My best friend doesnt believe in CICO

JohnnyPenso wrote: »

I haven't had that extreme of an experience but I can tell you that, in spite of the miraculous (to me) results I've achieved and my overwhelmingly positive experience with counting calories, I've only been able to convince one friend to join MFP and her daily log is mostly empty. She actually texted me the other day and asked if I would do her entries for her because it's too confusing and too much work and she forgets all the time. I said no of course.

Most people really have no idea about science in general, no idea how to discern facts from propaganda and no idea how to go about researching things for themselves beyond clicking on the top article that pops up in a Google search. They want solutions handed to them and don't want to think about it. Sad but true, at least in my experience.

Sounds like your friend hasnt hit that point yet where they are TRUELY ready. Shes at the point where shes recognized a problem but feels defeated. I know how it feels and there isnt any motivating that will change it really .. she just has to get there on her own since its her lifestyle that needs to change.

I have read on a different forum that it isn't about calories in verses calories out but hormones. This person is considered to be the most knowledgeable there and they accept her advice over all others. I'm like sratching my head wondering how she could be 'knowledgeable' and stuff up basic science. That or I simply don't have a clue and it is by a miracle that I have lost weight, especially with a diet that has carbs including fruit in it which causes insulin to do these weird things.

stanmann571 wrote: »

LexyGetsFitUK wrote: »

Might be an unpopular opinion, but for me CICO only works till a certain point. I have a history with disordered eating, so I've spent lots of time counting every single calorie that gets close to my mouth and obsessively tracking my exercises, but whenever I only focused on CICO, I could never get below 110lbs (I'm 5'2) Most days I was barely eating 300cal and exercising like crazy but I didn't lose another pound or another inch. Looking back, I'm not surprised because more often than not, I ate less than 1000cal and nearly all my food was junk food high in sodium and carbs. (A 300 cal day was usually small fries from McDonalds and a diet coke...) Obviously CICO works, but at a certain point you need to start looking at what you're eating too.

"most days"... and on the other days?? binge right?

CICO always works... but fasting for "most days" puts you into a state where you will binge.... Especially if you're exercising every day.

I was there at one point in my life about 10 years ago... except I was doing it by accident... fortunately my dietician had me diary for 2 weeks and put me on a feeding schedule... I lost 10 pounds...

Thats why MFP has minimum calorie recommendations and why so many here argue so aggressively against VLCD because ultimately even if you do stick with it, you'll not be meeting your nutrient needs and you'll start losing other things than weight.... like organ function, and hair, and fingernails.

Nope, no binging at that time - like I said, I was obsessed with how many calories I ate. I ate to a deficit of at least 1000 cal a day. And yes, even on a *kitten* diet it worked like charm for 17 lbs. (SW was 127, I wanted to get to 100) I'm not disputing that CICO works, but it didn't get me to my goal weight.

This time around, I'm trying to lose the weight by focusing not only on CICO but also on eating clean. I should know in a month or so if this can get me under 110...

GaleHawkins wrote: »

laurenebargar wrote: »

So the title says it all. My best friend doesn't believe in CICO. I only told them recently that I started losing weight ( I told them once I was 15 lbs down) we went for a hike the other day, and then were walking back to their house, we stopped for ice cream. I had a ton of calories left so I got a flavor I actually wanted rather than just frozen yogurt. She was shocked and told me i'd never lose weight if im eating ice cream, and that our hike didnt count as exercise because we weren't in a gym (we burned over 1000 calories according to my fitbit!) I explained to her what MFP is all about it, and CICO and she said I was "getting obsessive" with calories I need to stop focusing on that, and eat only healthy foods and go to the gym for an hour every day, dont pay attention to calories. Im shocked that she would have such a strong opinion on it, shes a science major so I assumed something simple like CICO would make sense to her, you need to burn more calories than your body is taking in. Finally I explained I could eat one scoop of ice cream every day, even if thats all I ate, and I was in calorie deficit I would lose weight, she simply just said no you would gain weight and be terribly unhealthy. I agree you wouldnt be healthy, but you would still lose weight. That was it, she said after she didnt want to talk about it anymore. What do you guys think? I know CICO works, its been working for me, and so many other people on MFP. Why do people think CICO wont work??

