CICO, It's a math formula
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Question: could you maintain the same weight (or even gain body weight) while eating a caloric deficit? For example, if you are increasing muscle mass but losing fat?ladyreva78 wrote: »
Step on the scale. Check the number. Compare the number to 4 weeks previous.
Higher? Eat less.
Same? Eat less.
Lower? keep eating the same.
You don't need to count calories for that. Counting calories just makes it easier to track how much less you need to eat.
ETA: I'm aware that fat weighs more than muscle. Part of the reason for asking this is to understand what "CO" means. Calories that are converted into body fat obviously aren't part of CO, but what about proteins that the body uses to build muscle tissue? I could see this being answered either way. One way to think about it might be to say that body is using the proteins, so it's CO, just like other caloric nutrients. Another way might be to say that the protein is being stored as part of the body, like fat, so it's not CO.
No.
It takes up more space.
Why do this?
Because fat doesn't weigh more than muscle at the same weights.
Read that aloud to yourself.
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Question: could you maintain the same weight (or even gain body weight) while eating a caloric deficit? For example, if you are increasing muscle mass but losing fat?ladyreva78 wrote: »
Step on the scale. Check the number. Compare the number to 4 weeks previous.
Higher? Eat less.
Same? Eat less.
Lower? keep eating the same.
You don't need to count calories for that. Counting calories just makes it easier to track how much less you need to eat.
ETA: I'm aware that fat weighs more than muscle. Part of the reason for asking this is to understand what "CO" means. Calories that are converted into body fat obviously aren't part of CO, but what about proteins that the body uses to build muscle tissue? I could see this being answered either way. One way to think about it might be to say that body is using the proteins, so it's CO, just like other caloric nutrients. Another way might be to say that the protein is being stored as part of the body, like fat, so it's not CO.
No.
It takes up more space.
Why do this?
Because fat doesn't weigh more than muscle at the same weights.
Which is exactly why it's a given that you aren't comparing the same weights. Do I need to mention the marbles and feathers comparison again?3 -
@dfwesq
Question: could you maintain the same weight (or even gain body weight) while eating a caloric deficit? For example, if you are increasing muscle mass but losing fat?ladyreva78 wrote: »
Step on the scale. Check the number. Compare the number to 4 weeks previous.
Higher? Eat less.
Same? Eat less.
Lower? keep eating the same.
You don't need to count calories for that. Counting calories just makes it easier to track how much less you need to eat.
ETA: I'm aware that fat weighs more than muscle. Part of the reason for asking this is to understand what "CO" means. Calories that are converted into body fat obviously aren't part of CO, but what about proteins that the body uses to build muscle tissue? I could see this being answered either way. One way to think about it might be to say that body is using the proteins, so it's CO, just like other caloric nutrients. Another way might be to say that the protein is being stored as part of the body, like fat, so it's not CO.
If you manage to do a perfect recomp - adding muscle and losing fat while staying the same weight then you are actually in a small energy deficit.
Between CI and CO there is also stored energy (potential energy if you prefer that terminology).
Think of your entire body as an energy store - fat has a far higher energy density than muscle. So the total calorific value of a fat 200lb person will be higher than the total calorific value of a lean 200lb person.
Eric Helms / Lawrence Judd article explains in more detail, long but good read....
https://muscleandstrengthpyramids.com/calorie-deficit-gain-weight/
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Wynterbourne wrote: »
Question: could you maintain the same weight (or even gain body weight) while eating a caloric deficit? For example, if you are increasing muscle mass but losing fat?ladyreva78 wrote: »
Step on the scale. Check the number. Compare the number to 4 weeks previous.
Higher? Eat less.
Same? Eat less.
Lower? keep eating the same.
You don't need to count calories for that. Counting calories just makes it easier to track how much less you need to eat.
ETA: I'm aware that fat weighs more than muscle. Part of the reason for asking this is to understand what "CO" means. Calories that are converted into body fat obviously aren't part of CO, but what about proteins that the body uses to build muscle tissue? I could see this being answered either way. One way to think about it might be to say that body is using the proteins, so it's CO, just like other caloric nutrients. Another way might be to say that the protein is being stored as part of the body, like fat, so it's not CO.
No.
It takes up more space.
Why do this?
