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Do you think obese/overweight people should pay more for health insurance?
Replies
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Socialized healthcare makes a profit? Military healthcare is for profit? Don't think so.There is just ONE reason that healthcare is expensive in the US............................................profit. Until the US becomes a not for profit venture, health care costs for people are just going to keep rising. And really we could have a decent government healthcare system if we diverted money to it. Problem is, taxpayer money is diverted to other profit ventures that benefit people in politics more than it does the people themselves.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Every healthcare system is for profit. Are you suggesting that bureaucrats work for free?
Lots of countries don't have people pay insurance on healthcare and do just fine. Our own would be health care for the military. I grew up an Air Force brat and even today, my retired parents (both past 85 years old) get great healthcare at NO COST to them.You can never have decent healthcare without a motive of profit. This is the primary reason healthcare costs have risen beyond the rest of the consumer index - deliberate insertion of middlemen (government and insurance).
Lol, wouldn't that be socialized medicine then? Affordability for ALL and not just the elite? And who's keeping big pharma and insurance companies happy? The people getting their palms greased by them. Health care shouldn't be for capital gain. I've personally worked in it and with people who suffer who busted their *kitten* working for decades only to use their retirement to pay for medical help not covered by insurance (mostly prescriptions drugs).If you allowed free market forces to compete then you would not have instances where Epipens rose to prohibitive prices. You would have competitive companies offering products at a reduced price to gain market share. Government is the problem, not the solution.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
It's rare that someone actually touts the VA as an shining example of socialized medicine, but if that's what you want to hang you hat on - be my guest. I'm a veteran and I should get no cost medical; however the scheduling and waiting lines make full time employment and service from the VA nearly impossible, unless you enjoy 6 months waiting lines.
Who's keeping big pharma happy? Well first you would have to research the relationship between what the congressional committees allow pharma to charge. A convoluted relationship between market wholesalers, market retailers, insurance companies, hospitals, and any other select buying groups...and of course the government. Pretty simple when you see who's providing the bulk of campaign contributions though.
Shouldn't is not a rational argument. You are actually making an argument against insurance, not for socialized medicine. Remove insurance, remove government. Unleash the free market and the cost of medicine will return to normal.
Here's a lovely story highlighting the ultimate outcome of socialized medicine:
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-40454177
In summary the bureaucrats decide who lives and who dies. When taken to higher authority the judges at the European Court of Human Rights concluded that further treatment would "continue to cause Charlie significant harm". Regardless of a US physician who has offered an alternative treatment the hospital will not release the child to the parent's custody.0 -
That would be people who DON'T already have a healthcare plan right? And it goes back to your statement of "people shouldn't have to pay for others". No healthcare plan, they get hospitalized and it's back to the taxpayer paying for them.
You are FORCED to get insurance if you WANT healthcare in the US. And if one doesn't get it and goes to the hospital for care because it's needed, it goes back to your "demand for services" that WILL be payed by your taxpayer money.
Wait, isn't that what insurance is though? If someone needed a car repair, they pay their deductible and the "pooled" money from everyone else pays the rest. How is that different than healthcare?No. Everyone should be entitled to the same level of healthcare. I feel it's a basic human right. It's similar to charging people more who have a pre existing condition. What else, are we going to charge people more who have a genetic predisposition to certain Illnesses?
Basic human rights would be life, liberty and pursuit of happiness.
You have no right to demand services provided by another individual.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Are you forced to purchase insurance? Does the insurance company send over a law enforcement branch if you don't purchase their product?
Apples and oranges. Insurance is a free market product.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
We are now forced to purchase healthcare thanks to ACA - or pay the penalty. Of course paying the penalty is a much kinder option now that government involvement has demolished the market and any high cap policy options are gone.
Nothing more terrifying than the words "We're from the government, we are here to help."
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition 3 -
That would be people who DON'T already have a healthcare plan right? And it goes back to your statement of "people shouldn't have to pay for others". No healthcare plan, they get hospitalized and it's back to the taxpayer paying for them.
You are FORCED to get insurance if you WANT healthcare in the US. And if one doesn't get it and goes to the hospital for care because it's needed, it goes back to your "demand for services" that WILL be payed by your taxpayer money.
Wait, isn't that what insurance is though? If someone needed a car repair, they pay their deductible and the "pooled" money from everyone else pays the rest. How is that different than healthcare?No. Everyone should be entitled to the same level of healthcare. I feel it's a basic human right. It's similar to charging people more who have a pre existing condition. What else, are we going to charge people more who have a genetic predisposition to certain Illnesses?
Basic human rights would be life, liberty and pursuit of happiness.
You have no right to demand services provided by another individual.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Are you forced to purchase insurance? Does the insurance company send over a law enforcement branch if you don't purchase their product?
Apples and oranges. Insurance is a free market product.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
We are now forced to purchase healthcare thanks to ACA - or pay the penalty. Of course paying the penalty is a much kinder option now that government involvement has demolished the market and any high cap policy options are gone.
Nothing more terrifying than the words "We're from the government, we are here to help."
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
NO, that would be the people who had a healthcare plan that met their needs/desires, and that plan was deemed inadequate under ACA.0 -
That would be people who DON'T already have a healthcare plan right? And it goes back to your statement of "people shouldn't have to pay for others". No healthcare plan, they get hospitalized and it's back to the taxpayer paying for them.
You are FORCED to get insurance if you WANT healthcare in the US. And if one doesn't get it and goes to the hospital for care because it's needed, it goes back to your "demand for services" that WILL be payed by your taxpayer money.
Wait, isn't that what insurance is though? If someone needed a car repair, they pay their deductible and the "pooled" money from everyone else pays the rest. How is that different than healthcare?No. Everyone should be entitled to the same level of healthcare. I feel it's a basic human right. It's similar to charging people more who have a pre existing condition. What else, are we going to charge people more who have a genetic predisposition to certain Illnesses?
Basic human rights would be life, liberty and pursuit of happiness.
You have no right to demand services provided by another individual.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Are you forced to purchase insurance? Does the insurance company send over a law enforcement branch if you don't purchase their product?
Apples and oranges. Insurance is a free market product.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
We are now forced to purchase healthcare thanks to ACA - or pay the penalty. Of course paying the penalty is a much kinder option now that government involvement has demolished the market and any high cap policy options are gone.
Nothing more terrifying than the words "We're from the government, we are here to help."
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Are you deliberately failing to comprehend the distinction between being forced to pay into an unwanted/unneeded process and voluntarily paying into a risk pool?
If socialized medicine is so wonderful and capitalism such a disaster why haven't you voted with your feet?0 -
ciscoperator wrote: »I'd say no. Once you start down the path of limiting healthcare on being overweight, it can follow on to DNA testing for genetic disorders and being charged more for e.g. a great-aunt that developed glaucoma or had sickle-cell anaemia.
We're better off keeping the simple system of universal healthcare where we pay the ~€100 per month with a deductible of €385 (though that keeps going up by around 15 euro each year), where the services of the healthcare provider are provided as part of the insurance (doctor, nurse, surgeon etc.) but the fees paid are for medicines and appliances. But I guess most answering your question aren't in The Netherlands.
Is that deducible a yearly one? That would come out to nearly $450 US which would be very tough for some people living near or below the poverty line - and tough for others if it's a per procedure kind of thing. In the Netherlands universal system, what happens if people cannot afford the monthly fee or deductible?
Most people in the US with deductibles would LOVE it if their deductible was ONLY $450. It's well into the thousands for a lot of people here. (And that's also a pretty tiny premium, too. Wish I could get one that low.)
Oh, absolutely agree!!! If my employer-based insurance's yearly deductible was only $450 and it only cost $100ish per month I'd be super happy! Luckily I get VA care for my most problematic stuff and since I live pretty far from a VA center, I get to use a local doc for general care, but I still pay for additional insurance for anything not service connected and for some medications. I'd be in terrible shape if I didn't have VA care for my knee - they've paid for 4 surgeries, nearly a year of PT, and a whole host of medication and ER visits related to those injuries.
