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Food Stamps Restriction
Replies
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Rosemary7391 wrote: »juliegilburd wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »Rosemary7391 wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »Living wage in the UK is simply enough to feed, shelter and transport yourself. Not about supporting a family too. So the minimum wage is an absolute joke because it doesn't actually meet minimums. I have no clue how that compares to the US right enough.
Which is the point/purpose of a minimum wage. And exactly as it should be.
The minimum doesn't include providing for anyone else.
My point is, our minimum wage is below the living wage. Although the government rebranded the minimum as the living wage without making it an actual living wage.
Whether or not the UK minimum wage is sufficient to support a single person depends on quite a few factors, primarily their location. In many parts of the country (aka not London/commuter belt) it's perfectly possible - but probably not fun unless you're into cheap hobbies. I've done it myself so it does get on my nerves slightly when people blanketly claim the minimum wage isn't enough for a minimum living cost. It isn't in London, but that's a different claim.
Just as in the US(Excepting NY, DC, Seattle, LA/SF) It's quite sufficient. and in some places more than sufficient. Places like Montgomery AL, or Columbia, SC, or Abilene TX, It's sufficient for a couple on a single income, these are obviously examples, and not an exhaustive list.
The last statement does not make sense to me. Minimum wage in the U.S. is $9.00/hr. At 40 hours a week, 52 weeks a year ($18,720 annually), that puts the earner in the 2nd to lowest income bracket for 2017, which means they would take home about $1400 if filing married/jointly. I just checked Craigslist and see an average rental for an apartment in Columbia SC could easily be $750/mo. (rents ranged from $575 up to $1200, though the higher end were clearly luxury apts.) So a budget for two people is supposed to look like this?
Rent $750
Utilities (gas/electric/water) $150+ (in my experience, this can be more)
Renter's Insurance $15
Phone (basic cell plan for 2 people) $60
Car payment $250 -OR- Cab/Bus fare for travel to/from work, stores, etc. $120
Laundry $25
That leaves $150-$270 for all the rest... groceries (for 2), life insurance, internet service, healthcare co-pays, haircuts, clothing, car insurance. Not all of those are "necessities", but realistically are a part of most people's lives. How is that quite sufficient? Even if they do get some assistance through SNAP, I just don't see it as "quite sufficient." Even the lowest earners deserve to have an extra $100 a month to put in an emergency fund, you will notice there's no room for that in this hypothetical budget.
Took me forever to type this response, so apologies if anyone covered this angle in the interim.
I'm going to copy your list and make some adjustments - obviously I'm in the UK so serious pinch of salt required...
Rent $750
Utilities (gas/electric/water) $150+ (in my experience, this can be more) I pay £50 ~ $70 in the UK - is it really so much more expensive in the US? I have a big flat with 10ft ceilings, it isn't cheap to heat...
Renter's Insurance $15
Phone (basic cell plan for 2 people) $60 Twice my mobile bill of £15 gives me ~$40
Car payment $250 -OR- Cab/Bus fare for travel to/from work, stores, etc. $120 If you work a minimum wage job wouldn't you walk to work/stores/etc? I get the occasional local bus/cab/train, maybe £20/month ~ $25?
Laundry $25 Ehh???
Do you not have any sort of property/local amenity taxes to pay though? Or is it all income tax?
I do often find that people who have never had to live on less don't understand just how little it is possible to get things for. If you've never known any different they might well be happy with that
And they might enjoy the time they have too!
As a caveat I should have said, I'm using approximate figures, but trying to not be crazy-high on my estimates.
Property taxes are paid by the owner of the property (and theoretically incorporated into the rent amounts). There are state and local sales taxes in my state. Those are just paid at the store when buying taxable items. I live in a fairly low-cost state (Nebraska) have lived in a large city and in two different towns of <200 residents, and my lowest electric bill while living in an apt. was $60, highest about $150. (In a house, bills were $150 up to $375 at times). But there's also a separate natural gas company avg. $50-75/mo. Water bills range from $30-75/mo. Sometimes water is included in rent, but not always.