Because fat doesn't weigh more than muscle at the same weights.
Which is exactly why it's a given that you aren't comparing the same weights. Do I need to mention the marbles and feathers comparison again?
I suspect there might be some confusion here because the saying is usually that "muscle weighs more than fat" and not "fat weighs more than muscle" which is what was stated by @dfwesq.
(Although "muscle is denser than fat" is what is actually meant).4 -
Wynterbourne wrote: »
Question: could you maintain the same weight (or even gain body weight) while eating a caloric deficit? For example, if you are increasing muscle mass but losing fat?ladyreva78 wrote: »
Step on the scale. Check the number. Compare the number to 4 weeks previous.
Higher? Eat less.
Same? Eat less.
Lower? keep eating the same.
You don't need to count calories for that. Counting calories just makes it easier to track how much less you need to eat.
ETA: I'm aware that fat weighs more than muscle. Part of the reason for asking this is to understand what "CO" means. Calories that are converted into body fat obviously aren't part of CO, but what about proteins that the body uses to build muscle tissue? I could see this being answered either way. One way to think about it might be to say that body is using the proteins, so it's CO, just like other caloric nutrients. Another way might be to say that the protein is being stored as part of the body, like fat, so it's not CO.
No.
It takes up more space.
Why do this?
Because fat doesn't weigh more than muscle at the same weights.
Which is exactly why it's a given that you aren't comparing the same weights. Do I need to mention the marbles and feathers comparison again?
I suspect there might be some confusion here because the saying is usually that "muscle weighs more than fat" and not "fat weighs more than muscle" which is what was stated by @dfwesq.
(Although "muscle is denser than fat" is what is actually meant).
I'm fine with "muscle weighs more than fat" because people generally understand that we're talking about muscle being heavier than fat per unit of volume resulting in a more compact look at the same or heavier weight. It's a common thing to say and understand. "Muscle is denser than fat" may not be understood right away because it's not as common of a phrase and some might have to mull it in their head a bit to visualize the concept of density and how it relates to weight. That's semantic nitpicking to me.
ETA: I agree with what you are saying and I quoted your post to append not to disagree.2 -
Surplus not deficit.
@dfwesq
Question: could you maintain the same weight (or even gain body weight) while eating a caloric deficit? For example, if you are increasing muscle mass but losing fat?ladyreva78 wrote: »
Step on the scale. Check the number. Compare the number to 4 weeks previous.
Higher? Eat less.
Same? Eat less.
Lower? keep eating the same.
You don't need to count calories for that. Counting calories just makes it easier to track how much less you need to eat.
ETA: I'm aware that fat weighs more than muscle. Part of the reason for asking this is to understand what "CO" means. Calories that are converted into body fat obviously aren't part of CO, but what about proteins that the body uses to build muscle tissue? I could see this being answered either way. One way to think about it might be to say that body is using the proteins, so it's CO, just like other caloric nutrients. Another way might be to say that the protein is being stored as part of the body, like fat, so it's not CO.
If you manage to do a perfect recomp - adding muscle and losing fat while staying the same weight then you are actually in a small energy deficit.
Between CI and CO there is also stored energy (potential energy if you prefer that terminology).
Think of your entire body as an energy store - fat has a far higher energy density than muscle. So the total calorific value of a fat 200lb person will be higher than the total calorific value of a lean 200lb person.
Eric Helms / Lawrence Judd article explains in more detail, long but good read....
https://muscleandstrengthpyramids.com/calorie-deficit-gain-weight/
While the caloric "value" of a fat person is higher, the NEAT of a 200lb 12% BF person is greater than the NEAT of a 200lb 18% BF person.
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I have never actually seen anyone refute the energy equation that is CICO on the boards.
I have however seen many people expressing frustration with different aspects of weight loss shut down by others insisting CICO is the only thing they need to consider.
I'm sorry, but I have to disagree. Every day there are multiple posts on these boards about the magic of apple cider vinegar etc.
People repeatedly explain CICO to try and get people to stop looking for the 'magic' solution, and take a hard look at the number they need to hit.
Once people realize that its just a number, then other issues may come up....why they can't stay in that limit. why they are hungry all the time. why they need to eat when they're not hungry....
