Starting Strength on calorie deficit?
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Sorry, but how long have you ran Starting Strength for?BusyRaeNOTBusty wrote: »Doing Starting Strength on a calorie deficit is fine. It will build strength and help retain muscle.
You'd probably do just fine with 0.5g of protein per pound of body weight. I think people here over-sell protein a bit.
Why are you a better authority on the program over Coach Rippetoe?
What are your starting and ending poundages based on "0.5g of protein per pound of body weight"?
I think you may mean well but that seems like terrible advice.
Yet, you suggest Stronglifts on a cut, which is a complete ripoff of Starting Strength.2 -
Actually they are both "ripoffs" of Reg Parks' and Bill Starr's works if you want to think of it that way._dracarys_ wrote: »Yet, you suggest Stronglifts, which is a complete ripoff of Starting Strength.
What does that have to do with anything?
Coach Rip and Mehdi both acknowledge they didn't come up with their programs in a vacuum.
I recommended several programs. My first was actually "Bigger Leaner Stronger."
My recommendations were based on his stated goals.
It looks like @BusyRaeNOTBusty actually edited her protein recommendation to make it more reasonable.
Now you edited your post to add "on a cut". That is fine.
I was clear about how that would only get you so far on SL5x5 and again, it was not my first recommendation.1 -
Actually they are both "ripoffs" of Reg Parks' and Bill Starr's works if you want to think of it that way._dracarys_ wrote: »Yet, you suggest Stronglifts, which is a complete ripoff of Starting Strength.
What does that have to do with anything?
Coach Rip and Mehdi both acknowledge they didn't come up with their programs in a vacuum.
I recommended several programs. My first was actually "Bigger Leaner Stronger."
It looks like @BusyRaeNOTBusty actually edited her protein recommendation to make it more reasonable.
Because you said:StrongLifts5x5 might be a bit better also because you start with an empty bar.
You will be able to cut on it in the beginning due to the volume increase.
Then:Sorry, but how long have you ran Starting Strength for?
Why are you a better authority on the program over Coach Rippetoe?
when the above poster said Starting Strength was fine in a deficit. I was just pointing out that they're pretty similar programs to be arguing which should be done on a cut vs. which one should not.0 -
"You will be able to cut on {SL5x5} in the beginning due to the volume increase."_dracarys_ wrote: »when the above poster said Starting Strength was fine in a deficit. I was just pointing out that they're pretty similar programs to be arguing which should be done on a cut vs. which one should not.
There can be a lot of difference, volume and intensity wise, between 25 reps and 15 reps at roughly comparable RMs.
Works sets, not counting warm-ups:
3 sets * 5 reps * 45 lbs = 675 lbs of work
5 sets * 5 reps * 45 lbs = 1125 lbs of work. Almost twice as much. Simple math.
Which will have a higher CO? Therefore which would help you cut faster?
I don't think that should need explaining. Similar programs does not mean identical intensity.
But my point of contention was the original 0.5g of protein that was recommended, not SS vs SL.
She fixed that.1 -
Strength focused lifting programs have been shown to be best for muscle retention during a cut. The OPs goals are fat loss first, strength gain second. Yes Riptoe created his program with strength gain as number one priority which means weight gain will occur. This doesn't mean that the weight routine and progression can't effectively be used in a cut.
I actually prefer Stronglifts because I don't like power cleans. And I still think protein is over hyped.
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I do not disagree with this in principle. I responded to your original 0.5g recommendation.BusyRaeNOTBusty wrote: »Strength focused lifting programs have been shown to be best for muscle retention during a cut. The OPs goals are fat loss first, strength gain second. Yes Riptoe created his program with strength gain as number one priority which means weight gain will occur. This doesn't mean that the weight routine and progression can't effectively be used in a cut.
I actually prefer Stronglifts because I don't like power cleans. And I still think protein is over hyped.
That is just too low for a guy to build muscle efficiently IME, especially one who is not a kid.