@laurenebargar you both are correct actually. She is talking about how to eat to live a long healthy life. You are talking about losing weight in a way that may or may not lead to a premature and painful death.

CICO does not directly to human beings that are body, mind and spirit but it does apply quite well to a car engine.

The macro one eats instead of the number of calories that one eats is what determines future health.

Now if a person has a physical/mental condition that prevents the "You Are Full Stop Eating" signals then perhaps long term calorie counting will be a requirement but not in otherwise healthy humans.

Intuitive eating may be damaged in people that never ate a healthy macro in their life. In that case they may be required to count calories for life. Just keep in mind in humans CICO is a false concept when it comes to good health and a long life. If one does not get the protein and fats that are required for good health then they will suffer health wise. The ratio of one's macro is not fixed in some book somewhere but is something we learn over time.

They weren't both right. Her argument wasn't that she would be healthy if she ate only ice cream all of the time, as long as she counted calories. It was that CICO is how you lose weight, and for her knowing how much to eat is how she lost her weight. Her friend was wrong because she said she would be unhealthy and gain weight because she was eating ice cream.

LexyGetsFitUK wrote: »

stanmann571 wrote: »

LexyGetsFitUK wrote: »

Might be an unpopular opinion, but for me CICO only works till a certain point. I have a history with disordered eating, so I've spent lots of time counting every single calorie that gets close to my mouth and obsessively tracking my exercises, but whenever I only focused on CICO, I could never get below 110lbs (I'm 5'2) Most days I was barely eating 300cal and exercising like crazy but I didn't lose another pound or another inch. Looking back, I'm not surprised because more often than not, I ate less than 1000cal and nearly all my food was junk food high in sodium and carbs. (A 300 cal day was usually small fries from McDonalds and a diet coke...) Obviously CICO works, but at a certain point you need to start looking at what you're eating too.

"most days"... and on the other days?? binge right?

CICO always works... but fasting for "most days" puts you into a state where you will binge.... Especially if you're exercising every day.

I was there at one point in my life about 10 years ago... except I was doing it by accident... fortunately my dietician had me diary for 2 weeks and put me on a feeding schedule... I lost 10 pounds...

Thats why MFP has minimum calorie recommendations and why so many here argue so aggressively against VLCD because ultimately even if you do stick with it, you'll not be meeting your nutrient needs and you'll start losing other things than weight.... like organ function, and hair, and fingernails.

Nope, no binging at that time - like I said, I was obsessed with how many calories I ate. I ate to a deficit of at least 1000 cal a day. And yes, even on a *kitten* diet it worked like charm for 17 lbs. (SW was 127, I wanted to get to 100) I'm not disputing that CICO works, but it didn't get me to my goal weight.

This time around, I'm trying to lose the weight by focusing not only on CICO but also on eating clean. I should know in a month or so if this can get me under 110...

That's the thing. Whatever diet you do CICO is the explanation why you lost weight. People keep getting caught up thinking CICO is counting Calories. It's not. It's just a formula.

From my experience people don't want to the put in the work that comes with CICO. I've lost 59 pounds since January using CICO and I still have people tell me that CICO doesn't work and that it is too much work / not worth it. I've literally had someone tell me they wish they could lose as much weight as I have and asked exactly how I do it and then say, "Oh no, I'm not tracking what I eat. I refuse to do that." after I tell them how I do it. I think of like car maintenance. I know what kind of gas I put in my car and I know how much gas to put in my car--and it has the power to tell the pump to stop feeding it gas. Why shouldn't I know what kind of food I'm putting in my body to help it perform the best and why not know how much food I need to put in my body to have it run properly. My gas pump stopper was broken from decades of being told to clean my plate regardless of if I was hungry or not, so I see tracking calories and using MFP as my gas pump stopper.