I was thinking more in terms of people who would otherwise be on medicare/medicade, etc and cannot afford even basic insurance. Does the Netherlands universal healthcare system have a program for those who cannot afford the premium and or deductible? For some reason, I also wasn't sure that it was in fact a yearly deductible. On a co-share basis, that would add up very quickly after a few trips.1 -
Socialized healthcare makes a profit? Military healthcare is for profit? Don't think so.There is just ONE reason that healthcare is expensive in the US............................................profit. Until the US becomes a not for profit venture, health care costs for people are just going to keep rising. And really we could have a decent government healthcare system if we diverted money to it. Problem is, taxpayer money is diverted to other profit ventures that benefit people in politics more than it does the people themselves.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Every healthcare system is for profit. Are you suggesting that bureaucrats work for free?
Lots of countries don't have people pay insurance on healthcare and do just fine. Our own would be health care for the military. I grew up an Air Force brat and even today, my retired parents (both past 85 years old) get great healthcare at NO COST to them.You can never have decent healthcare without a motive of profit. This is the primary reason healthcare costs have risen beyond the rest of the consumer index - deliberate insertion of middlemen (government and insurance).
Lol, wouldn't that be socialized medicine then? Affordability for ALL and not just the elite? And who's keeping big pharma and insurance companies happy? The people getting their palms greased by them. Health care shouldn't be for capital gain. I've personally worked in it and with people who suffer who busted their *kitten* working for decades only to use their retirement to pay for medical help not covered by insurance (mostly prescriptions drugs).If you allowed free market forces to compete then you would not have instances where Epipens rose to prohibitive prices. You would have competitive companies offering products at a reduced price to gain market share. Government is the problem, not the solution.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Keep in mind that the only difference between 'for profit' and 'not for profit' is that in 'not for profit', money over and beyond the previous fiscal year budget must get put back into the system in the form of increased salaries, research and development, expansion, increased inefficiency, etc.
In 'for profit' all or some of that money may or may not be distributed to shareholders/owners.
In both, there is plenty of incentive to take in more money than is required.2 -
Socialized healthcare makes a profit? Military healthcare is for profit? Don't think so.There is just ONE reason that healthcare is expensive in the US............................................profit. Until the US becomes a not for profit venture, health care costs for people are just going to keep rising. And really we could have a decent government healthcare system if we diverted money to it. Problem is, taxpayer money is diverted to other profit ventures that benefit people in politics more than it does the people themselves.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Every healthcare system is for profit. Are you suggesting that bureaucrats work for free?
Lots of countries don't have people pay insurance on healthcare and do just fine. Our own would be health care for the military. I grew up an Air Force brat and even today, my retired parents (both past 85 years old) get great healthcare at NO COST to them.You can never have decent healthcare without a motive of profit. This is the primary reason healthcare costs have risen beyond the rest of the consumer index - deliberate insertion of middlemen (government and insurance).
Lol, wouldn't that be socialized medicine then? Affordability for ALL and not just the elite? And who's keeping big pharma and insurance companies happy? The people getting their palms greased by them. Health care shouldn't be for capital gain. I've personally worked in it and with people who suffer who busted their *kitten* working for decades only to use their retirement to pay for medical help not covered by insurance (mostly prescriptions drugs).If you allowed free market forces to compete then you would not have instances where Epipens rose to prohibitive prices. You would have competitive companies offering products at a reduced price to gain market share. Government is the problem, not the solution.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Keep in mind that the only difference between 'for profit' and 'not for profit' is that in 'not for profit', money over and beyond the previous fiscal year budget must get put back into the system in the form of increased salaries, research and development, expansion, increased inefficiency, etc.
In 'for profit' all or some of that money may or may not be distributed to shareholders/owners.
In both, there is plenty of incentive to take in more money than is required.
Which again is why I question the difference between for profit and non-for profit systems. Non-profit organizations are just window dressing and I suppose make those envious of profit feel better...but still remain as profit. It's a ridiculous distinction.0 -
Socialized healthcare makes a profit? Military healthcare is for profit? Don't think so.There is just ONE reason that healthcare is expensive in the US............................................profit. Until the US becomes a not for profit venture, health care costs for people are just going to keep rising. And really we could have a decent government healthcare system if we diverted money to it. Problem is, taxpayer money is diverted to other profit ventures that benefit people in politics more than it does the people themselves.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Every healthcare system is for profit. Are you suggesting that bureaucrats work for free?
Lots of countries don't have people pay insurance on healthcare and do just fine. Our own would be health care for the military. I grew up an Air Force brat and even today, my retired parents (both past 85 years old) get great healthcare at NO COST to them.You can never have decent healthcare without a motive of profit. This is the primary reason healthcare costs have risen beyond the rest of the consumer index - deliberate insertion of middlemen (government and insurance).
Lol, wouldn't that be socialized medicine then? Affordability for ALL and not just the elite? And who's keeping big pharma and insurance companies happy? The people getting their palms greased by them. Health care shouldn't be for capital gain. I've personally worked in it and with people who suffer who busted their *kitten* working for decades only to use their retirement to pay for medical help not covered by insurance (mostly prescriptions drugs).If you allowed free market forces to compete then you would not have instances where Epipens rose to prohibitive prices. You would have competitive companies offering products at a reduced price to gain market share. Government is the problem, not the solution.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
It's rare that someone actually touts the VA as an shining example of socialized medicine, but if that's what you want to hang you hat on - be my guest. I'm a veteran and I should get no cost medical; however the scheduling and waiting lines make full time employment and service from the VA nearly impossible, unless you enjoy 6 months waiting lines.
Who's keeping big pharma happy? Well first you would have to research the relationship between what the congressional committees allow pharma to charge. A convoluted relationship between market wholesalers, market retailers, insurance companies, hospitals, and any other select buying groups...and of course the government. Pretty simple when you see who's providing the bulk of campaign contributions though.
Shouldn't is not a rational argument. You are actually making an argument against insurance, not for socialized medicine. Remove insurance, remove government. Unleash the free market and the cost of medicine will return to normal.
Here's a lovely story highlighting the ultimate outcome of socialized medicine:
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-40454177
In summary the bureaucrats decide who lives and who dies. When taken to higher authority the judges at the European Court of Human Rights concluded that further treatment would "continue to cause Charlie significant harm". Regardless of a US physician who has offered an alternative treatment the hospital will not release the child to the parent's custody.
I think some VA clinics must be more impacted than others, then. Because my husband was able to get his latest appointment within 10 days. That's much faster than the three month wait I had to get an appointment just to see a GP with private insurance.
I'm not sure the story you brought up about the terminally ill kid is relevant to this thread. Terminally ill patients are allowed to die naturally in non-socialized medical systems, too. This poor kid's parents were grasping at straws to try an experimental treatment that had never been tried before on his condition and that multiple experts agreed would not have reversed his brain damage. So best case scenario, this kid lives longer, but in no better shape than he currently is. How is that a good thing? The potential treatment being offered would not have cured this child, but only "possibly" prolonged his life, while "potentially" causing additional harm/genetic mutations/pain/discomfort to him. IMO, not all medical intervention is a good thing. Sometimes it's best to let nature take it's course. I wouldn't want to be kept alive with a degenerative disorder that has destroyed much of my brain, and caused me to lose all normal functioning with no hope of improvement - only the possibility of living longer in that condition. I feel bad for the parents - no one wants to lose a child - but I can't fault the medical team in this case, and I wouldn't exactly call the doctors caring for him "bureaucrats."
2 -
Socialized healthcare makes a profit? Military healthcare is for profit? Don't think so.There is just ONE reason that healthcare is expensive in the US............................................profit. Until the US becomes a not for profit venture, health care costs for people are just going to keep rising. And really we could have a decent government healthcare system if we diverted money to it. Problem is, taxpayer money is diverted to other profit ventures that benefit people in politics more than it does the people themselves.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Every healthcare system is for profit. Are you suggesting that bureaucrats work for free?
Lots of countries don't have people pay insurance on healthcare and do just fine. Our own would be health care for the military. I grew up an Air Force brat and even today, my retired parents (both past 85 years old) get great healthcare at NO COST to them.You can never have decent healthcare without a motive of profit. This is the primary reason healthcare costs have risen beyond the rest of the consumer index - deliberate insertion of middlemen (government and insurance).
