Dairy???
Replies
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It makes zero sense to consume another animals milk, and animal milk based products. The reason that so many people are "lactose intolerant" is because we're not supposed to be eating that stuff. The only beneficial part of dairy is the high protein content and you can get that from meat, nuts, beans, seeds and even leafy greens.
Evolution has taught us to be adaptable and thrive on a variety of foods.
Milk is no different than any other food that we learned to cultivate and thrive on.7 -
I love all dairy products. Big part of my everyday diet. If you like it, make it work in your calories, and don't have an allergy, then go for it. If you don't like them, don't consume them.0
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Nonfat milk, nonfat yogurt, and nonfat cottage cheese are a regular part of my menu. I also use other kinds of cheese in small amounts for flavoring. They taste good to me and are a pretty good source of protein. So overall I'd say they're helpful for me.
Obviously if you're allergic to dairy or can't tolerate it, don't eat or drink it. I think people who are opposed to anyone drinking milk basically feel that way for philosophical or moral reasons, and that often influences the food they recommend.1 -
It makes zero sense to consume another animals milk, and animal milk based products. The reason that so many people are "lactose intolerant" is because we're not supposed to be eating that stuff. The only beneficial part of dairy is the high protein content and you can get that from meat, nuts, beans, seeds and even leafy greens.
But it makes sense to eat the flesh from another animal?? I find it odd that someone would oppose dairy while endorsing meat of all things.
Dairy is delicious. I could cut just about anything from my diet and never think about it again. But dairy? No way. Cheese and milk are pretty much the only things that make eating worthwhile!9 -
cwolfman13 wrote: »It makes zero sense to consume another animals milk, and animal milk based products. The reason that so many people are "lactose intolerant" is because we're not supposed to be eating that stuff. The only beneficial part of dairy is the high protein content and you can get that from meat, nuts, beans, seeds and even leafy greens.
Are we not supposed to eat nuts? Cuz I know a whole lot more people with nut allergies than I do with lactose intolerance.
People who are lactose intolerant are the exception...not the other way around.
According to the NIH,
https://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/condition/lactose-intolerance#statisticsApproximately 65 percent of the human population has a reduced ability to digest lactose after infancy.
Not that I think that's any reason for those with the genetic good fortune to continue producing lactase as adults not to eat it.0 -
It makes zero sense to consume another animals milk, and animal milk based products. The reason that so many people are "lactose intolerant" is because we're not supposed to be eating that stuff. The only beneficial part of dairy is the high protein content and you can get that from meat, nuts, beans, seeds and even leafy greens.
Sorry have to call you out on that. Supposed is not objective term. As mentioned earlier in the thread. Northern Europeans specifically (others too) have the genes to digest lactose in a great way. They produce an enzyme called lactase that does the trick. Lactose intolerant people will produce either less of it (and can digest fermetend dairy foods) or not and cannot eat diary.
If you state not supposed to you basically say that the body is wrong for producing an enzyme that allows us to eat something that is a great food source and has helped many a population to survive.
Plus we are not just talking cows dairy Around the world also milk and milk products are produced from goat, sheet, buffalo, yak, camel and horse milk (lama I think as well but not sure)
As a comment on your list of protein
If you then say but but some people can't because they are intolerant then my answer would be - you are not suppoed to heat grains then either because there are celiacs that are in fact gluten intolerant. Same for nuts because there are people with allergies. So not suppoed to is complete and utter nonsense! Specifically as you so totally recommend foods that are also limited for some people
For just about every foodstuff there will be people that have either problems digesting and or intolerances
OP: if you feel you want to eat and can handle is try it. Like any food there is a part can you and a part do you like it. Specifically with cheeses and yogurt there is so much to choose from that it is a feast to try if that is what you like.
I could not live without diary. My preferences are cheese and yoghurt. I have to limit cheese intake mainly because the cheeses I love best (blue soft) are also high calorie. But it is one of my go to treats5 -
We are mammals - does it really make sense that milk and milk products are bad for us?6
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lynn_glenmont wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »It makes zero sense to consume another animals milk, and animal milk based products. The reason that so many people are "lactose intolerant" is because we're not supposed to be eating that stuff. The only beneficial part of dairy is the high protein content and you can get that from meat, nuts, beans, seeds and even leafy greens.