Yes, you have a point about the transportation. Walking and biking are mostly free except for shoes and maintenance. So we could eliminate that completely, or drop it down to $20/mo for ongoing maintenance.
If you live in apartment you don't usually have a washer/dryer. $1.25+ per load to wash, $1.50+ per load to dry. Average of 3 loads per week for 2 people (example - linens, business clothes, casual clothes) comes to $33 per 4 weeks.
Phone - that is straight out of my budget. Husband and I have 2 flip phones (i.e. not smart phones) with a very basic plan and it costs us $55/mo. When we each had a smart phone with internet the bill was about $175/mo.
Maybe I'm wrong about how these costs play out when compared over the US.1 -
Rosemary7391 wrote: »juliegilburd wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »Rosemary7391 wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »Living wage in the UK is simply enough to feed, shelter and transport yourself. Not about supporting a family too. So the minimum wage is an absolute joke because it doesn't actually meet minimums. I have no clue how that compares to the US right enough.
Which is the point/purpose of a minimum wage. And exactly as it should be.
The minimum doesn't include providing for anyone else.
My point is, our minimum wage is below the living wage. Although the government rebranded the minimum as the living wage without making it an actual living wage.
Whether or not the UK minimum wage is sufficient to support a single person depends on quite a few factors, primarily their location. In many parts of the country (aka not London/commuter belt) it's perfectly possible - but probably not fun unless you're into cheap hobbies. I've done it myself so it does get on my nerves slightly when people blanketly claim the minimum wage isn't enough for a minimum living cost. It isn't in London, but that's a different claim.
Just as in the US(Excepting NY, DC, Seattle, LA/SF) It's quite sufficient. and in some places more than sufficient. Places like Montgomery AL, or Columbia, SC, or Abilene TX, It's sufficient for a couple on a single income, these are obviously examples, and not an exhaustive list.
The last statement does not make sense to me. Minimum wage in the U.S. is $9.00/hr. At 40 hours a week, 52 weeks a year ($18,720 annually), that puts the earner in the 2nd to lowest income bracket for 2017, which means they would take home about $1400 if filing married/jointly. I just checked Craigslist and see an average rental for an apartment in Columbia SC could easily be $750/mo. (rents ranged from $575 up to $1200, though the higher end were clearly luxury apts.) So a budget for two people is supposed to look like this?
Rent $750
Utilities (gas/electric/water) $150+ (in my experience, this can be more)
Renter's Insurance $15
Phone (basic cell plan for 2 people) $60
Car payment $250 -OR- Cab/Bus fare for travel to/from work, stores, etc. $120
Laundry $25
That leaves $150-$270 for all the rest... groceries (for 2), life insurance, internet service, healthcare co-pays, haircuts, clothing, car insurance. Not all of those are "necessities", but realistically are a part of most people's lives. How is that quite sufficient? Even if they do get some assistance through SNAP, I just don't see it as "quite sufficient." Even the lowest earners deserve to have an extra $100 a month to put in an emergency fund, you will notice there's no room for that in this hypothetical budget.
Took me forever to type this response, so apologies if anyone covered this angle in the interim.
I'm going to copy your list and make some adjustments - obviously I'm in the UK so serious pinch of salt required...
Rent $750
Utilities (gas/electric/water) $150+ (in my experience, this can be more) I pay £50 ~ $70 in the UK - is it really so much more expensive in the US? I have a big flat with 10ft ceilings, it isn't cheap to heat...
Renter's Insurance $15
Phone (basic cell plan for 2 people) $60 Twice my mobile bill of £15 gives me ~$40
Car payment $250 -OR- Cab/Bus fare for travel to/from work, stores, etc. $120 If you work a minimum wage job wouldn't you walk to work/stores/etc? I get the occasional local bus/cab/train, maybe £20/month ~ $25?
Laundry $25 Ehh???
Do you not have any sort of property/local amenity taxes to pay though? Or is it all income tax?
I do often find that people who have never had to live on less don't understand just how little it is possible to get things for. If you've never known any different they might well be happy with that And they might enjoy the time they have too!
Unfortunately electric costs vary so wildly it's hard to estimate or compare from one region to another.
