Goal for deadlifts and squats

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  • canadianlbs
    canadianlbs Posts: 5,199 Member
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    Okiludy wrote: »

    So you are saying someone who can lift 1.25x or even 1.5x body weight has "overkill" strength

    i don't really get why that's such a stunning idea. ain't nowhere in my own life i come across the kind of weight that i go to the gym to deal with - that's why i have to go to a gym to get it. what's wrong with pointing out that most people who do weight train probably are a lot stronger than they ever actively need to be?

    further, the op has a pre-existing injury which affects a pretty major series of joints. and if she doesn't need - or want - more than a certain level of genuinely functional strength, what's the point of getting all huffy and puffy about someone who is sensible enough to bring up the real-life-risk-versus-real-life-reward thing. not everyone wants or needs to be a workout hero, and some people shouldn't even be trying, probably.

    seems like a pretty silly thing to start an argument on, but then again i'm in here adding my two cents to it.
  • Okiludy
    Okiludy Posts: 558 Member
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    First off to disagree with someone's opinion is not an argument. It can lead to one but only if people let their emotions get the better of them.

    Back to the idea of "overkill" strength. You know what else could be considered "overkill", anyone in modern western society running for more than maybe 3km. The chance of serious injury is pretty high in comparison to many other activities. Outside of sport/fitness I bet most have had no reason to even walk more than a few km a day.

    That sounds just as foolish to me that lifting body weight or possibly slightly more is "overkill". It diminishes the work people put in to reach these simple goals and encourages people to limit themselves.

    Besides let's look at a 140lbs female at 5'6". Solidly in average BMI range for 40 years old. Lifting 70lbs is all that would be needed according to the post I quoted. Concidering that an average 4 year old is around 40lbs you are already picking up 50% of a 1rm by these standards. While not too heavy picking up an uneven weight and holding for a few minutes at 50% would get tiring, not to mention dangerous.

    Same person who could lift body weight is only picking up less than 30% of 1rm. Which one do you think has an easier time? I am not even getting into that grisly "overkill" range of being able to lift more than your body weight.

    No where do we state learning form is bad. I also don't think doing functional fitness is bad. I do disagree that being able to squat or deadlift your body weight is "overkill". If someone has a limitation of course they should do less. It's the blanket statements I don't like.
  • Raegold
    Raegold Posts: 191 Member
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    I definitely didn't mean to start an argument here! Although the discussion is interesting... I had a pretty serious injury during childbirth- separated pubic syphysis and separated left SI joint. Things are much much better now, but both joints are still unstable and easily injured if I don't have great form or do high impact movements. So I was inquiring from that standpoint, not from the everyday person with a relatively stable pelvis
  • Raegold
    Raegold Posts: 191 Member
    edited July 2017
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    Also, I appreciate the feedback... I think I need to continue diversifying some of my movements, and improving on the ones that are more difficult. Step ups are one that is tough for my left glute to fluidly activate on even with very low weight. And I want to improve on my lunges and split squats. And obviously core strength is always up there.
  • stanmann571
    stanmann571 Posts: 5,728 Member
    edited July 2017
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    Cherimoose wrote: »
    Raegold wrote: »
    I'm really looking for functional strength.

    If you're trying to stay strong for everyday tasks, don't feel pressured to lift more than around half your bodyweight, since that's rarely experienced in daily life. Most injuries outside the gym involve relatively light loads, but in unexpected or untrained movements. Developing overkill strength can't compensate for skill deficits. With that in mind, i would keep doing goblets & RDLs, and add dumbbell squats, where you hold 2 dumbbells down between your thighs. Very practical lift. Lunges & farmer's carries are also good to add, to train stability while moving. :+1:
    That's absolutely untrue. You weigh more than half your body weight, and that's a weight you encounter all day and every day.

    Raegold wrote: »
    Cherimoose wrote: »
    Raegold wrote: »
    I'm really looking for functional strength.

    If you're trying to stay strong for everyday tasks, don't feel pressured to lift more than around half your bodyweight, since that's rarely experienced in daily life. Most injuries outside the gym involve relatively light loads, but in unexpected or untrained movements. Developing overkill strength can't compensate for skill deficits. With that in mind, i would keep doing goblets & RDLs, and add dumbbell squats, where you hold 2 dumbbells down between your thighs. Very practical lift. Lunges & farmer's carries are also good to add, to train stability while moving. :+1:



    Thank you for the advice! I am trying to stay strong for my everyday life- kids, groceries, etc. I'm not looking to do any sort of competitions at all. I think that lifting my body weight wouldn't really be helpful, and I'd probably end up injuring myself since my left SI is unstable.

    When you say dumbbell squats with the dumbells between your thighs, do you mean in a sumo type stance?

    I've been doing curtsy and reverse lunges with 10-15lbs, and walking lunges carrying asymmetrical loads. Have not done farmers carries, but I'll look that up tonight. Thanks!!