Are we not supposed to eat nuts? Cuz I know a whole lot more people with nut allergies than I do with lactose intolerance.
People who are lactose intolerant are the exception...not the other way around.
According to the NIH,
https://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/condition/lactose-intolerance#statisticsApproximately 65 percent of the human population has a reduced ability to digest lactose after infancy.
Not that I think that's any reason for those with the genetic good fortune to continue producing lactase as adults not to eat it.
Most of whom are living in Asia and Africa. Europe, North America and Australia (Which I'd assume make up most of MFP), has up to 90% and more who are not intolerant.4 -
stevencloser wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »It makes zero sense to consume another animals milk, and animal milk based products. The reason that so many people are "lactose intolerant" is because we're not supposed to be eating that stuff. The only beneficial part of dairy is the high protein content and you can get that from meat, nuts, beans, seeds and even leafy greens.
Are we not supposed to eat nuts? Cuz I know a whole lot more people with nut allergies than I do with lactose intolerance.
People who are lactose intolerant are the exception...not the other way around.
According to the NIH,
https://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/condition/lactose-intolerance#statisticsApproximately 65 percent of the human population has a reduced ability to digest lactose after infancy.
Not that I think that's any reason for those with the genetic good fortune to continue producing lactase as adults not to eat it.
Most of whom are living in Asia and Africa. Europe, North America and Australia (Which I'd assume make up most of MFP), has up to 90% and more who are not intolerant.
No kidding. It says right on the linked page "The prevalence of lactose intolerance is lowest in populations with a long history of dependence on unfermented milk products as an important food source. For example, only about 5 percent of people of Northern European descent are lactose intolerant."1 -
Nonfat milk is an efficient way to meet calcium requirements and a nice amount of protein and potassium. I don't want to give it up!1
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It makes zero sense to consume another animals milk, and animal milk based products. The reason that so many people are "lactose intolerant" is because we're not supposed to be eating that stuff. The only beneficial part of dairy is the high protein content and you can get that from meat, nuts, beans, seeds and even leafy greens.
so you mean the last 10,000 years of consuming milk has all been for not?
why is it OK to consume another animals meat, but not their milk???1 -
It makes zero sense to consume another animals milk, and animal milk based products. The reason that so many people are "lactose intolerant" is because we're not supposed to be eating that stuff. The only beneficial part of dairy is the high protein content and you can get that from meat, nuts, beans, seeds and even leafy greens.
so you mean the last 10,000 years of consuming milk has all been for not?
why is it OK to consume another animals meat, but not their milk???
I think she forgot to add to her post "in my opinion".2 -
lynn_glenmont wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »It makes zero sense to consume another animals milk, and animal milk based products. The reason that so many people are "lactose intolerant" is because we're not supposed to be eating that stuff. The only beneficial part of dairy is the high protein content and you can get that from meat, nuts, beans, seeds and even leafy greens.
Are we not supposed to eat nuts? Cuz I know a whole lot more people with nut allergies than I do with lactose intolerance.
People who are lactose intolerant are the exception...not the other way around.
According to the NIH,
https://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/condition/lactose-intolerance#statisticsApproximately 65 percent of the human population has a reduced ability to digest lactose after infancy.
Not that I think that's any reason for those with the genetic good fortune to continue producing lactase as adults not to eat it.
I was speaking more locally...I live in the U.S. and being lactose intolerant would be the exception...most people aren't.
Taking the world population, sure...many Asians and Africans are intolerant due to the ability to digest lactose evolved in Europe about 7,500 years ago.
Among the European, North American, and Australian populations, the vast majority do just fine with dairy.1 -
I like dairy products and I consume them every day. Usually in the form of full fat yogurt mixed with raw unsweetened coconut. I also like and consume cheese. Full fat and I don't blot the oil.1
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musicfan68 wrote: »It makes zero sense to consume another animals milk, and animal milk based products. The reason that so many people are "lactose intolerant" is because we're not supposed to be eating that stuff. The only beneficial part of dairy is the high protein content and you can get that from meat, nuts, beans, seeds and even leafy greens.
so you mean the last 10,000 years of consuming milk has all been for not?
why is it OK to consume another animals meat, but not their milk???
I think she forgot to add to her post "in my opinion".