And yes, walking is an option in many places, although most Americans outside of a few large cities believe that having a car is a civil right.2 -
for $750 in Columbia SC you get this...
Peachtree Place
Welcome to a Very Special Home This is a 1006-1035 Sq. Ft., 2 Bedroom, 2 Bath, Apartment Home. Welcome to Peachtree Place, a beautiful place to live. Our property features lush landscaping in a quiet, peaceful environment. You will enjoy the spacious apartments and wonderful neighbors. This community is professionally managed with excellent office team and maintenance staff. Conveniently located near downtown... Nestled in the St. Andrew's area... At the corner of I-26 & I-20... The most for your money... The most courteous staff...the most attention to your needs. Whether you're moving out on your own, have a roommate or just need more room. Peachtree has four terrific floorplans that will be the right home for you! We'll do our best to wrap you in comfort and smother you with service. Features - Washer/Dryer Connections* - Tub/Shower - Fully-Equipped Kitchens - Eat-in Kitchen* - Ceiling Fans - Heating - Walk-In Closets - Range - Air Conditioning - Dishwasher - Cable Ready - Excellent storage / closet space - Kitchen - Optional Studies / Dens - Private Patios / Balconies - Disposal Community Amenities - Covered Parking - Conveniently Located near Shopping and Dining - Se Habla Espanol - Minutes from I20 and I26 Highways - Sparkling Swimming Pool - Great Staff - Playgrounds - Wellness / Fitness Center Office Hours Monday - Friday 08:30 AM to 05:30 PM Saturday 10:00 AM to 04:00 PM Pet Policy Dogs and Cats - Welcome! Restrictions and terms do apply. Thank you! Equal Housing Opportunity Floor Plan: 2 BD
... a little extravagant for someone scraping by on minimum wage I'm thinking.6 -
what a wonderfully paternalistic thread we have going here. carry on.7
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Packerjohn wrote: »juliegilburd wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »Rosemary7391 wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »Living wage in the UK is simply enough to feed, shelter and transport yourself. Not about supporting a family too. So the minimum wage is an absolute joke because it doesn't actually meet minimums. I have no clue how that compares to the US right enough.
Which is the point/purpose of a minimum wage. And exactly as it should be.
The minimum doesn't include providing for anyone else.
My point is, our minimum wage is below the living wage. Although the government rebranded the minimum as the living wage without making it an actual living wage.
Whether or not the UK minimum wage is sufficient to support a single person depends on quite a few factors, primarily their location. In many parts of the country (aka not London/commuter belt) it's perfectly possible - but probably not fun unless you're into cheap hobbies. I've done it myself so it does get on my nerves slightly when people blanketly claim the minimum wage isn't enough for a minimum living cost. It isn't in London, but that's a different claim.
Just as in the US(Excepting NY, DC, Seattle, LA/SF) It's quite sufficient. and in some places more than sufficient. Places like Montgomery AL, or Columbia, SC, or Abilene TX, It's sufficient for a couple on a single income, these are obviously examples, and not an exhaustive list.
The last statement does not make sense to me. Minimum wage in the U.S. is $9.00/hr. At 40 hours a week, 52 weeks a year ($18,720 annually), that puts the earner in the 2nd to lowest income bracket for 2017, which means they would take home about $1400 if filing married/jointly. I just checked Craigslist and see an average rental for an apartment in Columbia SC could easily be $750/mo. (rents ranged from $575 up to $1200, though the higher end were clearly luxury apts.) So a budget for two people is supposed to look like this?
Rent $750
Utilities (gas/electric/water) $150+ (in my experience, this can be more)
Renter's Insurance $15
Phone (basic cell plan for 2 people) $60
Car payment $250 -OR- Cab/Bus fare for travel to/from work, stores, etc. $120
Laundry $25
That leaves $150-$270 for all the rest... groceries (for 2), life insurance, internet service, healthcare co-pays, haircuts, clothing, car insurance. Not all of those are "necessities", but realistically are a part of most people's lives. How is that quite sufficient? Even if they do get some assistance through SNAP, I just don't see it as "quite sufficient." Even the lowest earners deserve to have an extra $100 a month to put in an emergency fund, you will notice there's no room for that in this hypothetical budget.