Lol, wouldn't that be socialized medicine then? Affordability for ALL and not just the elite? And who's keeping big pharma and insurance companies happy? The people getting their palms greased by them. Health care shouldn't be for capital gain. I've personally worked in it and with people who suffer who busted their *kitten* working for decades only to use their retirement to pay for medical help not covered by insurance (mostly prescriptions drugs).If you allowed free market forces to compete then you would not have instances where Epipens rose to prohibitive prices. You would have competitive companies offering products at a reduced price to gain market share. Government is the problem, not the solution.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
It's rare that someone actually touts the VA as an shining example of socialized medicine, but if that's what you want to hang you hat on - be my guest. I'm a veteran and I should get no cost medical; however the scheduling and waiting lines make full time employment and service from the VA nearly impossible, unless you enjoy 6 months waiting lines.
Who's keeping big pharma happy? Well first you would have to research the relationship between what the congressional committees allow pharma to charge. A convoluted relationship between market wholesalers, market retailers, insurance companies, hospitals, and any other select buying groups...and of course the government. Pretty simple when you see who's providing the bulk of campaign contributions though.
Shouldn't is not a rational argument. You are actually making an argument against insurance, not for socialized medicine. Remove insurance, remove government. Unleash the free market and the cost of medicine will return to normal.
Here's a lovely story highlighting the ultimate outcome of socialized medicine:
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-40454177
In summary the bureaucrats decide who lives and who dies. When taken to higher authority the judges at the European Court of Human Rights concluded that further treatment would "continue to cause Charlie significant harm". Regardless of a US physician who has offered an alternative treatment the hospital will not release the child to the parent's custody.
I think some VA clinics must be more impacted than others, then. Because my husband was able to get his latest appointment within 10 days. That's much faster than the three month wait I had to get an appointment just to see a GP with private insurance.
I'm not sure the story you brought up about the terminally ill kid is relevant to this thread. Terminally ill patients are allowed to die naturally in non-socialized medical systems, too. This poor kid's parents were grasping at straws to try an experimental treatment that had never been tried before on his condition and that multiple experts agreed would not have reversed his brain damage. So best case scenario, this kid lives longer, but in no better shape than he currently is. How is that a good thing? The potential treatment being offered would not have cured this child, but only "possibly" prolonged his life, while "potentially" causing additional harm/genetic mutations/pain/discomfort to him. IMO, not all medical intervention is a good thing. Sometimes it's best to let nature take it's course. I wouldn't want to be kept alive with a degenerative disorder that has destroyed much of my brain, and caused me to lose all normal functioning with no hope of improvement - only the possibility of living longer in that condition. I feel bad for the parents - no one wants to lose a child - but I can't fault the medical team in this case, and I wouldn't exactly call the doctors caring for him "bureaucrats."
I can understand why proponents of socialized medicine would want to downplay this story and all others like it. This isn't a matter of being allowed to die - it's one of a bureaucratic panel deciding that a child will die in direct conflict with the wishes of the parents. Of course you wouldn't want to use a term such as bureaucrat as it hurts your narrative. How else would you describe the European Court of Human Rights?
This isn't about you. Your opinion in this matter is irrelevant, as is mine. The only opinions that matter are that of the parents and the treating physicians, but this is never the case in a socialized structure. What is truly horrific is that the state now refuses to release custody of the parent's child to the parents.
To be expected as in a socialized system the individual has no unalienable rights. Your rights are those the state allows you to have.
1 -
Socialized healthcare makes a profit? Military healthcare is for profit? Don't think so.There is just ONE reason that healthcare is expensive in the US............................................profit. Until the US becomes a not for profit venture, health care costs for people are just going to keep rising. And really we could have a decent government healthcare system if we diverted money to it. Problem is, taxpayer money is diverted to other profit ventures that benefit people in politics more than it does the people themselves.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Every healthcare system is for profit. Are you suggesting that bureaucrats work for free?
Lots of countries don't have people pay insurance on healthcare and do just fine. Our own would be health care for the military. I grew up an Air Force brat and even today, my retired parents (both past 85 years old) get great healthcare at NO COST to them.You can never have decent healthcare without a motive of profit. This is the primary reason healthcare costs have risen beyond the rest of the consumer index - deliberate insertion of middlemen (government and insurance).
Lol, wouldn't that be socialized medicine then? Affordability for ALL and not just the elite? And who's keeping big pharma and insurance companies happy? The people getting their palms greased by them. Health care shouldn't be for capital gain. I've personally worked in it and with people who suffer who busted their *kitten* working for decades only to use their retirement to pay for medical help not covered by insurance (mostly prescriptions drugs).If you allowed free market forces to compete then you would not have instances where Epipens rose to prohibitive prices. You would have competitive companies offering products at a reduced price to gain market share. Government is the problem, not the solution.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
It's rare that someone actually touts the VA as an shining example of socialized medicine, but if that's what you want to hang you hat on - be my guest. I'm a veteran and I should get no cost medical; however the scheduling and waiting lines make full time employment and service from the VA nearly impossible, unless you enjoy 6 months waiting lines.
Who's keeping big pharma happy? Well first you would have to research the relationship between what the congressional committees allow pharma to charge. A convoluted relationship between market wholesalers, market retailers, insurance companies, hospitals, and any other select buying groups...and of course the government. Pretty simple when you see who's providing the bulk of campaign contributions though.
Shouldn't is not a rational argument. You are actually making an argument against insurance, not for socialized medicine. Remove insurance, remove government. Unleash the free market and the cost of medicine will return to normal.
Here's a lovely story highlighting the ultimate outcome of socialized medicine:
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-40454177
In summary the bureaucrats decide who lives and who dies. When taken to higher authority the judges at the European Court of Human Rights concluded that further treatment would "continue to cause Charlie significant harm". Regardless of a US physician who has offered an alternative treatment the hospital will not release the child to the parent's custody.
I think some VA clinics must be more impacted than others, then. Because my husband was able to get his latest appointment within 10 days. That's much faster than the three month wait I had to get an appointment just to see a GP with private insurance.
I'm not sure the story you brought up about the terminally ill kid is relevant to this thread. Terminally ill patients are allowed to die naturally in non-socialized medical systems, too. This poor kid's parents were grasping at straws to try an experimental treatment that had never been tried before on his condition and that multiple experts agreed would not have reversed his brain damage. So best case scenario, this kid lives longer, but in no better shape than he currently is. How is that a good thing? The potential treatment being offered would not have cured this child, but only "possibly" prolonged his life, while "potentially" causing additional harm/genetic mutations/pain/discomfort to him. IMO, not all medical intervention is a good thing. Sometimes it's best to let nature take it's course. I wouldn't want to be kept alive with a degenerative disorder that has destroyed much of my brain, and caused me to lose all normal functioning with no hope of improvement - only the possibility of living longer in that condition. I feel bad for the parents - no one wants to lose a child - but I can't fault the medical team in this case, and I wouldn't exactly call the doctors caring for him "bureaucrats."
I can understand why proponents of socialized medicine would want to downplay this story and all others like it. This isn't a matter of being allowed to die - it's one of a bureaucratic panel deciding that a child will die in direct conflict with the wishes of the parents. Of course you wouldn't want to use a term such as bureaucrat as it hurts your narrative. How else would you describe the European Court of Human Rights?
This isn't about you. Your opinion in this matter is irrelevant, as is mine. The only opinions that matter are that of the parents and the treating physicians, but this is never the case in a socialized structure. What is truly horrific is that the state now refuses to release custody of the parent's child to the parents.
To be expected as in a socialized system the individual has no unalienable rights. Your rights are those the state allows you to have.
The treating physicians DID give their opinion and the court upheld it.2 -
Socialized healthcare makes a profit? Military healthcare is for profit? Don't think so.There is just ONE reason that healthcare is expensive in the US............................................profit. Until the US becomes a not for profit venture, health care costs for people are just going to keep rising. And really we could have a decent government healthcare system if we diverted money to it. Problem is, taxpayer money is diverted to other profit ventures that benefit people in politics more than it does the people themselves.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Every healthcare system is for profit. Are you suggesting that bureaucrats work for free?