I think
A) CICO is really easy if you just stick to it (though that part can be hard for some), to the point that it might be almost too easy. Some people might think it can't work because it can't be that simple
There is nothing sexy about CICO, there is nothing to sell you, and most people feel full while doing it (aside from the first week of doing it I haven't had a night where I've gone to bed hungry). It doesn't really feel like you are working hard to achieve your weight loss.
C) It kind of goes against everything you are taught about diets. Dieting should be no pizza, no burgers, no ice cream, just salmon or a chicken breast, steamed vegetables and plain brown rice. There is no huge sacrifice with CICO. Yes, you can't have pizza every single day but you can have pizza like once a week.

DaniG_1987 wrote: »

From my experience people don't want to the put in the work that comes with CICO. I've lost 59 pounds since January using CICO and I still have people tell me that CICO doesn't work and that it is too much work / not worth it. I've literally had someone tell me they wish they could lose as much weight as I have and asked exactly how I do it and then say, "Oh no, I'm not tracking what I eat. I refuse to do that." after I tell them how I do it. I think of like car maintenance. I know what kind of gas I put in my car and I know how much gas to put in my car--and it has the power to tell the pump to stop feeding it gas. Why shouldn't I know what kind of food I'm putting in my body to help it perform the best and why not know how much food I need to put in my body to have it run properly. My gas pump stopper was broken from decades of being told to clean my plate regardless of if I was hungry or not, so I see tracking calories and using MFP as my gas pump stopper.

I think
A) CICO is really easy if you just stick to it (though that part can be hard for some), to the point that it might be almost too easy. Some people might think it can't work because it can't be that simple
There is nothing sexy about CICO, there is nothing to sell you, and most people feel full while doing it (aside from the first week of doing it I haven't had a night where I've gone to bed hungry). It doesn't really feel like you are working hard to achieve your weight loss.
C) It kind of goes against everything you are taught about diets. Dieting should be no pizza, no burgers, no ice cream, just salmon or a chicken breast, steamed vegetables and plain brown rice. There is no huge sacrifice with CICO. Yes, you can't have pizza every single day but you can have pizza like once a week.

It also sounds like you are under the assumption that CICO is a process or a way to approach weight loss. It isn't. It is just the governing principle of energy balance that guides whether a person loses, maintains, or gains weight according to the amount of calories they burn. It is not a way of eating, it does not mean counting calories. Tracking what you eat is a way to ensure you are in a calorie deficit, but whether you (or anyone else) tracks the calories or not, all human beings are subject to CICO.

I think what you are describing in your post is what I would refer to as flexible dieting, or, if you are actively tracking macros, maybe IIFYM. And again, not disputing the approach you are taking as I think you make a lot of good points, its just that continuing to refer to counting calories or eating all things in moderation while in a calorie deficit as "using CICO" just perpetuates the confusion amongst those who really don't understand.

laurenebargar wrote: »

lemurcat12 wrote: »

Anyway, I want to second (third, whatever) the people who said outdoor exercise does not count is even weirder than the calorie point -- I honestly would like to hear how that's defended, as I can't imagine someone thinking about. Also, I'll second the person who said not to assume it's about sabotage or some such but that many people have very weird, set in stone ideas about how weight loss works and often threatening those ideas (especially, I find, the idea that it must be really hard and involve deprivation) tends to be resisted. I have a male co-worker who yoyos -- he eats 1200 for a while, loses 20, and then falls off the wagon. He is similarly resistant to this not being a great idea, and says (also) things like "I need to lose weight, but am not ready to give up bread." (I don't really eat bread, but that's personal preference, I would if it was something I'd miss.) People not only think it has to be a huge sacrifice, but it seems important to them to believe it.

Ive seen a few people comment on this, so I figured id ask her, and then add in what this friend said. She feels that hiking was just "walking around with a few hills" something that you should be doing on a daily basis. And that as humans, our bodies are used to be walking around all day, and just walking or running will not contribute to losing any weight.

To counter that I would just like to add, I've been enjoying my treats, and my food (within my calorie allowance) Hiking, and taking the dog for walks. And today my scale read "199.8" A number I haven't seen in years!

