he was already biased towards so he could write a book.
  • ikaraboutu2
    ikaraboutu2 Posts: 8 Member
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    cwolfman13 wrote: »
    You might try looking at the criticism the China Study received from the scientific community...the data doesn't actually back up the conclusions...Campbell cherry picked to arrive at conclusions that he was already biased towards so he could write a book.

    Like I said, everything needs research! Forks Over Knives ties together the China study very well, and I would highly suggest watching that video. It's not fear mongering and honestly the research that I've done has led me to believe what they say! Especially in regards to dairy – The only animals that should be eating dairy are cows, as it is only just bovine growth hormone. Unless you want to be a 400 pound calf
  • janejellyroll
    janejellyroll Posts: 25,763 Member
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    ikaraboutu2 wrote: »
    cwolfman13 wrote: »
    You might try looking at the criticism the China Study received from the scientific community...the data doesn't actually back up the conclusions...Campbell cherry picked to arrive at conclusions that he was already biased towards so he could write a book.

    Like I said, everything needs research! Forks Over Knives ties together the China study very well, and I would highly suggest watching that video. It's not fear mongering and honestly the research that I've done has led me to believe what they say! Especially in regards to dairy – The only animals that should be eating dairy are cows, as it is only just bovine growth hormone. Unless you want to be a 400 pound calf

    Humans have consumed dairy for thousands of years and generally managed to maintain healthy body weights until very recently. I don't think dairy is the reason people are struggling with their weight.
  • lemurcat12
    lemurcat12 Posts: 30,886 Member
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    ikaraboutu2 wrote: »
    The only animals that should be eating dairy are cows, as it is only just bovine growth hormone. Unless you want to be a 400 pound calf

    This is the kind of claim that discredits the kind of propaganda you are talking about.

    Calves gain weight quickly as babies to become fully grown cows. They are genetically programmed to do so. That does not mean that drinking milk will cause humans to gain weight beyond the calories consumed -- that makes no sense at all, and I'd like a reasoned scientific explanation of how that could be. Traditional cultures that have consumed dairy are/were not on average fatter than others.

    (This is no different in kind from the argument that anti carb sorts make about how cows get fat on grains -- which they do -- and thus grains are bad for humans.)

    And yes, if you focus on anti animal food propaganda I am not surprised you would be convinced (no surprise that FoK, which is largely based on the China Study does not cover the information to the contrary). That's the sad thing that seems to happen whenever people approach a topic in a one-sided way.
  • ikaraboutu2
    ikaraboutu2 Posts: 8 Member
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    janejellyroll wrote: »

    Humans have consumed dairy for thousands of years and generally managed to maintain healthy body weights until very recently. I don't think dairy is the reason people are struggling with their weight.

    OK, the way I see it is that you all can argue with me and spam this girl's post… Or you can do your research like I keep saying. And don't stop just because you hear something criticized. If someone criticized your weight-loss would you stop?
    Not to mention, it's not just about the weight loss with dairy but it's also about the cancer-causing agent casein in it. Again, seriously! Watch Forks Over Knives! You may look good on the outside, but what's going on on the inside with your health? For myself all I know is that my cholesterol levels, my blood pressure, and my weight have all reached normal or begin to decrease since becoming a vegan.
    Catch you all later! Do your research! B)
  • nevadavis1
    nevadavis1 Posts: 331 Member
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    janejellyroll wrote: »
    Humans have consumed dairy for thousands of years and generally managed to maintain healthy body weights until very recently. I don't think dairy is the reason people are struggling with their weight.

    Although for most of history it was a luxury item that most peoples consumed in very small quantities, and/or was mainly consumed by the wealthy. It was also a geographic issue. Europeans consumed dairy, but many populations on other continents did not and as a result lactose intolerance is far more common in those populations.

    And since average life expectancy has been increasing over time (until a little dip recently) more people are getting the "old age" illnesses like heart disease and cancer.

    Another concern I would have is that most of the dairy people can buy in the store is not like it "used to be" in ancient times. For one thing cows have been bred to be practically disabled by the size of their udders and the volume of their milk production--this means those cows produce more hormones. In addition many times hormones and drugs (antibiotics) are fed to the animals. Further, cows used to graze on grass, but many are fed more calorie-dense grain now to make them produce even more milk.
  • StealthHealth
    StealthHealth Posts: 2,417 Member
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    ikaraboutu2 wrote: »
    cwolfman13 wrote: »
    You might try looking at the criticism the China Study received from the scientific community...the data doesn't actually back up the conclusions...Campbell cherry picked to arrive at conclusions that he was already biased towards so he could write a book.

    Like I said, everything needs research! Forks Over Knives ties together the China study very well, and I would highly suggest watching that video. It's not fear mongering and honestly the research that I've done has led me to believe what they say! Especially in regards to dairy – The only animals that should be eating dairy are cows, as it is only just bovine growth hormone. Unless you want to be a 400 pound calf

    Yes - I've heard of the China Study, I place little importance on it but even that study looks like a masterpiece of science when compared to Forks Over Knives.

