My best friend doesnt believe in CICO

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Replies

  • Lillymoo01
    Lillymoo01 Posts: 2,865 Member
    I have read on a different forum that it isn't about calories in verses calories out but hormones. This person is considered to be the most knowledgeable there and they accept her advice over all others. I'm like sratching my head wondering how she could be 'knowledgeable' and stuff up basic science. That or I simply don't have a clue and it is by a miracle that I have lost weight, especially with a diet that has carbs including fruit in it which causes insulin to do these weird things.
  • HappyGrape
    HappyGrape Posts: 436 Member
    It doesn't work for everyone. Some people hate numbers, get way to obsessed about being perfect (happens to any type of weight loss, not only cico) some aren't honest when tracking and underestimate!

    What I would say is for me CICO is like budgeting money
    Some people have great income (or calorie burn, as athletes) and need not to worry
    Some do great with general awareness
    Some do strict budget on and off
    Others enjoy knowing where they are at, how much they can afford, how much they have towards goals
    Some don't mind being broke and spend borrow as they feel like
    Some get help and ask someone else to do it for them


    Do what suits you. I tried to give up calorie counting for no other reason but such comments. Guess what - I regained the weight I lost! It takes me about 5 minutes a day now. I enjoy my life and I find maintenance easy. I like having the data to go back to - what did I eat last week, I felt really good, should I eat more like that this week to? It costs me nothing. I don't see any good reason why should I give it up and have no intention to do so! It's not for everyone but I have been researching long term maintainers lately and many do - either are very aware, do it on and off and do in consistently. Most people aren't maintainers, they are regainers as they view weight loss as end point.

    Do what works for you. Set up boundaries, say I am not interested in discussing with you how I eat and don't make excuses! It's your health and your life, and you can decide what is best for you without having to justify it!
  • LexyGetsFitUK
    LexyGetsFitUK Posts: 13 Member
    stanmann571 wrote: »
    LexyGetsFitUK wrote: »
    Might be an unpopular opinion, but for me CICO only works till a certain point. I have a history with disordered eating, so I've spent lots of time counting every single calorie that gets close to my mouth and obsessively tracking my exercises, but whenever I only focused on CICO, I could never get below 110lbs (I'm 5'2) Most days I was barely eating 300cal and exercising like crazy but I didn't lose another pound or another inch. Looking back, I'm not surprised because more often than not, I ate less than 1000cal and nearly all my food was junk food high in sodium and carbs. (A 300 cal day was usually small fries from McDonalds and a diet coke...) Obviously CICO works, but at a certain point you need to start looking at what you're eating too.

    "most days"... and on the other days?? binge right?

    CICO always works... but fasting for "most days" puts you into a state where you will binge.... Especially if you're exercising every day.

    I was there at one point in my life about 10 years ago... except I was doing it by accident... fortunately my dietician had me diary for 2 weeks and put me on a feeding schedule... I lost 10 pounds...

    Thats why MFP has minimum calorie recommendations and why so many here argue so aggressively against VLCD because ultimately even if you do stick with it, you'll not be meeting your nutrient needs and you'll start losing other things than weight.... like organ function, and hair, and fingernails.

    Nope, no binging at that time - like I said, I was obsessed with how many calories I ate. I ate to a deficit of at least 1000 cal a day. And yes, even on a *kitten* diet it worked like charm for 17 lbs. (SW was 127, I wanted to get to 100) I'm not disputing that CICO works, but it didn't get me to my goal weight.

    This time around, I'm trying to lose the weight by focusing not only on CICO but also on eating clean. I should know in a month or so if this can get me under 110...
  • orchidlilly21
    orchidlilly21 Posts: 1 Member
    edited June 2017
  • bagge72
    bagge72 Posts: 1,377 Member
    GaleHawkins wrote: »
    laurenebargar wrote: »
    So the title says it all. My best friend doesn't believe in CICO. I only told them recently that I started losing weight ( I told them once I was 15 lbs down) we went for a hike the other day, and then were walking back to their house, we stopped for ice cream. I had a ton of calories left so I got a flavor I actually wanted rather than just frozen yogurt. She was shocked and told me i'd never lose weight if im eating ice cream, and that our hike didnt count as exercise because we weren't in a gym (we burned over 1000 calories according to my fitbit!) I explained to her what MFP is all about it, and CICO and she said I was "getting obsessive" with calories I need to stop focusing on that, and eat only healthy foods and go to the gym for an hour every day, dont pay attention to calories. Im shocked that she would have such a strong opinion on it, shes a science major so I assumed something simple like CICO would make sense to her, you need to burn more calories than your body is taking in. Finally I explained I could eat one scoop of ice cream every day, even if thats all I ate, and I was in calorie deficit I would lose weight, she simply just said no you would gain weight and be terribly unhealthy. I agree you wouldnt be healthy, but you would still lose weight. That was it, she said after she didnt want to talk about it anymore. What do you guys think? I know CICO works, its been working for me, and so many other people on MFP. Why do people think CICO wont work??