I don't think she realizes that that's all it is.2 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »It makes zero sense to consume another animals milk, and animal milk based products.
Makes sense to me (and my ancestors who passed on the genes that make it easy to digest for me, just like AnnPT says above).The reason that so many people are "lactose intolerant" is because we're not supposed to be eating that stuff.
No, it's because (for the most part) at least some of their ancestors come from areas of the world where there was no need or custom to consume it regularly, so fewer people developed the ability to do so. IMO, that's unfortunate for them, but says nothing about what people in general are "supposed to" be doing.
It seems that a good number of people find it biologically easy to consume whatever food is available even to the point of becoming overweight or obese. Does that mean we are "supposed to" do that and it makes no sense to use our minds to figure out how to stay slim? Of course not!The only beneficial part of dairy is the high protein content and you can get that from meat, nuts, beans, seeds and even leafy greens.
Also, it tastes good.
Eating dairy (and red meat) has been linked to heart disease, diabetes and some types of cancer. Humans are, to my knowlage, the only animals who consistently give themselves diseases because of what they eat.
If your ancestors were meant to eat dairy, they wouldnt have needed to develop the ability to eat it in the first place. They were eating nothing but fruits, vegetables and small amounts of meat WAY before they started domesticating animals.2 -
WendyLeigh1119 wrote: »It makes zero sense to consume another animals milk, and animal milk based products. The reason that so many people are "lactose intolerant" is because we're not supposed to be eating that stuff. The only beneficial part of dairy is the high protein content and you can get that from meat, nuts, beans, seeds and even leafy greens.
But it makes sense to eat the flesh from another animal?? I find it odd that someone would oppose dairy while endorsing meat of all things.
Dairy is delicious. I could cut just about anything from my diet and never think about it again. But dairy? No way. Cheese and milk are pretty much the only things that make eating worthwhile!
It does make sense to eat small amounts of meat, as we can see in many other species of animals in the world. While humans are the only ones who consume another animals milk. I'm not sure why people get so confused about that.
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lemurcat12 wrote: »It makes zero sense to consume another animals milk, and animal milk based products.
Makes sense to me (and my ancestors who passed on the genes that make it easy to digest for me, just like AnnPT says above).The reason that so many people are "lactose intolerant" is because we're not supposed to be eating that stuff.
No, it's because (for the most part) at least some of their ancestors come from areas of the world where there was no need or custom to consume it regularly, so fewer people developed the ability to do so. IMO, that's unfortunate for them, but says nothing about what people in general are "supposed to" be doing.
It seems that a good number of people find it biologically easy to consume whatever food is available even to the point of becoming overweight or obese. Does that mean we are "supposed to" do that and it makes no sense to use our minds to figure out how to stay slim? Of course not!The only beneficial part of dairy is the high protein content and you can get that from meat, nuts, beans, seeds and even leafy greens.
Also, it tastes good.
Eating dairy (and red meat) has been linked to heart disease, diabetes and some types of cancer. Humans are, to my knowlage, the only animals who consistently give themselves diseases because of what they eat.
If your ancestors were meant to eat dairy, they wouldnt have needed to develop the ability to eat it in the first place. They were eating nothing but fruits, vegetables and small amounts of meat WAY before they started domesticating animals.
but you previously said that one should eat meat to get protein, but now you are saying meat causes cancer and other illness..? So confusing..
The studies that you are referencing are causational meaning that they studies obese people who have a higher rate of illness, because obesity, and then found that they also eat red meat, so maybe it is their red meat that is causing the illness. OR, maybe it is just that fact that obese people don't eat well and don't get enough exercise/activity...
so we stopped evolving/developing 10,000 years ago? i did not know that was the end point of human evolution...7 -
WendyLeigh1119 wrote: »It makes zero sense to consume another animals milk, and animal milk based products. The reason that so many people are "lactose intolerant" is because we're not supposed to be eating that stuff. The only beneficial part of dairy is the high protein content and you can get that from meat, nuts, beans, seeds and even leafy greens.
But it makes sense to eat the flesh from another animal?? I find it odd that someone would oppose dairy while endorsing meat of all things.
Dairy is delicious. I could cut just about anything from my diet and never think about it again. But dairy? No way. Cheese and milk are pretty much the only things that make eating worthwhile!
