Dairy???
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janejellyroll wrote: »
IDK - they might. I mean, some of this falls into "you can't make this stuff up" territory.3 -
cwolfman13 wrote: »
Makes @kissa714 look pretty hypocritical, really. If you are going to say that something is so bad for you, then you probably shouldn't be eating it, otherwise your argument is pointless. (Hers is pointless anyway, but...)6 -
lynn_glenmont wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »It makes zero sense to consume another animals milk, and animal milk based products. The reason that so many people are "lactose intolerant" is because we're not supposed to be eating that stuff. The only beneficial part of dairy is the high protein content and you can get that from meat, nuts, beans, seeds and even leafy greens.
Are we not supposed to eat nuts? Cuz I know a whole lot more people with nut allergies than I do with lactose intolerance.
People who are lactose intolerant are the exception...not the other way around.
According to the NIH,
https://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/condition/lactose-intolerance#statisticsApproximately 65 percent of the human population has a reduced ability to digest lactose after infancy.
Not that I think that's any reason for those with the genetic good fortune to continue producing lactase as adults not to eat it.
Probably need to hightlight this from the NIH article posted.
Approximately 65 percent of the human population has a reduced ability to digest lactose after infancy. Lactose intolerance in adulthood is most prevalent in people of East Asian descent, affecting more than 90 percent of adults in some of these communities. Lactose intolerance is also very common in people of West African, Arab, Jewish, Greek, and Italian descent.
The prevalence of lactose intolerance is lowest in populations with a long history of dependence on unfermented milk products as an important food source. For example, only about 5 percent of people of Northern European descent are lactose intolerant
The 65% that are lactose intolerant covers a relatively small portion of the MFP users. From this site:
https://www.foodbeast.com/news/map-of-milk-consumption-lactose-intolerance-around-the-world/
It turns out that over 90% of China's population is allergic to lactose, which might explain it's low consumption. ... Back over in the US, lactose intolerance varies by race with about 74% of African Americans, 87% of Indians and 14% of Caucasians with some kind of lactose allergy.
So in the US and Western Europe we're probably talking around 20-30% of the adult population being lactose intolerant.2 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »It makes zero sense to consume another animals milk, and animal milk based products.
Makes sense to me (and my ancestors who passed on the genes that make it easy to digest for me, just like AnnPT says above).The reason that so many people are "lactose intolerant" is because we're not supposed to be eating that stuff.
No, it's because (for the most part) at least some of their ancestors come from areas of the world where there was no need or custom to consume it regularly, so fewer people developed the ability to do so. IMO, that's unfortunate for them, but says nothing about what people in general are "supposed to" be doing.
It seems that a good number of people find it biologically easy to consume whatever food is available even to the point of becoming overweight or obese. Does that mean we are "supposed to" do that and it makes no sense to use our minds to figure out how to stay slim? Of course not!The only beneficial part of dairy is the high protein content and you can get that from meat, nuts, beans, seeds and even leafy greens.
Also, it tastes good.
Eating dairy (and red meat) has been linked to heart disease, diabetes and some types of cancer. Humans are, to my knowlage, the only animals who consistently give themselves diseases because of what they eat.
If your ancestors were meant to eat dairy, they wouldnt have needed to develop the ability to eat it in the first place. They were eating nothing but fruits, vegetables and small amounts of meat WAY before they started domesticating animals.
people were eating meat and probably drinking animal milk since the beginning of time. in some parts of the world they even drink camel milk, some drink goats,others drink horse milk(although its harder to milk a horse compared to a cow). you dont give yourself diseases by eating certain things, some things are genetic and are flaws in your DNA. some animals probably have been domesticated since the beginning of time. I mean someone had to get the idea to get milk from a mammal and try it for themselves. it had to come from somewhere. and as for those who are lactose intolerance again they lack an enzyme in their body to digest it. it has nothing to do with what you eat that causes it.0 -
musicfan68 wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »
Makes @kissa714 look pretty hypocritical, really. If you are going to say that something is so bad for you, then you probably shouldn't be eating it, otherwise your argument is pointless. (Hers is pointless anyway, but...)
Come on, Ben and Jerry's doesn't have any dairy in it. SMH.