Took me forever to type this response, so apologies if anyone covered this angle in the interim.
ETA: I guess minimum wage in South Carolina is actually $7.25, so that changes the take home to $1,131 per month. They changed minimum wage to $9 in my state a few years back and I forgot that wasn't nation-wide.
You're talking about expenses for 2 people. Why isn't the second person working to double the income?
If not married, find a roommate and cut the rent in half.
Yes, I am talking about that (and I agree, 2nd person having a job obviously makes it better) but I was responding to someone's statement that 2 people could live "quite sufficiently" off a single income in a low-cost area such as those that the poster listed.
On a related note, maybe my own state is not as low cost as I thought.
Switching to my state now, since that's what I know best. If I were to average the rents here in Nebraska, I would maybe drop it down to $550. Yes, buying is cheaper...but we're talking about low income, so assuming they have no existing debt, a "good" credit score and $1000 down payment, they could afford $63,000.00 house (monthly payment $600). In order to do a no or low money down loan the house has to meet an FHA inspection. Honestly, you're not going to find a home that meets FHA requirements for that price here. (I know -I've been looking to buy for the last 15 months, and most houses under $90K aren't going to meet those minimum inspection requirements.) I get what you're saying but it's not as simple as that.4 -
Packerjohn wrote: »juliegilburd wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »Rosemary7391 wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »Living wage in the UK is simply enough to feed, shelter and transport yourself. Not about supporting a family too. So the minimum wage is an absolute joke because it doesn't actually meet minimums. I have no clue how that compares to the US right enough.
Which is the point/purpose of a minimum wage. And exactly as it should be.
The minimum doesn't include providing for anyone else.
My point is, our minimum wage is below the living wage. Although the government rebranded the minimum as the living wage without making it an actual living wage.
Whether or not the UK minimum wage is sufficient to support a single person depends on quite a few factors, primarily their location. In many parts of the country (aka not London/commuter belt) it's perfectly possible - but probably not fun unless you're into cheap hobbies. I've done it myself so it does get on my nerves slightly when people blanketly claim the minimum wage isn't enough for a minimum living cost. It isn't in London, but that's a different claim.
Just as in the US(Excepting NY, DC, Seattle, LA/SF) It's quite sufficient. and in some places more than sufficient. Places like Montgomery AL, or Columbia, SC, or Abilene TX, It's sufficient for a couple on a single income, these are obviously examples, and not an exhaustive list.
The last statement does not make sense to me. Minimum wage in the U.S. is $9.00/hr. At 40 hours a week, 52 weeks a year ($18,720 annually), that puts the earner in the 2nd to lowest income bracket for 2017, which means they would take home about $1400 if filing married/jointly. I just checked Craigslist and see an average rental for an apartment in Columbia SC could easily be $750/mo. (rents ranged from $575 up to $1200, though the higher end were clearly luxury apts.) So a budget for two people is supposed to look like this?
Rent $750
Utilities (gas/electric/water) $150+ (in my experience, this can be more)
Renter's Insurance $15
Phone (basic cell plan for 2 people) $60
Car payment $250 -OR- Cab/Bus fare for travel to/from work, stores, etc. $120
Laundry $25
That leaves $150-$270 for all the rest... groceries (for 2), life insurance, internet service, healthcare co-pays, haircuts, clothing, car insurance. Not all of those are "necessities", but realistically are a part of most people's lives. How is that quite sufficient? Even if they do get some assistance through SNAP, I just don't see it as "quite sufficient." Even the lowest earners deserve to have an extra $100 a month to put in an emergency fund, you will notice there's no room for that in this hypothetical budget.
Took me forever to type this response, so apologies if anyone covered this angle in the interim.
ETA: I guess minimum wage in South Carolina is actually $7.25, so that changes the take home to $1,131 per month. They changed minimum wage to $9 in my state a few years back and I forgot that wasn't nation-wide.
You're talking about expenses for 2 people. Why isn't the second person working to double the income?
If not married, find a roommate and cut the rent in half.
