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Do you think obese/overweight people should pay more for health insurance?
Replies
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PopGoesTheCoyote wrote: »Is there a benefit to charging obese people more for healthcare? What is it?
It's the same logic that leads to some drivers getting charged more than others for auto insurance. If the company calculates that you're likely to cost more to insure, they'll often charge you more.5 -
janejellyroll wrote: »PopGoesTheCoyote wrote: »Is there a benefit to charging obese people more for healthcare? What is it?
It's the same logic that leads to some drivers getting charged more than others for auto insurance. If the company calculates that you're likely to cost more to insure, they'll often charge you more.
Then they should charge women for being at risk to get pregnant, people who live in more polluted areas because they're at greater risk for cancer and other pollution-related problems, anyone who gets an autoimmune disease (AIDS, Hashimoto's, etc.), anyone who gets cancer because they got cancer and even if it gets removed, there is a risk of it returning to the lungs and the liver and more, people over 65 because they're at risk of more diseases and healthcare, parents with children because children are at risk for illness, parents whose children are disabled because that disability is going to be costly to the insurance company, people who drive instead of walk because driving is more likely to get you into an accident and walking is more likely to increase your health since you won't be as fat, and absolutely everyone who refuses to get any vaccines at all.
It's the same logic that leads to drivers getting charged more than others for auto insurance. If the company calculates that you're likely to cost more to insure, they'll often charge you more.
And to hit the "choice" aspect of this all, that being obese is a choice, smoking being a choice; having children is a choice too.
Autobahn66's post hits the real concerns better. Charging obese people more healthcare will not solve the problem of obesity. It will just add to the problem and maybe the best thing that will come out of it is a few people will get to feel sadistic vindication that fat people are getting punished.5 -
PopGoesTheCoyote wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »PopGoesTheCoyote wrote: »Is there a benefit to charging obese people more for healthcare? What is it?
It's the same logic that leads to some drivers getting charged more than others for auto insurance. If the company calculates that you're likely to cost more to insure, they'll often charge you more.
Then they should charge women for being at risk to get pregnant, people who live in more polluted areas because they're at greater risk for cancer and other pollution-related problems, anyone who gets an autoimmune disease (AIDS, Hashimoto's, etc.), anyone who gets cancer because they got cancer and even if it gets removed, there is a risk of it returning to the lungs and the liver and more, people over 65 because they're at risk of more diseases and healthcare, parents with children because children are at risk for illness, parents whose children are disabled because that disability is going to be costly to the insurance company, people who drive instead of walk because driving is more likely to get you into an accident and walking is more likely to increase your health since you won't be as fat, and absolutely everyone who refuses to get any vaccines at all.
It's the same logic that leads to drivers getting charged more than others for auto insurance. If the company calculates that you're likely to cost more to insure, they'll often charge you more.
And to hit the "choice" aspect of this all, that being obese is a choice, smoking being a choice; having children is a choice too.
Autobahn66's post hits the real concerns better. Charging obese people more healthcare will not solve the problem of obesity. It will just add to the problem and maybe the best thing that will come out of it is a few people will get to feel sadistic vindication that fat people are getting punished.
I guess I don't see the decision to reproduce as a "risk" as much as I see it as a "necessary condition for the species to continue existing" and the people who choose to reproduce will then usually pay more for insurance (unless someone else is adopting the children).
I'm not necessarily an advocate for charging the obese more, I'm just pointing out I can certainly understand the business reasons an insurance company might want to do so. On a population level, excess weight is an absolute contribution to health care costs and it's something that can be tracked on a level that is impossible for things like "do they sometimes choose to walk instead of drive?"
Being obese IS a choice on a level that just isn't true for things like being over 65 or living in an area with pollution.6 -
kristingjertsen wrote: »Local Farmers Markets in our area double WIC coupons and SNAP benefits. This means that families can access healthy fresh vegetables, greens, and fruit in season. There are also classes available to teach families how to maximize the value of their SNAP and WIC benefits by learning to cook from scratch and choose healthier options to feed themselves and their children. Having access to a stove and an area to cook can also make it harder to choose healthy food. At one point in our lives as a family we lived in a hotel for several months. Father with a job, heavily pregnant mother, and a three year old boy. My husband had a job that paid decently, but we were struggling to find housing in a high poverty community where many units were Section 8 and the few small houses and apartments that we could afford were in awful shape and the nearest bigger city was Wichita, Kansas more than an hour and a half away. With me due to give birth within two months, we didn't want to risk it. We ate a lot of meals out and I spent many hours entertaining our son at the local park to get us out of the tiny hotel room. Humbling experience that changed my perception of just how difficult the lives of some people are. I remember a group of kids coming up to me while I read to my son at the Park. They asked what we were doing, could they listen too, and where did I get the book? I told them about the public library just down the street and that they could check out books for free. They had never learned this. After that I bought boxes of cookies and encouraged them to join our reading session. I realized after a little girl woofed down 4 cookies that she hadn't had breakfast or lunch that I would also bring some sandwiches. It can be cheaper to get a fast food hamburger and fries that to make a healthy meal when you don't have access to a stove, grocery store, or enough money to buy better quality food.
THIS
Exactly this.
Been there. Done that. (by which I mean very similar)
I do want to add also: Yes. Farmer’s Markets are usually wonderful with SNAP and such.
The problem is that Farmers Markets tend to be in ritzy areas. And only open during very limited hours. So, if you’re working? Or have limited transportation? Tough nuggets. No SNAP farmers market bonus for you.1 -
MargaretYakoda wrote: »kristingjertsen wrote: »Local Farmers Markets in our area double WIC coupons and SNAP benefits. This means that families can access healthy fresh vegetables, greens, and fruit in season. There are also classes available to teach families how to maximize the value of their SNAP and WIC benefits by learning to cook from scratch and choose healthier options to feed themselves and their children. Having access to a stove and an area to cook can also make it harder to choose healthy food. At one point in our lives as a family we lived in a hotel for several months. Father with a job, heavily pregnant mother, and a three year old boy. My husband had a job that paid decently, but we were struggling to find housing in a high poverty community where many units were Section 8 and the few small houses and apartments that we could afford were in awful shape and the nearest bigger city was Wichita, Kansas more than an hour and a half away. With me due to give birth within two months, we didn't want to risk it. We ate a lot of meals out and I spent many hours entertaining our son at the local park to get us out of the tiny hotel room. Humbling experience that changed my perception of just how difficult the lives of some people are. I remember a group of kids coming up to me while I read to my son at the Park. They asked what we were doing, could they listen too, and where did I get the book? I told them about the public library just down the street and that they could check out books for free. They had never learned this. After that I bought boxes of cookies and encouraged them to join our reading session. I realized after a little girl woofed down 4 cookies that she hadn't had breakfast or lunch that I would also bring some sandwiches. It can be cheaper to get a fast food hamburger and fries that to make a healthy meal when you don't have access to a stove, grocery store, or enough money to buy better quality food.
THIS
Exactly this.
Been there. Done that. (by which I mean very similar)
I do want to add also: Yes. Farmer’s Markets are usually wonderful with SNAP and such.