FYI for @kissa714 following are the ingredients in B&J Fudge Brownie Ice Cream as an example
http://www.benjerry.com/flavors/chocolate-fudge-brownie-ice-cream
CREAM, LIQUID SUGAR (SUGAR, WATER), SKIM MILK, WATER, SUGAR, COCOA (PROCESSED WITH ALKALI), WHEAT FLOUR, COCOA POWDER, SOYBEAN OIL, EGG YOLKS, INVERT CANE SUGAR, EGGS, EGG WHITES, GUAR GUM, SALT, CARRAGEENAN, VANILLA EXTRACT, MALTED BARLEY FLOUR, SODIUM BICARBONATE.
Not sure where @kissa714 is from, but in the US ingredients in a food product are listed in the order of highest content to least.1 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »It makes zero sense to consume another animals milk, and animal milk based products.
Makes sense to me (and my ancestors who passed on the genes that make it easy to digest for me, just like AnnPT says above).The reason that so many people are "lactose intolerant" is because we're not supposed to be eating that stuff.
No, it's because (for the most part) at least some of their ancestors come from areas of the world where there was no need or custom to consume it regularly, so fewer people developed the ability to do so. IMO, that's unfortunate for them, but says nothing about what people in general are "supposed to" be doing.
It seems that a good number of people find it biologically easy to consume whatever food is available even to the point of becoming overweight or obese. Does that mean we are "supposed to" do that and it makes no sense to use our minds to figure out how to stay slim? Of course not!The only beneficial part of dairy is the high protein content and you can get that from meat, nuts, beans, seeds and even leafy greens.
Also, it tastes good.
Eating dairy (and red meat) has been linked to heart disease, diabetes and some types of cancer.
What studies do you think convincingly suggest that eating moderate amounts of dairy cause cancer? I'm only aware of correlation studies even for meat, and the evidence on dairy on the whole is not negative in those same studies. Surely you aren't talking about the Campbell stuff?If your ancestors were meant to eat dairy, they wouldnt have needed to develop the ability to eat it in the first place. They were eating nothing but fruits, vegetables and small amounts of meat WAY before they started domesticating animals.
How does one define what one is MEANT to eat? As we were talking about in another thread, that seems to presume a designer with intent, so let's get that out on the table, okay?
Why is what humans ate, I dunno, 100,000 years ago, relevant and not what we ate 5000 years ago or, say, what we can eat and get good nutrients from now? Also, depending on where humans were and who we are talking about and the time of year, "small amounts of meat" may well be incorrect.3 -
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It does make sense to eat small amounts of meat, as we can see in many other species of animals in the world. While humans are the only ones who consume another animals milk. I'm not sure why people get so confused about that.
This is factually incorrect. If given a chance mammals will drink milk from another mammal. Not often a chance but it is observed in wild and domesticated animals.
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dutchandkiwi wrote: »It makes zero sense to consume another animals milk, and animal milk based products. The reason that so many people are "lactose intolerant" is because we're not supposed to be eating that stuff. The only beneficial part of dairy is the high protein content and you can get that from meat, nuts, beans, seeds and even leafy greens.
Sorry have to call you out on that. Supposed is not objective term. As mentioned earlier in the thread. Northern Europeans specifically (others too) have the genes to digest lactose in a great way. They produce an enzyme called lactase that does the trick. Lactose intolerant people will produce either less of it (and can digest fermetend dairy foods) or not and cannot eat diary.
If you state not supposed to you basically say that the body is wrong for producing an enzyme that allows us to eat something that is a great food source and has helped many a population to survive.
Plus we are not just talking cows dairy Around the world also milk and milk products are produced from goat, sheet, buffalo, yak, camel and horse milk (lama I think as well but not sure)
As a comment on your list of protein
If you then say but but some people can't because they are intolerant then my answer would be - you are not suppoed to heat grains then either because there are celiacs that are in fact gluten intolerant. Same for nuts because there are people with allergies. So not suppoed to is complete and utter nonsense! Specifically as you so totally recommend foods that are also limited for some people
For just about every foodstuff there will be people that have either problems digesting and or intolerances
OP: if you feel you want to eat and can handle is try it. Like any food there is a part can you and a part do you like it. Specifically with cheeses and yogurt there is so much to choose from that it is a feast to try if that is what you like.
