Age Discrimination?
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Great comments everyone, but I have to ask, is being called an "Outlier" a negative or an insult to you? I take it as a huge compliment. As an amateur boxer over the age of 40, I am an Outlier and proud of it. There are not many people over the age of 40 who are skilled enough or physically/mentally fit enough to compete at this level. I have worked hard to prove Outliers exist and we don't all fit into cookie cutter boxes that doctors and some trainers want us to fit into.
I say this with all due respect to those commenters above. Just curious to hear your views on why the term Outlier seems to have a negative connotation to some.0 -
@shanaber, thanks for the contribution to the post. It's nice to see so many of us participating here and at our gyms, on roads and trails and in pools! Your observations about the thoughts and excuses many women make are definitely consistent with some of the comments I've heard from friends and even relatives.0
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PokernuttAR wrote: »Great comments everyone, but I have to ask, is being called an "Outlier" a negative or an insult to you? I take it as a huge compliment. As an amateur boxer over the age of 40, I am an Outlier and proud of it. There are not many people over the age of 40 who are skilled enough or physically/mentally fit enough to compete at this level. I have worked hard to prove Outliers exist and we don't all fit into cookie cutter boxes that doctors and some trainers want us to fit into.
I say this with all due respect to those commenters above. Just curious to hear your views on why the term Outlier seems to have a negative connotation to some.
I don't actually object to being called an outlier, I just don't really think that I am. I'm just an ordinary woman who works hard at being healthy and strong. I have the same limitations as many women my age I just choose to work around them. I don't consider myself to be anything special or unusual and I think other women should simply try harder if I'm going to be honest. We can all come up with excuses but we can still make the choice to improve our health now and in the future if it's what we want for ourselves and our loved ones.
If I'm an outlier, then it's only because I made the decision to work hard. Anyone could do what I do unless they are so seriously debilitated that it would be completely impossible. Most of the excuses I hear in my circle of friends and even here at MFP are not related to that kind of disability. Like Shana (above), I didn't just wake up one morning with muscles and at a healthy weight...........I've been working for 4 years to get here and I'm not done yet............I won't be done until they bury me.
I don't think women should assume they can't achieve the same kind of results I'm enjoying by thinking I'm an outlier or unusual in some way. They can if they want to badly enough.
I think you may be an outlier because you're achieving something very unusual..........I however am not, not really. Congratulations on your accomplishments..........I think that's truly amazing.0 -
I have some observations and opinions.
I didn't start working out until my late 50's when I hired a trainer, started lifting and lost 60lbs. During that time with his encouragement I also started running a bit. I have now run 20 half marathons, was invited with a qualifying time twice to run in the US Invitational HM, I still work out at the gym regularly, either with my trainer or on my own. I am in the 'Running Challenge' group here on MFP and I am pretty sure I am the oldest female runner in the group although @luluinca used to be in the group too
I know there are older women runners out there, I see them at races and on other websites but I guess they don't get too involved here. It seems like most are in their 30's or 40's.
I am fortunate to have doctors who celebrate my activity and healthiness. My orthopedist and rheumatologist were excited when I started to lose weight and run. They basically told me if you don't move, you won't be able to and helped me plan how to increase my mileage over time without injuring myself. My regular doctor, a woman my same age, loves that I am so active and healthy and asks me for advice on things she can do to incorporate more in her life, given the crazy hours and schedule she works.
I don't see many women at my gym other than a few on the elliptical or treadmills and none my age or older. I do think that women in general are afraid of the gym, afraid of the machines and weights, afraid of being embarrassed and just generally afraid they will do something wrong. I also think women (of all ages) have that misconception that they are going to end up with huge bulging muscles if they lift weights and especially heavy weights and don't understand that what they will get are beautiful strong, toned arms, shoulders, back, etc..
I also have many female friends my age who will tell me out right - Oh I could never do what you do, I am not strong enough, I don't have time or I don't like to sweat or.... I always think to myself that surely they must realize I didn't just go in and poof got to this point. These rationalizations just don't make sense to me if I put it in the context that I can sit on the couch, run errands, cook, etc.. and die or be disabled before I have grand kids or before I get to really enjoy them or even before I can retire with the alternative that I can put in some effort and be healthier, stronger and feel better. I may still die earlier than I want but it won't be because I couldn't find the time, couldn't get over that I will sweat and never took any action to take care of myself.
We all should be encouraged to at least try activities (at all ages) that push our boundaries and comfort zones. Walking with 5lb weights might be a good place for anyone to start but should not be considered a limit for anyone either.