The problem is that Farmers Markets tend to be in ritzy areas. And only open during very limited hours. So, if you’re working? Or have limited transportation? Tough nuggets. No SNAP farmers market bonus for you.
I feel like this is very community-reliant. For example, I live in a city that is fortunate enough to have several different farmer's markets, including many that are extremely accessable via public transportation and not in high income areas. There are also options that are available outside the stereotypical farmer's market hours.
I know this isn't the case everywhere and there is a lot of work to be done, but this is a good example of something that can be impacted on a community level if there is a grassroots desire to do it.2 -
janejellyroll wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »kristingjertsen wrote: »Local Farmers Markets in our area double WIC coupons and SNAP benefits. This means that families can access healthy fresh vegetables, greens, and fruit in season. There are also classes available to teach families how to maximize the value of their SNAP and WIC benefits by learning to cook from scratch and choose healthier options to feed themselves and their children. Having access to a stove and an area to cook can also make it harder to choose healthy food. At one point in our lives as a family we lived in a hotel for several months. Father with a job, heavily pregnant mother, and a three year old boy. My husband had a job that paid decently, but we were struggling to find housing in a high poverty community where many units were Section 8 and the few small houses and apartments that we could afford were in awful shape and the nearest bigger city was Wichita, Kansas more than an hour and a half away. With me due to give birth within two months, we didn't want to risk it. We ate a lot of meals out and I spent many hours entertaining our son at the local park to get us out of the tiny hotel room. Humbling experience that changed my perception of just how difficult the lives of some people are. I remember a group of kids coming up to me while I read to my son at the Park. They asked what we were doing, could they listen too, and where did I get the book? I told them about the public library just down the street and that they could check out books for free. They had never learned this. After that I bought boxes of cookies and encouraged them to join our reading session. I realized after a little girl woofed down 4 cookies that she hadn't had breakfast or lunch that I would also bring some sandwiches. It can be cheaper to get a fast food hamburger and fries that to make a healthy meal when you don't have access to a stove, grocery store, or enough money to buy better quality food.
THIS
Exactly this.
Been there. Done that. (by which I mean very similar)
I do want to add also: Yes. Farmer’s Markets are usually wonderful with SNAP and such.
The problem is that Farmers Markets tend to be in ritzy areas. And only open during very limited hours. So, if you’re working? Or have limited transportation? Tough nuggets. No SNAP farmers market bonus for you.
I feel like this is very community-reliant. For example, I live in a city that is fortunate enough to have several different farmer's markets, including many that are extremely accessable via public transportation and not in high income areas. There are also options that are available outside the stereotypical farmer's market hours.
I know this isn't the case everywhere and there is a lot of work to be done, but this is a good example of something that can be impacted on a community level if there is a grassroots desire to do it.
Agreed.
We’re rural. So the Farmers Market is in the county seat, and one kind of central small town twenty miles up the road. Saturday in one spot, Sunday in the other.
I do know most of the local farmers donate what they can to the food bank.
But if you’re way out in the sticks? Or you work on weekends in this heavily tourist dependent town? (most tourist associated jobs mean working weekends) Again. Tough nuggets.
And there is a LOT of grassroots support for assisting those who are struggling. But it’s not enough. I’m not sure if it will ever be enough.0 -
janejellyroll wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »kristingjertsen wrote: »Local Farmers Markets in our area double WIC coupons and SNAP benefits. This means that families can access healthy fresh vegetables, greens, and fruit in season. There are also classes available to teach families how to maximize the value of their SNAP and WIC benefits by learning to cook from scratch and choose healthier options to feed themselves and their children. Having access to a stove and an area to cook can also make it harder to choose healthy food. At one point in our lives as a family we lived in a hotel for several months. Father with a job, heavily pregnant mother, and a three year old boy. My husband had a job that paid decently, but we were struggling to find housing in a high poverty community where many units were Section 8 and the few small houses and apartments that we could afford were in awful shape and the nearest bigger city was Wichita, Kansas more than an hour and a half away. With me due to give birth within two months, we didn't want to risk it. We ate a lot of meals out and I spent many hours entertaining our son at the local park to get us out of the tiny hotel room. Humbling experience that changed my perception of just how difficult the lives of some people are. I remember a group of kids coming up to me while I read to my son at the Park. They asked what we were doing, could they listen too, and where did I get the book? I told them about the public library just down the street and that they could check out books for free. They had never learned this. After that I bought boxes of cookies and encouraged them to join our reading session. I realized after a little girl woofed down 4 cookies that she hadn't had breakfast or lunch that I would also bring some sandwiches. It can be cheaper to get a fast food hamburger and fries that to make a healthy meal when you don't have access to a stove, grocery store, or enough money to buy better quality food.
THIS
Exactly this.
Been there. Done that. (by which I mean very similar)
I do want to add also: Yes. Farmer’s Markets are usually wonderful with SNAP and such.
The problem is that Farmers Markets tend to be in ritzy areas. And only open during very limited hours. So, if you’re working? Or have limited transportation? Tough nuggets. No SNAP farmers market bonus for you.
I feel like this is very community-reliant. For example, I live in a city that is fortunate enough to have several different farmer's markets, including many that are extremely accessable via public transportation and not in high income areas. There are also options that are available outside the stereotypical farmer's market hours.
I know this isn't the case everywhere and there is a lot of work to be done, but this is a good example of something that can be impacted on a community level if there is a grassroots desire to do it.
I wish that had been the case when I lived in MS. I lived by the ocean, but only the "ritzy" city one city over really had a farmer's market and it offered no benefits to WIC or SNAP participants, but also, there was no bus transportation that ran to it from our larger city. There were farms in our area, but again, if you had no car, you weren't going to drive to them. Most of the convenient places to walk to had little or no fresh produce and you really needed a car to drive to any of the larger grocery stores that carried better/healthier options.
We did have roadside stands, though. Usually selling tomatoes, potatoes, watermelons, sometimes pumpkins and cucumbers. Oh, and boiled peanuts. And once in a great blue moon, I'd see a guy selling flats of strawberries.
For being one of the largest cities in the state, the public transit sucked. And there are a lot of places in the southern U.S. like that.
I imagine where I live now is probably going to be quite a bit different, but I'm still figuring that one out.
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They already do in France, my half sister is morbidly obese and she has to pay a premium for health care. But in France it's a whole different culture, they don't care about offending overweight people.7
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They already do in France, my half sister is morbidly obese and she has to pay a premium for health care. But in France it's a whole different culture, they don't care about offending overweight people.