    @laurenebargar you both are correct actually. She is talking about how to eat to live a long healthy life. You are talking about losing weight in a way that may or may not lead to a premature and painful death.

    CICO does not directly to human beings that are body, mind and spirit but it does apply quite well to a car engine.

    The macro one eats instead of the number of calories that one eats is what determines future health.

    Now if a person has a physical/mental condition that prevents the "You Are Full Stop Eating" signals then perhaps long term calorie counting will be a requirement but not in otherwise healthy humans.

    Intuitive eating may be damaged in people that never ate a healthy macro in their life. In that case they may be required to count calories for life. Just keep in mind in humans CICO is a false concept when it comes to good health and a long life. If one does not get the protein and fats that are required for good health then they will suffer health wise. The ratio of one's macro is not fixed in some book somewhere but is something we learn over time.

    They weren't both right. Her argument wasn't that she would be healthy if she ate only ice cream all of the time, as long as she counted calories. It was that CICO is how you lose weight, and for her knowing how much to eat is how she lost her weight. Her friend was wrong because she said she would be unhealthy and gain weight because she was eating ice cream.

  • bagge72
    bagge72 Posts: 1,377 Member
    LexyGetsFitUK wrote: »
    stanmann571 wrote: »
    LexyGetsFitUK wrote: »
    Might be an unpopular opinion, but for me CICO only works till a certain point. I have a history with disordered eating, so I've spent lots of time counting every single calorie that gets close to my mouth and obsessively tracking my exercises, but whenever I only focused on CICO, I could never get below 110lbs (I'm 5'2) Most days I was barely eating 300cal and exercising like crazy but I didn't lose another pound or another inch. Looking back, I'm not surprised because more often than not, I ate less than 1000cal and nearly all my food was junk food high in sodium and carbs. (A 300 cal day was usually small fries from McDonalds and a diet coke...) Obviously CICO works, but at a certain point you need to start looking at what you're eating too.

    "most days"... and on the other days?? binge right?

    CICO always works... but fasting for "most days" puts you into a state where you will binge.... Especially if you're exercising every day.

    I was there at one point in my life about 10 years ago... except I was doing it by accident... fortunately my dietician had me diary for 2 weeks and put me on a feeding schedule... I lost 10 pounds...

    Thats why MFP has minimum calorie recommendations and why so many here argue so aggressively against VLCD because ultimately even if you do stick with it, you'll not be meeting your nutrient needs and you'll start losing other things than weight.... like organ function, and hair, and fingernails.

    Nope, no binging at that time - like I said, I was obsessed with how many calories I ate. I ate to a deficit of at least 1000 cal a day. And yes, even on a *kitten* diet it worked like charm for 17 lbs. (SW was 127, I wanted to get to 100) I'm not disputing that CICO works, but it didn't get me to my goal weight.

    This time around, I'm trying to lose the weight by focusing not only on CICO but also on eating clean. I should know in a month or so if this can get me under 110...

    That's the thing. Whatever diet you do CICO is the explanation why you lost weight. People keep getting caught up thinking CICO is counting Calories. It's not. It's just a formula.