Lots of countries don't have people pay insurance on healthcare and do just fine. Our own would be health care for the military. I grew up an Air Force brat and even today, my retired parents (both past 85 years old) get great healthcare at NO COST to them.You can never have decent healthcare without a motive of profit. This is the primary reason healthcare costs have risen beyond the rest of the consumer index - deliberate insertion of middlemen (government and insurance).
Lol, wouldn't that be socialized medicine then? Affordability for ALL and not just the elite? And who's keeping big pharma and insurance companies happy? The people getting their palms greased by them. Health care shouldn't be for capital gain. I've personally worked in it and with people who suffer who busted their *kitten* working for decades only to use their retirement to pay for medical help not covered by insurance (mostly prescriptions drugs).If you allowed free market forces to compete then you would not have instances where Epipens rose to prohibitive prices. You would have competitive companies offering products at a reduced price to gain market share. Government is the problem, not the solution.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
It's rare that someone actually touts the VA as an shining example of socialized medicine, but if that's what you want to hang you hat on - be my guest. I'm a veteran and I should get no cost medical; however the scheduling and waiting lines make full time employment and service from the VA nearly impossible, unless you enjoy 6 months waiting lines.
Who's keeping big pharma happy? Well first you would have to research the relationship between what the congressional committees allow pharma to charge. A convoluted relationship between market wholesalers, market retailers, insurance companies, hospitals, and any other select buying groups...and of course the government. Pretty simple when you see who's providing the bulk of campaign contributions though.
Shouldn't is not a rational argument. You are actually making an argument against insurance, not for socialized medicine. Remove insurance, remove government. Unleash the free market and the cost of medicine will return to normal.
Here's a lovely story highlighting the ultimate outcome of socialized medicine:
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-40454177
In summary the bureaucrats decide who lives and who dies. When taken to higher authority the judges at the European Court of Human Rights concluded that further treatment would "continue to cause Charlie significant harm". Regardless of a US physician who has offered an alternative treatment the hospital will not release the child to the parent's custody.
I think some VA clinics must be more impacted than others, then. Because my husband was able to get his latest appointment within 10 days. That's much faster than the three month wait I had to get an appointment just to see a GP with private insurance.
I'm not sure the story you brought up about the terminally ill kid is relevant to this thread. Terminally ill patients are allowed to die naturally in non-socialized medical systems, too. This poor kid's parents were grasping at straws to try an experimental treatment that had never been tried before on his condition and that multiple experts agreed would not have reversed his brain damage. So best case scenario, this kid lives longer, but in no better shape than he currently is. How is that a good thing? The potential treatment being offered would not have cured this child, but only "possibly" prolonged his life, while "potentially" causing additional harm/genetic mutations/pain/discomfort to him. IMO, not all medical intervention is a good thing. Sometimes it's best to let nature take it's course. I wouldn't want to be kept alive with a degenerative disorder that has destroyed much of my brain, and caused me to lose all normal functioning with no hope of improvement - only the possibility of living longer in that condition. I feel bad for the parents - no one wants to lose a child - but I can't fault the medical team in this case, and I wouldn't exactly call the doctors caring for him "bureaucrats."
I can understand why proponents of socialized medicine would want to downplay this story and all others like it. This isn't a matter of being allowed to die - it's one of a bureaucratic panel deciding that a child will die in direct conflict with the wishes of the parents. Of course you wouldn't want to use a term such as bureaucrat as it hurts your narrative. How else would you describe the European Court of Human Rights?
This isn't about you. Your opinion in this matter is irrelevant, as is mine. The only opinions that matter are that of the parents and the treating physicians, but this is never the case in a socialized structure. What is truly horrific is that the state now refuses to release custody of the parent's child to the parents.
To be expected as in a socialized system the individual has no unalienable rights. Your rights are those the state allows you to have.
The treating physicians DID give their opinion and the court upheld it.
In contradiction to the wishes of the parents and other physicians.
A court of bureaucrats superseded the wishes of parents. Despicable.2 -
Socialized healthcare makes a profit? Military healthcare is for profit? Don't think so.There is just ONE reason that healthcare is expensive in the US............................................profit. Until the US becomes a not for profit venture, health care costs for people are just going to keep rising. And really we could have a decent government healthcare system if we diverted money to it. Problem is, taxpayer money is diverted to other profit ventures that benefit people in politics more than it does the people themselves.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Every healthcare system is for profit. Are you suggesting that bureaucrats work for free?
Lots of countries don't have people pay insurance on healthcare and do just fine. Our own would be health care for the military. I grew up an Air Force brat and even today, my retired parents (both past 85 years old) get great healthcare at NO COST to them.You can never have decent healthcare without a motive of profit. This is the primary reason healthcare costs have risen beyond the rest of the consumer index - deliberate insertion of middlemen (government and insurance).
Lol, wouldn't that be socialized medicine then? Affordability for ALL and not just the elite? And who's keeping big pharma and insurance companies happy? The people getting their palms greased by them. Health care shouldn't be for capital gain. I've personally worked in it and with people who suffer who busted their *kitten* working for decades only to use their retirement to pay for medical help not covered by insurance (mostly prescriptions drugs).If you allowed free market forces to compete then you would not have instances where Epipens rose to prohibitive prices. You would have competitive companies offering products at a reduced price to gain market share. Government is the problem, not the solution.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
It's rare that someone actually touts the VA as an shining example of socialized medicine, but if that's what you want to hang you hat on - be my guest. I'm a veteran and I should get no cost medical; however the scheduling and waiting lines make full time employment and service from the VA nearly impossible, unless you enjoy 6 months waiting lines.
Who's keeping big pharma happy? Well first you would have to research the relationship between what the congressional committees allow pharma to charge. A convoluted relationship between market wholesalers, market retailers, insurance companies, hospitals, and any other select buying groups...and of course the government. Pretty simple when you see who's providing the bulk of campaign contributions though.
Shouldn't is not a rational argument. You are actually making an argument against insurance, not for socialized medicine. Remove insurance, remove government. Unleash the free market and the cost of medicine will return to normal.
Here's a lovely story highlighting the ultimate outcome of socialized medicine:
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-40454177
In summary the bureaucrats decide who lives and who dies. When taken to higher authority the judges at the European Court of Human Rights concluded that further treatment would "continue to cause Charlie significant harm". Regardless of a US physician who has offered an alternative treatment the hospital will not release the child to the parent's custody.
I think some VA clinics must be more impacted than others, then. Because my husband was able to get his latest appointment within 10 days. That's much faster than the three month wait I had to get an appointment just to see a GP with private insurance.
I'm not sure the story you brought up about the terminally ill kid is relevant to this thread. Terminally ill patients are allowed to die naturally in non-socialized medical systems, too. This poor kid's parents were grasping at straws to try an experimental treatment that had never been tried before on his condition and that multiple experts agreed would not have reversed his brain damage. So best case scenario, this kid lives longer, but in no better shape than he currently is. How is that a good thing? The potential treatment being offered would not have cured this child, but only "possibly" prolonged his life, while "potentially" causing additional harm/genetic mutations/pain/discomfort to him. IMO, not all medical intervention is a good thing. Sometimes it's best to let nature take it's course. I wouldn't want to be kept alive with a degenerative disorder that has destroyed much of my brain, and caused me to lose all normal functioning with no hope of improvement - only the possibility of living longer in that condition. I feel bad for the parents - no one wants to lose a child - but I can't fault the medical team in this case, and I wouldn't exactly call the doctors caring for him "bureaucrats."
I can understand why proponents of socialized medicine would want to downplay this story and all others like it. This isn't a matter of being allowed to die - it's one of a bureaucratic panel deciding that a child will die in direct conflict with the wishes of the parents. Of course you wouldn't want to use a term such as bureaucrat as it hurts your narrative. How else would you describe the European Court of Human Rights?
This isn't about you. Your opinion in this matter is irrelevant, as is mine. The only opinions that matter are that of the parents and the treating physicians, but this is never the case in a socialized structure. What is truly horrific is that the state now refuses to release custody of the parent's child to the parents.