I could not live without diary. My preferences are cheese and yoghurt. I have to limit cheese intake mainly because the cheeses I love best (blue soft) are also high calorie. But it is one of my go to treats
Yes, people have adapted to digesting dairy, but they haven't adapted to eating it without other consequences to their health. Health goes beyond just being able go digest something. There aren't any long term positive effects on health from dairy, but there are many negative ones. To answer the thing about nut allergies and grains: maybe humans shouldn't eat those as well. Plenty of people already think gluten free is the way to go as it is. I think those should be left up to the individual though, as I haven't seen much research on how nuts negatively affect ones overall, longterm health the way that dairy does.
Plenty of people thought the Earth was flat (some still do). Doesn't mean that it was ever true. Plenty of people also think that causation = correlation, and it most assuredly does not.
Unless you have Celiac's (rare) what would you NOT eat gluten?! It's been a part of the human diet since agriculture. We evolved to process it for reliable stores of energy in order to survive, same as dairy.
Also - re:I haven't seen much research on how nuts negatively affect ones overall, longterm health . .
. . . . If you have an allergy and consume nuts, you could die. That's a pretty negative effect.3 -
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dutchandkiwi wrote: »It does make sense to eat small amounts of meat, as we can see in many other species of animals in the world. While humans are the only ones who consume another animals milk. I'm not sure why people get so confused about that.
This is factually incorrect. If given a chance mammals will drink milk from another mammal. Not often a chance but it is observed in wild and domesticated animals.
Yep, predators will drink the milk in a lactating female if they take one down, or the milk in the belly of a baby animal. We've all seen the cute photos of cats begging for a squirt or two from the udder when a cow is being milked. Orphaned baby animals will happily nurse on another species mamma if she's willing.
Other animals don't drink milk to the extent we do because they haven't figured out how to keep other animals alive and milk them regularly like we do. Except for the ants mentioned upthread.
And as others have said, if it's only "natural" for us to do what other animals do in the wild, we are wholly and completely screwed. Unless I missed all the wild animals harnessing electricity, using toothpaste, cooking their food, developing language, building factories, writing books, wearing glasses...6 -
dutchandkiwi wrote: »It does make sense to eat small amounts of meat, as we can see in many other species of animals in the world. While humans are the only ones who consume another animals milk. I'm not sure why people get so confused about that.
This is factually incorrect. If given a chance mammals will drink milk from another mammal. Not often a chance but it is observed in wild and domesticated animals.
Yep, predators will drink the milk in a lactating female if they take one down, or the milk in the belly of a baby animal. We've all seen the cute photos of cats begging for a squirt or two from the udder when a cow is being milked. Orphaned baby animals will happily nurse on another species mamma if she's willing.
Other animals don't drink milk to the extent we do because they haven't figured out how to keep other animals alive and milk them regularly like we do. Except for the ants mentioned upthread.
And as others have said, if it's only "natural" for us to do what other animals do in the wild, we are wholly and completely screwed. Unless I missed all the wild animals harnessing electricity, using toothpaste, cooking their food, developing language, building factories, writing books, wearing glasses...
that only happened in Atlantis...4 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »It makes zero sense to consume another animals milk, and animal milk based products.
Makes sense to me (and my ancestors who passed on the genes that make it easy to digest for me, just like AnnPT says above).The reason that so many people are "lactose intolerant" is because we're not supposed to be eating that stuff.
No, it's because (for the most part) at least some of their ancestors come from areas of the world where there was no need or custom to consume it regularly, so fewer people developed the ability to do so. IMO, that's unfortunate for them, but says nothing about what people in general are "supposed to" be doing.
It seems that a good number of people find it biologically easy to consume whatever food is available even to the point of becoming overweight or obese. Does that mean we are "supposed to" do that and it makes no sense to use our minds to figure out how to stay slim? Of course not!The only beneficial part of dairy is the high protein content and you can get that from meat, nuts, beans, seeds and even leafy greens.
Also, it tastes good.
Eating dairy (and red meat) has been linked to heart disease, diabetes and some types of cancer. Humans are, to my knowlage, the only animals who consistently give themselves diseases because of what they eat.
If your ancestors were meant to eat dairy, they wouldnt have needed to develop the ability to eat it in the first place. They were eating nothing but fruits, vegetables and small amounts of meat WAY before they started domesticating animals.
You might want to put your phone or lap top down, stop cooking your food, stop ironing your hair etc. After all we had no ability to do so before we ate dairy.3 -
As one of the "special few" with lactose intolerance even I struggle to give up my dairy (developed my intolerance as an adult as part of a mast cell disorder I have that has caused several anaphylactic allergies as well).