  • janejellyroll
    janejellyroll Posts: 25,763 Member
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    nevadavis1 wrote: »
    janejellyroll wrote: »
    Humans have consumed dairy for thousands of years and generally managed to maintain healthy body weights until very recently. I don't think dairy is the reason people are struggling with their weight.

    Although for most of history it was a luxury item that most peoples consumed in very small quantities, and/or was mainly consumed by the wealthy. It was also a geographic issue. Europeans consumed dairy, but many populations on other continents did not and as a result lactose intolerance is far more common in those populations.

    And since average life expectancy has been increasing over time (until a little dip recently) more people are getting the "old age" illnesses like heart disease and cancer.

    Another concern I would have is that most of the dairy people can buy in the store is not like it "used to be" in ancient times. For one thing cows have been bred to be practically disabled by the size of their udders and the volume of their milk production--this means those cows produce more hormones. In addition many times hormones and drugs (antibiotics) are fed to the animals. Further, cows used to graze on grass, but many are fed more calorie-dense grain now to make them produce even more milk.

    But none of that suggests that consuming dairy will -- in and of itself -- create weight gain.

    I mean, dairy is certainly a food that can contribute to excess calories (any food can, especially calorie-dense foods). But is dairy going to make you gain weight even in the context of meeting your calorie goal? I have never seen any evidence to suggest that is the case.
  • cwolfman13
    cwolfman13 Posts: 41,874 Member
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    nevadavis1 wrote: »
    janejellyroll wrote: »
    Humans have consumed dairy for thousands of years and generally managed to maintain healthy body weights until very recently. I don't think dairy is the reason people are struggling with their weight.

    Although for most of history it was a luxury item that most peoples consumed in very small quantities, and/or was mainly consumed by the wealthy. It was also a geographic issue. Europeans consumed dairy, but many populations on other continents did not and as a result lactose intolerance is far more common in those populations.

    And since average life expectancy has been increasing over time (until a little dip recently) more people are getting the "old age" illnesses like heart disease and cancer.

    Another concern I would have is that most of the dairy people can buy in the store is not like it "used to be" in ancient times. For one thing cows have been bred to be practically disabled by the size of their udders and the volume of their milk production--this means those cows produce more hormones. In addition many times hormones and drugs (antibiotics) are fed to the animals. Further, cows used to graze on grass, but many are fed more calorie-dense grain now to make them produce even more milk.

    <<<consumes dairy...eat meat (lots of fish, but also poultry and lean cuts of beef)...lost 40 Lbs pretty easily...took very high LDL number (160s) to optimal range (92)...reduced pre-diabetic blood glucose, etc...there are many ways to eat that will improve your health.
  • StealthHealth
    StealthHealth Posts: 2,417 Member
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    ikaraboutu2 wrote: »
    I just recently became what I like to refer to as a vegan plus. It's actually not as difficult as people make it seem to get my nutrition from plants versus animals, and overall I feel a lot more energetic and healthy. In a week and a half I've already lost 10 pounds!
    If you have Netflix, I highly suggest the documentary Forks Over Knives. Also, look up the Engine 2 Seven Day Rescue Plan! It all makes total sense!

    So, you're 10 days into this thing? :|
  • janejellyroll
    janejellyroll Posts: 25,763 Member
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    StealthHealth wrote: »
    ikaraboutu2 wrote: »
    I just recently became what I like to refer to as a vegan plus. It's actually not as difficult as people make it seem to get my nutrition from plants versus animals, and overall I feel a lot more energetic and healthy. In a week and a half I've already lost 10 pounds!
    If you have Netflix, I highly suggest the documentary Forks Over Knives. Also, look up the Engine 2 Seven Day Rescue Plan! It all makes total sense!

    So, you're 10 days into this thing? :|

    Oh, that's nice. I missed that initially.
  • nevadavis1
    nevadavis1 Posts: 331 Member
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    Yes, you're both right -- there's not one single way to gain or lose weight or improve the results of blood tests, etc.

    I was just trying to make a point that "we've always done it so it must be fine" isn't always accurate. Most of my family used to cook with lard (and had for generations) and they were so physically active all day long that they didn't usually have weight issues, but that doesn't mean cooking with lard is an awesome idea. Though I suppose if you counted your calories you could still decrease and include lard.... but I imagine it's bad for you in other ways.
  • cwolfman13
    cwolfman13 Posts: 41,874 Member
    edited March 2017
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    nevadavis1 wrote: »
    Yes, you're both right -- there's not one single way to gain or lose weight or improve the results of blood tests, etc.

