Can't do squats without back pain?
dudebro200
Posts: 97 Member
I have been on a 1800 cal diet for the last 3 months @5'9 and a starting weight of 197 (age 35). I don't know if my form is getting sloppy due to a lower energy intake.
I did squats two weeks ago and lower back pain persisted for 4 days. I did squats on Monday and now I have lower back pain.
I did power lifting squats when I was younger, and switched to *kitten*-to-grass squats two years ago. Not sure if I got the hang of it yet.
I start out with 135lbs for 20 reps. Then I do either 225 or 180 for the next 3 sets. Usually towards the end of a set, my butt will lift-up and then my quads will engage. I can't really explain it, but I think that is what is killing my back.
I feel i should just stay at 135, but my ego gets butt hurt I guess.
Can I get the same benefit from a machine squat?
I did squats two weeks ago and lower back pain persisted for 4 days. I did squats on Monday and now I have lower back pain.
I did power lifting squats when I was younger, and switched to *kitten*-to-grass squats two years ago. Not sure if I got the hang of it yet.
I start out with 135lbs for 20 reps. Then I do either 225 or 180 for the next 3 sets. Usually towards the end of a set, my butt will lift-up and then my quads will engage. I can't really explain it, but I think that is what is killing my back.
I feel i should just stay at 135, but my ego gets butt hurt I guess.
Can I get the same benefit from a machine squat?
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Replies
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Squatting to just past parallel is fine. ATG is a waste of energy.
135 for 20? Why so many reps? You're probably getting gassed.
And no, no machine will work like a squat.3 -
A machine squat won't do the same as a free weight squat.
May I ask if you've tried stopping your set as soon as you feel your form break? How's your back then?
Reason I ask is if that stops it, then you know what the problem is. You're going too heavy for too many reps. Either reduce reps or weight so you can keep form. Problem solved.
But, if that form break isn't the problem you need to look for another solution. Might want to post a form video for critique or just shift to an analogous exercise like you mention. Personally, I'd try different free weight exercises rather than machine squats, but that would suit my goals better. Not necessarily yours.
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dudebro200 wrote: »Usually towards the end of a set, my butt will lift-up and then my quads will engage. I can't really explain it, but I think that is what is killing my back.
That's likely. If you have a partner, have them press down on your lower back as you rise up, so your butt doesn't rise faster than your head. With practice you should be able to train yourself to keep good form at any weight or rep. Are you looking in a mirror? Don't do this. Think inwards at your body position.
If you need more help, consider hiring a good trainer. Or at least upload form check videos for the trainers here to review.
To answer your Q, machines do work the leg muscles well, but they don't hit the core and they don't train functional strength (lifting ability).
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If the 135 for 20 is your warm up set you are over doing it. Do you follow a program or just make up your own?2
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I'd cut out the 20 reps @135.
There is no point to it from a lifting stand point unless you just want to be efficient at lifting light weights and not progress.
Some study came out recently that suggest all that matters is lifting to Failure. 135 @20 brings me close to failure, and feels safer.
I also heard that 20 reps is the best way to warm up.0 -
dudebro200 wrote: »I have been on a 1800 cal diet for the last 3 months @5'9 and a starting weight of 197 (age 35). I don't know if my form is getting sloppy due to a lower energy intake.
I did squats two weeks ago and lower back pain persisted for 4 days. I did squats on Monday and now I have lower back pain.
I did power lifting squats when I was younger, and switched to *kitten*-to-grass squats two years ago. Not sure if I got the hang of it yet.
I start out with 135lbs for 20 reps. Then I do either 225 or 180 for the next 3 sets. Usually towards the end of a set, my butt will lift-up and then my quads will engage. I can't really explain it, but I think that is what is killing my back.
I feel i should just stay at 135, but my ego gets butt hurt I guess.
Can I get the same benefit from a machine squat?
i think you would get the best benefit from looking into a squat program , and using the right weight with the right sets and reps to achieve whatever your goal is, and don't worry about the # on the bar.
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Cherimoose wrote: »dudebro200 wrote: »Usually towards the end of a set, my butt will lift-up and then my quads will engage. I can't really explain it, but I think that is what is killing my back.
That's likely. If you have a partner, have them press down on your lower back as you rise up, so your butt doesn't rise faster than your head. With practice you should be able to train yourself to keep good form at any weight or rep. Are you looking in a mirror? Don't do this. Think inwards at your body position.
If you need more help, consider hiring a good trainer. Or at least upload form check videos for the trainers here to review.
To answer your Q, machines do work the leg muscles well, but they don't hit the core and they don't train functional strength (lifting ability).
what? that's a really dangerous idea to be pushing on someone when they have a ton of weight on their back.1 -
dudebro, what are you doing?