I have fat free natural yoghurt with gluten free museli and raw honey for breakfast most days (I also take lactase so I can process it - unless I want a good cleanout
) adds up to 252cal and I use a splash of lactose free milk in coffee/tea(or soy if I am out). I also love low fat ricotta on gluten free quinoa (rice like) cakes.
Even those of us with an intolerance can find a work around for it. I say have your dairy but go for the fat free/low fat options.
Also I tried Almond Milk for a bit and it was HORRIBLE! Destroyed many a good cup of tea/coffee with it.
No point "arguing" with kimny and kissa as you can't educate someone who has their own views so warped that they will stand on the pulpit and preach but not practice what they preach.3 -
AliciaRenee1 wrote: »As one of the "special few" with lactose intolerance even I struggle to give up my dairy (developed my intolerance as an adult as part of a mast cell disorder I have that has caused several anaphylactic allergies as well).
I have fat free natural yoghurt with gluten free museli and raw honey for breakfast most days (I also take lactase so I can process it - unless I want a good cleanout ) adds up to 252cal and I use a splash of lactose free milk in coffee/tea(or soy if I am out). I also love low fat ricotta on gluten free quinoa (rice like) cakes.
Even those of us with an intolerance can find a work around for it. I say have your dairy but go for the fat free/low fat options.
Also I tried Almond Milk for a bit and it was HORRIBLE! Destroyed many a good cup of tea/coffee with it.
No point "arguing" with kimny and kissa as you can't educate someone who has their own views so warped that they will stand on the pulpit and preach but not practice what they preach.
@kimny72 isn't arguing that dairy is bad.0 -
There's no good evidence that reasonable amounts of dairy products are a risk factor for any of those things. Here's a recent review of the literature.Eating dairy ... has been linked to heart disease, diabetes and some types of cancer. Humans are, to my knowlage, the only animals who consistently give themselves diseases because of what they eat.
....
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4703621/
In fact, consumption of low-fat dairy seems to reduce the risk of type 2 diabetes.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3785489/
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We're also the only ones who do a lot of other things. That doesn't mean that purifying our water, brushing our teeth, wearing clothing, etc. are dangerous. In fact, those things demonstrably improve our health and prolong our lives.While humans are the only ones who consume another animals milk. I'm not sure why people get so confused about that.
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We're also the only ones who do a lot of other things. That doesn't mean that purifying our water, brushing our teeth, wearing clothing, etc. are dangerous. In fact, those things demonstrably improve our health and prolong our lives.While humans are the only ones who consume another animals milk. I'm not sure why people get so confused about that.
Not to mention that the only reason other animals don't is because they don't have the means to...if they could, they would. My cat loves milk.4 -
There is so much mix messaging when it comes to dairy that I have read. I use 1% milk in my coffee and cereal. I use fat free half in half in coffee and some dairy dishes too when I want that creaminess. I love dairy, but what helps me keep it under control is my high cholesterol which I am working on lowering with the help of statins and trying to lose weight.0
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WendyLeigh1119 wrote: »It makes zero sense to consume another animals milk, and animal milk based products. The reason that so many people are "lactose intolerant" is because we're not supposed to be eating that stuff. The only beneficial part of dairy is the high protein content and you can get that from meat, nuts, beans, seeds and even leafy greens.
But it makes sense to eat the flesh from another animal?? I find it odd that someone would oppose dairy while endorsing meat of all things.
Dairy is delicious. I could cut just about anything from my diet and never think about it again. But dairy? No way. Cheese and milk are pretty much the only things that make eating worthwhile!
It does make sense to eat small amounts of meat, as we can see in many other species of animals in the world. While humans are the only ones who consume another animals milk. I'm not sure why people get so confused about that.
For starters, you're wrong in thinking we're the only ones who consume another animal's milk.
Secondly, even if we were, we're also the only ones arguing whether we're "meant" to drink milk on a virtual network of highly advanced technology the likes of which this world has never seen before.6 -
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Objectively, its a little bit weird isn't it haha? The only time it is ever really observed in nature is in time of desperation. The fact we had to develop a mutation in order to be able to digest it suggests to me that its more of a survival technique than a diet guideline. And the level of solely natural hormones in milk, designed to make a calf's growth boom, freaks me out. It also largely seems like a waste of calories, with the exception of a few high-protein fermented products. We seem to forget that lactose is a sugar too. So unless we're starving...