If you think people in the US care about offending overweight people…. I have a bridge in Brooklyn I can sell cheap….7 -
MargaretYakoda wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »kristingjertsen wrote: »Local Farmers Markets in our area double WIC coupons and SNAP benefits. This means that families can access healthy fresh vegetables, greens, and fruit in season. There are also classes available to teach families how to maximize the value of their SNAP and WIC benefits by learning to cook from scratch and choose healthier options to feed themselves and their children. Having access to a stove and an area to cook can also make it harder to choose healthy food. At one point in our lives as a family we lived in a hotel for several months. Father with a job, heavily pregnant mother, and a three year old boy. My husband had a job that paid decently, but we were struggling to find housing in a high poverty community where many units were Section 8 and the few small houses and apartments that we could afford were in awful shape and the nearest bigger city was Wichita, Kansas more than an hour and a half away. With me due to give birth within two months, we didn't want to risk it. We ate a lot of meals out and I spent many hours entertaining our son at the local park to get us out of the tiny hotel room. Humbling experience that changed my perception of just how difficult the lives of some people are. I remember a group of kids coming up to me while I read to my son at the Park. They asked what we were doing, could they listen too, and where did I get the book? I told them about the public library just down the street and that they could check out books for free. They had never learned this. After that I bought boxes of cookies and encouraged them to join our reading session. I realized after a little girl woofed down 4 cookies that she hadn't had breakfast or lunch that I would also bring some sandwiches. It can be cheaper to get a fast food hamburger and fries that to make a healthy meal when you don't have access to a stove, grocery store, or enough money to buy better quality food.
THIS
Exactly this.
Been there. Done that. (by which I mean very similar)
I do want to add also: Yes. Farmer’s Markets are usually wonderful with SNAP and such.
The problem is that Farmers Markets tend to be in ritzy areas. And only open during very limited hours. So, if you’re working? Or have limited transportation? Tough nuggets. No SNAP farmers market bonus for you.
I feel like this is very community-reliant. For example, I live in a city that is fortunate enough to have several different farmer's markets, including many that are extremely accessable via public transportation and not in high income areas. There are also options that are available outside the stereotypical farmer's market hours.
I know this isn't the case everywhere and there is a lot of work to be done, but this is a good example of something that can be impacted on a community level if there is a grassroots desire to do it.
Agreed.
We’re rural. So the Farmers Market is in the county seat, and one kind of central small town twenty miles up the road. Saturday in one spot, Sunday in the other.
I do know most of the local farmers donate what they can to the food bank.
But if you’re way out in the sticks? Or you work on weekends in this heavily tourist dependent town? (most tourist associated jobs mean working weekends) Again. Tough nuggets.
And there is a LOT of grassroots support for assisting those who are struggling. But it’s not enough. I’m not sure if it will ever be enough.
I visited the farmers market recently with my mother and was shocked. Our farmers market is horrifyingly expensive, compared to the grocery. And food there is not necessary local or grown by farmers - it’s common for booths to ship in food from big growers and sell it at stalls. But the main thing is the expense, a pint of berries more than twice the price of the ones at the store, ditto peaches, squash, corn, crowder peas. Ended up spending $80 on a small plastic bag of one meal and a few snacks. I’m wondering if people who suggest to shop at Farmers markets live somewhere where the situation is different.3 -
rheddmobile wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »kristingjertsen wrote: »Local Farmers Markets in our area double WIC coupons and SNAP benefits. This means that families can access healthy fresh vegetables, greens, and fruit in season. There are also classes available to teach families how to maximize the value of their SNAP and WIC benefits by learning to cook from scratch and choose healthier options to feed themselves and their children. Having access to a stove and an area to cook can also make it harder to choose healthy food. At one point in our lives as a family we lived in a hotel for several months. Father with a job, heavily pregnant mother, and a three year old boy. My husband had a job that paid decently, but we were struggling to find housing in a high poverty community where many units were Section 8 and the few small houses and apartments that we could afford were in awful shape and the nearest bigger city was Wichita, Kansas more than an hour and a half away. With me due to give birth within two months, we didn't want to risk it. We ate a lot of meals out and I spent many hours entertaining our son at the local park to get us out of the tiny hotel room. Humbling experience that changed my perception of just how difficult the lives of some people are. I remember a group of kids coming up to me while I read to my son at the Park. They asked what we were doing, could they listen too, and where did I get the book? I told them about the public library just down the street and that they could check out books for free. They had never learned this. After that I bought boxes of cookies and encouraged them to join our reading session. I realized after a little girl woofed down 4 cookies that she hadn't had breakfast or lunch that I would also bring some sandwiches. It can be cheaper to get a fast food hamburger and fries that to make a healthy meal when you don't have access to a stove, grocery store, or enough money to buy better quality food.
THIS
Exactly this.
Been there. Done that. (by which I mean very similar)
I do want to add also: Yes. Farmer’s Markets are usually wonderful with SNAP and such.
The problem is that Farmers Markets tend to be in ritzy areas. And only open during very limited hours. So, if you’re working? Or have limited transportation? Tough nuggets. No SNAP farmers market bonus for you.
I feel like this is very community-reliant. For example, I live in a city that is fortunate enough to have several different farmer's markets, including many that are extremely accessable via public transportation and not in high income areas. There are also options that are available outside the stereotypical farmer's market hours.
I know this isn't the case everywhere and there is a lot of work to be done, but this is a good example of something that can be impacted on a community level if there is a grassroots desire to do it.
Agreed.
We’re rural. So the Farmers Market is in the county seat, and one kind of central small town twenty miles up the road. Saturday in one spot, Sunday in the other.
I do know most of the local farmers donate what they can to the food bank.
But if you’re way out in the sticks? Or you work on weekends in this heavily tourist dependent town? (most tourist associated jobs mean working weekends) Again. Tough nuggets.
And there is a LOT of grassroots support for assisting those who are struggling. But it’s not enough. I’m not sure if it will ever be enough.
I visited the farmers market recently with my mother and was shocked. Our farmers market is horrifyingly expensive, compared to the grocery. And food there is not necessary local or grown by farmers - it’s common for booths to ship in food from big growers and sell it at stalls. But the main thing is the expense, a pint of berries more than twice the price of the ones at the store, ditto peaches, squash, corn, crowder peas. Ended up spending $80 on a small plastic bag of one meal and a few snacks. I’m wondering if people who suggest to shop at Farmers markets live somewhere where the situation is different.
Yup.
My most recent visit to our Farmers Market I bought $15/pound locally made goat cheese, and a $12 can of locally caught (boat has a home port here) tuna, infused with garlic and lemon. Oh, and some very expensive but delicious ginger honey pecans.
Yes they have fresh veggies. But those same veggies - at the same price - can be purchased at our Food CoOp (also extremely bougie, but at least it’s on a bus route and open 7 days a week)1 -
rheddmobile wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »kristingjertsen wrote: »Local Farmers Markets in our area double WIC coupons and SNAP benefits. This means that families can access healthy fresh vegetables, greens, and fruit in season. There are also classes available to teach families how to maximize the value of their SNAP and WIC benefits by learning to cook from scratch and choose healthier options to feed themselves and their children. Having access to a stove and an area to cook can also make it harder to choose healthy food. At one point in our lives as a family we lived in a hotel for several months. Father with a job, heavily pregnant mother, and a three year old boy. My husband had a job that paid decently, but we were struggling to find housing in a high poverty community where many units were Section 8 and the few small houses and apartments that we could afford were in awful shape and the nearest bigger city was Wichita, Kansas more than an hour and a half away. With me due to give birth within two months, we didn't want to risk it. We ate a lot of meals out and I spent many hours entertaining our son at the local park to get us out of the tiny hotel room. Humbling experience that changed my perception of just how difficult the lives of some people are. I remember a group of kids coming up to me while I read to my son at the Park. They asked what we were doing, could they listen too, and where did I get the book? I told them about the public library just down the street and that they could check out books for free. They had never learned this. After that I bought boxes of cookies and encouraged them to join our reading session. I realized after a little girl woofed down 4 cookies that she hadn't had breakfast or lunch that I would also bring some sandwiches. It can be cheaper to get a fast food hamburger and fries that to make a healthy meal when you don't have access to a stove, grocery store, or enough money to buy better quality food.