Those ARE issues that they need to confront, but before they can do that, they need to know that the basic concept is really not that hard. No one is saying that the 'touchy feely' part of weight loss may not be tough for someone. But also realize, that for many people, its that simple. Not everyone needs the psychoanalysis.....12 -
Just want to put this out there for some of the newbies, and others that may be a bit confused about the whole concept of "CICO"- Calories in VS Calories Out.
First, CICO is a math formula that will tell you one of three things.
If you want to lose weight, then you need to make your Calories In less than Out = calorie deficit to lose weight.
Second, if you want to maintain then you need of make your calories in = calories out = maintenance to maintain current weight.
Finally, if you want to gain, then you need to make your calories in greater than your calories out = caloric surplus.
CICO is not a way of eating, I repeat CICO is not a way of eating. If you are doing Keto, low carb, moderate protein/moderate carbs, IIFYM, etc and you are gaining, maintaining, or losing weight then you are using the fundamental principle of CICO.
CICO is not eating a diet of 100% "junk," or ignoring nutrition, or not caring about body composition, it is just a math formula that tells you to reach a goal. The formula is not perfect and it requires trial and error, but in the end it works for everyone, period.
If your goal is straight weight loss then you can just apply CICO, and eat less than you burn.
If your goal is to be more lean, or have advanced body composition goals, then you are going to need macro/micro adherence + a structured exercise regimen.
Finally, all calories are equal in that they provide the same measure of energy; however, they do not all contain the same nutritional profile.
Very well said.
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annaskiski wrote: »I have never actually seen anyone refute the energy equation that is CICO on the boards.
I have however seen many people expressing frustration with different aspects of weight loss shut down by others insisting CICO is the only thing they need to consider.
I'm sorry, but I have to disagree. Every day there are multiple posts on these boards about the magic of apple cider vinegar etc.
People repeatedly explain CICO to try and get people to stop looking for the 'magic' solution, and take a hard look at the number they need to hit.
Once people realize that its just a number, then other issues may come up....why they can't stay in that limit. why they are hungry all the time. why they need to eat when they're not hungry....
Those ARE issues that they need to confront, but before they can do that, they need to know that the basic concept is really not that hard. No one is saying that the 'touchy feely' part of weight loss may not be tough for someone. But also realize, that for many people, its that simple. Not everyone needs the psychoanalysis.....
Agreed. I also see a lot of anecdotal sharing of the ways people have learned to manage and overcome the "touchy feely" aspects of weight loss and maintenance. Because along with the multiple threads about CICO doesn't work! there are also lots and lots about hunger, managing intake when at work/out with friends/on holiday. There are threads about binge eating. There are threads about managing illnesses and medications whilst trying to lose weight. Physical limitations. And multiple others. I see people going in there and trying to help with various strategies and even books and other resources people might find useful.
Of course there will always be reiteration of CICO because lots of people find getting their head round that very freeing and can go a long way to help managing the psychological aspect.
Lots of people report empowerment from finally knowing the numbers and exactly how it all works.
If that's just shutting everyone down with CICO! Then I don't know how much more we can do really.
Of course there will always be those that are less than helpful but that's the nature of the forum environment.10 -
@stanmann571stanmann571 wrote: »
Surplus not deficit.
@dfwesq
Question: could you maintain the same weight (or even gain body weight) while eating a caloric deficit? For example, if you are increasing muscle mass but losing fat?ladyreva78 wrote: »
Step on the scale. Check the number. Compare the number to 4 weeks previous.
Higher? Eat less.
Same? Eat less.
Lower? keep eating the same.
You don't need to count calories for that. Counting calories just makes it easier to track how much less you need to eat.
ETA: I'm aware that fat weighs more than muscle. Part of the reason for asking this is to understand what "CO" means. Calories that are converted into body fat obviously aren't part of CO, but what about proteins that the body uses to build muscle tissue? I could see this being answered either way. One way to think about it might be to say that body is using the proteins, so it's CO, just like other caloric nutrients. Another way might be to say that the protein is being stored as part of the body, like fat, so it's not CO.
If you manage to do a perfect recomp - adding muscle and losing fat while staying the same weight then you are actually in a small energy deficit.
Between CI and CO there is also stored energy (potential energy if you prefer that terminology).