Also just another participation note similar to @Djproulx for the SF Marathon and HMs runners age 60+ :
Marathon - 52 female, 196 male
1st HM - 118 female, 118 male
2nd HM - 69 female, 83 male
There are older athletes out there and some are participating in organized events so I would say that we are definitely not outliers.
Your post was very inspiring to me (as is this whole thread). I am a 53 y/o woman who has been reading these forums for close to a year. I have *never* been active. Luckily, for most of my life I was always thin. Never comfortable with sports or anything. Just an introvert who enjoyed doing loner type of things as a child (jump rope, hopscotch, etc). Played some tennis in my youth but nothing more than that. Just don't have a competitive nature and my lack of doing anything well certainly kept me from trying anything in a group.
In my late 30s and up through today, I *want* to be fit. I have a ton of excuses why I not (work full-time, kids, animals, long commutes, always tired) so there's that. Last year I did the Couch 2 5K and enjoyed it. I did finish but it was sloppiest hardest 30 minutes ever. Weather got bad so I gave it up. I did join our rec center last year also, predominantly to do weights. I really want to do them...bad. But I hated every minute of that rec center. There was a mix of people there, but the older folks there (older than me) seemed to have to "machine etiquette." I swear there was one guy in there who would hog the bicep machine for 30 minutes. Then other people just stared at me. I can't take it, but after awhile I just got pissed. Then in the free-weight section (where I really want to be), the younger guys were in there doing their posturing and whooping it up and it just makes me uncomfortable. I let the membership go but I really want to do something. I need a trainer too and I'd like one that understands older people who want to push themselves. Well, I am rambling, I just don't know how to start.
But onto the age discrimination--there is just a total mindset in this country that people over 40 or past being able to do anything and they aren't encouraged at all. It is so wrong. I don't know if I'd call it true discrimination but the misinformation about what older people can do is rampant. I think it needs to change.
Bottom line, though, I'd just love to find a gym with people of my own age in it. It's not that I don't like younger people (I have two of my own!!) but I find them a little patronizing.0 -
PokernuttAR wrote: »Great comments everyone, but I have to ask, is being called an "Outlier" a negative or an insult to you? I take it as a huge compliment. As an amateur boxer over the age of 40, I am an Outlier and proud of it. There are not many people over the age of 40 who are skilled enough or physically/mentally fit enough to compete at this level. I have worked hard to prove Outliers exist and we don't all fit into cookie cutter boxes that doctors and some trainers want us to fit into.
I say this with all due respect to those commenters above. Just curious to hear your views on why the term Outlier seems to have a negative connotation to some.
I don't actually object to being called an outlier, I just don't really think that I am. I'm just an ordinary woman who works hard at being healthy and strong. I have the same limitations as many women my age I just choose to work around them. I don't consider myself to be anything special or unusual and I think other women should simply try harder if I'm going to be honest. We can all come up with excuses but we can still make the choice to improve our health now and in the future if it's what we want for ourselves and our loved ones.
If I'm an outlier, then it's only because I made the decision to work hard. Anyone could do what I do unless they are so seriously debilitated that it would be completely impossible. Most of the excuses I hear in my circle of friends and even here at MFP are not related to that kind of disability. Like Shana (above), I didn't just wake up one morning with muscles and at a healthy weight...........I've been working for 4 years to get here and I'm not done yet............I won't be done until they bury me.
I don't think women should assume they can't achieve the same kind of results I'm enjoying by thinking I'm an outlier or unusual in some way. They can if they want to badly enough.
I think you may be an outlier because you're achieving something very unusual..........I however am not, not really. Congratulations on your accomplishments..........I think that's truly amazing.
Thank you for that response. I truly understand your position and totally agree that more people could make the same decision you have made towards fitness. Unfortunately, they have not, for whatever reason. You may not consider yourself an Outlier, but make no mistake, you're one to be admired. Thank you for those nice compliments, I truly appreciate it....especially from someone who knows WE didn't just wake up like this. 0 -
PokernuttAR wrote: »Great comments everyone, but I have to ask, is being called an "Outlier" a negative or an insult to you? I take it as a huge compliment. As an amateur boxer over the age of 40, I am an Outlier and proud of it. There are not many people over the age of 40 who are skilled enough or physically/mentally fit enough to compete at this level. I have worked hard to prove Outliers exist and we don't all fit into cookie cutter boxes that doctors and some trainers want us to fit into.
I say this with all due respect to those commenters above. Just curious to hear your views on why the term Outlier seems to have a negative connotation to some.