To be expected as in a socialized system the individual has no unalienable rights. Your rights are those the state allows you to have.
The treating physicians DID give their opinion and the court upheld it.
In contradiction to the wishes of the parents and other physicians.
A court of bureaucrats superseded the wishes of parents. Despicable.
http://www.aapsonline.org/patients/billrts.htmadopted in 1995
All patients should be guaranteed the following freedoms:
•To seek consultation with the physician(s) of their choice;
•To contract with their physician(s) on mutually agreeable terms;
•To be treated confidentially, with access to their records limited to those involved in their care or designated by the patient;
•To use their own resources to purchase the care of their choice;
•To refuse medical treatment even if it is recommended by their physician(s);
•To be informed about their medical condition, the risks and benefits of treatment and appropriate alternatives;
•To refuse third-party interference in their medical care, and to be confident that their actions in seeking or declining medical care will not result in third-party-imposed penalties for patients or physicians;
•To receive full disclosure of their insurance plan in plain language, including:
1.CONTRACTS: A copy of the contract between the physician and health care plan, and between the patient or employer and the plan;
2.INCENTIVES: Whether participating physicians are offered financial incentives to reduce treatment or ration care;
3.COST: The full cost of the plan, including copayments, coinsurance, and deductibles;
4.COVERAGE: Benefits covered and excluded, including availability and location of 24-hour emergency care;
5.QUALIFICATIONS: A roster and qualifications of participating physicians;
6.APPROVAL PROCEDURES: Authorization procedures for services, whether doctors need approval of a committee or any other individual, and who decides what is medically necessary;
7.REFERRALS: Procedures for consulting a specialist, and who must authorize the referral;
8.APPEALS: Grievance procedures for claim or treatment denials;
9.GAG RULE: Whether physicians are subject to a gag rule, preventing criticism of the plan.
1 -
Here's a lovely story highlighting the ultimate outcome of socialized medicine:
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-40454177
In summary the bureaucrats decide who lives and who dies. When taken to higher authority the judges at the European Court of Human Rights concluded that further treatment would "continue to cause Charlie significant harm". Regardless of a US physician who has offered an alternative treatment the hospital will not release the child to the parent's custody.
This isn't a product of socialized medicine. This happens here in the US too. Insurance companies denying treatment. Hospitals overriding legal documentation on preferred treatment. Long list of court cases deciding what treatments a person gets when family members disagree. It even isn't that uncommon for a government body to step in and strip the family from the right to decided their loved ones fate.
2 -
Here's a lovely story highlighting the ultimate outcome of socialized medicine:
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-40454177
In summary the bureaucrats decide who lives and who dies. When taken to higher authority the judges at the European Court of Human Rights concluded that further treatment would "continue to cause Charlie significant harm". Regardless of a US physician who has offered an alternative treatment the hospital will not release the child to the parent's custody.
This isn't a product of socialized medicine. This happens here in the US too. Insurance companies denying treatment. Hospitals overriding legal documentation on preferred treatment. Long list of court cases deciding what treatments a person gets when family members disagree. It even isn't that uncommon for a government body to step in and strip the family from the right to decided their loved ones fate.
In the US, if a family has a 1.65 Million Dollar Go Fund me account. the Doctors aren't going to refuse to allow the patient to be transferred.1 -
Here's a lovely story highlighting the ultimate outcome of socialized medicine:
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-40454177
In summary the bureaucrats decide who lives and who dies. When taken to higher authority the judges at the European Court of Human Rights concluded that further treatment would "continue to cause Charlie significant harm". Regardless of a US physician who has offered an alternative treatment the hospital will not release the child to the parent's custody.
This isn't a product of socialized medicine. This happens here in the US too. Insurance companies denying treatment. Hospitals overriding legal documentation on preferred treatment. Long list of court cases deciding what treatments a person gets when family members disagree. It even isn't that uncommon for a government body to step in and strip the family from the right to decided their loved ones fate.
This is precisely the outcome of socialized medicine.
Citation please?
Show me where an insurance company refused to release a child into the care of a physician wanting to attempt an experimental course of therapy.
I'll accept one from your alleged "long list".0 -
Socialized healthcare makes a profit? Military healthcare is for profit? Don't think so.There is just ONE reason that healthcare is expensive in the US............................................profit. Until the US becomes a not for profit venture, health care costs for people are just going to keep rising. And really we could have a decent government healthcare system if we diverted money to it. Problem is, taxpayer money is diverted to other profit ventures that benefit people in politics more than it does the people themselves.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Every healthcare system is for profit. Are you suggesting that bureaucrats work for free?
Lots of countries don't have people pay insurance on healthcare and do just fine. Our own would be health care for the military. I grew up an Air Force brat and even today, my retired parents (both past 85 years old) get great healthcare at NO COST to them.You can never have decent healthcare without a motive of profit. This is the primary reason healthcare costs have risen beyond the rest of the consumer index - deliberate insertion of middlemen (government and insurance).
Lol, wouldn't that be socialized medicine then? Affordability for ALL and not just the elite? And who's keeping big pharma and insurance companies happy? The people getting their palms greased by them. Health care shouldn't be for capital gain. I've personally worked in it and with people who suffer who busted their *kitten* working for decades only to use their retirement to pay for medical help not covered by insurance (mostly prescriptions drugs).If you allowed free market forces to compete then you would not have instances where Epipens rose to prohibitive prices. You would have competitive companies offering products at a reduced price to gain market share. Government is the problem, not the solution.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
It's rare that someone actually touts the VA as an shining example of socialized medicine, but if that's what you want to hang you hat on - be my guest. I'm a veteran and I should get no cost medical; however the scheduling and waiting lines make full time employment and service from the VA nearly impossible, unless you enjoy 6 months waiting lines.
Who's keeping big pharma happy? Well first you would have to research the relationship between what the congressional committees allow pharma to charge. A convoluted relationship between market wholesalers, market retailers, insurance companies, hospitals, and any other select buying groups...and of course the government. Pretty simple when you see who's providing the bulk of campaign contributions though.
Shouldn't is not a rational argument. You are actually making an argument against insurance, not for socialized medicine. Remove insurance, remove government. Unleash the free market and the cost of medicine will return to normal.
Here's a lovely story highlighting the ultimate outcome of socialized medicine:
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-40454177
In summary the bureaucrats decide who lives and who dies. When taken to higher authority the judges at the European Court of Human Rights concluded that further treatment would "continue to cause Charlie significant harm". Regardless of a US physician who has offered an alternative treatment the hospital will not release the child to the parent's custody.
I think some VA clinics must be more impacted than others, then. Because my husband was able to get his latest appointment within 10 days. That's much faster than the three month wait I had to get an appointment just to see a GP with private insurance.
I'm not sure the story you brought up about the terminally ill kid is relevant to this thread. Terminally ill patients are allowed to die naturally in non-socialized medical systems, too. This poor kid's parents were grasping at straws to try an experimental treatment that had never been tried before on his condition and that multiple experts agreed would not have reversed his brain damage. So best case scenario, this kid lives longer, but in no better shape than he currently is. How is that a good thing? The potential treatment being offered would not have cured this child, but only "possibly" prolonged his life, while "potentially" causing additional harm/genetic mutations/pain/discomfort to him. IMO, not all medical intervention is a good thing. Sometimes it's best to let nature take it's course. I wouldn't want to be kept alive with a degenerative disorder that has destroyed much of my brain, and caused me to lose all normal functioning with no hope of improvement - only the possibility of living longer in that condition. I feel bad for the parents - no one wants to lose a child - but I can't fault the medical team in this case, and I wouldn't exactly call the doctors caring for him "bureaucrats."
I can understand why proponents of socialized medicine would want to downplay this story and all others like it. This isn't a matter of being allowed to die - it's one of a bureaucratic panel deciding that a child will die in direct conflict with the wishes of the parents. Of course you wouldn't want to use a term such as bureaucrat as it hurts your narrative. How else would you describe the European Court of Human Rights?
This isn't about you. Your opinion in this matter is irrelevant, as is mine. The only opinions that matter are that of the parents and the treating physicians, but this is never the case in a socialized structure. What is truly horrific is that the state now refuses to release custody of the parent's child to the parents.