  • lemurcat12
    lemurcat12 Posts: 30,886 Member
    Anyway, I want to second (third, whatever) the people who said outdoor exercise does not count is even weirder than the calorie point -- I honestly would like to hear how that's defended, as I can't imagine someone thinking about. Also, I'll second the person who said not to assume it's about sabotage or some such but that many people have very weird, set in stone ideas about how weight loss works and often threatening those ideas (especially, I find, the idea that it must be really hard and involve deprivation) tends to be resisted. I have a male co-worker who yoyos -- he eats 1200 for a while, loses 20, and then falls off the wagon. He is similarly resistant to this not being a great idea, and says (also) things like "I need to lose weight, but am not ready to give up bread." (I don't really eat bread, but that's personal preference, I would if it was something I'd miss.) People not only think it has to be a huge sacrifice, but it seems important to them to believe it.
  • DaniG_1987
    DaniG_1987 Posts: 40 Member
    From my experience people don't want to the put in the work that comes with CICO. I've lost 59 pounds since January using CICO and I still have people tell me that CICO doesn't work and that it is too much work / not worth it. I've literally had someone tell me they wish they could lose as much weight as I have and asked exactly how I do it and then say, "Oh no, I'm not tracking what I eat. I refuse to do that." after I tell them how I do it. I think of like car maintenance. I know what kind of gas I put in my car and I know how much gas to put in my car--and it has the power to tell the pump to stop feeding it gas. Why shouldn't I know what kind of food I'm putting in my body to help it perform the best and why not know how much food I need to put in my body to have it run properly. My gas pump stopper was broken from decades of being told to clean my plate regardless of if I was hungry or not, so I see tracking calories and using MFP as my gas pump stopper.

    I think
    A) CICO is really easy if you just stick to it (though that part can be hard for some), to the point that it might be almost too easy. Some people might think it can't work because it can't be that simple
    B) There is nothing sexy about CICO, there is nothing to sell you, and most people feel full while doing it (aside from the first week of doing it I haven't had a night where I've gone to bed hungry). It doesn't really feel like you are working hard to achieve your weight loss.
    C) It kind of goes against everything you are taught about diets. Dieting should be no pizza, no burgers, no ice cream, just salmon or a chicken breast, steamed vegetables and plain brown rice. There is no huge sacrifice with CICO. Yes, you can't have pizza every single day but you can have pizza like once a week.
  • shaggy340
    shaggy340 Posts: 2 Member
    only thing that works for me is MFP, I'm a cyclist and believe me there are loads of overweight cyclists who ride 100+miles per week, so it's not just about expending calories. On MFP I can eat anything I fancy, sometimesI have a fat MacDonalds burger or fish and chips - doesn't matter, so long as I expend more than I eat I lose weight. I'm rarely hungry even on losing 2lbs a week. I do however, find non-exercise days difficult when sticking to the calories - what exercise gives me is the ability to eat things I like and not be sitting there with salad all the time at meals.

    I also have a degree in Sports Science and Physical Education, maybe you can ask your friend to show you the research that refutes CICO?, she might be hard pressed.
  • laurenebargar
    laurenebargar Posts: 3,081 Member
    shaggy340 wrote: »
    only thing that works for me is MFP, I'm a cyclist and believe me there are loads of overweight cyclists who ride 100+miles per week, so it's not just about expending calories. On MFP I can eat anything I fancy, sometimesI have a fat MacDonalds burger or fish and chips - doesn't matter, so long as I expend more than I eat I lose weight. I'm rarely hungry even on losing 2lbs a week. I do however, find non-exercise days difficult when sticking to the calories - what exercise gives me is the ability to eat things I like and not be sitting there with salad all the time at meals.

    I also have a degree in Sports Science and Physical Education, maybe you can ask your friend to show you the research that refutes CICO?, she might be hard pressed.

    That was where the conversation was heading when she said she didnt want to talk about it anymore, which leads me to believe she didnt have any evidence.
  • WinoGelato
    WinoGelato Posts: 13,454 Member
    DaniG_1987 wrote: »
    From my experience people don't want to the put in the work that comes with CICO. I've lost 59 pounds since January using CICO and I still have people tell me that CICO doesn't work and that it is too much work / not worth it. I've literally had someone tell me they wish they could lose as much weight as I have and asked exactly how I do it and then say, "Oh no, I'm not tracking what I eat. I refuse to do that." after I tell them how I do it. I think of like car maintenance. I know what kind of gas I put in my car and I know how much gas to put in my car--and it has the power to tell the pump to stop feeding it gas. Why shouldn't I know what kind of food I'm putting in my body to help it perform the best and why not know how much food I need to put in my body to have it run properly. My gas pump stopper was broken from decades of being told to clean my plate regardless of if I was hungry or not, so I see tracking calories and using MFP as my gas pump stopper.

    I think
    A) CICO is really easy if you just stick to it (though that part can be hard for some), to the point that it might be almost too easy. Some people might think it can't work because it can't be that simple
    B) There is nothing sexy about CICO, there is nothing to sell you, and most people feel full while doing it (aside from the first week of doing it I haven't had a night where I've gone to bed hungry). It doesn't really feel like you are working hard to achieve your weight loss.
    C) It kind of goes against everything you are taught about diets. Dieting should be no pizza, no burgers, no ice cream, just salmon or a chicken breast, steamed vegetables and plain brown rice. There is no huge sacrifice with CICO. Yes, you can't have pizza every single day but you can have pizza like once a week.

