Vegan???
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nevadavis1 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Humans have consumed dairy for thousands of years and generally managed to maintain healthy body weights until very recently. I don't think dairy is the reason people are struggling with their weight.
Although for most of history it was a luxury item that most peoples consumed in very small quantities, and/or was mainly consumed by the wealthy. It was also a geographic issue. Europeans consumed dairy, but many populations on other continents did not and as a result lactose intolerance is far more common in those populations.
And since average life expectancy has been increasing over time (until a little dip recently) more people are getting the "old age" illnesses like heart disease and cancer.
Another concern I would have is that most of the dairy people can buy in the store is not like it "used to be" in ancient times. For one thing cows have been bred to be practically disabled by the size of their udders and the volume of their milk production--this means those cows produce more hormones. In addition many times hormones and drugs (antibiotics) are fed to the animals. Further, cows used to graze on grass, but many are fed more calorie-dense grain now to make them produce even more milk.
<<<consumes dairy...eat meat (lots of fish, but also poultry and lean cuts of beef)...lost 40 Lbs pretty easily...took very high LDL number (160s) to optimal range (92)...reduced pre-diabetic blood glucose, etc...there are many ways to eat that will improve your health.1 -
ikaraboutu2 wrote: »I just recently became what I like to refer to as a vegan plus. It's actually not as difficult as people make it seem to get my nutrition from plants versus animals, and overall I feel a lot more energetic and healthy. In a week and a half I've already lost 10 pounds!
If you have Netflix, I highly suggest the documentary Forks Over Knives. Also, look up the Engine 2 Seven Day Rescue Plan! It all makes total sense!
So, you're 10 days into this thing?
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StealthHealth wrote: »ikaraboutu2 wrote: »I just recently became what I like to refer to as a vegan plus. It's actually not as difficult as people make it seem to get my nutrition from plants versus animals, and overall I feel a lot more energetic and healthy. In a week and a half I've already lost 10 pounds!
If you have Netflix, I highly suggest the documentary Forks Over Knives. Also, look up the Engine 2 Seven Day Rescue Plan! It all makes total sense!
So, you're 10 days into this thing?
Oh, that's nice. I missed that initially.0 -
Yes, you're both right -- there's not one single way to gain or lose weight or improve the results of blood tests, etc.
I was just trying to make a point that "we've always done it so it must be fine" isn't always accurate. Most of my family used to cook with lard (and had for generations) and they were so physically active all day long that they didn't usually have weight issues, but that doesn't mean cooking with lard is an awesome idea. Though I suppose if you counted your calories you could still decrease and include lard.... but I imagine it's bad for you in other ways.0 -
nevadavis1 wrote: »Yes, you're both right -- there's not one single way to gain or lose weight or improve the results of blood tests, etc.
I was just trying to make a point that "we've always done it so it must be fine" isn't always accurate. Most of my family used to cook with lard (and had for generations) and they were so physically active all day long that they didn't usually have weight issues, but that doesn't mean cooking with lard is an awesome idea. Though I suppose if you counted your calories you could still decrease and include lard.... but I imagine it's bad for you in other ways.
Not that I'm a fan of keto, but those folks would vehemently disagree...they eat very high fat diets and lose weight and see improved health markers...
The problem with pronouncing X, Y, or Z as inherently bad for you or that this diet or that diet is optimal for health is that generally there is little in the way of actual scientific evidence and data is usually cherry picked to come in line with a particular view point or agenda rather than objectively looking at all of the facts. Correlation studies are notorious for this...0 -
nevadavis1 wrote: »Yes, you're both right -- there's not one single way to gain or lose weight or improve the results of blood tests, etc.
I was just trying to make a point that "we've always done it so it must be fine" isn't always accurate. Most of my family used to cook with lard (and had for generations) and they were so physically active all day long that they didn't usually have weight issues, but that doesn't mean cooking with lard is an awesome idea. Though I suppose if you counted your calories you could still decrease and include lard.... but I imagine it's bad for you in other ways.
I'm not sure if this is directed at me, but I never argued "We always did it, so it must be fine."
I was responding to a specific claim (dairy will cause weight gain) with a fact: members of our species have been consuming dairy for thousands of years and our struggles with obesity only happened towards the very end of that period.