To be expected as in a socialized system the individual has no unalienable rights. Your rights are those the state allows you to have.
The treating physicians DID give their opinion and the court upheld it.
In contradiction to the wishes of the parents and other physicians.
A court of bureaucrats superseded the wishes of parents. Despicable.
Which "other physicians"? You mean the guy who is willing to accept their money for his medical research in exchange for attempting "treatment," but who also acknowledged that the treatment was unlikely to work? Because all the current treating physicians and experts in the field were saying that the treatment has the potential to prolong discomfort or cause pain to the child, without much chance for benefit. Sometimes it's more humane and ethical to let someone pass naturally than it is to experiment on them. Clearly the parents' wishes are based on emotion, not rational medical expertise. Courts supersede parents wishes all the time when the parents' wishes are potentially harmful to their children. Kids are people, not property.4 -
Socialized healthcare makes a profit? Military healthcare is for profit? Don't think so.There is just ONE reason that healthcare is expensive in the US............................................profit. Until the US becomes a not for profit venture, health care costs for people are just going to keep rising. And really we could have a decent government healthcare system if we diverted money to it. Problem is, taxpayer money is diverted to other profit ventures that benefit people in politics more than it does the people themselves.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Every healthcare system is for profit. Are you suggesting that bureaucrats work for free?
Lots of countries don't have people pay insurance on healthcare and do just fine. Our own would be health care for the military. I grew up an Air Force brat and even today, my retired parents (both past 85 years old) get great healthcare at NO COST to them.You can never have decent healthcare without a motive of profit. This is the primary reason healthcare costs have risen beyond the rest of the consumer index - deliberate insertion of middlemen (government and insurance).
Lol, wouldn't that be socialized medicine then? Affordability for ALL and not just the elite? And who's keeping big pharma and insurance companies happy? The people getting their palms greased by them. Health care shouldn't be for capital gain. I've personally worked in it and with people who suffer who busted their *kitten* working for decades only to use their retirement to pay for medical help not covered by insurance (mostly prescriptions drugs).If you allowed free market forces to compete then you would not have instances where Epipens rose to prohibitive prices. You would have competitive companies offering products at a reduced price to gain market share. Government is the problem, not the solution.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
It's rare that someone actually touts the VA as an shining example of socialized medicine, but if that's what you want to hang you hat on - be my guest. I'm a veteran and I should get no cost medical; however the scheduling and waiting lines make full time employment and service from the VA nearly impossible, unless you enjoy 6 months waiting lines.
Who's keeping big pharma happy? Well first you would have to research the relationship between what the congressional committees allow pharma to charge. A convoluted relationship between market wholesalers, market retailers, insurance companies, hospitals, and any other select buying groups...and of course the government. Pretty simple when you see who's providing the bulk of campaign contributions though.
Shouldn't is not a rational argument. You are actually making an argument against insurance, not for socialized medicine. Remove insurance, remove government. Unleash the free market and the cost of medicine will return to normal.
Here's a lovely story highlighting the ultimate outcome of socialized medicine:
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-40454177
In summary the bureaucrats decide who lives and who dies. When taken to higher authority the judges at the European Court of Human Rights concluded that further treatment would "continue to cause Charlie significant harm". Regardless of a US physician who has offered an alternative treatment the hospital will not release the child to the parent's custody.
I think some VA clinics must be more impacted than others, then. Because my husband was able to get his latest appointment within 10 days. That's much faster than the three month wait I had to get an appointment just to see a GP with private insurance.
I'm not sure the story you brought up about the terminally ill kid is relevant to this thread. Terminally ill patients are allowed to die naturally in non-socialized medical systems, too. This poor kid's parents were grasping at straws to try an experimental treatment that had never been tried before on his condition and that multiple experts agreed would not have reversed his brain damage. So best case scenario, this kid lives longer, but in no better shape than he currently is. How is that a good thing? The potential treatment being offered would not have cured this child, but only "possibly" prolonged his life, while "potentially" causing additional harm/genetic mutations/pain/discomfort to him. IMO, not all medical intervention is a good thing. Sometimes it's best to let nature take it's course. I wouldn't want to be kept alive with a degenerative disorder that has destroyed much of my brain, and caused me to lose all normal functioning with no hope of improvement - only the possibility of living longer in that condition. I feel bad for the parents - no one wants to lose a child - but I can't fault the medical team in this case, and I wouldn't exactly call the doctors caring for him "bureaucrats."
I can understand why proponents of socialized medicine would want to downplay this story and all others like it. This isn't a matter of being allowed to die - it's one of a bureaucratic panel deciding that a child will die in direct conflict with the wishes of the parents. Of course you wouldn't want to use a term such as bureaucrat as it hurts your narrative. How else would you describe the European Court of Human Rights?
This isn't about you. Your opinion in this matter is irrelevant, as is mine. The only opinions that matter are that of the parents and the treating physicians, but this is never the case in a socialized structure. What is truly horrific is that the state now refuses to release custody of the parent's child to the parents.
To be expected as in a socialized system the individual has no unalienable rights. Your rights are those the state allows you to have.
The treating physicians DID give their opinion and the court upheld it.
In contradiction to the wishes of the parents and other physicians.
A court of bureaucrats superseded the wishes of parents. Despicable.
Which "other physicians"? You mean the guy who is willing to accept their money for his medical research in exchange for attempting "treatment," but who also acknowledged that the treatment was unlikely to work? Because all the current treating physicians and experts in the field were saying that the treatment has the potential to prolong discomfort or cause pain to the child, without much chance for benefit. Sometimes it's more humane and ethical to let someone pass naturally than it is to experiment on them. Clearly the parents' wishes are based on emotion, not rational medical expertise. Courts supersede parents wishes all the time when the parents' wishes are potentially harmful to their children. Kids are people, not property.
"Sometime it's more humane and ethical to let someone pass naturally than it is to experiment on them." - Not your decision. This is between the parents and their physician.
This is why I advocate for a two tiered structure. You may willingly relinquish all rights and liberty to your betters, but you speak for you and you alone.
Kids are evidently property of the government as highlighted by this case. Parents have no rights.1 -
Socialized healthcare makes a profit? Military healthcare is for profit? Don't think so.There is just ONE reason that healthcare is expensive in the US............................................profit. Until the US becomes a not for profit venture, health care costs for people are just going to keep rising. And really we could have a decent government healthcare system if we diverted money to it. Problem is, taxpayer money is diverted to other profit ventures that benefit people in politics more than it does the people themselves.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Every healthcare system is for profit. Are you suggesting that bureaucrats work for free?
Lots of countries don't have people pay insurance on healthcare and do just fine. Our own would be health care for the military. I grew up an Air Force brat and even today, my retired parents (both past 85 years old) get great healthcare at NO COST to them.You can never have decent healthcare without a motive of profit. This is the primary reason healthcare costs have risen beyond the rest of the consumer index - deliberate insertion of middlemen (government and insurance).
Lol, wouldn't that be socialized medicine then? Affordability for ALL and not just the elite? And who's keeping big pharma and insurance companies happy? The people getting their palms greased by them. Health care shouldn't be for capital gain. I've personally worked in it and with people who suffer who busted their *kitten* working for decades only to use their retirement to pay for medical help not covered by insurance (mostly prescriptions drugs).If you allowed free market forces to compete then you would not have instances where Epipens rose to prohibitive prices. You would have competitive companies offering products at a reduced price to gain market share. Government is the problem, not the solution.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
It's rare that someone actually touts the VA as an shining example of socialized medicine, but if that's what you want to hang you hat on - be my guest. I'm a veteran and I should get no cost medical; however the scheduling and waiting lines make full time employment and service from the VA nearly impossible, unless you enjoy 6 months waiting lines.
Who's keeping big pharma happy? Well first you would have to research the relationship between what the congressional committees allow pharma to charge. A convoluted relationship between market wholesalers, market retailers, insurance companies, hospitals, and any other select buying groups...and of course the government. Pretty simple when you see who's providing the bulk of campaign contributions though.