I think I was among the earlier ones to comment on the word "outlier". As someone with some modest background in statistics, I tend to see the word in terms of its technical definition.
Wikipedia's version, of which this is only part, is not bad. It begins this way:. . . an outlier is an observation point that is distant from other observations. An outlier may be due to variability in the measurement or it may indicate experimental error; the latter are sometimes excluded from the data set.
So, informally speaking, an outlier is something so far out that you might not even want to consider it part of the group being measured.
I'd argue that calling accomplished older athletes " outliers" is antithetical to this:. . .
Yes, if I'm an outlier, then so are you and countless other men and women we've both come across here. Age is just a factor to consider, it's not a determination of failure.
My trainer said something to me the other day that kind of stuck.....he said, "You're not like most women......of any age, but other women could be like you if they wanted."
To call people "outliers" who have talents within the range of normal, but who work hard and stay fit? It sets the bar too low, for others in our age group, and for expectations about us by other people (such as doctors and trainers) . If we're "outliers", there's no point in others trying for the same level; they can use the term tho distance themselves from their own potential, if they were willing to put in the same level of work.
Don't get me wrong: I'm open to compliments . . . to me, "outlier" isn't one.
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I'm 'only' 50 but I'm in it for the long haul. And in better shape now than ever. I run, bike, row and olympic weight lift. I'm in better shape now than most 30 year olds I know. To say older people should slow down or not be active in whatever capacity they choose is ridiculous. Age is a blessing and I'm here on this earth to get old, really really old.2
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Pics from where I started in 2013 to where I am now. I'm obviously no outlier in that first pic.....LOL
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@PokernuttAR - I don't look at it as a negative or an insult. I honestly just don't think most of us or even @luluinca are outliers.
ETA - I think @luluinca said it much better than I did in her response 0 -
PokernuttAR wrote: »Great comments everyone, but I have to ask, is being called an "Outlier" a negative or an insult to you? I take it as a huge compliment. As an amateur boxer over the age of 40, I am an Outlier and proud of it. There are not many people over the age of 40 who are skilled enough or physically/mentally fit enough to compete at this level. I have worked hard to prove Outliers exist and we don't all fit into cookie cutter boxes that doctors and some trainers want us to fit into.
I say this with all due respect to those commenters above. Just curious to hear your views on why the term Outlier seems to have a negative connotation to some.
I think I was among the earlier ones to comment on the word "outlier". As someone with some modest background in statistics, I tend to see the word in terms of its technical definition.
Wikipedia's version, of which this is only part, is not bad. It begins this way:. . . an outlier is an observation point that is distant from other observations. An outlier may be due to variability in the measurement or it may indicate experimental error; the latter are sometimes excluded from the data set.
So, informally speaking, an outlier is something so far out that you might not even want to consider it part of the group being measured.
I'd argue that calling accomplished older athletes " outliers" is antithetical to this:. . .
Yes, if I'm an outlier, then so are you and countless other men and women we've both come across here. Age is just a factor to consider, it's not a determination of failure.
My trainer said something to me the other day that kind of stuck.....he said, "You're not like most women......of any age, but other women could be like you if they wanted."
To call people "outliers" who have talents within the range of normal, but who work hard and stay fit? It sets the bar too low, for others in our age group, and for expectations about us by other people (such as doctors and trainers) . If we're "outliers", there's no point in others trying for the same level; they can use the term tho distance themselves from their own potential, if they were willing to put in the same level of work.
Don't get me wrong: I'm open to compliments . . . to me, "outlier" isn't one.
Exactly Ann. You always say it much better than I do so thanks for the assist!1 -
Primarily I'd prefer to inspire and encourage other women, and men for that matter, to realize that if I can achieve a level of fitness that they might admire, perhaps they can as well. Ultimately we're really the only ones holding ourselves back.3
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PokernuttAR wrote: »Great comments everyone, but I have to ask, is being called an "Outlier" a negative or an insult to you? I take it as a huge compliment. As an amateur boxer over the age of 40, I am an Outlier and proud of it. There are not many people over the age of 40 who are skilled enough or physically/mentally fit enough to compete at this level. I have worked hard to prove Outliers exist and we don't all fit into cookie cutter boxes that doctors and some trainers want us to fit into.
I say this with all due respect to those commenters above. Just curious to hear your views on why the term Outlier seems to have a negative connotation to some.