I get lower back pain on my five reps when my form gets sloppy; specifically, if I lose tightness and my lumbar doesn't stay locked in extension. Doing 20-rep sets is a good way to lose that tightness without any benefit of strength gains.0 -
dudebro200 wrote: »I'd cut out the 20 reps @135.
There is no point to it from a lifting stand point unless you just want to be efficient at lifting light weights and not progress.
Some study came out recently that suggest all that matters is lifting to Failure. 135 @20 brings me close to failure, and feels safer.
I also heard that 20 reps is the best way to warm up.
Warming up to failure...that's a new concept8 -
dudebro200 wrote: »I'd cut out the 20 reps @135.
There is no point to it from a lifting stand point unless you just want to be efficient at lifting light weights and not progress.
Some study came out recently that suggest all that matters is lifting to Failure. 135 @20 brings me close to failure, and feels safer.
I also heard that 20 reps is the best way to warm up.
its clearly not safer if you are hurting your back.
And lifting to failure isn't all that matters, there are a zillion studies out there all saying something different. But if that recent study is the one you want to explore, that's great, however you can reach failure in 1 rep or 20 reps. So the # of reps has nothing to do with reaching failure.1 -
Do you have a significant butt wink?1
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dudebro200 wrote: »Usually towards the end of a set, my butt will lift-up and then my quads will engage. I can't really explain it, but I think that is what is killing my back.
Basically, you're letting your hips come out from underneath in order to use the momentum to finish the hard part of the lift. This in turn is causing you lower back to do most of the lifting instead of your glutes and hamstrings.
One trick I was taught to fix this is the pinch a penny method. Basically, when you start you ascent, imagine you have a penny barely tucked between you butt cheeks that you need to squeeze tight to keep it there through the ascent. This will help remind you to engage your glutes muscles, which in turn engage the hip flexors, to prevent the hips from popping out.
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dudebro200 wrote: »I'd cut out the 20 reps @135.
There is no point to it from a lifting stand point unless you just want to be efficient at lifting light weights and not progress.
Some study came out recently that suggest all that matters is lifting to Failure. 135 @20 brings me close to failure, and feels safer.
I also heard that 20 reps is the best way to warm up.
No offense but there is plenty of hard data over the past 2-3 decades that prove otherwise.
I'm not trying to down you bud, it just sounds more like something random a goof youtuber would say. I've never heard of a warm up set that requires failure.
If you are having pain, it's probably from poor form along with too heavy of a weight. A common problem it could be is your abs/back might not be ready for that weight.
My suggestion might be to work a adequate warm up and do 3x5 at a weight that doesnt break form and add 5lbs each time for a while. Progress slowly and forget about the failure idea. That only premotes bad form for a novice lifter.
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I'm with everyone else. Nix the 135lbsx20. Especially as a warmup set, 20 reps is too much. Do pause squats, pin squats, whatever assistance you can to help prevent form breakdown. Also, don't neglect some dynamic stretches before you squat and to stretch out any areas of your body where you experience tightness. Lastly, be deliberate with each and every rep you take, and don't rush to get your sets done. The more you rush your set, the more likely you will notice form breakdown. This video helped me big time; I like how he explains imagining that you have someone pushing you down, and you are trying to resist this pressure.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LB8KekoCeNg 1 -
I will echo what others have said regarding the 20-rep "warmup" set. That's far too much volume to be considered a warmup.
One other thing is, when you're in a deficit, you have to pick one - volume or intensity. When in a calorie deficit you can't possibly hope to achieve a high volume of reps with good intensity throughout due to the lack of available muscle glycogen. You have to do less volume with high intensity if you intend to get stronger.
Also, the various supporting muscles involved in squatting need more time to adjust to the lift after significant time off. Take it slow and you'll be rewarded.
There are a few quality youtube tutorials, but you have to already know what to look for. This guy knows his stuff:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bs_Ej32IYgo 0 -
dudebro200 wrote: »I'd cut out the 20 reps @135.
There is no point to it from a lifting stand point unless you just want to be efficient at lifting light weights and not progress.
Some study came out recently that suggest all that matters is lifting to Failure. 135 @20 brings me close to failure, and feels safer.
I also heard that 20 reps is the best way to warm up.
its clearly not safer if you are hurting your back.
And lifting to failure isn't all that matters, there are a zillion studies out there all saying something different. But if that recent study is the one you want to explore, that's great, however you can reach failure in 1 rep or 20 reps. So the # of reps has nothing to do with reaching failure.dudebro200 wrote: »I'd cut out the 20 reps @135.
There is no point to it from a lifting stand point unless you just want to be efficient at lifting light weights and not progress.
Some study came out recently that suggest all that matters is lifting to Failure. 135 @20 brings me close to failure, and feels safer.
I also heard that 20 reps is the best way to warm up.
No offense but there is plenty of hard data over the past 2-3 decades that prove otherwise.