It does make sense to eat small amounts of meat, as we can see in many other species of animals in the world. While humans are the only ones who consume another animals milk. I'm not sure why people get so confused about that.
we are also the only species that talks, has cognitive thought, drives cars, etc, etc....8 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »It makes zero sense to consume another animals milk, and animal milk based products.
Makes sense to me (and my ancestors who passed on the genes that make it easy to digest for me, just like AnnPT says above).The reason that so many people are "lactose intolerant" is because we're not supposed to be eating that stuff.
No, it's because (for the most part) at least some of their ancestors come from areas of the world where there was no need or custom to consume it regularly, so fewer people developed the ability to do so. IMO, that's unfortunate for them, but says nothing about what people in general are "supposed to" be doing.
It seems that a good number of people find it biologically easy to consume whatever food is available even to the point of becoming overweight or obese. Does that mean we are "supposed to" do that and it makes no sense to use our minds to figure out how to stay slim? Of course not!The only beneficial part of dairy is the high protein content and you can get that from meat, nuts, beans, seeds and even leafy greens.
Also, it tastes good.
Eating dairy (and red meat) has been linked to heart disease, diabetes and some types of cancer. Humans are, to my knowlage, the only animals who consistently give themselves diseases because of what they eat.
If your ancestors were meant to eat dairy, they wouldnt have needed to develop the ability to eat it in the first place. They were eating nothing but fruits, vegetables and small amounts of meat WAY before they started domesticating animals.
The "links" are typically coming from causation studies which tend to neglect other aspect of one's diet...they're typically done with individuals eating the SAD which is pretty low on many nutrients due in large part to a lack of fruit and veg.
When can consume meat and dairy without issue in the context of a healthy and varied diet that includes plenty of fruit and veg, legumes, etc...
Diabetes is typically caused by over-consumption of food in general and being over weight. People also don't move enough. If these diseases were actually caused by eating meat and dairy then these diseases would have been much more prevalent in the past, and they weren't.2 -
purplepadres wrote: »If your body tolerates it and it fits within your calorie goals, go for it. As I've gotten older, my body has decided to not tolerate it, and I miss it horribly.
Hey Purplepadres, have you tried goat's milk? It has a slightly different molecular setup (I'm not a scientist, nor do I play one on TV, so don't ask for a lot of details), so lactose intolerant people can often tolerate it. I like to down an 8 oz glass before be sometimes - I notice the next day that I'm not near as achy - and I don't get as many muscle cramps. And the calcium will do you good!1 -
lynn_glenmont wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »It makes zero sense to consume another animals milk, and animal milk based products. The reason that so many people are "lactose intolerant" is because we're not supposed to be eating that stuff. The only beneficial part of dairy is the high protein content and you can get that from meat, nuts, beans, seeds and even leafy greens.
Are we not supposed to eat nuts? Cuz I know a whole lot more people with nut allergies than I do with lactose intolerance.
People who are lactose intolerant are the exception...not the other way around.
According to the NIH,
https://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/condition/lactose-intolerance#statisticsApproximately 65 percent of the human population has a reduced ability to digest lactose after infancy.
Not that I think that's any reason for those with the genetic good fortune to continue producing lactase as adults not to eat it.
That is because of the Chinese and East Asia. Take them out of the equation and the VAST majority of people can tolerate lactose just fine.
My wife is Chinese - loves milk but it has... an, uh... effect on her.
I'm half Korean and I drink about a half gallon a day with no problems.2 -
dutchandkiwi wrote: »It makes zero sense to consume another animals milk, and animal milk based products. The reason that so many people are "lactose intolerant" is because we're not supposed to be eating that stuff. The only beneficial part of dairy is the high protein content and you can get that from meat, nuts, beans, seeds and even leafy greens.
Sorry have to call you out on that. Supposed is not objective term. As mentioned earlier in the thread. Northern Europeans specifically (others too) have the genes to digest lactose in a great way. They produce an enzyme called lactase that does the trick. Lactose intolerant people will produce either less of it (and can digest fermetend dairy foods) or not and cannot eat diary.
If you state not supposed to you basically say that the body is wrong for producing an enzyme that allows us to eat something that is a great food source and has helped many a population to survive.