0.8g or more I am fine with
I coach fighters. I've put almost every one of them is on a lifting program.
Most are on 5/3/1 but that is a different discussion.2 -
"You will be able to cut on {SL5x5} in the beginning due to the volume increase."_dracarys_ wrote: »when the above poster said Starting Strength was fine in a deficit. I was just pointing out that they're pretty similar programs to be arguing which should be done on a cut vs. which one should not.
There can be a lot of difference, volume and intensity wise, between 25 reps and 15 reps at roughly comparable RMs.
Works sets, not counting warm-ups:
3 sets * 5 reps * 45 lbs = 675 lbs of work
5 sets * 5 reps * 45 lbs = 1125 lbs of work. Almost twice as much. Simple math.
Which will have a higher CO? Therefore which would help you cut faster?
I don't think that should need explaining. Similar programs does not mean identical intensity.
But my point of contention was the original 0.5g of protein that was recommended, not SS vs SL.
She fixed that.
Ah, I see now.
Carry on.1 -
Not sure why I am bothering to defend myself but, my original recommendation of 0.5g was given because I mistakenly thought OP was a 200lb woman (I didn't look at the picture), who would have has a lower percentage of lean body mass. Most things I've read base protein needs on lean body mass, 0.8 to 1 gram per pound of lean body mass. A 200lb woman with 40% body fat, would only need 96g of protein. When you realized OP was a man, I grabbed an article quickly and changed my answer.1
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Fair enough. Yeah, no real need to defend yourself.BusyRaeNOTBusty wrote: »Not sure why I am bothering to defend myself but, my original recommendation of 0.5g was given because I mistakenly thought OP was a 200lb woman (I didn't look at the picture), who would have has a lower percentage of lean body mass. Most things I've read base protein needs on lean body mass, 0.8 to 1 gram per pound of lean body mass. A 200lb woman with 40% body fat, would only need 96g of protein. When you realized OP was a man, I grabbed an article quickly and changed my answer.
But I recommend my women fighters get at least 0.8g as well.
Eat like a man and train like a man. Literally.
Women train against the men in my program so fighting other women is often a piece of cake.
No weight classes when training in my gym either.
Now I want cake.
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OP here...Well here's another thought, it's not like I'm a complete blob right now, I could try starting strength and eat on a small surplus to see what happens. I'm assuming if I eat 200-300 calories over my maintenance I'd put on some weight but not a ton and some would be muscle as well. I'm not completely against the idea of eating more while doing starting strength, I just thought it seemed more appropriate to get down to a lower BF % first.
I've read where you can only put on muscle so quickly, it's generally a pretty slow process. I've also read where a lot of people go nuts with the bulking, like eating 1000 calories over maintenance. No way that's all turning to muscle. I would think maybe 300 calories over maintenance would be reasonable, maybe 1/2 lb a week of weight gain, some of muscle, a little of it fat. Over the course of 3 months that would be around 12lbs. I wouldn't look very fat if I put 12lbs back on right now and a lot of that would ilkely be muscle.
Guess I'm sort of torn as to what direction I should go in. Continue to drop weight, or actually follow the program to the tee and see what happens. No way I'll be ripped in time for summer stuff anyway, summer is already here. I could start the program now, eat a little more, then at some point in the fall or winter start cutting down and by next summer be in awesome shape. I'm just not a huge fan of overeating like crazy and packing on tons of weight if it's not really necessary.1 -
It really depends on your goals, but if you are not happy with your body fat percentage, I wouldn't start eating at a surplus. Maybe drop your deficit to 250 or eat at maintenance?2
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As a guy you should generally cut to around 10% (at least 12%) body fat before trying to bulk.
You bulk to no more than 15% and cut again. That is usually how it is usually done.
Women's numbers are roughly twice that.
So yes, you should "cut" if you think you are over 20%.
The higher your body fat, the more likely you are to put on more fat compared to muscle.
It has to do with insulin in your body.
Your "goals" at this point don't make too much difference.