Think of your entire body as an energy store - fat has a far higher energy density than muscle. So the total calorific value of a fat 200lb person will be higher than the total calorific value of a lean 200lb person.
Eric Helms / Lawrence Judd article explains in more detail, long but good read....
https://muscleandstrengthpyramids.com/calorie-deficit-gain-weight/
While the caloric "value" of a fat person is higher, the NEAT of a 200lb 12% BF person is greater than the NEAT of a 200lb 18% BF person.
No deficit, not surplus.
The 200lb person losing fat/gaining muscle over time is in a deficit. Read the article.
(Wasn't comparing the NEAT of two different people or the same person with different body comp.)
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...I think many times on this forum people present the equation without offering any actual suggesting for managing the peripheral factors.
The peripheral factors (of which there are many) are so individualized and complex that it would take writing a huge book about it to offer useful suggestions. Psychological factors, cultural factors, socio-economic factors, medical/hormonal factors, food preferences, eating/exercise habits, etc. It would also take a lot of back and forth with each individual person to gather enough information to make useful suggestions. And chances are very good that if somebody is qualified enough to sift through all that, they ain't doing it for free. That's a dietician, doctor, psychologist and personal trainer all rolled into one. And those people get paid for what they do.
And none of that changes the fact that CICO applies to everybody. How you manage to do it is up to the individual, but in the end it all comes down to that simple equation. It's just unfortunate that a lot of people want to make it a lot more complicated than it really is.
Yeah, never said it changes the equation.
And are you suggesting that because external factors are varied an complex mfp forums should ignore them and only ever speak about the underlying CI:CO ratio?
If someone post something like, 'I've gained 15 kg over the last year since I started my new job' ... it might be more helpful to
acknowledge things such as incorporating more activity, bringing portion controlled meals/snacks, getting organised to have a planned dinner organised, prioritising exercise, suggesting the person look at stressors in their life that an impacting their diet, exercise etc than to just write 'all you have to do is eat fewer calories than you expend, it's all CICO'.
...................
I have never actually seen anyone refute the energy equation that is CICO on the boards.
I have however seen many people expressing frustration with different aspects of weight loss shut down by others insisting CICO is the only thing they need to consider.
....................
As I wrote in my previous post, there are numerous equations that can be applied to the human body. Each component of such an equation is subject to variables.
Although the equation is true and correct it is extremely naive to consider that the equation itself is the sole contributing factor.
.....................
I thing you'll find may people are looking for help with HOW to do things, not just x = y = z
... which in is self IS more complicated.
You're going to have to link me to some threads where a poster asks about gaining weight and how to deal with that, and the answer they get are "CICO is all you need to know" with no specific advice, suggestions on what worked for the indifucual, discussion about working in more exercise, comments about finding satiating foods, etc. I can't say I've ever seen a thread where someone asks for help and the only answers they get are "CICO!"
Now if a person says "can I still eat doughnuts and lose weight" then the correct answer is, "yes! All that matters for weight loss is CICO".3 -
This seems to me a bit like stating the distance on a road between A and B is a mile.
Sure, there can be discussion about whether to travel it by walking,cycling, driving a car, skateboarding, riding a donkey etc
And will the conditions be more difficult in rainy weather, hot weather, snow, what shoes should I wear, can I stop along the way,is there a shop en route etc..
But that doesn't change the basic equation - A to B is one mile.
Because a mile is a unit of measure and the variables on how to get there don't change that.18 -
Just want to put this out there for some of the newbies, and others that may be a bit confused about the whole concept of "CICO"- Calories in VS Calories Out.
First, CICO is a math formula that will tell you one of three things.
If you want to lose weight, then you need to make your Calories In less than Out = calorie deficit to lose weight.
Second, if you want to maintain then you need of make your calories in = calories out = maintenance to maintain current weight.
Finally, if you want to gain, then you need to make your calories in greater than your calories out = caloric surplus.
CICO is not a way of eating, I repeat CICO is not a way of eating. If you are doing Keto, low carb, moderate protein/moderate carbs, IIFYM, etc and you are gaining, maintaining, or losing weight then you are using the fundamental principle of CICO.