I'm not trying to down you bud, it just sounds more like something random a goof youtuber would say. I've never heard of a warm up set that requires failure.
If you are having pain, it's probably from poor form along with too heavy of a weight. A common problem it could be is your abs/back might not be ready for that weight.
My suggestion might be to work a adequate warm up and do 3x5 at a weight that doesnt break form and add 5lbs each time for a while. Progress slowly and forget about the failure idea. That only premotes bad form for a novice lifter.
Well,dudebro200 wrote: »I'd cut out the 20 reps @135.
There is no point to it from a lifting stand point unless you just want to be efficient at lifting light weights and not progress.
Some study came out recently that suggest all that matters is lifting to Failure. 135 @20 brings me close to failure, and feels safer.
I also heard that 20 reps is the best way to warm up.
No offense but there is plenty of hard data over the past 2-3 decades that prove otherwise.
I'm not trying to down you bud, it just sounds more like something random a goof youtuber would say. I've never heard of a warm up set that requires failure.
If you are having pain, it's probably from poor form along with too heavy of a weight. A common problem it could be is your abs/back might not be ready for that weight.
My suggestion might be to work a adequate warm up and do 3x5 at a weight that doesnt break form and add 5lbs each time for a while. Progress slowly and forget about the failure idea. That only premotes bad form for a novice lifter.
During the 20 rep set, I get more winded than anything else. My muscles burn, but it's not like they fail out. It's more like my cardio-system fails because of low stamina.
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I will echo what others have said regarding the 20-rep "warmup" set. That's far too much volume to be considered a warmup.
One other thing is, when you're in a deficit, you have to pick one - volume or intensity. When in a calorie deficit you can't possibly hope to achieve a high volume of reps with good intensity throughout due to the lack of available muscle glycogen. You have to do less volume with high intensity if you intend to get stronger.
Also, the various supporting muscles involved in squatting need more time to adjust to the lift after significant time off. Take it slow and you'll be rewarded.
There are a few quality youtube tutorials, but you have to already know what to look for. This guy knows his stuff:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bs_Ej32IYgo
Love how we both linked Alan Thrall videos XD. He really does know his stuff!0 -
dudebro200 wrote: »I'd cut out the 20 reps @135.
There is no point to it from a lifting stand point unless you just want to be efficient at lifting light weights and not progress.
Some study came out recently that suggest all that matters is lifting to Failure. 135 @20 brings me close to failure, and feels safer.
I also heard that 20 reps is the best way to warm up.
No offense but there is plenty of hard data over the past 2-3 decades that prove otherwise.
I'm not trying to down you bud, it just sounds more like something random a goof youtuber would say. I've never heard of a warm up set that requires failure.
If you are having pain, it's probably from poor form along with too heavy of a weight. A common problem it could be is your abs/back might not be ready for that weight.
My suggestion might be to work a adequate warm up and do 3x5 at a weight that doesnt break form and add 5lbs each time for a while. Progress slowly and forget about the failure idea. That only premotes bad form for a novice lifter.
I got that from study that was linked here on this forum. Not youtube.0 -
maranarasauce93 wrote: »I will echo what others have said regarding the 20-rep "warmup" set. That's far too much volume to be considered a warmup.
One other thing is, when you're in a deficit, you have to pick one - volume or intensity. When in a calorie deficit you can't possibly hope to achieve a high volume of reps with good intensity throughout due to the lack of available muscle glycogen. You have to do less volume with high intensity if you intend to get stronger.
Also, the various supporting muscles involved in squatting need more time to adjust to the lift after significant time off. Take it slow and you'll be rewarded.
There are a few quality youtube tutorials, but you have to already know what to look for. This guy knows his stuff:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bs_Ej32IYgo
Love how we both linked Alan Thrall videos XD. He really does know his stuff!
Alan Thrall seems like a nice guy and explains things very well but he has since learned this that this tutorial is suboptimal. Of course if you feel high bar is for you, go for it...it's just Alan has changed his strength training and getting results.
Late last year Dr. Austin Buraki started coaching Alan and since Alan has put out a video showing why this video is obsolete in many ways.
Here is the newest video where he basically tells you the Rippetoe version of low bar squat and how he is learning to squat optimal.
https://youtu.be/bbNA17KjBzU
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dudebro200 wrote: »I got that from study that was linked here on this forum. Not youtube.
I hate to break this to you but probably 90% of things posted here at MFP is complete bull. You should question everything you read from every source. Some studies that are published only have 10-12 college kids participating yet it is written as it was the gold standard.
If you want to do twenty rep schemes as warm ups, by all means do so.
I've done some pretty stupid things lifting weights for over 35 years and spun my wheels. I've done it, it doesn't work for most goals.
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dudebro200 wrote: »dudebro200 wrote: »I'd cut out the 20 reps @135.
There is no point to it from a lifting stand point unless you just want to be efficient at lifting light weights and not progress.