Plus we are not just talking cows dairy Around the world also milk and milk products are produced from goat, sheet, buffalo, yak, camel and horse milk (lama I think as well but not sure)
As a comment on your list of protein
If you then say but but some people can't because they are intolerant then my answer would be - you are not suppoed to heat grains then either because there are celiacs that are in fact gluten intolerant. Same for nuts because there are people with allergies. So not suppoed to is complete and utter nonsense! Specifically as you so totally recommend foods that are also limited for some people
For just about every foodstuff there will be people that have either problems digesting and or intolerances
OP: if you feel you want to eat and can handle is try it. Like any food there is a part can you and a part do you like it. Specifically with cheeses and yogurt there is so much to choose from that it is a feast to try if that is what you like.
I could not live without diary. My preferences are cheese and yoghurt. I have to limit cheese intake mainly because the cheeses I love best (blue soft) are also high calorie. But it is one of my go to treats
Yes, people have adapted to digesting dairy, but they haven't adapted to eating it without other consequences to their health. Health goes beyond just being able go digest something. There aren't any long term positive effects on health from dairy, but there are many negative ones. To answer the thing about nut allergies and grains: maybe humans shouldn't eat those as well. Plenty of people already think gluten free is the way to go as it is. I think those should be left up to the individual though, as I haven't seen much research on how nuts negatively affect ones overall, longterm health the way that dairy does.0 -
dutchandkiwi wrote: »It makes zero sense to consume another animals milk, and animal milk based products. The reason that so many people are "lactose intolerant" is because we're not supposed to be eating that stuff. The only beneficial part of dairy is the high protein content and you can get that from meat, nuts, beans, seeds and even leafy greens.
Sorry have to call you out on that. Supposed is not objective term. As mentioned earlier in the thread. Northern Europeans specifically (others too) have the genes to digest lactose in a great way. They produce an enzyme called lactase that does the trick. Lactose intolerant people will produce either less of it (and can digest fermetend dairy foods) or not and cannot eat diary.
If you state not supposed to you basically say that the body is wrong for producing an enzyme that allows us to eat something that is a great food source and has helped many a population to survive.
Plus we are not just talking cows dairy Around the world also milk and milk products are produced from goat, sheet, buffalo, yak, camel and horse milk (lama I think as well but not sure)
As a comment on your list of protein
If you then say but but some people can't because they are intolerant then my answer would be - you are not suppoed to heat grains then either because there are celiacs that are in fact gluten intolerant. Same for nuts because there are people with allergies. So not suppoed to is complete and utter nonsense! Specifically as you so totally recommend foods that are also limited for some people
For just about every foodstuff there will be people that have either problems digesting and or intolerances
OP: if you feel you want to eat and can handle is try it. Like any food there is a part can you and a part do you like it. Specifically with cheeses and yogurt there is so much to choose from that it is a feast to try if that is what you like.
I could not live without diary. My preferences are cheese and yoghurt. I have to limit cheese intake mainly because the cheeses I love best (blue soft) are also high calorie. But it is one of my go to treats
Yes, people have adapted to digesting dairy, but they haven't adapted to eating it without other consequences to their health. Health goes beyond just being able go digest something. There aren't any long term positive effects on health from dairy, but there are many negative ones. To answer the thing about nut allergies and grains: maybe humans shouldn't eat those as well. Plenty of people already think gluten free is the way to go as it is. I think those should be left up to the individual though, as I haven't seen much research on how nuts negatively affect ones overall, longterm health the way that dairy does.
please post studies showing a direct link between dairy and ill health ..and not just ones based on causation ..
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where is the woo button?11
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dutchandkiwi wrote: »It makes zero sense to consume another animals milk, and animal milk based products. The reason that so many people are "lactose intolerant" is because we're not supposed to be eating that stuff. The only beneficial part of dairy is the high protein content and you can get that from meat, nuts, beans, seeds and even leafy greens.
Sorry have to call you out on that. Supposed is not objective term. As mentioned earlier in the thread. Northern Europeans specifically (others too) have the genes to digest lactose in a great way. They produce an enzyme called lactase that does the trick. Lactose intolerant people will produce either less of it (and can digest fermetend dairy foods) or not and cannot eat diary.