CICO is not eating a diet of 100% "junk," or ignoring nutrition, or not caring about body composition, it is just a math formula that tells you to reach a goal. The formula is not perfect and it requires trial and error, but in the end it works for everyone, period.
If your goal is straight weight loss then you can just apply CICO, and eat less than you burn.
If your goal is to be more lean, or have advanced body composition goals, then you are going to need macro/micro adherence + a structured exercise regimen.
Finally, all calories are equal in that they provide the same measure of energy; however, they do not all contain the same nutritional profile.
Gosh, I love your postings!1 -
Question: could you maintain the same weight (or even gain body weight) while eating a caloric deficit? For example, if you are increasing muscle mass but losing fat?ladyreva78 wrote: »
Step on the scale. Check the number. Compare the number to 4 weeks previous.
Higher? Eat less.
Same? Eat less.
Lower? keep eating the same.
You don't need to count calories for that. Counting calories just makes it easier to track how much less you need to eat.
ETA: I'm aware that fat weighs more than muscle. Part of the reason for asking this is to understand what "CO" means. Calories that are converted into body fat obviously aren't part of CO, but what about proteins that the body uses to build muscle tissue? I could see this being answered either way. One way to think about it might be to say that body is using the proteins, so it's CO, just like other caloric nutrients. Another way might be to say that the protein is being stored as part of the body, like fat, so it's not CO.
No.
It takes up more space.
Why do this?
Well, it certainly shows that one is bigger than the other, even though they weigh the same. If you put a pound of feathers next to a pound of bricks, your whole room could be filled with feathers (aka fat) while the brick (aka muscle) takes up this teeny weeny corner....hidden behind all that fat.
Same with muscle (aka brick) and fat (aka feathers)-one takes up less space than the other, but they scale weight is exactly the same.
I used to argue about incessantly because I knew what I meant (what I'm saying above), but other people were never sure if I meant a pound of fat literally weighs less than a pound of feathers or whether a pound of fat takes up more space than a pound of feathers.
So, why not show a picture that illustrates the fact?2 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »Wynterbourne wrote: »
Question: could you maintain the same weight (or even gain body weight) while eating a caloric deficit? For example, if you are increasing muscle mass but losing fat?ladyreva78 wrote: »
Step on the scale. Check the number. Compare the number to 4 weeks previous.
Higher? Eat less.
Same? Eat less.
Lower? keep eating the same.
You don't need to count calories for that. Counting calories just makes it easier to track how much less you need to eat.
ETA: I'm aware that fat weighs more than muscle. Part of the reason for asking this is to understand what "CO" means. Calories that are converted into body fat obviously aren't part of CO, but what about proteins that the body uses to build muscle tissue? I could see this being answered either way. One way to think about it might be to say that body is using the proteins, so it's CO, just like other caloric nutrients. Another way might be to say that the protein is being stored as part of the body, like fat, so it's not CO.
No.
It takes up more space.
Why do this?
Because fat doesn't weigh more than muscle at the same weights.
Which is exactly why it's a given that you aren't comparing the same weights. Do I need to mention the marbles and feathers comparison again?
I suspect there might be some confusion here because the saying is usually that "muscle weighs more than fat" and not "fat weighs more than muscle" which is what was stated by @dfwesq.
(Although "muscle is denser than fat" is what is actually meant).
I'm fine with "muscle weighs more than fat" because people generally understand that we're talking about muscle being heavier than fat per unit of volume resulting in a more compact look at the same or heavier weight. It's a common thing to say and understand. "Muscle is denser than fat" may not be understood right away because it's not as common of a phrase and some might have to mull it in their head a bit to visualize the concept of density and how it relates to weight. That's semantic nitpicking to me.
ETA: I agree with what you are saying and I quoted your post to append not to disagree.
I agree with all of this. It's easier to get the point across to people, albeit not explicitly accurate verbiage.1 -
@stanmann571stanmann571 wrote: »
Surplus not deficit.
@dfwesq
Question: could you maintain the same weight (or even gain body weight) while eating a caloric deficit? For example, if you are increasing muscle mass but losing fat?ladyreva78 wrote: »
Step on the scale. Check the number. Compare the number to 4 weeks previous.
Higher? Eat less.
Same? Eat less.
Lower? keep eating the same.
You don't need to count calories for that. Counting calories just makes it easier to track how much less you need to eat.