    OK, so If you want to get strong with daily life, figure out what you lift in daily life, or might lift in daily life.

    Body weight+ is a good goal.

    10-15 lbs is interesting when you're working on form, but you'll want to progress. A bag of groceries can be 25-30 lbs. a kid can be 60 or more.

    SO called functional movements are great if you're working with a functional load, but if you're doing them with anemic weights, you're not going to get stronger, and you're not going to get better at doing the movements.

    If you're going to do a dumbbell squat, I would recommend against the sumo, since that's much more of a hinge(deadlift) movement. Not that there's anything wrong with doing dumbbell deadlifts, but do deadlifts, not squats from the sumo position.

    for squats, Bring the dumbells or kettlebells up to the "racked" position with your elbows locked into your ribs and your shoulders naturally in the packed or down position.
  • RavenLibra
    RavenLibra Posts: 1,737 Member
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    Consider, that with each step you take on a set of stairs is a "mini one legged squat" of your current body weight... your legs are considerably stronger than you imagine. As for goals... use your body weight as a gauge... 1/4; 1/2; 3/4... lifting will only improve your joint health (along with a balanced diet). Consider the yin and yang of lifting... muscle endurance... or maximizing strength... you could shoot for a one rep max... or do mega reps with a significantly lower weight... it's the difference between a pro cyclist who can ask his muscles to push a bike for 120 miles in an afternoon... or Usain Bolt... who uses his power to push himself 100 m in less than 10 seconds... if you are strictly after a level of fitness... consider not using weights... and engage in body weight exercises... push ups, pull ups... box jumps... planks, sit ups, jump squats... weights are for folks who want to exceed "average"...
  • Cherimoose
    Cherimoose Posts: 5,209 Member
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    CipherZero wrote: »
    It's hard to know where to begin with this nonsense.

    Easy there, CZ, or you might need more heart surgeries. ;)

    It seems we're miscommunicating, because you're talking about the diminishing returns of adding weight to the bar, i'm talking about the diminishing returns of strength training on handling tasks outside the gym. Most of those functional benefits happen from the first 100 lbs - from lifting SOME weights rather than no weight. For example, increasing one's squat from zero to 100 lbs might give someone an 80% less risk of injury while picking up their kid.. but bumping up their squat from 100 to 200 might only give an extra 5% reduction in risk. So the benefits don't keep increasing in proportion to the weight. Most of them happen early on.

    I admire your optimism that strength training can cure orthopedic issues and that everyone can lift with perfect form all the time, but my experience with watching others in gyms is that it's like driving - people are going to screw up sometimes. And errors are less forgiving at higher loads, which require much tighter tolerances in form to prevent serious injury. Fortunately, like i said, having functional capacity doesn't require an endless progression in training load.. just like how running ultramarathons isn't the required dose for cardiovascular health. :+1:

  • Cherimoose
    Cherimoose Posts: 5,209 Member
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    Okiludy wrote: »
    I also don't think doing functional fitness is bad. I do disagree that being able to squat or deadlift your body weight is "overkill". If someone has a limitation of course they should do less. It's the blanket statements I don't like.

    No blanket statements here. My advice was specifically to someone with a serious orthopedic issue who was being told "the goal is always more weight" (which i doubt her orthopedist recommends). And my advice to her was about her exercises, not back squats. Goblet squats are significantly harder than back squats, so less weight is a requirement. And RDLs can be harder for women than barbell DLs, because the arms don't get a rest between reps.

    Now that i think about, she's probably better off checking with her doctor or PT before following any of our advice. :+1:
  • Okiludy
    Okiludy Posts: 558 Member
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    Cherimoose wrote: »
    Now that i think about, she's probably better off checking with her doctor or PT before following any of our advice. :+1:

    I completely agree with this.
  • Raegold
    Raegold Posts: 191 Member
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    Thanks for the concern... The injury happened almost 5 years ago. i've since had another baby 18 months ago (c-section), had a 3 finger diastasis recti, which is now 'resolved' at 1 finger. I haven't seen a MD about it for about 4 years. He wasn't super helpful, he basically said "sucks to be a woman bc your ligaments get loose when pregnant, and don't always go back to normal"... cool. I have been seeing PTs on and off the whole time, mostly perinatal or women's health specialists. I was basically cleared to do whatever I want, just warned against anything that puts too much strain on the SI joint, like plyos are out, no running, and certain movements that might torque the joint, like pigeon pose in yoga.

    I feel pretty good about the weight lifting I've been doing. But I'm definitely glad to know to drop the curtsy squat from my routine, and the sumo is better for DL than squat, which I didn't know.

    Thanks for all of the help!!
  • Raegold
    Raegold Posts: 191 Member
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    Right now, I'm really focusing on glute engagement during these exercises, because my left glute tends to just not fire, or takes a LOT of focus and attention to get it to fire. I've been watching and reading a lot of Bret Contreras stuff, and doing glute engagement work before my lifting.

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