That being said, many people find low-lactose cheese and yoghurt, as well as fermented milk products, to be fine for their body and permissible as part of a healthy diet. You have to see what works for you and feels okay.
Personally, I can't begin to imagine it's all that healthy in the long run. I don't want to just live a long life in terms of number of years, but I want as many of those years to be in a happy and healthy body as possible. No good living til I'm 90 if the last 30 years are spent living on the edge of heart attack and stroke.
The jury is still out though, hence the mixture of information! 1 -
@mizchickee, no, I haven't tried goat's milk. I do know that I don't tolerate goat & sheep cheeses either, so I suspect the milk would cause similar results. I seem to be getting plenty of calcium from my dark leafy greens, though. 0
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cwolfman13 wrote: »
We're also the only ones who do a lot of other things. That doesn't mean that purifying our water, brushing our teeth, wearing clothing, etc. are dangerous. In fact, those things demonstrably improve our health and prolong our lives.While humans are the only ones who consume another animals milk. I'm not sure why people get so confused about that.
Not to mention that the only reason other animals don't is because they don't have the means to...if they could, they would. My cat loves milk.
My husband has shredded wheat with kefir every morning and my dogs get the kefir that is left in the dish. They love it, it's probably the highlight of their day. If they could milk a cow, I imagine they would.0 -
Anyone else find it... ironic? ... that the person saying how bad dairy is...
wait for it...
...consumes dairy every day?
Ironic? Sure.
Seems to be a common course for these things on MFP, though:
Someone starts proselytizing, shaming, or conspiracy-theorizing about (evil dairy, evil sugar, "clean eating", evil processed foods, etc. - pick one).
Others chime in with "no, no, unless you have allergies or sensitivities, just eat what you like including (milk, cookies, "junk food", etc.) as long as you get reasonable overall nutrition".
Bystanders do diary check, learn proselytizer eats (more dairy, more sugar, more processed food - whatever was in dispute) than most of the "eat whatever you like" advocates.
I don't know whether it's denial, an attempt to expiate dietary sins, self-hatred/self-shaming, "recent convert syndrome", dysfunctional relationship with food, or something else . . . but it seems to happen fairly often.
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Dombarr269 wrote: »Objectively, its a little bit weird isn't it haha? The only time it is ever really observed in nature is in time of desperation. The fact we had to develop a mutation in order to be able to digest it suggests to me that its more of a survival technique than a diet guideline. And the level of solely natural hormones in milk, designed to make a calf's growth boom, freaks me out. It also largely seems like a waste of calories, with the exception of a few high-protein fermented products. We seem to forget that lactose is a sugar too. So unless we're starving...
That being said, many people find low-lactose cheese and yoghurt, as well as fermented milk products, to be fine for their body and permissible as part of a healthy diet. You have to see what works for you and feels okay.
Personally, I can't begin to imagine it's all that healthy in the long run. I don't want to just live a long life in terms of number of years, but I want as many of those years to be in a happy and healthy body as possible. No good living til I'm 90 if the last 30 years are spent living on the edge of heart attack and stroke. The jury is still out though, hence the mixture of information!
At just over 2/3 of the way to age 90, with a long history of eating large amounts of dairy as an ovo-lacto vegetarian for 43 years, I'm thinking my personal jury's at least starting to file back into the jury box.
BMI: 21. HDL: 65. LDL: 112. Triglycerides: 111. Blood pressure: Usually around 115/75. Prescription drugs: Thyroid hormone only. Resting heart rate: 48, at last wake-up check. Regularly see anaerobic threshold heart rates (and occasionally beyond) during exercise with no chest pain, faintness, or other negative symptoms (and can hold somewhere near a just-below-AT heart rate for the better part of an hour, maybe more, with no obvious ill effects beyond sweat).
Happy? Check. Healthy? Close enough, it seems.
Living on the edge of heart attack and stroke for the last 30 years of life? No guarantees in life, but at age 61 already, I'm thinking the odds are against it.
Probably won't make 90, though - my dairy-consuming parents died in their 80s, after a mostly-healthy older age. Maybe that's the dairy penalty, eh: Those years between 87 and 90?
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