And I'm not convinced that cooking with lard will -- in the context of a balanced diet that doesn't include excess calories -- will be harmful for someone, although you're free to imagine that it could be. It might be harmful, it might not. I haven't seen evidence to convince me that it is harmful for the average person.
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ikaraboutu2 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »
Humans have consumed dairy for thousands of years and generally managed to maintain healthy body weights until very recently. I don't think dairy is the reason people are struggling with their weight.
OK, the way I see it is that you all can argue with me and spam this girl's post…
Uh, you started the argument by making claims that better belong in a Debate thread (and I think there are Debate threads on it). If claims that are inaccurate are made, they need to be responded to.
And your assumption that we haven't done research is baseless and risible. As I said, this topic has been discussed many times. I've seen FoK, and know enough to know it was not a fair portrayal and that that kind of source is hardly "research."
My cholesterol levels and blood pressure has never been a problem, and I lost weight easily without becoming a vegan. I am supportive of vegan diets (and understand the ethical impulses even if I do not (yet?) fully share them), but your claims that one must be vegan to be healthy are not accurate.
Edit: oh, the 10 day thing is informative. I also missed that.2 -
nevadavis1 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Humans have consumed dairy for thousands of years and generally managed to maintain healthy body weights until very recently. I don't think dairy is the reason people are struggling with their weight.
Although for most of history it was a luxury item that most peoples consumed in very small quantities, and/or was mainly consumed by the wealthy. It was also a geographic issue. Europeans consumed dairy, but many populations on other continents did not and as a result lactose intolerance is far more common in those populations.
The latter is true. The former is not. Dairy was a very important part of the regular diet for many peoples across history, including those on basically subsistence diets -- not unsurprising it was common in colder areas like northern and western Europe (the pre potato diet of the Irish was very much based on dairy and also fish, for example).1 -
I recommend reading Forks over Knives and making your transition the way they suggest in the book.
also--chocolate covered Katie. She's amazing. She goes over what she eats in a typical day, and she has awesome recipes. www.chocolatecoveredkatie.com0 -
christiantripodi wrote: »I find it interesting that a lot of people believe there's no nutritional benefit. I've done a lot of research and have seen a lot of evidence suggesting that animal based food is actually more harmful for your body than beneficial.
Of course there are nutrients that you'll become deficient from being a vegan, but I don't think it's as difficult to find them in your diet as people make it seem.
I barely eat meat already, I eat chicken occasionally. I do eat eggs quite often but that's about it for dairy.
I recently heard the correlation between vegan and being healthy, is due to the fact that those people tend to be more engaged in their health and tend to exercise more. It suggest, it's not necessarily the diet, but the corresponding activity engagement and overall tendency on eating healthier foods.
But then again, I also know a lot of junk food vegans... because Oreo's are vegan.
Also, do you want to go vegan or plant based? There is a difference. But I'd agree with others and slowly transition into to ensure you are meeting your nutritional requirements.0 -
ikaraboutu2 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »
Humans have consumed dairy for thousands of years and generally managed to maintain healthy body weights until very recently. I don't think dairy is the reason people are struggling with their weight.
OK, the way I see it is that you all can argue with me and spam this girl's post… Or you can do your research like I keep saying. And don't stop just because you hear something criticized. If someone criticized your weight-loss would you stop?
Not to mention, it's not just about the weight loss with dairy but it's also about the cancer-causing agent casein in it. Again, seriously! Watch Forks Over Knives! You may look good on the outside, but what's going on on the inside with your health? For myself all I know is that my cholesterol levels, my blood pressure, and my weight have all reached normal or begin to decrease since becoming a vegan.
Catch you all later! Do your research!
My dad also successfully lowered his cholesterol and blood pressure being vegan, so I do agree it can happen.
Forks over Knives however is an extremely biased documentary, like all of them on Netflix. There is propaganda on both sides. Eat good whole food, and if you want to eat dairy and meat, great, if you don't, great.0 -
I have a question. Why do people think eggs are dairy?0
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Christine_72 wrote: »I have a question. Why do people think eggs are dairy?