ETA: I'm aware that fat weighs more than muscle. Part of the reason for asking this is to understand what "CO" means. Calories that are converted into body fat obviously aren't part of CO, but what about proteins that the body uses to build muscle tissue? I could see this being answered either way. One way to think about it might be to say that body is using the proteins, so it's CO, just like other caloric nutrients. Another way might be to say that the protein is being stored as part of the body, like fat, so it's not CO.
If you manage to do a perfect recomp - adding muscle and losing fat while staying the same weight then you are actually in a small energy deficit.
Between CI and CO there is also stored energy (potential energy if you prefer that terminology).
Think of your entire body as an energy store - fat has a far higher energy density than muscle. So the total calorific value of a fat 200lb person will be higher than the total calorific value of a lean 200lb person.
Eric Helms / Lawrence Judd article explains in more detail, long but good read....
https://muscleandstrengthpyramids.com/calorie-deficit-gain-weight/
While the caloric "value" of a fat person is higher, the NEAT of a 200lb 12% BF person is greater than the NEAT of a 200lb 18% BF person.
No deficit, not surplus.
The 200lb person losing fat/gaining muscle over time is in a deficit. Read the article.
(Wasn't comparing the NEAT of two different people or the same person with different body comp.)
So bottom line from the study is that CICO isn't true.
6 groups gained weight on a deficit.
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cmriverside wrote: »+1 for the Oxford comma.
I just looked it up - this is how I was taught to use commas! My daughter is a copy-editor (as well as a writer) and she drives me nuts when she proofs stuff for me and takes out the commas that I so carefully put in! It doesn't look right to me.
I'm a copy editor and I put them in, actually.
It depends on the style guide you follow - academic writing guides mostly require it rather than ban it, so just tell your daughter you're writing at a higher level than the stuff she normally edits.2 -
Yeah, but if we don't move the goalposts and nitpick at things your post didn't even say, how can we argue and derail your thread???
[/quote]
2 likes for this!!
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Thanks - this is helpful.
@dfwesq
Question: could you maintain the same weight (or even gain body weight) while eating a caloric deficit? For example, if you are increasing muscle mass but losing fat?ladyreva78 wrote: »
Step on the scale. Check the number. Compare the number to 4 weeks previous.
Higher? Eat less.
Same? Eat less.
Lower? keep eating the same.
You don't need to count calories for that. Counting calories just makes it easier to track how much less you need to eat.
ETA: I'm aware that fat weighs more than muscle. Part of the reason for asking this is to understand what "CO" means. Calories that are converted into body fat obviously aren't part of CO, but what about proteins that the body uses to build muscle tissue? I could see this being answered either way. One way to think about it might be to say that body is using the proteins, so it's CO, just like other caloric nutrients. Another way might be to say that the protein is being stored as part of the body, like fat, so it's not CO.
If you manage to do a perfect recomp - adding muscle and losing fat while staying the same weight then you are actually in a small energy deficit.
Between CI and CO there is also stored energy (potential energy if you prefer that terminology).
Think of your entire body as an energy store - fat has a far higher energy density than muscle. So the total calorific value of a fat 200lb person will be higher than the total calorific value of a lean 200lb person.
Eric Helms / Lawrence Judd article explains in more detail, long but good read....
https://muscleandstrengthpyramids.com/calorie-deficit-gain-weight/
I think this is worth remembering when people equate CI<CO with weight loss. It's really describing net calorie or energy loss. (I'm still not completely sure how to account for tissue other than fat. Is it considered stored, or does it count as CO?)
For overweight or obese people that will usually, but not necessarily, result in weight loss. But the rate of weight loss isn't necessarily predictable, because weight on the scale measures the whole body, not just fat. Other things that affect weight, like muscle gain, cause CICO not to be a very accurate predictor of the rate of weight loss. (I'm using muscle gain as an example because a lot of people who start dieting also start exercising or increase their exercise and may start building muscle mass.) In other words, "My calorie intake is X and my calorie use is Y, so CICO predicts I will lose Z pounds per week" is only correct if the person's body is losing fat but not gaining or losing significant amounts of any other tissue. That doesn't mean CICO not helpful or that someone isn't losing fat.0
This discussion has been closed.
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