You need your body fat to be ~15% for most of them to matter, unless your goal is to compete in sumo.
My advice? Definitely do not "bulk" now.
You want any extra calories your body needs to come from fat stores, not food intake.
Stay on a cut at least until you are frequently missing lift targets.
Eat at a deficit to cut.
The 250 that was recommended by @BusyRaeNOTBusty is fine if you want to get a feel for it.
A 250 calorie deficit will average to losing around 1/2 lb every 2 weeks.
Lift with enough intensity and you will make progress.
How much progress and for how long depends on a lot of factors, including recovery, diet, and lifting program.
You could eat at maintenance but the fat loss may seem very slow.
People refer to this as a "recomp" -recomposition- some love it, others hate it.
In the beginning you can do a lot of things wrong and still make decent progress so don't fixate on the little details too much, ie. "Don't major in the minors."
My recommendations on intensity and volume stand but you can certainly make gains on SS for a while so just pick something and stick to it for at least 12 weeks.
Then check your progress and make adjustments.
More reps and sets means somewhat lighter weights and perhaps a longer opportunity for smaller gains. The workouts may be longer, you might look slightly more muscular, but not be quite as strong.
Less reps and sets means somewhat heavier weights and perhaps a shorter opportunity for larger gains. The workouts may be shorter, you might look slightly less "buff", but be somewhat stronger.
Starting Strength, StrongLifts5x5... it all averages out and won't matter much in a year or two.
Some people respond better to certain set and rep schemes than others. It is trial and error.
The program you grow on this year may need to be totally different next year.
If you want to continue "bulking" past 15% [after getting down to 10% or 12%] then that is your call.
Strong guys may refer to this as "perma-bulking", bodybuilders may call it "getting fat." YMMV.
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Nice summary, thanks! I'm definitely over 20% bodyfat, so it sounds like I should probably continue dropping the fat.
I've been eating at a 500 calorie deficit since late May and my clothes are already fitting better. I went down one belt loop already and many of my shirts that were a bit tight before now fit great. I don't have any hunger issues either. My TDEE is supposedly around 2800 calories so I've been aiming for 2200-2400 calories a day. I don't weigh my food or anything so I doubt it's super accurate, but it seems to be working as my clothes are all fitting better. I've been hitting around 140-160g of protein per day. Not sure on fats and carbs. I've also gone up on several of my lifts with the dumbbells (dumbbell press, flys, lateral raise, front raise, preacher curl, etc). This is probably due to me not lifting for a little while and just getting back into it though.
Sounds like I should just continue to drop the pounds, give the SS program a shot, see how far I can get, and then take it from there.2 -
Yep, if it is working then keep at it.1
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A little late to this discussion, but you might want to consider a program designed to be run on a cut. AllPro is designed to run until you're 13% BF. I believe Fierce5 is also designed to be run on a cut.1
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Just an update, starting on week 2 of SS. Last week I found that eating 2500 calories was not enough. I was sore for quite a while and feeling pretty tired. I started going to bed an hour earlier (getting 7-8 hours of sleep now instead of 6-7) and I started eating around 3200 calories which is supposedly my maintenance according to a few calorie calculators that take into account your activity level (I used 3-5hrs of moderate activity). Now I'm not as sore and not as tired.
The squats are really tough! I've never done squats before in my life with a barbell, so I started off pretty light so I could get used to them, work on my form, and not kill myself haha! I made three 10lb jumps and will now be leveling off to 5lb jumps each workout.
The deadlift I actually enjoy. It's cool to see how much weight you can pull up off the ground. I've found that if I watch form videos before I do it each time, I keep my form much better and I have no problems. I can definitely feel my lower back afterwards, but it's a good kind of sore, muscle soreness, not spinal or joint soreness.
I'm decent at the bench press as I've always worked on my chest over the years, so that one I was able to start out a bit higher than the other lifts.