Shouldn't is not a rational argument. You are actually making an argument against insurance, not for socialized medicine. Remove insurance, remove government. Unleash the free market and the cost of medicine will return to normal.
Here's a lovely story highlighting the ultimate outcome of socialized medicine:
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-40454177
In summary the bureaucrats decide who lives and who dies. When taken to higher authority the judges at the European Court of Human Rights concluded that further treatment would "continue to cause Charlie significant harm". Regardless of a US physician who has offered an alternative treatment the hospital will not release the child to the parent's custody.
I think some VA clinics must be more impacted than others, then. Because my husband was able to get his latest appointment within 10 days. That's much faster than the three month wait I had to get an appointment just to see a GP with private insurance.
I'm not sure the story you brought up about the terminally ill kid is relevant to this thread. Terminally ill patients are allowed to die naturally in non-socialized medical systems, too. This poor kid's parents were grasping at straws to try an experimental treatment that had never been tried before on his condition and that multiple experts agreed would not have reversed his brain damage. So best case scenario, this kid lives longer, but in no better shape than he currently is. How is that a good thing? The potential treatment being offered would not have cured this child, but only "possibly" prolonged his life, while "potentially" causing additional harm/genetic mutations/pain/discomfort to him. IMO, not all medical intervention is a good thing. Sometimes it's best to let nature take it's course. I wouldn't want to be kept alive with a degenerative disorder that has destroyed much of my brain, and caused me to lose all normal functioning with no hope of improvement - only the possibility of living longer in that condition. I feel bad for the parents - no one wants to lose a child - but I can't fault the medical team in this case, and I wouldn't exactly call the doctors caring for him "bureaucrats."
I can understand why proponents of socialized medicine would want to downplay this story and all others like it. This isn't a matter of being allowed to die - it's one of a bureaucratic panel deciding that a child will die in direct conflict with the wishes of the parents. Of course you wouldn't want to use a term such as bureaucrat as it hurts your narrative. How else would you describe the European Court of Human Rights?
This isn't about you. Your opinion in this matter is irrelevant, as is mine. The only opinions that matter are that of the parents and the treating physicians, but this is never the case in a socialized structure. What is truly horrific is that the state now refuses to release custody of the parent's child to the parents.
To be expected as in a socialized system the individual has no unalienable rights. Your rights are those the state allows you to have.
The treating physicians DID give their opinion and the court upheld it.
In contradiction to the wishes of the parents and other physicians.
A court of bureaucrats superseded the wishes of parents. Despicable.
Which "other physicians"? You mean the guy who is willing to accept their money for his medical research in exchange for attempting "treatment," but who also acknowledged that the treatment was unlikely to work? Because all the current treating physicians and experts in the field were saying that the treatment has the potential to prolong discomfort or cause pain to the child, without much chance for benefit. Sometimes it's more humane and ethical to let someone pass naturally than it is to experiment on them. Clearly the parents' wishes are based on emotion, not rational medical expertise. Courts supersede parents wishes all the time when the parents' wishes are potentially harmful to their children. Kids are people, not property.
"Sometime it's more humane and ethical to let someone pass naturally than it is to experiment on them." - Not your decision. This is between the parents and their physician.
This is why I advocate for a two tiered structure. You may willingly relinquish all rights and liberty to your betters, but you speak for you and you alone.
Kids are evidently property of the government as highlighted by this case. Parents have no rights.
Without making this into a claim that they are equivalent situations, are you ever okay with the government *requiring* someone to get medical care for a child (if they're rejecting it due to religious/ideological reasons, for example) or punishing parents if they reject medical care and the child suffers lasting harm or death?3 -
janejellyroll wrote: »
Socialized healthcare makes a profit? Military healthcare is for profit? Don't think so.There is just ONE reason that healthcare is expensive in the US............................................profit. Until the US becomes a not for profit venture, health care costs for people are just going to keep rising. And really we could have a decent government healthcare system if we diverted money to it. Problem is, taxpayer money is diverted to other profit ventures that benefit people in politics more than it does the people themselves.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
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Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Every healthcare system is for profit. Are you suggesting that bureaucrats work for free?
Lots of countries don't have people pay insurance on healthcare and do just fine. Our own would be health care for the military. I grew up an Air Force brat and even today, my retired parents (both past 85 years old) get great healthcare at NO COST to them.You can never have decent healthcare without a motive of profit. This is the primary reason healthcare costs have risen beyond the rest of the consumer index - deliberate insertion of middlemen (government and insurance).
Lol, wouldn't that be socialized medicine then? Affordability for ALL and not just the elite? And who's keeping big pharma and insurance companies happy? The people getting their palms greased by them. Health care shouldn't be for capital gain. I've personally worked in it and with people who suffer who busted their *kitten* working for decades only to use their retirement to pay for medical help not covered by insurance (mostly prescriptions drugs).If you allowed free market forces to compete then you would not have instances where Epipens rose to prohibitive prices. You would have competitive companies offering products at a reduced price to gain market share. Government is the problem, not the solution.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
It's rare that someone actually touts the VA as an shining example of socialized medicine, but if that's what you want to hang you hat on - be my guest. I'm a veteran and I should get no cost medical; however the scheduling and waiting lines make full time employment and service from the VA nearly impossible, unless you enjoy 6 months waiting lines.
Who's keeping big pharma happy? Well first you would have to research the relationship between what the congressional committees allow pharma to charge. A convoluted relationship between market wholesalers, market retailers, insurance companies, hospitals, and any other select buying groups...and of course the government. Pretty simple when you see who's providing the bulk of campaign contributions though.
Shouldn't is not a rational argument. You are actually making an argument against insurance, not for socialized medicine. Remove insurance, remove government. Unleash the free market and the cost of medicine will return to normal.
Here's a lovely story highlighting the ultimate outcome of socialized medicine:
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-40454177
In summary the bureaucrats decide who lives and who dies. When taken to higher authority the judges at the European Court of Human Rights concluded that further treatment would "continue to cause Charlie significant harm". Regardless of a US physician who has offered an alternative treatment the hospital will not release the child to the parent's custody.
I think some VA clinics must be more impacted than others, then. Because my husband was able to get his latest appointment within 10 days. That's much faster than the three month wait I had to get an appointment just to see a GP with private insurance.
I'm not sure the story you brought up about the terminally ill kid is relevant to this thread. Terminally ill patients are allowed to die naturally in non-socialized medical systems, too. This poor kid's parents were grasping at straws to try an experimental treatment that had never been tried before on his condition and that multiple experts agreed would not have reversed his brain damage. So best case scenario, this kid lives longer, but in no better shape than he currently is. How is that a good thing? The potential treatment being offered would not have cured this child, but only "possibly" prolonged his life, while "potentially" causing additional harm/genetic mutations/pain/discomfort to him. IMO, not all medical intervention is a good thing. Sometimes it's best to let nature take it's course. I wouldn't want to be kept alive with a degenerative disorder that has destroyed much of my brain, and caused me to lose all normal functioning with no hope of improvement - only the possibility of living longer in that condition. I feel bad for the parents - no one wants to lose a child - but I can't fault the medical team in this case, and I wouldn't exactly call the doctors caring for him "bureaucrats."
I can understand why proponents of socialized medicine would want to downplay this story and all others like it. This isn't a matter of being allowed to die - it's one of a bureaucratic panel deciding that a child will die in direct conflict with the wishes of the parents. Of course you wouldn't want to use a term such as bureaucrat as it hurts your narrative. How else would you describe the European Court of Human Rights?
This isn't about you. Your opinion in this matter is irrelevant, as is mine. The only opinions that matter are that of the parents and the treating physicians, but this is never the case in a socialized structure. What is truly horrific is that the state now refuses to release custody of the parent's child to the parents.
To be expected as in a socialized system the individual has no unalienable rights. Your rights are those the state allows you to have.
The treating physicians DID give their opinion and the court upheld it.
In contradiction to the wishes of the parents and other physicians.
A court of bureaucrats superseded the wishes of parents. Despicable.