    It also sounds like you are under the assumption that CICO is a process or a way to approach weight loss. It isn't. It is just the governing principle of energy balance that guides whether a person loses, maintains, or gains weight according to the amount of calories they burn. It is not a way of eating, it does not mean counting calories. Tracking what you eat is a way to ensure you are in a calorie deficit, but whether you (or anyone else) tracks the calories or not, all human beings are subject to CICO.

    I think what you are describing in your post is what I would refer to as flexible dieting, or, if you are actively tracking macros, maybe IIFYM. And again, not disputing the approach you are taking as I think you make a lot of good points, its just that continuing to refer to counting calories or eating all things in moderation while in a calorie deficit as "using CICO" just perpetuates the confusion amongst those who really don't understand.
  • Tazzie0208
    Tazzie0208 Posts: 66 Member
    What you believe and know because of experience, should be what matters to you. This is your journey and when the day comes that you reached your goal and she sees it, you can say "i told you it works". :)
  • estherdragonbat
    estherdragonbat Posts: 5,283 Member
    laurenebargar wrote: »
    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    Anyway, I want to second (third, whatever) the people who said outdoor exercise does not count is even weirder than the calorie point -- I honestly would like to hear how that's defended, as I can't imagine someone thinking about. Also, I'll second the person who said not to assume it's about sabotage or some such but that many people have very weird, set in stone ideas about how weight loss works and often threatening those ideas (especially, I find, the idea that it must be really hard and involve deprivation) tends to be resisted. I have a male co-worker who yoyos -- he eats 1200 for a while, loses 20, and then falls off the wagon. He is similarly resistant to this not being a great idea, and says (also) things like "I need to lose weight, but am not ready to give up bread." (I don't really eat bread, but that's personal preference, I would if it was something I'd miss.) People not only think it has to be a huge sacrifice, but it seems important to them to believe it.

    Ive seen a few people comment on this, so I figured id ask her, and then add in what this friend said. She feels that hiking was just "walking around with a few hills" something that you should be doing on a daily basis. And that as humans, our bodies are used to be walking around all day, and just walking or running will not contribute to losing any weight.

    To counter that I would just like to add, I've been enjoying my treats, and my food (within my calorie allowance) Hiking, and taking the dog for walks. And today my scale read "199.8" A number I haven't seen in years!

    Full disclosure: I eat back half my exercise calories because I'm not sure I trust the totals MFP gives me, so take this with a grain of salt (unless watching sodium...): I log every walk I take, including 15 minutes round-trip to the corner store. My activity level is set to sedentary to avoid double-dipping (I work from home at a computer, so I consider any walking outside the house to count as activity). I assume that I'm going at 2.5 mph, because I don't walk fast enough to get out of breath, and the approximate distance covered feels right for the time it takes, but I never checked my stride or clocked my pace.

    I just went grocery shopping today. I left the house at 8:32 and returned 11:05. I deducted 12 minutes for waiting in line at checkout/atm, slowing my pace in the grocery aisles, etc. I march in place at red lights. Well... I plugged 140 minutes at 2.5 mph into the exercise tracker and... according to MFP? That's 615 calories. Again, I might be walking a little slower. I'm planning to eat back around 305/310 of those. But even so. 300 calories. From just "walking around". And I can't even pretend there are hills in my part of the world. I've dropped over 60 lbs in 7 months doing a mix of walking, fitness glider, and strength training. And it all counts.

    But it sounds like you know that already. ;)
  • brookekaczor
    brookekaczor Posts: 59 Member
    You probably have to take it from a scientific point of view. Challenge her with questions. For example, ask her how much energy does it take just to exist, how does she know this? How does the body fuel or provide energy? How is this measured? Doesn't it take energy to move the body? Does it take energy to keep your organs, etc. going? How do you measure all of this? What is the difference between going to the gym and going for a walk? What did people do to lose weight before the gym existed? Why is ice cream bad for you? How does it make you fat? A good scientist asks questions....and then looks for answers to those questions. Asking questions and making them answer gets them to think, but if they won't address the question then they won't change how they think. You can only present the information and demonstrate it through losing that weight, and even then she may stick to her guns....and that is because she doesn't want the truth. Best of wishes with your friend.
  • DaniG_1987
    DaniG_1987 Posts: 40 Member
    WinoGelato wrote: »
    DaniG_1987 wrote: »
    From my experience people don't want to the put in the work that comes with CICO. I've lost 59 pounds since January using CICO and I still have people tell me that CICO doesn't work and that it is too much work / not worth it. I've literally had someone tell me they wish they could lose as much weight as I have and asked exactly how I do it and then say, "Oh no, I'm not tracking what I eat. I refuse to do that." after I tell them how I do it. I think of like car maintenance. I know what kind of gas I put in my car and I know how much gas to put in my car--and it has the power to tell the pump to stop feeding it gas. Why shouldn't I know what kind of food I'm putting in my body to help it perform the best and why not know how much food I need to put in my body to have it run properly. My gas pump stopper was broken from decades of being told to clean my plate regardless of if I was hungry or not, so I see tracking calories and using MFP as my gas pump stopper.