THIS
Exactly this.
Been there. Done that. (by which I mean very similar)
I do want to add also: Yes. Farmer’s Markets are usually wonderful with SNAP and such.
The problem is that Farmers Markets tend to be in ritzy areas. And only open during very limited hours. So, if you’re working? Or have limited transportation? Tough nuggets. No SNAP farmers market bonus for you.
I feel like this is very community-reliant. For example, I live in a city that is fortunate enough to have several different farmer's markets, including many that are extremely accessable via public transportation and not in high income areas. There are also options that are available outside the stereotypical farmer's market hours.
I know this isn't the case everywhere and there is a lot of work to be done, but this is a good example of something that can be impacted on a community level if there is a grassroots desire to do it.
Agreed.
We’re rural. So the Farmers Market is in the county seat, and one kind of central small town twenty miles up the road. Saturday in one spot, Sunday in the other.
I do know most of the local farmers donate what they can to the food bank.
But if you’re way out in the sticks? Or you work on weekends in this heavily tourist dependent town? (most tourist associated jobs mean working weekends) Again. Tough nuggets.
And there is a LOT of grassroots support for assisting those who are struggling. But it’s not enough. I’m not sure if it will ever be enough.
I visited the farmers market recently with my mother and was shocked. Our farmers market is horrifyingly expensive, compared to the grocery. And food there is not necessary local or grown by farmers - it’s common for booths to ship in food from big growers and sell it at stalls. But the main thing is the expense, a pint of berries more than twice the price of the ones at the store, ditto peaches, squash, corn, crowder peas. Ended up spending $80 on a small plastic bag of one meal and a few snacks. I’m wondering if people who suggest to shop at Farmers markets live somewhere where the situation is different.
I think communities do differ.
Reading all of the above, I was reflecting that in my mid-sized Michigan city, we have quite a few farmers markets on different schedules and in different parts of the metro area. At least two of them are in central-city areas that are more remote from good grocery stores (though such stores are near to most areas and are on the bus lines), and they are located in lower-income residential areas. Both offer the double-up food bucks for people receiving food assistance.
One is run by a neighborhood center that has a diversity of programs to help people learn how to cook a wider range of foods, learn how plant/tend gardens. It offers seeds and plant starts at the start of gardening season, includes an incubator kitchen where people can (and do) start food-based businesses on a small scale then grow them to food truck or their own physical locations (as several have already), etc. The other is a bit smaller and less diverse (in produce selection) and is sponsored by an inner-city church.
Both of these have produce vendors that come from the greater metro area, and very nearly all the foods are grown locally. (I'm betting the coffee roaster's beans are non-local! 😉) Some of the produce even comes from greenhouses in the central city itself, and other local growers have greenhouses or hoop houses that let them extend the season greatly. The neighborhood center's farmers market is a year-round thing, with locally grown produce all year long. (In Winter, some of it greenhouse, some storage veggies like squash, some root crops that can be mulched/covered and dug in Winter, etc.) The selection is markedly smaller in Winter, of course.
I agree that there are expensive options on offer, those things more artisan/locavore stuff than inexpensive. However, there are almost always some good bargains to be had, maybe not the premium harder-to-grow tender fresh fruit of the moment, but good, nutritious foods at reasonable prices. (One would need to be flexible about preferences to save money, which I recognize still has a whiff of unfairness to it.) One of the farms that sells at the neighborhood center's market maintains their own mini "produce bank" someplace around there, with fresh produce in a cooler, that people can take; and they post their phone number so they can replenish when needed. I'm not sure they'll do that all year, but are doing it during veggie bounty season, at least.
City farms are getting to be a bit of a thing, in Michigan, it seems like . . . especially places like Flint and greater Detroit, which had major population shrinkages over recent decades, so more open land (where abandoned homes were demolished or fell to arson, for example) that could be rededicated to urban farming experiments. How extensive that is in those places, and how robust it'll be over time, is unclear to me . . . but it seems to be happening, at least somewhat.3 -
Communities do differ.
But that doesn’t negate the problem with telling people in a blanket statement that shopping at a Farmer’s market is something they should do for better nutrition.
Emphasis on “blanket statement”
And I do enjoy my local farmers market. It’s just more reflective of the local tourist economy than it is helpful to people who are struggling either economically or with creating healthier eating habits. Although the people who run it do try.1 -
rheddmobile wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »kristingjertsen wrote: »Local Farmers Markets in our area double WIC coupons and SNAP benefits. This means that families can access healthy fresh vegetables, greens, and fruit in season. There are also classes available to teach families how to maximize the value of their SNAP and WIC benefits by learning to cook from scratch and choose healthier options to feed themselves and their children. Having access to a stove and an area to cook can also make it harder to choose healthy food. At one point in our lives as a family we lived in a hotel for several months. Father with a job, heavily pregnant mother, and a three year old boy. My husband had a job that paid decently, but we were struggling to find housing in a high poverty community where many units were Section 8 and the few small houses and apartments that we could afford were in awful shape and the nearest bigger city was Wichita, Kansas more than an hour and a half away. With me due to give birth within two months, we didn't want to risk it. We ate a lot of meals out and I spent many hours entertaining our son at the local park to get us out of the tiny hotel room. Humbling experience that changed my perception of just how difficult the lives of some people are. I remember a group of kids coming up to me while I read to my son at the Park. They asked what we were doing, could they listen too, and where did I get the book? I told them about the public library just down the street and that they could check out books for free. They had never learned this. After that I bought boxes of cookies and encouraged them to join our reading session. I realized after a little girl woofed down 4 cookies that she hadn't had breakfast or lunch that I would also bring some sandwiches. It can be cheaper to get a fast food hamburger and fries that to make a healthy meal when you don't have access to a stove, grocery store, or enough money to buy better quality food.
THIS
Exactly this.
Been there. Done that. (by which I mean very similar)
I do want to add also: Yes. Farmer’s Markets are usually wonderful with SNAP and such.
The problem is that Farmers Markets tend to be in ritzy areas. And only open during very limited hours. So, if you’re working? Or have limited transportation? Tough nuggets. No SNAP farmers market bonus for you.
I feel like this is very community-reliant. For example, I live in a city that is fortunate enough to have several different farmer's markets, including many that are extremely accessable via public transportation and not in high income areas. There are also options that are available outside the stereotypical farmer's market hours.
I know this isn't the case everywhere and there is a lot of work to be done, but this is a good example of something that can be impacted on a community level if there is a grassroots desire to do it.
Agreed.
We’re rural. So the Farmers Market is in the county seat, and one kind of central small town twenty miles up the road. Saturday in one spot, Sunday in the other.
I do know most of the local farmers donate what they can to the food bank.
But if you’re way out in the sticks? Or you work on weekends in this heavily tourist dependent town? (most tourist associated jobs mean working weekends) Again. Tough nuggets.