If you state not supposed to you basically say that the body is wrong for producing an enzyme that allows us to eat something that is a great food source and has helped many a population to survive.
Plus we are not just talking cows dairy Around the world also milk and milk products are produced from goat, sheet, buffalo, yak, camel and horse milk (lama I think as well but not sure)
As a comment on your list of protein
If you then say but but some people can't because they are intolerant then my answer would be - you are not suppoed to heat grains then either because there are celiacs that are in fact gluten intolerant. Same for nuts because there are people with allergies. So not suppoed to is complete and utter nonsense! Specifically as you so totally recommend foods that are also limited for some people
For just about every foodstuff there will be people that have either problems digesting and or intolerances
OP: if you feel you want to eat and can handle is try it. Like any food there is a part can you and a part do you like it. Specifically with cheeses and yogurt there is so much to choose from that it is a feast to try if that is what you like.
I could not live without diary. My preferences are cheese and yoghurt. I have to limit cheese intake mainly because the cheeses I love best (blue soft) are also high calorie. But it is one of my go to treats
Yes, people have adapted to digesting dairy, but they haven't adapted to eating it without other consequences to their health. Health goes beyond just being able go digest something. There aren't any long term positive effects on health from dairy, but there are many negative ones. To answer the thing about nut allergies and grains: maybe humans shouldn't eat those as well. Plenty of people already think gluten free is the way to go as it is. I think those should be left up to the individual though, as I haven't seen much research on how nuts negatively affect ones overall, longterm health the way that dairy does.
Bull...10 -
Anyone else find it... ironic? ... that the person saying how bad dairy is...
wait for it...
...consumes dairy every day?10 -
dutchandkiwi wrote: »It makes zero sense to consume another animals milk, and animal milk based products. The reason that so many people are "lactose intolerant" is because we're not supposed to be eating that stuff. The only beneficial part of dairy is the high protein content and you can get that from meat, nuts, beans, seeds and even leafy greens.
Sorry have to call you out on that. Supposed is not objective term. As mentioned earlier in the thread. Northern Europeans specifically (others too) have the genes to digest lactose in a great way. They produce an enzyme called lactase that does the trick. Lactose intolerant people will produce either less of it (and can digest fermetend dairy foods) or not and cannot eat diary.
If you state not supposed to you basically say that the body is wrong for producing an enzyme that allows us to eat something that is a great food source and has helped many a population to survive.
Plus we are not just talking cows dairy Around the world also milk and milk products are produced from goat, sheet, buffalo, yak, camel and horse milk (lama I think as well but not sure)
As a comment on your list of protein
If you then say but but some people can't because they are intolerant then my answer would be - you are not suppoed to heat grains then either because there are celiacs that are in fact gluten intolerant. Same for nuts because there are people with allergies. So not suppoed to is complete and utter nonsense! Specifically as you so totally recommend foods that are also limited for some people
For just about every foodstuff there will be people that have either problems digesting and or intolerances
OP: if you feel you want to eat and can handle is try it. Like any food there is a part can you and a part do you like it. Specifically with cheeses and yogurt there is so much to choose from that it is a feast to try if that is what you like.
I could not live without diary. My preferences are cheese and yoghurt. I have to limit cheese intake mainly because the cheeses I love best (blue soft) are also high calorie. But it is one of my go to treats
Yes, people have adapted to digesting dairy, but they haven't adapted to eating it without other consequences to their health. Health goes beyond just being able go digest something. There aren't any long term positive effects on health from dairy, but there are many negative ones. To answer the thing about nut allergies and grains: maybe humans shouldn't eat those as well. Plenty of people already think gluten free is the way to go as it is. I think those should be left up to the individual though, as I haven't seen much research on how nuts negatively affect ones overall, longterm health the way that dairy does.
How can you possibly determine that there are no long term positive effects on health from consuming dairy products? If someone is in good health because they're meeting their dietary needs for, say, protein and calcium and dairy is a part of the diet that does that, how is that not a positive for their health?
Are you really arguing that humans should give up dairy AND nuts AND grains? Some people are allergic to strawberries. Does that mean everyone should give up fruit? If you follow this logic, your diet is going to shrink down to nothing.6 -
jseams1234 wrote: »where is the woo button?
Coming soon...4 -
This discussion has been closed.
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