    I think
    A) CICO is really easy if you just stick to it (though that part can be hard for some), to the point that it might be almost too easy. Some people might think it can't work because it can't be that simple
    B) There is nothing sexy about CICO, there is nothing to sell you, and most people feel full while doing it (aside from the first week of doing it I haven't had a night where I've gone to bed hungry). It doesn't really feel like you are working hard to achieve your weight loss.
    C) It kind of goes against everything you are taught about diets. Dieting should be no pizza, no burgers, no ice cream, just salmon or a chicken breast, steamed vegetables and plain brown rice. There is no huge sacrifice with CICO. Yes, you can't have pizza every single day but you can have pizza like once a week.

    It also sounds like you are under the assumption that CICO is a process or a way to approach weight loss. It isn't. It is just the governing principle of energy balance that guides whether a person loses, maintains, or gains weight according to the amount of calories they burn. It is not a way of eating, it does not mean counting calories. Tracking what you eat is a way to ensure you are in a calorie deficit, but whether you (or anyone else) tracks the calories or not, all human beings are subject to CICO.

    I think what you are describing in your post is what I would refer to as flexible dieting, or, if you are actively tracking macros, maybe IIFYM. And again, not disputing the approach you are taking as I think you make a lot of good points, its just that continuing to refer to counting calories or eating all things in moderation while in a calorie deficit as "using CICO" just perpetuates the confusion amongst those who really don't understand.

    Yes, I am counting the calories in (CI) and the calories I burn (CO) to lose weight. Once I get to my goal weight I will then still use CICO to maintain my weight but I will adjust the amount of CI to a higher number and possibly adjust CO to a lower number to stay close to the weight I want to be...so I am using the idea behind CICO to advantageously lose weight but it is still CICO. Everything your body does is CICO. I'm just actively looking at my CICO and modifying it. It sounds like OP is doing this as well.
  • CSARdiver
    CSARdiver Posts: 6,252 Member
    Is this your friend?

    gnq3kt3sj44l.png


    Always buying from ACME...always seeing the same results.
  • muri72
    muri72 Posts: 6 Member
    CICO is not true. Sorry. Newer research has proven the theory is flawed. The best explanation of this is from Dr. Fung in his book The Obesity Code. Here are some reference sites on why CICO is flawed.

    http://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/theres-no-sugar-coating-it-all-calories-are-not-created-equal-2016110410602

    http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/16549716.2017.1289650


  • laurenebargar
    laurenebargar Posts: 3,081 Member
    muri72 wrote: »
    CICO is not true. Sorry. Newer research has proven the theory is flawed. The best explanation of this is from Dr. Fung in his book The Obesity Code. Here are some reference sites on why CICO is flawed.

    http://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/theres-no-sugar-coating-it-all-calories-are-not-created-equal-2016110410602

    http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/16549716.2017.1289650


    Ill take a look at these, but CICO seems to be working for me, and hundreds of other people on this site.
  • psuLemon
    psuLemon Posts: 38,422 MFP Moderator
    muri72 wrote: »
    CICO is not true. Sorry. Newer research has proven the theory is flawed. The best explanation of this is from Dr. Fung in his book The Obesity Code. Here are some reference sites on why CICO is flawed.

    http://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/theres-no-sugar-coating-it-all-calories-are-not-created-equal-2016110410602

    http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/16549716.2017.1289650


    CICO isn't really disproved, it's widely misunderstood. All things come down to energy balance and none of these articles have been able to disprove that. On the contrary though, Kevin Hall has done a few of the metabolic ward studies to provide no differences in weight loss whether its low carb, ketogenic or high carb when calories are controlled.

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