And there is a LOT of grassroots support for assisting those who are struggling. But it’s not enough. I’m not sure if it will ever be enough.
I visited the farmers market recently with my mother and was shocked. Our farmers market is horrifyingly expensive, compared to the grocery. And food there is not necessary local or grown by farmers - it’s common for booths to ship in food from big growers and sell it at stalls. But the main thing is the expense, a pint of berries more than twice the price of the ones at the store, ditto peaches, squash, corn, crowder peas. Ended up spending $80 on a small plastic bag of one meal and a few snacks. I’m wondering if people who suggest to shop at Farmers markets live somewhere where the situation is different.
I think communities do differ.
Reading all of the above, I was reflecting that in my mid-sized Michigan city, we have quite a few farmers markets on different schedules and in different parts of the metro area. At least two of them are in central-city areas that are more remote from good grocery stores (though such stores are near to most areas and are on the bus lines), and they are located in lower-income residential areas. Both offer the double-up food bucks for people receiving food assistance.
One is run by a neighborhood center that has a diversity of programs to help people learn how to cook a wider range of foods, learn how plant/tend gardens. It offers seeds and plant starts at the start of gardening season, includes an incubator kitchen where people can (and do) start food-based businesses on a small scale then grow them to food truck or their own physical locations (as several have already), etc. The other is a bit smaller and less diverse (in produce selection) and is sponsored by an inner-city church.
Both of these have produce vendors that come from the greater metro area, and very nearly all the foods are grown locally. (I'm betting the coffee roaster's beans are non-local! 😉) Some of the produce even comes from greenhouses in the central city itself, and other local growers have greenhouses or hoop houses that let them extend the season greatly. The neighborhood center's farmers market is a year-round thing, with locally grown produce all year long. (In Winter, some of it greenhouse, some storage veggies like squash, some root crops that can be mulched/covered and dug in Winter, etc.) The selection is markedly smaller in Winter, of course.
I agree that there are expensive options on offer, those things more artisan/locavore stuff than inexpensive. However, there are almost always some good bargains to be had, maybe not the premium harder-to-grow tender fresh fruit of the moment, but good, nutritious foods at reasonable prices. (One would need to be flexible about preferences to save money, which I recognize still has a whiff of unfairness to it.) One of the farms that sells at the neighborhood center's market maintains their own mini "produce bank" someplace around there, with fresh produce in a cooler, that people can take; and they post their phone number so they can replenish when needed. I'm not sure they'll do that all year, but are doing it during veggie bounty season, at least.
City farms are getting to be a bit of a thing, in Michigan, it seems like . . . especially places like Flint and greater Detroit, which had major population shrinkages over recent decades, so more open land (where abandoned homes were demolished or fell to arson, for example) that could be rededicated to urban farming experiments. How extensive that is in those places, and how robust it'll be over time, is unclear to me . . . but it seems to be happening, at least somewhat.
I didn’t actually see anything that wasn’t expensive. Tomatoes and peppers are so cheap at the moment that my neighbor keeps sneaking over and leaving bags of them on my doorstep because he can’t use them as fast as they grow, and it was something like 4 bucks for a single large tomato - not a fancy heirloom one, just a normal one.
Memphis is like that, though, shopping at Goodwill is like going into an expensive boutique, and antique shopping means looking at very pricey broken dusty junk. Give a Memphian a shop and they will jack the prices up, lose business, go bankrupt, and never think to lower prices.5 -
rheddmobile wrote: »rheddmobile wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »kristingjertsen wrote: »Local Farmers Markets in our area double WIC coupons and SNAP benefits. This means that families can access healthy fresh vegetables, greens, and fruit in season. There are also classes available to teach families how to maximize the value of their SNAP and WIC benefits by learning to cook from scratch and choose healthier options to feed themselves and their children. Having access to a stove and an area to cook can also make it harder to choose healthy food. At one point in our lives as a family we lived in a hotel for several months. Father with a job, heavily pregnant mother, and a three year old boy. My husband had a job that paid decently, but we were struggling to find housing in a high poverty community where many units were Section 8 and the few small houses and apartments that we could afford were in awful shape and the nearest bigger city was Wichita, Kansas more than an hour and a half away. With me due to give birth within two months, we didn't want to risk it. We ate a lot of meals out and I spent many hours entertaining our son at the local park to get us out of the tiny hotel room. Humbling experience that changed my perception of just how difficult the lives of some people are. I remember a group of kids coming up to me while I read to my son at the Park. They asked what we were doing, could they listen too, and where did I get the book? I told them about the public library just down the street and that they could check out books for free. They had never learned this. After that I bought boxes of cookies and encouraged them to join our reading session. I realized after a little girl woofed down 4 cookies that she hadn't had breakfast or lunch that I would also bring some sandwiches. It can be cheaper to get a fast food hamburger and fries that to make a healthy meal when you don't have access to a stove, grocery store, or enough money to buy better quality food.
THIS
Exactly this.
Been there. Done that. (by which I mean very similar)
I do want to add also: Yes. Farmer’s Markets are usually wonderful with SNAP and such.
The problem is that Farmers Markets tend to be in ritzy areas. And only open during very limited hours. So, if you’re working? Or have limited transportation? Tough nuggets. No SNAP farmers market bonus for you.
I feel like this is very community-reliant. For example, I live in a city that is fortunate enough to have several different farmer's markets, including many that are extremely accessable via public transportation and not in high income areas. There are also options that are available outside the stereotypical farmer's market hours.
I know this isn't the case everywhere and there is a lot of work to be done, but this is a good example of something that can be impacted on a community level if there is a grassroots desire to do it.
Agreed.
We’re rural. So the Farmers Market is in the county seat, and one kind of central small town twenty miles up the road. Saturday in one spot, Sunday in the other.
I do know most of the local farmers donate what they can to the food bank.
But if you’re way out in the sticks? Or you work on weekends in this heavily tourist dependent town? (most tourist associated jobs mean working weekends) Again. Tough nuggets.
And there is a LOT of grassroots support for assisting those who are struggling. But it’s not enough. I’m not sure if it will ever be enough.
I visited the farmers market recently with my mother and was shocked. Our farmers market is horrifyingly expensive, compared to the grocery. And food there is not necessary local or grown by farmers - it’s common for booths to ship in food from big growers and sell it at stalls. But the main thing is the expense, a pint of berries more than twice the price of the ones at the store, ditto peaches, squash, corn, crowder peas. Ended up spending $80 on a small plastic bag of one meal and a few snacks. I’m wondering if people who suggest to shop at Farmers markets live somewhere where the situation is different.
I think communities do differ.
Reading all of the above, I was reflecting that in my mid-sized Michigan city, we have quite a few farmers markets on different schedules and in different parts of the metro area. At least two of them are in central-city areas that are more remote from good grocery stores (though such stores are near to most areas and are on the bus lines), and they are located in lower-income residential areas. Both offer the double-up food bucks for people receiving food assistance.
One is run by a neighborhood center that has a diversity of programs to help people learn how to cook a wider range of foods, learn how plant/tend gardens. It offers seeds and plant starts at the start of gardening season, includes an incubator kitchen where people can (and do) start food-based businesses on a small scale then grow them to food truck or their own physical locations (as several have already), etc. The other is a bit smaller and less diverse (in produce selection) and is sponsored by an inner-city church.