I have no answer for you. I've always wondered the same thing.0 -
Christine_72 wrote: »I have a question. Why do people think eggs are dairy?
maybe because here they are sold in the dairy aisle? and some of them come from dairy farms? I dont know otherwise lol0 -
CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »Christine_72 wrote: »I have a question. Why do people think eggs are dairy?
maybe because here they are sold in the dairy aisle? and some of them come from dairy farms? I dont know otherwise lol
I bet that's it...0 -
My hopes for this post was to really learn how becoming a vegan impacted people's health. I have always been the type to do a lot of research about whatever I put into my body, but I come across a lot of studies and articles that suggest different things when it comes to eating animal based foods so I try to keep an open mind. So, I decided to come on here to learn about individual experiences with becoming vegan.
I understand the deficiencies when it comes to being a vegan (like I said, I try to do my research) but I have yet to find a potential deficiency that can't be incorporated into my diet with plant based foods.
I appreciate all the posts - very interesting to hear different opinions!0 -
StealthHealth wrote: »christiantripodi wrote: »I find it interesting that a lot of people believe there's no nutritional benefit. I've done a lot of research and have seen a lot of evidence suggesting that animal based food is actually more harmful for your body than beneficial.
Of course there are nutrients that you'll become deficient from being a vegan, but I don't think it's as difficult to find them in your diet as people make it seem.
I barely eat meat already, I eat chicken occasionally. I do eat eggs quite often but that's about it for dairy.
re: Statement in bold - That is highly unlikely.
Omnivourous diets can be bad for you and vegetarian or vegan diets be better for you, but the opposite can also be true. To say that en mass animal based food is bad is a bold claim and most likely reflects poor data sources rather than "evidence".
What I'm really trying to say is that in all of my research I have yet to see any evidence SUGGESTING that animal based products are BENEFICIAL. I've seen research that suggests animal based products aren't necessarily harmful, but not much research suggesting that it's actually essential to incorporate into your diet. But on the flip side, there's definitely a lot of research that supports animal based being harmful for our health... especially dairy, of course.0 -
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christiantripodi wrote: »My hopes for this post was to really learn how becoming a vegan impacted people's health. I have always been the type to do a lot of research about whatever I put into my body, but I come across a lot of studies and articles that suggest different things when it comes to eating animal based foods so I try to keep an open mind. So, I decided to come on here to learn about individual experiences with becoming vegan.
I understand the deficiencies when it comes to being a vegan (like I said, I try to do my research) but I have yet to find a potential deficiency that can't be incorporated into my diet with plant based foods.
I appreciate all the posts - very interesting to hear different opinions!
B-12...you have to supplement that...you aren't going to get that through plant based food. Also, DHA and EPA Omega 3 fatty acids...they aren't available in a plant based diet...you will only get ALA and you can't supplement DHA and EPA because that would come from fish oil which would be obviously off limits.
There's nothing wrong with being vegan...most vegans I know are vegan for ethical purposes and also forgo wearing leather, wool, or any other animal product...it's not just diet. The issue that many have that tends to come with veganism is the overly preachy attitude and idea that it is the healthiest way to eat...there are many ways of eating that are very healthy.
The China Study was mentioned here...if you look at the raw data and analysis of the raw data performed by other scientists, the data doesn't support to conclusions in the book...For example, Campbell fails to mention the county of Tuoli in China. The folks in Tuoli ate 45% of their diet as fat, 134 grams of animal protein each day (twice as much as the average American), and rarely ate vegetables or other plant foods. Yet, according to the China Study data, they were extremely healthy with low rates of cancer and heart disease; healthier, in fact, than many of the counties that were nearly vegan.
https://chriskresser.com/rest-in-peace-china-study/
Again, nothing wrong with being vegan for ethical reasons...and while I am omnivorous, a significant part of my diet is plant based...I've corrected all of my previously bad blood work and easily dropped 40 Lbs...I'm pretty stinkin' healthy and fit.0 -
christiantripodi wrote: »StealthHealth wrote: »christiantripodi wrote: »I find it interesting that a lot of people believe there's no nutritional benefit. I've done a lot of research and have seen a lot of evidence suggesting that animal based food is actually more harmful for your body than beneficial.
Of course there are nutrients that you'll become deficient from being a vegan, but I don't think it's as difficult to find them in your diet as people make it seem.
I barely eat meat already, I eat chicken occasionally. I do eat eggs quite often but that's about it for dairy.
re: Statement in bold - That is highly unlikely.