She was responding to my assertion that a young couple can subsist in several locations on a single minimum wage income.0 -
juliegilburd wrote: »Packerjohn wrote: »juliegilburd wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »Rosemary7391 wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »Living wage in the UK is simply enough to feed, shelter and transport yourself. Not about supporting a family too. So the minimum wage is an absolute joke because it doesn't actually meet minimums. I have no clue how that compares to the US right enough.
Which is the point/purpose of a minimum wage. And exactly as it should be.
The minimum doesn't include providing for anyone else.
My point is, our minimum wage is below the living wage. Although the government rebranded the minimum as the living wage without making it an actual living wage.
Whether or not the UK minimum wage is sufficient to support a single person depends on quite a few factors, primarily their location. In many parts of the country (aka not London/commuter belt) it's perfectly possible - but probably not fun unless you're into cheap hobbies. I've done it myself so it does get on my nerves slightly when people blanketly claim the minimum wage isn't enough for a minimum living cost. It isn't in London, but that's a different claim.
Just as in the US(Excepting NY, DC, Seattle, LA/SF) It's quite sufficient. and in some places more than sufficient. Places like Montgomery AL, or Columbia, SC, or Abilene TX, It's sufficient for a couple on a single income, these are obviously examples, and not an exhaustive list.
The last statement does not make sense to me. Minimum wage in the U.S. is $9.00/hr. At 40 hours a week, 52 weeks a year ($18,720 annually), that puts the earner in the 2nd to lowest income bracket for 2017, which means they would take home about $1400 if filing married/jointly. I just checked Craigslist and see an average rental for an apartment in Columbia SC could easily be $750/mo. (rents ranged from $575 up to $1200, though the higher end were clearly luxury apts.) So a budget for two people is supposed to look like this?
Rent $750
Utilities (gas/electric/water) $150+ (in my experience, this can be more)
Renter's Insurance $15
Phone (basic cell plan for 2 people) $60
Car payment $250 -OR- Cab/Bus fare for travel to/from work, stores, etc. $120
Laundry $25
That leaves $150-$270 for all the rest... groceries (for 2), life insurance, internet service, healthcare co-pays, haircuts, clothing, car insurance. Not all of those are "necessities", but realistically are a part of most people's lives. How is that quite sufficient? Even if they do get some assistance through SNAP, I just don't see it as "quite sufficient." Even the lowest earners deserve to have an extra $100 a month to put in an emergency fund, you will notice there's no room for that in this hypothetical budget.
Took me forever to type this response, so apologies if anyone covered this angle in the interim.
ETA: I guess minimum wage in South Carolina is actually $7.25, so that changes the take home to $1,131 per month. They changed minimum wage to $9 in my state a few years back and I forgot that wasn't nation-wide.
You're talking about expenses for 2 people. Why isn't the second person working to double the income?
If not married, find a roommate and cut the rent in half.
Yes, I am talking about that (and I agree, 2nd person having a job obviously makes it better) but I was responding to someone's statement that 2 people could live "quite sufficiently" off a single income in a low-cost area such as those that the poster listed.
On a related note, maybe my own state is not as low cost as I thought.
Switching to my state now, since that's what I know best. If I were to average the rents here in Nebraska, I would maybe drop it down to $550. Yes, buying is cheaper...but we're talking about low income, so assuming they have no existing debt, a "good" credit score and $1000 down payment, they could afford $63,000.00 house (monthly payment $600). In order to do a no or low money down loan the house has to meet an FHA inspection. Honestly, you're not going to find a home that meets FHA requirements for that price here. (I know -I've been looking to buy for the last 15 months, and most houses under $90K aren't going to meet those minimum inspection requirements.) I get what you're saying but it's not as simple as that.
what calculator is putting a 600 monthly payment on a $63K home?2 -
juliegilburd wrote: »Rosemary7391 wrote: »juliegilburd wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »Rosemary7391 wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »Living wage in the UK is simply enough to feed, shelter and transport yourself. Not about supporting a family too. So the minimum wage is an absolute joke because it doesn't actually meet minimums. I have no clue how that compares to the US right enough.