Both of these have produce vendors that come from the greater metro area, and very nearly all the foods are grown locally. (I'm betting the coffee roaster's beans are non-local! 😉) Some of the produce even comes from greenhouses in the central city itself, and other local growers have greenhouses or hoop houses that let them extend the season greatly. The neighborhood center's farmers market is a year-round thing, with locally grown produce all year long. (In Winter, some of it greenhouse, some storage veggies like squash, some root crops that can be mulched/covered and dug in Winter, etc.) The selection is markedly smaller in Winter, of course.
I agree that there are expensive options on offer, those things more artisan/locavore stuff than inexpensive. However, there are almost always some good bargains to be had, maybe not the premium harder-to-grow tender fresh fruit of the moment, but good, nutritious foods at reasonable prices. (One would need to be flexible about preferences to save money, which I recognize still has a whiff of unfairness to it.) One of the farms that sells at the neighborhood center's market maintains their own mini "produce bank" someplace around there, with fresh produce in a cooler, that people can take; and they post their phone number so they can replenish when needed. I'm not sure they'll do that all year, but are doing it during veggie bounty season, at least.
City farms are getting to be a bit of a thing, in Michigan, it seems like . . . especially places like Flint and greater Detroit, which had major population shrinkages over recent decades, so more open land (where abandoned homes were demolished or fell to arson, for example) that could be rededicated to urban farming experiments. How extensive that is in those places, and how robust it'll be over time, is unclear to me . . . but it seems to be happening, at least somewhat.
I didn’t actually see anything that wasn’t expensive. Tomatoes and peppers are so cheap at the moment that my neighbor keeps sneaking over and leaving bags of them on my doorstep because he can’t use them as fast as they grow, and it was something like 4 bucks for a single large tomato - not a fancy heirloom one, just a normal one.
Memphis is like that, though, shopping at Goodwill is like going into an expensive boutique, and antique shopping means looking at very pricey broken dusty junk. Give a Memphian a shop and they will jack the prices up, lose business, go bankrupt, and never think to lower prices.
I have no trouble believing it. Some of the more suburban-area farmers markets here are more like that, usually.
There really are a bunch of markets around here: I don't know whether that's typical. There are 5 I go to, within a few miles of my home, and I'm vaguely aware of others in the area. Each one is only one or two days a week, for a few hours. Most of them are in a park, parking lot or vacant lot (in a building for the very few that continue in Winter). One in a small unincorporated bedroom community adjacent to the city has a dedicated building, which I think might be an old auto service place or maybe something like a fire station? (Big garage doors on one end, not much in the way of partitions/separate rooms inside.) One in the more upper-income suburb has just built a good-sized pavilion (roof, no walls) on the edge of a mall parking lot.
I have no illusion that these are the ideal place to get cheaper-than-average produce generally, and would never remotely suggest farmers markets as a blanket solution for budget-challenged people. I can see the neighborhood-y central city ones here as maybe slightly useful for someone who lives near, is flexible about choices, and willing to buy what's most affordable with the double-up bucks. That's pretty narrow. It would also be time-consuming, for a class of folks who may be more time-challenged than the population average.
If I had to make any kind of blanket pronouncement - which I don't - I'd say they're more suitable for financially-comfortable locavore foodies, not a budget-friendly source for fresh produce for working-class folks. Even the neighborhood center one here is more of that by volume . . . I suspect they use the revenue (vendor fees) to fund some things that may really be of more use in their neighborhood, like the gardening support, classes, senior assistance, incubator kitchen.2 -
janejellyroll wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »kristingjertsen wrote: »Local Farmers Markets in our area double WIC coupons and SNAP benefits. This means that families can access healthy fresh vegetables, greens, and fruit in season. There are also classes available to teach families how to maximize the value of their SNAP and WIC benefits by learning to cook from scratch and choose healthier options to feed themselves and their children. Having access to a stove and an area to cook can also make it harder to choose healthy food. At one point in our lives as a family we lived in a hotel for several months. Father with a job, heavily pregnant mother, and a three year old boy. My husband had a job that paid decently, but we were struggling to find housing in a high poverty community where many units were Section 8 and the few small houses and apartments that we could afford were in awful shape and the nearest bigger city was Wichita, Kansas more than an hour and a half away. With me due to give birth within two months, we didn't want to risk it. We ate a lot of meals out and I spent many hours entertaining our son at the local park to get us out of the tiny hotel room. Humbling experience that changed my perception of just how difficult the lives of some people are. I remember a group of kids coming up to me while I read to my son at the Park. They asked what we were doing, could they listen too, and where did I get the book? I told them about the public library just down the street and that they could check out books for free. They had never learned this. After that I bought boxes of cookies and encouraged them to join our reading session. I realized after a little girl woofed down 4 cookies that she hadn't had breakfast or lunch that I would also bring some sandwiches. It can be cheaper to get a fast food hamburger and fries that to make a healthy meal when you don't have access to a stove, grocery store, or enough money to buy better quality food.
THIS
Exactly this.
Been there. Done that. (by which I mean very similar)
I do want to add also: Yes. Farmer’s Markets are usually wonderful with SNAP and such.
The problem is that Farmers Markets tend to be in ritzy areas. And only open during very limited hours. So, if you’re working? Or have limited transportation? Tough nuggets. No SNAP farmers market bonus for you.
I feel like this is very community-reliant. For example, I live in a city that is fortunate enough to have several different farmer's markets, including many that are extremely accessable via public transportation and not in high income areas. There are also options that are available outside the stereotypical farmer's market hours.
Yeah, I live in a big city and there are farmers markets that take SNAP open most days.0 -
rheddmobile wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »kristingjertsen wrote: »Local Farmers Markets in our area double WIC coupons and SNAP benefits. This means that families can access healthy fresh vegetables, greens, and fruit in season. There are also classes available to teach families how to maximize the value of their SNAP and WIC benefits by learning to cook from scratch and choose healthier options to feed themselves and their children. Having access to a stove and an area to cook can also make it harder to choose healthy food. At one point in our lives as a family we lived in a hotel for several months. Father with a job, heavily pregnant mother, and a three year old boy. My husband had a job that paid decently, but we were struggling to find housing in a high poverty community where many units were Section 8 and the few small houses and apartments that we could afford were in awful shape and the nearest bigger city was Wichita, Kansas more than an hour and a half away. With me due to give birth within two months, we didn't want to risk it. We ate a lot of meals out and I spent many hours entertaining our son at the local park to get us out of the tiny hotel room. Humbling experience that changed my perception of just how difficult the lives of some people are. I remember a group of kids coming up to me while I read to my son at the Park. They asked what we were doing, could they listen too, and where did I get the book? I told them about the public library just down the street and that they could check out books for free. They had never learned this. After that I bought boxes of cookies and encouraged them to join our reading session. I realized after a little girl woofed down 4 cookies that she hadn't had breakfast or lunch that I would also bring some sandwiches. It can be cheaper to get a fast food hamburger and fries that to make a healthy meal when you don't have access to a stove, grocery store, or enough money to buy better quality food.
THIS
Exactly this.