Full disclosure: I eat back half my exercise calories because I'm not sure I trust the totals MFP gives me, so take this with a grain of salt (unless watching sodium...): I log every walk I take, including 15 minutes round-trip to the corner store. My activity level is set to sedentary to avoid double-dipping (I work from home at a computer, so I consider any walking outside the house to count as activity). I assume that I'm going at 2.5 mph, because I don't walk fast enough to get out of breath, and the approximate distance covered feels right for the time it takes, but I never checked my stride or clocked my pace.

I just went grocery shopping today. I left the house at 8:32 and returned 11:05. I deducted 12 minutes for waiting in line at checkout/atm, slowing my pace in the grocery aisles, etc. I march in place at red lights. Well... I plugged 140 minutes at 2.5 mph into the exercise tracker and... according to MFP? That's 615 calories. Again, I might be walking a little slower. I'm planning to eat back around 305/310 of those. But even so. 300 calories. From just "walking around". And I can't even pretend there are hills in my part of the world. I've dropped over 60 lbs in 7 months doing a mix of walking, fitness glider, and strength training. And it all counts.

But it sounds like you know that already.

WinoGelato wrote: »

DaniG_1987 wrote: »

From my experience people don't want to the put in the work that comes with CICO. I've lost 59 pounds since January using CICO and I still have people tell me that CICO doesn't work and that it is too much work / not worth it. I've literally had someone tell me they wish they could lose as much weight as I have and asked exactly how I do it and then say, "Oh no, I'm not tracking what I eat. I refuse to do that." after I tell them how I do it. I think of like car maintenance. I know what kind of gas I put in my car and I know how much gas to put in my car--and it has the power to tell the pump to stop feeding it gas. Why shouldn't I know what kind of food I'm putting in my body to help it perform the best and why not know how much food I need to put in my body to have it run properly. My gas pump stopper was broken from decades of being told to clean my plate regardless of if I was hungry or not, so I see tracking calories and using MFP as my gas pump stopper.

I think
A) CICO is really easy if you just stick to it (though that part can be hard for some), to the point that it might be almost too easy. Some people might think it can't work because it can't be that simple
There is nothing sexy about CICO, there is nothing to sell you, and most people feel full while doing it (aside from the first week of doing it I haven't had a night where I've gone to bed hungry). It doesn't really feel like you are working hard to achieve your weight loss.
C) It kind of goes against everything you are taught about diets. Dieting should be no pizza, no burgers, no ice cream, just salmon or a chicken breast, steamed vegetables and plain brown rice. There is no huge sacrifice with CICO. Yes, you can't have pizza every single day but you can have pizza like once a week.

It also sounds like you are under the assumption that CICO is a process or a way to approach weight loss. It isn't. It is just the governing principle of energy balance that guides whether a person loses, maintains, or gains weight according to the amount of calories they burn. It is not a way of eating, it does not mean counting calories. Tracking what you eat is a way to ensure you are in a calorie deficit, but whether you (or anyone else) tracks the calories or not, all human beings are subject to CICO.

I think what you are describing in your post is what I would refer to as flexible dieting, or, if you are actively tracking macros, maybe IIFYM. And again, not disputing the approach you are taking as I think you make a lot of good points, its just that continuing to refer to counting calories or eating all things in moderation while in a calorie deficit as "using CICO" just perpetuates the confusion amongst those who really don't understand.

Yes, I am counting the calories in (CI) and the calories I burn (CO) to lose weight. Once I get to my goal weight I will then still use CICO to maintain my weight but I will adjust the amount of CI to a higher number and possibly adjust CO to a lower number to stay close to the weight I want to be...so I am using the idea behind CICO to advantageously lose weight but it is still CICO. Everything your body does is CICO. I'm just actively looking at my CICO and modifying it. It sounds like OP is doing this as well.

CICO is not true. Sorry. Newer research has proven the theory is flawed. The best explanation of this is from Dr. Fung in his book The Obesity Code. Here are some reference sites on why CICO is flawed.

http://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/theres-no-sugar-coating-it-all-calories-are-not-created-equal-2016110410602

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/16549716.2017.1289650