Which is the point/purpose of a minimum wage. And exactly as it should be.
The minimum doesn't include providing for anyone else.
My point is, our minimum wage is below the living wage. Although the government rebranded the minimum as the living wage without making it an actual living wage.
Whether or not the UK minimum wage is sufficient to support a single person depends on quite a few factors, primarily their location. In many parts of the country (aka not London/commuter belt) it's perfectly possible - but probably not fun unless you're into cheap hobbies. I've done it myself so it does get on my nerves slightly when people blanketly claim the minimum wage isn't enough for a minimum living cost. It isn't in London, but that's a different claim.
Just as in the US(Excepting NY, DC, Seattle, LA/SF) It's quite sufficient. and in some places more than sufficient. Places like Montgomery AL, or Columbia, SC, or Abilene TX, It's sufficient for a couple on a single income, these are obviously examples, and not an exhaustive list.
The last statement does not make sense to me. Minimum wage in the U.S. is $9.00/hr. At 40 hours a week, 52 weeks a year ($18,720 annually), that puts the earner in the 2nd to lowest income bracket for 2017, which means they would take home about $1400 if filing married/jointly. I just checked Craigslist and see an average rental for an apartment in Columbia SC could easily be $750/mo. (rents ranged from $575 up to $1200, though the higher end were clearly luxury apts.) So a budget for two people is supposed to look like this?
Rent $750
Utilities (gas/electric/water) $150+ (in my experience, this can be more)
Renter's Insurance $15
Phone (basic cell plan for 2 people) $60
Car payment $250 -OR- Cab/Bus fare for travel to/from work, stores, etc. $120
Laundry $25
That leaves $150-$270 for all the rest... groceries (for 2), life insurance, internet service, healthcare co-pays, haircuts, clothing, car insurance. Not all of those are "necessities", but realistically are a part of most people's lives. How is that quite sufficient? Even if they do get some assistance through SNAP, I just don't see it as "quite sufficient." Even the lowest earners deserve to have an extra $100 a month to put in an emergency fund, you will notice there's no room for that in this hypothetical budget.
Took me forever to type this response, so apologies if anyone covered this angle in the interim.
I'm going to copy your list and make some adjustments - obviously I'm in the UK so serious pinch of salt required...
Rent $750
Utilities (gas/electric/water) $150+ (in my experience, this can be more) I pay £50 ~ $70 in the UK - is it really so much more expensive in the US? I have a big flat with 10ft ceilings, it isn't cheap to heat...
Renter's Insurance $15
Phone (basic cell plan for 2 people) $60 Twice my mobile bill of £15 gives me ~$40
Car payment $250 -OR- Cab/Bus fare for travel to/from work, stores, etc. $120 If you work a minimum wage job wouldn't you walk to work/stores/etc? I get the occasional local bus/cab/train, maybe £20/month ~ $25?
Laundry $25 Ehh???
Do you not have any sort of property/local amenity taxes to pay though? Or is it all income tax?
I do often find that people who have never had to live on less don't understand just how little it is possible to get things for. If you've never known any different they might well be happy with that And they might enjoy the time they have too!
As a caveat I should have said, I'm using approximate figures, but trying to not be crazy-high on my estimates.
Property taxes are paid by the owner of the property (and theoretically incorporated into the rent amounts). There are state and local sales taxes in my state. Those are just paid at the store when buying taxable items. I live in a fairly low-cost state (Nebraska) have lived in a large city and in two different towns of <200 residents, and my lowest electric bill while living in an apt. was $60, highest about $150. (In a house, bills were $150 up to $375 at times). But there's also a separate natural gas company avg. $50-75/mo. Water bills range from $30-75/mo. Sometimes water is included in rent, but not always.
Yes, you have a point about the transportation. Walking and biking are mostly free except for shoes and maintenance. So we could eliminate that completely, or drop it down to $20/mo for ongoing maintenance.
If you live in apartment you don't usually have a washer/dryer. $1.25+ per load to wash, $1.50+ per load to dry. Average of 3 loads per week for 2 people (example - linens, business clothes, casual clothes) comes to $33 per 4 weeks.