Omnivourous diets can be bad for you and vegetarian or vegan diets be better for you, but the opposite can also be true. To say that en mass animal based food is bad is a bold claim and most likely reflects poor data sources rather than "evidence".
What I'm really trying to say is that in all of my research I have yet to see any evidence SUGGESTING that animal based products are BENEFICIAL. I've seen research that suggests animal based products aren't necessarily harmful, but not much research suggesting that it's actually essential to incorporate into your diet. But on the flip side, there's definitely a lot of research that supports animal based being harmful for our health... especially dairy, of course.
I suspect that is because you are looking in circles that support only veganism or plant based. If you researched LCHF, you'd find a plethora of data supporting diets high in fats, especially PUFA and MUFAs to support improvements across all metabolic markers. Additionally, there is loads of research on fish. Its also why if you look at some of the healthiest and longest living countries, their diet is largely rice and fish. Or in terms of the Mediterranean diet, its fish, oils and a variety of vegetables.
The biggest problem with most red meat studies is they dont eliminate factors such as obesity. And most recently there was a study on SFA and how it did not impact metabolic markers ecen when a diet was higher in red meat and dairy.
In all reality, the bigger drivers are obesity, inactivity and genetics. You can eat vegan and still be severely unhealthy. You can eat meat and dairy and be extremely healthy. One's diet does not automatically improve things, with the exception of some metabolic/autoimmune disorders.2 -
I'm not vegan or even vegetarian but am interested in nutrition, in general. I'm surprised at the people saying vegans are unhealthy or don't get enough protein because Ive seen so much information on healthy sustainable plant based diets. Watch documentaries like Food Choices, Forks Over Knives, Fat Sick and Nearly Dead, etc to see plant based diets are healthy as long as you don't think French fries are the only thing you can eat.2
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I'm not vegan or even vegetarian but am interested in nutrition, in general. I'm surprised at the people saying vegans are unhealthy or don't get enough protein because Ive seen so much information on healthy sustainable plant based diets. Watch documentaries like Food Choices, Forks Over Knives, Fat Sick and Nearly Dead, etc to see plant based diets are healthy as long as you don't think French fries are the only thing you can eat.
Where did people say that vegans are unhealthy? One's diet is what they make of it...a vegan diet can be as healthy or unhealthy as any other diet.0 -
Sorry, maybe the word unhealthy was wrong, but some said it was hard to get all your nutrients as a vegan and dont go vegan for nutrition, do it for the animals.
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Sorry, maybe the word unhealthy was wrong, but some said it was hard to get all your nutrients as a vegan and dont go vegan for nutrition, do it for the animals.
I think the point is that vegans tend to have to be a bit more vigilant in order to get the nutrition that they need, whereas a varied omnivorous diet does tend to provide a broader range of nutrients without really thinking about it than a vegan diet.1 -
Sorry, maybe the word unhealthy was wrong, but some said it was hard to get all your nutrients as a vegan and dont go vegan for nutrition, do it for the animals.
I think most people are referring to certain deficiencies like B-12 if you don't supplement. You are only going to get B-12 will animal products...if you're vegan, you have to supplement. I also mentioned EPA and DHA Omega 3...not available on a plant based diet.
Beyond that I would also suggest that it's harder in the sense that you have to have a greater knowledge of nutrition to get adequate protein and other nutrients. One of my best gym buddies was vegan for awhile (a little over a year) and suffered from severe anemia and also wasn't getting enough protein to support his health as he simply didn't have the requisite nutritional knowledge to make the right choices, nor was it of particular interest to him to learn how...so harder in terms of needing to kind of know what you're doing, not that you can't get the nutrition. It's easier to get proper nutrition with a wide and varied diet...because you're simply eating a wider range of foods...matters of nutrition are always complicated to some extent by elimination regardless of what that diet is.
If you look at the current raw vegan trend, there are a lot of deficiencies that are warned about...again, not that you can't get the nutrition, it's just more difficult and you have to have a broader knowledge base of proper nutrition...and many people simply don't.