Been there. Done that. (by which I mean very similar)
I do want to add also: Yes. Farmer’s Markets are usually wonderful with SNAP and such.
The problem is that Farmers Markets tend to be in ritzy areas. And only open during very limited hours. So, if you’re working? Or have limited transportation? Tough nuggets. No SNAP farmers market bonus for you.
I feel like this is very community-reliant. For example, I live in a city that is fortunate enough to have several different farmer's markets, including many that are extremely accessable via public transportation and not in high income areas. There are also options that are available outside the stereotypical farmer's market hours.
I know this isn't the case everywhere and there is a lot of work to be done, but this is a good example of something that can be impacted on a community level if there is a grassroots desire to do it.
Agreed.
We’re rural. So the Farmers Market is in the county seat, and one kind of central small town twenty miles up the road. Saturday in one spot, Sunday in the other.
I do know most of the local farmers donate what they can to the food bank.
But if you’re way out in the sticks? Or you work on weekends in this heavily tourist dependent town? (most tourist associated jobs mean working weekends) Again. Tough nuggets.
And there is a LOT of grassroots support for assisting those who are struggling. But it’s not enough. I’m not sure if it will ever be enough.
I visited the farmers market recently with my mother and was shocked. Our farmers market is horrifyingly expensive, compared to the grocery. And food there is not necessary local or grown by farmers - it’s common for booths to ship in food from big growers and sell it at stalls. But the main thing is the expense, a pint of berries more than twice the price of the ones at the store, ditto peaches, squash, corn, crowder peas. Ended up spending $80 on a small plastic bag of one meal and a few snacks. I’m wondering if people who suggest to shop at Farmers markets live somewhere where the situation is different.
Produce is more at our farmer's markets vs the grocery (if you buy conventional), but no where near $80 (not sure what one meal and a few snacks is, but I buy a lot and haven't ever spent that much).0 -
MargaretYakoda wrote: »Communities do differ.
But that doesn’t negate the problem with telling people in a blanket statement that shopping at a Farmer’s market is something they should do for better nutrition.
Has anyone done this? I doubt it.2 -
Was watching a discussion that insurance companies should be able to charge more for those that are not vaxxed. Isn't this similar, if not identical, to the question on obesity? By and large, both are the results of personal choices (yes there are outliers).0
-
richardgavel wrote: »Was watching a discussion that insurance companies should be able to charge more for those that are not vaxxed. Isn't this similar, if not identical, to the question on obesity? By and large, both are the results of personal choices (yes there are outliers).
IMO, no, not all that similar. Vax is a simple, potentially immediate choice, easy, not time-consuming, free in USA, statistically quite safe. Obesity is complicated, multi-factor, potentially difficult and certainly slow to reverse.
If I'm faced with an insurance cost penalty over Covid vaccine status, I can eliminate the problem within a month (here, if both parts of 2-shot vax are needed). Eliminating obesity took me almost a year at about the fastest heathy-ish pace; required consistent attention throughout . . . and I was only barely class 1 obese at the start.6 -
I didn't mean it as a blanket statement. Here in Charlotte, NC there are farmer's markets deliberately placed in lower income areas. There are also community gardens where people can learn how to grow their own food and areas where you can get a small plot to grow your own food. Classes teaching people how to garden and how to to cook healthy meals based on your ethnic community (because food that tastes like grandmothers used to make is easier to get people involved in cooking). I worked in public school gardens where I worked with the kids to plant the classroom gardens and care for the growing plants. It was messy, fun, and got them outdoors. We even did worm composting which the kids all loved (adults not so much, but I gamely pulled out the wiggly worms and showed the kids how to use the worm compost for compost tea. We also filled big outdoor compost bins with food waste, paper, dead leaves, dead plants and taught the kids to turn the compost. I also gardened with my own kids and my husband trained to be a beekeeper and we kept hives in the backyard. Not something for everyone, I know. Now that I am older and have had back surgery, I don't do as much gardening as I used to.4
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I feel I should be clear about “blanket statement”
Y’all haven’t done anything like that that I have noticed in this conversation. And don’t correct me on that if I’m wrong for it will serve no purpose.
That said, saying “just get fresh vegetables at the farmers market” is a really common blanket statement when online and even in person discussions of nutrition happen.
Farmers markets are absolutely a great thing.
Yes, even the bouge ones.
And the ones that @AnnPT77 and @kristingjertsen are a definite good thing for the people lucky enough to have access.1 -
Oh I agree with maxhan231; you cannot pick and choose. How about the people of lower incomes? How do you expect them to pay a higher price when they are already struggling to pay for food and other costs? Let's just raise up the cost all around the board then.1
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rheddmobile wrote: »rheddmobile wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »kristingjertsen wrote: »Local Farmers Markets in our area double WIC coupons and SNAP benefits. This means that families can access healthy fresh vegetables, greens, and fruit in season. There are also classes available to teach families how to maximize the value of their SNAP and WIC benefits by learning to cook from scratch and choose healthier options to feed themselves and their children. Having access to a stove and an area to cook can also make it harder to choose healthy food. At one point in our lives as a family we lived in a hotel for several months. Father with a job, heavily pregnant mother, and a three year old boy. My husband had a job that paid decently, but we were struggling to find housing in a high poverty community where many units were Section 8 and the few small houses and apartments that we could afford were in awful shape and the nearest bigger city was Wichita, Kansas more than an hour and a half away. With me due to give birth within two months, we didn't want to risk it. We ate a lot of meals out and I spent many hours entertaining our son at the local park to get us out of the tiny hotel room. Humbling experience that changed my perception of just how difficult the lives of some people are. I remember a group of kids coming up to me while I read to my son at the Park. They asked what we were doing, could they listen too, and where did I get the book? I told them about the public library just down the street and that they could check out books for free. They had never learned this. After that I bought boxes of cookies and encouraged them to join our reading session. I realized after a little girl woofed down 4 cookies that she hadn't had breakfast or lunch that I would also bring some sandwiches. It can be cheaper to get a fast food hamburger and fries that to make a healthy meal when you don't have access to a stove, grocery store, or enough money to buy better quality food.
THIS
Exactly this.
Been there. Done that. (by which I mean very similar)
I do want to add also: Yes. Farmer’s Markets are usually wonderful with SNAP and such.
The problem is that Farmers Markets tend to be in ritzy areas. And only open during very limited hours. So, if you’re working? Or have limited transportation? Tough nuggets. No SNAP farmers market bonus for you.
I feel like this is very community-reliant. For example, I live in a city that is fortunate enough to have several different farmer's markets, including many that are extremely accessable via public transportation and not in high income areas. There are also options that are available outside the stereotypical farmer's market hours.
I know this isn't the case everywhere and there is a lot of work to be done, but this is a good example of something that can be impacted on a community level if there is a grassroots desire to do it.
Agreed.
We’re rural. So the Farmers Market is in the county seat, and one kind of central small town twenty miles up the road. Saturday in one spot, Sunday in the other.
I do know most of the local farmers donate what they can to the food bank.
But if you’re way out in the sticks? Or you work on weekends in this heavily tourist dependent town? (most tourist associated jobs mean working weekends) Again. Tough nuggets.