@PokernuttAR - Good point and I'm glad you raised it. Prompted me to refine my response a bit in hopes of providing clarity. Like you, I'm kinda proud of being considered an "outlier", even though to my fellow triathletes, I'm part of the norm. What does crank me up a bit is when a sedentary person (who is often 5-10 years younger than me) implies that my fitness level somehow came easier to me than it would if they actually undertook the effort. As if I take some magic pill in the morning. THAT annoys me. I want to pull out the last 8 months of Garmin data and the associated entries in my Training Peaks account to show them the ACTUAL TRAINING time that lead to my current fitness level.
Its like someone saying " I want to play guitar like Eric Clapton" but they are not motivated enough to take lessons.... OK, end of my rant.
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At 65 I'm the youngest in the group of guys I mountain bike with. Everyone else's age starts with a 7 or 8! And we blow by many people on the trail half our age or less. I do two HIIT runs a week, two endurance bike rides, two lifting sessions, and 2-3 yoga type workouts. I do have arthritis and other issues which complicate things, but I've learned to find ways around the obstacles.
Every obstacle has a solution, when one is willing to adapt and persevere. I can't run long distances, but I can do high intensity, so speedwork has let me win my age group in the last three 5k trail races I've entered. Full disclosure - they were very small fields, but hey, I still celebrate my wins! I do a metric century or two a year on my road bike, and it takes me weeks to build up my conditioning for each, whereas when I was younger I could just be out of shape and hop on the bike and knock out 50 to 100 miles. But the training I now require keeps me fit year round, which is the goal anyway.
Am I an outlier? Don't know, don't care. I'm fit and healthy, and that should be the norm. But I certainly take it as a compliment to be an outlier in this society. I just maintain it shouldn't be. We all have limitations, whatever our age. Whether our limitations are physical disabilities, work, family obligations, or whatever, we win by not letting the limitations stop us, but finding ways to pursue health and fitness in spite of the obstacles. At any age.2 -
johnwhitent wrote: »At 65 I'm the youngest in the group of guys I mountain bike with. Everyone else's age starts with a 7 or 8! And we blow by many people on the trail half our age or less. I do two HIIT runs a week, two endurance bike rides, two lifting sessions, and 2-3 yoga type workouts. I do have arthritis and other issues which complicate things, but I've learned to find ways around the obstacles.
Every obstacle has a solution, when one is willing to adapt and persevere. I can't run long distances, but I can do high intensity, so speedwork has let me win my age group in the last three 5k trail races I've entered. Full disclosure - they were very small fields, but hey, I still celebrate my wins! I do a metric century or two a year on my road bike, and it takes me weeks to build up my conditioning for each, whereas when I was younger I could just be out of shape and hop on the bike and knock out 50 to 100 miles. But the training I now require keeps me fit year round, which is the goal anyway.
Am I an outlier? Don't know, don't care. I'm fit and healthy, and that should be the norm. But I certainly take it as a compliment to be an outlier in this society. I just maintain it shouldn't be. We all have limitations, whatever our age. Whether our limitations are physical disabilities, work, family obligations, or whatever, we win by not letting the limitations stop us, but finding ways to pursue health and fitness in spite of the obstacles. At any age.
True that it doesn't really matter if we're outliers or not. As you said we really shouldn't be. When I look at the number of people here in their 50's and 60's responding to my post it's obvious that there are a lot of us here who are defying what the doctors, body builders, or any other naysayers think is true about age and what our potential really is.
Congrats on all your success!1 -
I was thinking (reflecting) this morning along this way of thought. I started this at 43, just turned 49 and while my body is going through things I am working along with it. Having some female issues I though about back in May when I did a 27 mile walk/hike during that TOM - I packed my gear, took Advil along the, visited more Port-O-Potties than I every hoped but I did and came through like a champ-at this point my proudest moment of 2017 so far. My (we will call him this) workout buddy is 41 and probably spends 1/3 to 1/2 the time recovering from not-smart-workouts . I believe we each have our own level of what we can achieve and while age is a factor it is not a reason to . . . not try, do a little or just do enough!!! 4
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I'm 67 y/o with multiple broken bones, ankles , hip, knee , wrist a cervical injury, lumbar disc , shoulder problem etc - you get the idea. I squat, deadlift, overhead press, bench, all with free weights - rusty old barbells I've had a long time. I don't lift as heavy as before - no big single or doubles. I also work on my property with a shovel & wheelbarrow in 95 degree heat. I grow fruit trees & a garden. most days some body part hurts but I'm not spending my days on the couch - I tried that before Eastcoast Jim2
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Thanks for the great stories here everyone! Keep moving!
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