I think the comment for not doing it for nutrition was more in regards to the fact that you can eat a very healthy diet and not be vegetarian...I eat meat (mostly fish) but my diet is also substantially plant oriented...the fact that I eat meat doesn't make me inherently unhealthier than a vegan. The primary reason people go vegan is for ethical reasons that generally go beyond diet..they don't wear leather or wool or anything else that comes from an animal, etc...1 -
I've been a vegan for 4 years this month. I became so after reading Eat to Live. I had gotten to a point that I rarely ate meat, but did eat a lot of cheese and eggs. The reason I chose to follow the 6 week plan laid out in Dr. Furman's book was because of several health problems in my family-mother died of a heart attack from chemo she was taking for ovarian cancer at 55, father died of a heart attack at 65. Maternal grandmother suffered from heart issues, maternal grandfather dropped dead of a heart attack at either 42 or 44 years old. I seriously wanted to do all that I could on my part in an effort to have better health and hopefully live to see my children marry and have children of their own. So...I have followed a plant based diet for that amount of time allowing myself the occasional non-vegan items when I chose to do so. This has helped me not to feel "guilty" about things. I make choices and often find that most stuff is just not worth "cheating" (for lack of a better word) for. I eat a beautiful array of healthy, delicious foods every day, lots of it. I initially lost about 20 pounds on that eating plan even though I wasn't really trying to lose weight. Over the years, I have maintained that loss within about a 5-10 pound range. I take a multi-vitamin daily and a super B complex to get my source of B-12. I am not sure what my starting cholesterol level was but as of my most recent yearly check-up just last week, my TOTAL cholesterol was 122, which certainly puts me at very low risk of heart or stroke related issues. I also eliminated caffeine for some issues I was personally having. That helps with alkalinity in the body which can cause cancers. I'm not guaranteed to live longer, however, I know I'm doing all I can by eating a plant based diet and avoiding processed foods, GMO foods, etc. It is the processed food and addition of GMO's to our SAD that has made America overweight. The foods and milk people eat and drink now is very different from those our parents and grandparents were raised on, and even a few of us, as GMO's weren't introduced until the mid-90's. Ultimately, you have to decide what works best for you and also what your body tells you. I don't think a vegan diet works for everyone. I suggest you do a 6 week cleanse to try it and then ease yourself back into good meats and organic dairy if you should decide it's not right for you. Good luck and feel free to message me if you have any questions about it!0
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TappinTamara wrote: »That helps with alkalinity in the body
nothing helps with alkalinity in the body,your body manages a proper pH level,you cant change that.if your body gets out of whack with your pH,then you will either end up in the hospital or worse. cleanses are also a load of bullhockey.your organs cleanse your body just fine,if not the same thing would happen as with the pH levels.0 -
ikaraboutu2 wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »You might try looking at the criticism the China Study received from the scientific community...the data doesn't actually back up the conclusions...Campbell cherry picked to arrive at conclusions that he was already biased towards so he could write a book.
Like I said, everything needs research! Forks Over Knives ties together the China study very well, and I would highly suggest watching that video. It's not fear mongering and honestly the research that I've done has led me to believe what they say! Especially in regards to dairy – The only animals that should be eating dairy are cows, as it is only just bovine growth hormone. Unless you want to be a 400 pound calf
Forks over knives is a fear mongering "documentary" (I hesitate to call it that) that cherry picks questionable research to make its point.1 -
ikaraboutu2 wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »You might try looking at the criticism the China Study received from the scientific community...the data doesn't actually back up the conclusions...Campbell cherry picked to arrive at conclusions that he was already biased towards so he could write a book.
Like I said, everything needs research! Forks Over Knives ties together the China study very well, and I would highly suggest watching that video. It's not fear mongering and honestly the research that I've done has led me to believe what they say! Especially in regards to dairy – The only animals that should be eating dairy are cows, as it is only just bovine growth hormone. Unless you want to be a 400 pound calf
Forks over knives is a fear mongering "documentary" (I hesitate to call it that) that cherry picks questionable research to make its point.
And the China study has been thoroughly discredited, I believe.0 -
Sorry, maybe the word unhealthy was wrong, but some said it was hard to get all your nutrients as a vegan and dont go vegan for nutrition, do it for the animals.
People say to go vegan for the animals because there is no evidence that people will be healthier if they eliminate animal products from their diet.
There is a lot of evidence that doing things like eating more vegetables, getting enough fiber, etc will improve health for many people. But these things can be done by non-vegans. The likely reason why some people feel better when they eliminate animal products from their diet is because they happen to be implementing changes that would be beneficial for anyone.1
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