Which "other physicians"? You mean the guy who is willing to accept their money for his medical research in exchange for attempting "treatment," but who also acknowledged that the treatment was unlikely to work? Because all the current treating physicians and experts in the field were saying that the treatment has the potential to prolong discomfort or cause pain to the child, without much chance for benefit. Sometimes it's more humane and ethical to let someone pass naturally than it is to experiment on them. Clearly the parents' wishes are based on emotion, not rational medical expertise. Courts supersede parents wishes all the time when the parents' wishes are potentially harmful to their children. Kids are people, not property.
"Sometime it's more humane and ethical to let someone pass naturally than it is to experiment on them." - Not your decision. This is between the parents and their physician.
This is why I advocate for a two tiered structure. You may willingly relinquish all rights and liberty to your betters, but you speak for you and you alone.
Kids are evidently property of the government as highlighted by this case. Parents have no rights.
Without making this into a claim that they are equivalent situations, are you ever okay with the government *requiring* someone to get medical care for a child (if they're rejecting it due to religious/ideological reasons, for example) or punishing parents if they reject medical care and the child suffers lasting harm or death?
In regards to the US Constitution the citizen is the ultimate holder of all rights, society has no inherent rights and charged to ensure that citizen's rights are protected.
Parents are expected to protect their children and act in their best interests. The government is expected to do the same. I don't know how anyone could make a rational argument rejecting care resulting in suffering or harm.1 -
So then you agree that the baby should NOT be subjected to experimental treatment that may result in further suffering or harm with little to no benefit?
I also agree that his parents should be allowed to bring him home to die, rather than in the hospital.1 -
So then you agree that the baby should NOT be subjected to experimental treatment that may result in further suffering or harm with little to no benefit?
I also agree that his parents should be allowed to bring him home to die, rather than in the hospital.
The child is hooked to a lot of hospital equipment for life support that may not be transferable to the home, and most likely that the baby would immediately pass away once the life support equipment is turned off.2 -
So then you agree that the baby should NOT be subjected to experimental treatment that may result in further suffering or harm with little to no benefit?
I also agree that his parents should be allowed to bring him home to die, rather than in the hospital.
No I stand by the fact that this is a decision to be made by the parents and the physicians.
There is no such thing as certainty in medicine - only risk management.
The overreach of government in this case is abhorrent, but sadly predictable.2 -
This is precisely the outcome of socialized medicine.
Citation please?
Show me where an insurance company refused to release a child into the care of a physician wanting to attempt an experimental course of therapy.
I'll accept one from your alleged "long list".
CPS or Child Protective Services. I don't need a list. You'd be amazed at how quickly they can take your child and strip you of parental rights with very little evidence. Especially if a doctor is claiming you are failing to treat you sick child properly. If you think it doesn't count, then go stick your little head back in the sand.
1 -
This is precisely the outcome of socialized medicine.
Citation please?
Show me where an insurance company refused to release a child into the care of a physician wanting to attempt an experimental course of therapy.
I'll accept one from your alleged "long list".
CPS or Child Protective Services. I don't need a list. You'd be amazed at how quickly they can take your child and strip you of parental rights with very little evidence. Especially if a doctor is claiming you are failing to treat you sick child properly. If you think it doesn't count, then go stick your little head back in the sand.
Depends on the state...
The courts have ruled both ways over the last 70 years.
It's not as black and white as you would like it to be.
0 -
So then you agree that the baby should NOT be subjected to experimental treatment that may result in further suffering or harm with little to no benefit?
I also agree that his parents should be allowed to bring him home to die, rather than in the hospital.
The child is hooked to a lot of hospital equipment for life support that may not be transferable to the home, and most likely that the baby would immediately pass away once the life support equipment is turned off.
Well, that's the point. To let him pass. And most basic life support equipment is portable. I know this from personal experience.0 -
Here's a lovely story highlighting the ultimate outcome of socialized medicine:
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-40454177
In summary the bureaucrats decide who lives and who dies. When taken to higher authority the judges at the European Court of Human Rights concluded that further treatment would "continue to cause Charlie significant harm". Regardless of a US physician who has offered an alternative treatment the hospital will not release the child to the parent's custody.
If that kid had been a poor American, he'd have died a long time ago thanks to our idiotic, expensive system.
But by all means, keep parroting dumb talking points based on .000001% of cases while ignoring the other 99.999999% of outcomes.
I consider myself a conservative, and looking at the data from literally every Western country that's not the US, it's clear that single-payer is the fiscally conservative option.
And no, single-payer does nothing to keep wealthy people from using doctors outside of the system, or keep doctors from working outside of the system. It's the cheapest, most humane option available while retaining our beloved capitalist system for those who can afford it.
9 -
My insurance does not penalize those who are over their BMI or are obese, but instead rewards those who are fit or 'shape up' with perks, discounts, and gift cards. I think it's great! Information has to be submitted by your mds and also labwork.2
-
Carillon_Campanello wrote: »Slippery slope IMHO.
1st...smokers.
2nd...obesity.
next????
Genetic predispositions based on DNA.
What you ate for dinner.
How much sleep you get.
How fast you drive your car to work.
What type of activities you do or don't participate in after work hours.
I get it, but most of those activities affect my life insurance rates!
0 -
Socialized healthcare makes a profit? Military healthcare is for profit? Don't think so.There is just ONE reason that healthcare is expensive in the US............................................profit. Until the US becomes a not for profit venture, health care costs for people are just going to keep rising. And really we could have a decent government healthcare system if we diverted money to it. Problem is, taxpayer money is diverted to other profit ventures that benefit people in politics more than it does the people themselves.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Every healthcare system is for profit. Are you suggesting that bureaucrats work for free?
Lots of countries don't have people pay insurance on healthcare and do just fine. Our own would be health care for the military. I grew up an Air Force brat and even today, my retired parents (both past 85 years old) get great healthcare at NO COST to them.You can never have decent healthcare without a motive of profit. This is the primary reason healthcare costs have risen beyond the rest of the consumer index - deliberate insertion of middlemen (government and insurance).
Lol, wouldn't that be socialized medicine then? Affordability for ALL and not just the elite? And who's keeping big pharma and insurance companies happy? The people getting their palms greased by them. Health care shouldn't be for capital gain. I've personally worked in it and with people who suffer who busted their *kitten* working for decades only to use their retirement to pay for medical help not covered by insurance (mostly prescriptions drugs).If you allowed free market forces to compete then you would not have instances where Epipens rose to prohibitive prices. You would have competitive companies offering products at a reduced price to gain market share. Government is the problem, not the solution.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
It's rare that someone actually touts the VA as an shining example of socialized medicine, but if that's what you want to hang you hat on - be my guest. I'm a veteran and I should get no cost medical; however the scheduling and waiting lines make full time employment and service from the VA nearly impossible, unless you enjoy 6 months waiting lines.
Who's keeping big pharma happy? Well first you would have to research the relationship between what the congressional committees allow pharma to charge. A convoluted relationship between market wholesalers, market retailers, insurance companies, hospitals, and any other select buying groups...and of course the government. Pretty simple when you see who's providing the bulk of campaign contributions though.
Shouldn't is not a rational argument. You are actually making an argument against insurance, not for socialized medicine. Remove insurance, remove government. Unleash the free market and the cost of medicine will return to normal.
Here's a lovely story highlighting the ultimate outcome of socialized medicine:
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-40454177
In summary the bureaucrats decide who lives and who dies. When taken to higher authority the judges at the European Court of Human Rights concluded that further treatment would "continue to cause Charlie significant harm". Regardless of a US physician who has offered an alternative treatment the hospital will not release the child to the parent's custody.
I think it's important to rebut this misleading statement. The "alternative treatment" is admitted BY THOSE OFFERING IT to have zero potential to help whatsoever. The child is unable to respond but still able to feel pain. He is going to die no matter what happens. Again, the US facility offering the treatment freely admits the treatment would be futile. It's not usual for European courts to rule on whether a child gets medical treatment, but in this case doctors felt it was crossing a line into abuse. This sort of ruling is sometimes made even in the United States.3 -
hmm. just adding on that my insurance agent kid did not manage to qualify to get'insurance because of being obese. the insurance company is not even asking to pay a higher premium but totally rejected. at the time the kid was rejected he was actually fit n was serving in the military'yet the insurance company rejected due to overweight.0
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