And there is a LOT of grassroots support for assisting those who are struggling. But it’s not enough. I’m not sure if it will ever be enough.
I visited the farmers market recently with my mother and was shocked. Our farmers market is horrifyingly expensive, compared to the grocery. And food there is not necessary local or grown by farmers - it’s common for booths to ship in food from big growers and sell it at stalls. But the main thing is the expense, a pint of berries more than twice the price of the ones at the store, ditto peaches, squash, corn, crowder peas. Ended up spending $80 on a small plastic bag of one meal and a few snacks. I’m wondering if people who suggest to shop at Farmers markets live somewhere where the situation is different.
If I had to make any kind of blanket pronouncement - which I don't - I'd say they're more suitable for financially-comfortable locavore foodies, not a budget-friendly source for fresh produce for working-class folks. Even the neighborhood center one here is more of that by volume . . . I suspect they use the revenue (vendor fees) to fund some things that may really be of more use in their neighborhood, like the gardening support, classes, senior assistance, incubator kitchen.
Agree 100% with the bolded. For the vast majority that use them in the US, farmers markets are a cute thing to do a Saturday morning (or whatever time one goes) not a practical way to obtain food.0 -
rheddmobile wrote: »rheddmobile wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »kristingjertsen wrote: »Local Farmers Markets in our area double WIC coupons and SNAP benefits. This means that families can access healthy fresh vegetables, greens, and fruit in season. There are also classes available to teach families how to maximize the value of their SNAP and WIC benefits by learning to cook from scratch and choose healthier options to feed themselves and their children. Having access to a stove and an area to cook can also make it harder to choose healthy food. At one point in our lives as a family we lived in a hotel for several months. Father with a job, heavily pregnant mother, and a three year old boy. My husband had a job that paid decently, but we were struggling to find housing in a high poverty community where many units were Section 8 and the few small houses and apartments that we could afford were in awful shape and the nearest bigger city was Wichita, Kansas more than an hour and a half away. With me due to give birth within two months, we didn't want to risk it. We ate a lot of meals out and I spent many hours entertaining our son at the local park to get us out of the tiny hotel room. Humbling experience that changed my perception of just how difficult the lives of some people are. I remember a group of kids coming up to me while I read to my son at the Park. They asked what we were doing, could they listen too, and where did I get the book? I told them about the public library just down the street and that they could check out books for free. They had never learned this. After that I bought boxes of cookies and encouraged them to join our reading session. I realized after a little girl woofed down 4 cookies that she hadn't had breakfast or lunch that I would also bring some sandwiches. It can be cheaper to get a fast food hamburger and fries that to make a healthy meal when you don't have access to a stove, grocery store, or enough money to buy better quality food.
THIS
Exactly this.
Been there. Done that. (by which I mean very similar)
I do want to add also: Yes. Farmer’s Markets are usually wonderful with SNAP and such.
The problem is that Farmers Markets tend to be in ritzy areas. And only open during very limited hours. So, if you’re working? Or have limited transportation? Tough nuggets. No SNAP farmers market bonus for you.
I feel like this is very community-reliant. For example, I live in a city that is fortunate enough to have several different farmer's markets, including many that are extremely accessable via public transportation and not in high income areas. There are also options that are available outside the stereotypical farmer's market hours.
I know this isn't the case everywhere and there is a lot of work to be done, but this is a good example of something that can be impacted on a community level if there is a grassroots desire to do it.
Agreed.
We’re rural. So the Farmers Market is in the county seat, and one kind of central small town twenty miles up the road. Saturday in one spot, Sunday in the other.
I do know most of the local farmers donate what they can to the food bank.
But if you’re way out in the sticks? Or you work on weekends in this heavily tourist dependent town? (most tourist associated jobs mean working weekends) Again. Tough nuggets.
And there is a LOT of grassroots support for assisting those who are struggling. But it’s not enough. I’m not sure if it will ever be enough.
I visited the farmers market recently with my mother and was shocked. Our farmers market is horrifyingly expensive, compared to the grocery. And food there is not necessary local or grown by farmers - it’s common for booths to ship in food from big growers and sell it at stalls. But the main thing is the expense, a pint of berries more than twice the price of the ones at the store, ditto peaches, squash, corn, crowder peas. Ended up spending $80 on a small plastic bag of one meal and a few snacks. I’m wondering if people who suggest to shop at Farmers markets live somewhere where the situation is different.
I think communities do differ.
Reading all of the above, I was reflecting that in my mid-sized Michigan city, we have quite a few farmers markets on different schedules and in different parts of the metro area. At least two of them are in central-city areas that are more remote from good grocery stores (though such stores are near to most areas and are on the bus lines), and they are located in lower-income residential areas. Both offer the double-up food bucks for people receiving food assistance.
One is run by a neighborhood center that has a diversity of programs to help people learn how to cook a wider range of foods, learn how plant/tend gardens. It offers seeds and plant starts at the start of gardening season, includes an incubator kitchen where people can (and do) start food-based businesses on a small scale then grow them to food truck or their own physical locations (as several have already), etc. The other is a bit smaller and less diverse (in produce selection) and is sponsored by an inner-city church.
Both of these have produce vendors that come from the greater metro area, and very nearly all the foods are grown locally. (I'm betting the coffee roaster's beans are non-local! 😉) Some of the produce even comes from greenhouses in the central city itself, and other local growers have greenhouses or hoop houses that let them extend the season greatly. The neighborhood center's farmers market is a year-round thing, with locally grown produce all year long. (In Winter, some of it greenhouse, some storage veggies like squash, some root crops that can be mulched/covered and dug in Winter, etc.) The selection is markedly smaller in Winter, of course.
I agree that there are expensive options on offer, those things more artisan/locavore stuff than inexpensive. However, there are almost always some good bargains to be had, maybe not the premium harder-to-grow tender fresh fruit of the moment, but good, nutritious foods at reasonable prices. (One would need to be flexible about preferences to save money, which I recognize still has a whiff of unfairness to it.) One of the farms that sells at the neighborhood center's market maintains their own mini "produce bank" someplace around there, with fresh produce in a cooler, that people can take; and they post their phone number so they can replenish when needed. I'm not sure they'll do that all year, but are doing it during veggie bounty season, at least.
City farms are getting to be a bit of a thing, in Michigan, it seems like . . . especially places like Flint and greater Detroit, which had major population shrinkages over recent decades, so more open land (where abandoned homes were demolished or fell to arson, for example) that could be rededicated to urban farming experiments. How extensive that is in those places, and how robust it'll be over time, is unclear to me . . . but it seems to be happening, at least somewhat.
I didn’t actually see anything that wasn’t expensive. Tomatoes and peppers are so cheap at the moment that my neighbor keeps sneaking over and leaving bags of them on my doorstep because he can’t use them as fast as they grow, and it was something like 4 bucks for a single large tomato - not a fancy heirloom one, just a normal one.
Memphis is like that, though, shopping at Goodwill is like going into an expensive boutique, and antique shopping means looking at very pricey broken dusty junk. Give a Memphian a shop and they will jack the prices up, lose business, go bankrupt, and never think to lower prices.
I lived in Memphis for several years and I go back regularly to see family and . . . this is so true.
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