The overhead press I'm still trying to figure out what I want to do with that one. I can't do them in my basement because it's 82" tall and I'd put the bar through the drop ceiling. Even in other parts of the basement between the rafters would not really work. I did them sitting down last time, but I know that's not the same. I'm thinking of taking the bar and some weights outside and doing them in the backyard. I'm starting off pretty light so that should be manageable for a while until the weights get heavier.
Haven't yet hit the power clean phase yet. That's not until next month. I'll have to learn how to do those. I plan on starting out very light on those as well.
I'd have to say that the squats are my least favorite exercise, and of course they are the one you do the most! My lower body is pretty weak, but it's already starting to respond pretty good. The key is focusing on your form so you don't mess up your back. I've found that I need to focus on keeping my heels dug in and not lift them up and lean forward. When I do that and press straight up with my hips it's much easier on my legs.
Anyway, from my short experience so far, doing SS on a calorie deficit is possible, but not ideal. I'm not a huge blimp, but ideally would probably like to shed 15-20lbs at some point, but I can eat at maintenance or slightly over for 3 months or so while I'm doing the SS program and then see how things look and adjust from there.
It is fun to do though going up on the weights each time. I went up on my squats 10lbs from last time and last time I thought it was tough. But I was able to get through them regardless. Hopefully I can keep that up for 2-3 months without stalling. But eating enough and resting enough is definitely key, just like Mark says repeatedly over and over in his book. He's not kidding, it really is a tough and demanding program!4 -
Curious cdahl if you like the program. I've been pretty much on a Starting Strength program (with my own twists) for over a year and love it. There is nothing like the feeling of hitting a personal best at squat or deadlift, especially over 45. Good luck.1
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I have lost 41lbs since I started. I began doing Starting Strength about 2 months in. I have run either SS or a more powerlifting program based on SS for about 3 months. I have seen pretty amazing gains on my deadlift (65-380 for reps) and squat (45-315 for reps). My bench is lagging but still with decent gains (45-175 for reps).
I have eaten in a deficit the entire time. I was morbidly obese to start with and now am getting close to overweight. I am eating 40% of my calories in protein and at a loss rate of 2lbs a week. I can still maintain this as still in obese range. Once I hit overweight range going to cut deficit to 1lbs loss a week. When I don't eat enough protein recovery is harder and longer and that is a concern of mine. 40% seems to be around sweet spot for me. I don't know if this follows any study just what works for me.
Oh and I am 45 and haven't been in close to normal weight range in 15 years.1 -
billkansas wrote: »Curious cdahl if you like the program. I've been pretty much on a Starting Strength program (with my own twists) for over a year and love it. There is nothing like the feeling of hitting a personal best at squat or deadlift, especially over 45. Good luck.
I'm still doing the program, to some degree anyway. I had to take a week or so off after going hard for 2 months as my lower body was wiped out. Had lots of joint pain and hip abductor pain from all the squats. Took a little time off, then went back with light weights, and now I'm back at it doing heavier weights again with no hip pain at all. My body just needed some time to heal up I guess.
I'm still not lifting all that impressive of weights yet, but I've made a lot of progress since I started. My squat and deadlift both went up 120lbs and my bench and overhead press both went up around 50-55lbs.
My legs and lower body seem to get pretty beat up from all the squatting, so I think I'm going to start doing a light squat day on Wednesdays and just make 10lb jumps each week (5lbs on Mon and Fri). It's not the program, but I don't care, I'm not going to beat myself up too much. I'm in no rush, if it takes me a little longer to reach some of my target goals that's fine. I'd rather take longer and get their injury free than push myself too hard and end up with an injured hip or lower back, etc.
I really like the program in that it's very simple, yet very effective. I haven't put on a ton of size, but I have put on some, and it's noticeable. I plan to stick with it through the fall and then start trying to lose some fat over the winter. I'll try to continue to go up on the weights, but more than likely at some point being on a deficit I'll likely stall, at which point I will at a minimum try to just maintain where I'm at at that point.
Glad the program is working well for you. Good luck!1
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