Some study came out recently that suggest all that matters is lifting to Failure. 135 @20 brings me close to failure, and feels safer.
I also heard that 20 reps is the best way to warm up.
No offense but there is plenty of hard data over the past 2-3 decades that prove otherwise.
I'm not trying to down you bud, it just sounds more like something random a goof youtuber would say. I've never heard of a warm up set that requires failure.
If you are having pain, it's probably from poor form along with too heavy of a weight. A common problem it could be is your abs/back might not be ready for that weight.
My suggestion might be to work a adequate warm up and do 3x5 at a weight that doesnt break form and add 5lbs each time for a while. Progress slowly and forget about the failure idea. That only premotes bad form for a novice lifter.
I got that from study that was linked here on this forum. Not youtube.
uuhhhhhh.2 -
20 reps total as a warm-up might not be too awful, though in one set seems odd. Stronglifts has me doing 13 reps to warm up, though as sets of 5, 5 and 3. And the weight is about 40% of the work set weight, so OP is lifting more than that.0
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maranarasauce93 wrote: »I will echo what others have said regarding the 20-rep "warmup" set. That's far too much volume to be considered a warmup.
One other thing is, when you're in a deficit, you have to pick one - volume or intensity. When in a calorie deficit you can't possibly hope to achieve a high volume of reps with good intensity throughout due to the lack of available muscle glycogen. You have to do less volume with high intensity if you intend to get stronger.
Also, the various supporting muscles involved in squatting need more time to adjust to the lift after significant time off. Take it slow and you'll be rewarded.
There are a few quality youtube tutorials, but you have to already know what to look for. This guy knows his stuff:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bs_Ej32IYgo
Love how we both linked Alan Thrall videos XD. He really does know his stuff!
Alan Thrall seems like a nice guy and explains things very well but he has since learned this that this tutorial is suboptimal. Of course if you feel high bar is for you, go for it...it's just Alan has changed his strength training and getting results.
Late last year Dr. Austin Buraki started coaching Alan and since Alan has put out a video showing why this video is obsolete in many ways.
Here is the newest video where he basically tells you the Rippetoe version of low bar squat and how he is learning to squat optimal.https://youtu.be/bbNA17KjBzU
Gotcha. I pretty much feel like Rippetoe is the go to guy when it comes to proper bar placement and movement patterns for the low bar squat. However, I do think the cues that Alan has used to help with his training and suggestions can be applicable. Pitching forward or having a "stripper booty squat" really isn't a good habit to get into and forces you to exert more effort with your back. That's why I cited the "squat sin" video versus his "how to squat"video.2 -
dudebro200 wrote: »I got that from study that was linked here on this forum. Not youtube.
I hate to break this to you but probably 90% of things posted here at MFP is complete bull. You should question everything you read from every source. Some studies that are published only have 10-12 college kids participating yet it is written as it was the gold standard.
If you want to do twenty rep schemes as warm ups, by all means do so.
I've done some pretty stupid things lifting weights for over 35 years and spun my wheels. I've done it, it doesn't work for most goals.
The study seem legit to me, but I don't have the background to really opine on anything.
I am just not even going to do squats anymore. It's too complicated, and seems really easy to mess up with dire consequences.
My legs and calve muslces are very large due to my genetics, and I don't need to do many leg exercises to have the aesthetic that I want. I am not really interested in squatting large amounts of weight. In fact, I hate the fact that my legs respond to training better than my upper body.
Thanks for the advice guys. I am just going to quit squats altogether.
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dudebro200 wrote: »I am just not even going to do squats anymore. It's too complicated, and seems really easy to mess up with dire consequences.
Switch to goblet squats. It's a self-correcting exercise, and your hips won't dart up first. It also tends to be more functional than back squats. Add a few sets of deadlifts and lunges and you're on your way.
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dudebro200 wrote: »dudebro200 wrote: »I got that from study that was linked here on this forum. Not youtube.
I hate to break this to you but probably 90% of things posted here at MFP is complete bull. You should question everything you read from every source. Some studies that are published only have 10-12 college kids participating yet it is written as it was the gold standard.
If you want to do twenty rep schemes as warm ups, by all means do so.
I've done some pretty stupid things lifting weights for over 35 years and spun my wheels. I've done it, it doesn't work for most goals.
The study seem legit to me, but I don't have the background to really opine on anything.
I am just not even going to do squats anymore. It's too complicated, and seems really easy to mess up with dire consequences.
My legs and calve muslces are very large due to my genetics, and I don't need to do many leg exercises to have the aesthetic that I want. I am not really interested in squatting large amounts of weight. In fact, I hate the fact that my legs respond to training better than my upper body.
Thanks for the advice guys. I am just going to quit squats altogether.
On the plus side, without squats there's more time for curls brah!3
This discussion has been closed.
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