Phone - that is straight out of my budget. Husband and I have 2 flip phones (i.e. not smart phones) with a very basic plan and it costs us $55/mo. When we each had a smart phone with internet the bill was about $175/mo.
Maybe I'm wrong about how these costs play out when compared over the US.
Wow - even the smallest places I've seen here have a washer at least - not always a dryer, but at least a washer.
I guess with the US being so much bigger some things do just cost more to provide than in a more dense country.0 -
Rosemary7391 wrote: »juliegilburd wrote: »Rosemary7391 wrote: »juliegilburd wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »Rosemary7391 wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »Living wage in the UK is simply enough to feed, shelter and transport yourself. Not about supporting a family too. So the minimum wage is an absolute joke because it doesn't actually meet minimums. I have no clue how that compares to the US right enough.
Which is the point/purpose of a minimum wage. And exactly as it should be.
The minimum doesn't include providing for anyone else.
My point is, our minimum wage is below the living wage. Although the government rebranded the minimum as the living wage without making it an actual living wage.
Whether or not the UK minimum wage is sufficient to support a single person depends on quite a few factors, primarily their location. In many parts of the country (aka not London/commuter belt) it's perfectly possible - but probably not fun unless you're into cheap hobbies. I've done it myself so it does get on my nerves slightly when people blanketly claim the minimum wage isn't enough for a minimum living cost. It isn't in London, but that's a different claim.
Just as in the US(Excepting NY, DC, Seattle, LA/SF) It's quite sufficient. and in some places more than sufficient. Places like Montgomery AL, or Columbia, SC, or Abilene TX, It's sufficient for a couple on a single income, these are obviously examples, and not an exhaustive list.
The last statement does not make sense to me. Minimum wage in the U.S. is $9.00/hr. At 40 hours a week, 52 weeks a year ($18,720 annually), that puts the earner in the 2nd to lowest income bracket for 2017, which means they would take home about $1400 if filing married/jointly. I just checked Craigslist and see an average rental for an apartment in Columbia SC could easily be $750/mo. (rents ranged from $575 up to $1200, though the higher end were clearly luxury apts.) So a budget for two people is supposed to look like this?
Rent $750
Utilities (gas/electric/water) $150+ (in my experience, this can be more)
Renter's Insurance $15
Phone (basic cell plan for 2 people) $60
Car payment $250 -OR- Cab/Bus fare for travel to/from work, stores, etc. $120
Laundry $25
That leaves $150-$270 for all the rest... groceries (for 2), life insurance, internet service, healthcare co-pays, haircuts, clothing, car insurance. Not all of those are "necessities", but realistically are a part of most people's lives. How is that quite sufficient? Even if they do get some assistance through SNAP, I just don't see it as "quite sufficient." Even the lowest earners deserve to have an extra $100 a month to put in an emergency fund, you will notice there's no room for that in this hypothetical budget.
Took me forever to type this response, so apologies if anyone covered this angle in the interim.
I'm going to copy your list and make some adjustments - obviously I'm in the UK so serious pinch of salt required...
Rent $750
Utilities (gas/electric/water) $150+ (in my experience, this can be more) I pay £50 ~ $70 in the UK - is it really so much more expensive in the US? I have a big flat with 10ft ceilings, it isn't cheap to heat...
Renter's Insurance $15
Phone (basic cell plan for 2 people) $60 Twice my mobile bill of £15 gives me ~$40
Car payment $250 -OR- Cab/Bus fare for travel to/from work, stores, etc. $120 If you work a minimum wage job wouldn't you walk to work/stores/etc? I get the occasional local bus/cab/train, maybe £20/month ~ $25?
Laundry $25 Ehh???
Do you not have any sort of property/local amenity taxes to pay though? Or is it all income tax?
I do often find that people who have never had to live on less don't understand just how little it is possible to get things for. If you've never known any different they might well be happy with that And they might enjoy the time they have too!
As a caveat I should have said, I'm using approximate figures, but trying to not be crazy-high on my estimates.