    I was just trying to make a point that "we've always done it so it must be fine" isn't always accurate. Most of my family used to cook with lard (and had for generations) and they were so physically active all day long that they didn't usually have weight issues, but that doesn't mean cooking with lard is an awesome idea. Though I suppose if you counted your calories you could still decrease and include lard.... but I imagine it's bad for you in other ways.

    Not that I'm a fan of keto, but those folks would vehemently disagree...they eat very high fat diets and lose weight and see improved health markers...

    The problem with pronouncing X, Y, or Z as inherently bad for you or that this diet or that diet is optimal for health is that generally there is little in the way of actual scientific evidence and data is usually cherry picked to come in line with a particular view point or agenda rather than objectively looking at all of the facts. Correlation studies are notorious for this...
  • janejellyroll
    janejellyroll Posts: 25,763 Member
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    nevadavis1 wrote: »
    Yes, you're both right -- there's not one single way to gain or lose weight or improve the results of blood tests, etc.

    I was just trying to make a point that "we've always done it so it must be fine" isn't always accurate. Most of my family used to cook with lard (and had for generations) and they were so physically active all day long that they didn't usually have weight issues, but that doesn't mean cooking with lard is an awesome idea. Though I suppose if you counted your calories you could still decrease and include lard.... but I imagine it's bad for you in other ways.

    I'm not sure if this is directed at me, but I never argued "We always did it, so it must be fine."

    I was responding to a specific claim (dairy will cause weight gain) with a fact: members of our species have been consuming dairy for thousands of years and our struggles with obesity only happened towards the very end of that period.

    And I'm not convinced that cooking with lard will -- in the context of a balanced diet that doesn't include excess calories -- will be harmful for someone, although you're free to imagine that it could be. It might be harmful, it might not. I haven't seen evidence to convince me that it is harmful for the average person.

  • lemurcat12
    lemurcat12 Posts: 30,886 Member
    edited March 2017
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    ikaraboutu2 wrote: »
    janejellyroll wrote: »

    Humans have consumed dairy for thousands of years and generally managed to maintain healthy body weights until very recently. I don't think dairy is the reason people are struggling with their weight.

    OK, the way I see it is that you all can argue with me and spam this girl's post…

    Uh, you started the argument by making claims that better belong in a Debate thread (and I think there are Debate threads on it). If claims that are inaccurate are made, they need to be responded to.

    And your assumption that we haven't done research is baseless and risible. As I said, this topic has been discussed many times. I've seen FoK, and know enough to know it was not a fair portrayal and that that kind of source is hardly "research."

    My cholesterol levels and blood pressure has never been a problem, and I lost weight easily without becoming a vegan. I am supportive of vegan diets (and understand the ethical impulses even if I do not (yet?) fully share them), but your claims that one must be vegan to be healthy are not accurate.

    Edit: oh, the 10 day thing is informative. I also missed that.
  • lemurcat12
    lemurcat12 Posts: 30,886 Member
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    nevadavis1 wrote: »
    janejellyroll wrote: »
    Humans have consumed dairy for thousands of years and generally managed to maintain healthy body weights until very recently. I don't think dairy is the reason people are struggling with their weight.

    Although for most of history it was a luxury item that most peoples consumed in very small quantities, and/or was mainly consumed by the wealthy. It was also a geographic issue. Europeans consumed dairy, but many populations on other continents did not and as a result lactose intolerance is far more common in those populations.

    The latter is true. The former is not. Dairy was a very important part of the regular diet for many peoples across history, including those on basically subsistence diets -- not unsurprising it was common in colder areas like northern and western Europe (the pre potato diet of the Irish was very much based on dairy and also fish, for example).
  • FrugalMomsRock75
    FrugalMomsRock75 Posts: 698 Member
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    I recommend reading Forks over Knives and making your transition the way they suggest in the book.

    also--chocolate covered Katie. She's amazing. She goes over what she eats in a typical day, and she has awesome recipes. www.chocolatecoveredkatie.com
  • psuLemon
    psuLemon Posts: 38,394 MFP Moderator
    edited March 2017
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    christiantripodi wrote: »
    I find it interesting that a lot of people believe there's no nutritional benefit. I've done a lot of research and have seen a lot of evidence suggesting that animal based food is actually more harmful for your body than beneficial.

    Of course there are nutrients that you'll become deficient from being a vegan, but I don't think it's as difficult to find them in your diet as people make it seem.

    I barely eat meat already, I eat chicken occasionally. I do eat eggs quite often but that's about it for dairy.

    I recently heard the correlation between vegan and being healthy, is due to the fact that those people tend to be more engaged in their health and tend to exercise more. It suggest, it's not necessarily the diet, but the corresponding activity engagement and overall tendency on eating healthier foods.

    But then again, I also know a lot of junk food vegans... because Oreo's are vegan.


    Also, do you want to go vegan or plant based? There is a difference. But I'd agree with others and slowly transition into to ensure you are meeting your nutritional requirements.

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