Property taxes are paid by the owner of the property (and theoretically incorporated into the rent amounts). There are state and local sales taxes in my state. Those are just paid at the store when buying taxable items. I live in a fairly low-cost state (Nebraska) have lived in a large city and in two different towns of <200 residents, and my lowest electric bill while living in an apt. was $60, highest about $150. (In a house, bills were $150 up to $375 at times). But there's also a separate natural gas company avg. $50-75/mo. Water bills range from $30-75/mo. Sometimes water is included in rent, but not always.
Yes, you have a point about the transportation. Walking and biking are mostly free except for shoes and maintenance. So we could eliminate that completely, or drop it down to $20/mo for ongoing maintenance.
If you live in apartment you don't usually have a washer/dryer. $1.25+ per load to wash, $1.50+ per load to dry. Average of 3 loads per week for 2 people (example - linens, business clothes, casual clothes) comes to $33 per 4 weeks.
Phone - that is straight out of my budget. Husband and I have 2 flip phones (i.e. not smart phones) with a very basic plan and it costs us $55/mo. When we each had a smart phone with internet the bill was about $175/mo.
Maybe I'm wrong about how these costs play out when compared over the US.
Wow - even the smallest places I've seen here have a washer at least - not always a dryer, but at least a washer.
I guess with the US being so much bigger some things do just cost more to provide than in a more dense country.
Unfortunately, this is one of those areas where "poor lifestyle decisions" are to some degree forced on people in certain living situations.
An inexpensive Washer can run $85 used... but unless there's a spot to put it in the house/apartment, it doesn't work out so well. Laundry fees at a pay laundry can run $25 a month. at which point, getting a washer/drier breaks even within 6 months or so.1 -
Packerjohn wrote: »juliegilburd wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »Rosemary7391 wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »Living wage in the UK is simply enough to feed, shelter and transport yourself. Not about supporting a family too. So the minimum wage is an absolute joke because it doesn't actually meet minimums. I have no clue how that compares to the US right enough.
Which is the point/purpose of a minimum wage. And exactly as it should be.
The minimum doesn't include providing for anyone else.
My point is, our minimum wage is below the living wage. Although the government rebranded the minimum as the living wage without making it an actual living wage.
Whether or not the UK minimum wage is sufficient to support a single person depends on quite a few factors, primarily their location. In many parts of the country (aka not London/commuter belt) it's perfectly possible - but probably not fun unless you're into cheap hobbies. I've done it myself so it does get on my nerves slightly when people blanketly claim the minimum wage isn't enough for a minimum living cost. It isn't in London, but that's a different claim.
Just as in the US(Excepting NY, DC, Seattle, LA/SF) It's quite sufficient. and in some places more than sufficient. Places like Montgomery AL, or Columbia, SC, or Abilene TX, It's sufficient for a couple on a single income, these are obviously examples, and not an exhaustive list.
The last statement does not make sense to me. Minimum wage in the U.S. is $9.00/hr. At 40 hours a week, 52 weeks a year ($18,720 annually), that puts the earner in the 2nd to lowest income bracket for 2017, which means they would take home about $1400 if filing married/jointly. I just checked Craigslist and see an average rental for an apartment in Columbia SC could easily be $750/mo. (rents ranged from $575 up to $1200, though the higher end were clearly luxury apts.) So a budget for two people is supposed to look like this?
Rent $750
Utilities (gas/electric/water) $150+ (in my experience, this can be more)
Renter's Insurance $15
Phone (basic cell plan for 2 people) $60
Car payment $250 -OR- Cab/Bus fare for travel to/from work, stores, etc. $120
Laundry $25
That leaves $150-$270 for all the rest... groceries (for 2), life insurance, internet service, healthcare co-pays, haircuts, clothing, car insurance. Not all of those are "necessities", but realistically are a part of most people's lives. How is that quite sufficient? Even if they do get some assistance through SNAP, I just don't see it as "quite sufficient." Even the lowest earners deserve to have an extra $100 a month to put in an emergency fund, you will notice there's no room for that in this hypothetical budget.
Took me forever to type this response, so apologies if anyone covered this angle in the interim.
ETA: I guess minimum wage in South Carolina is actually $7.25, so that changes the take home to $1,131 per month. They changed minimum wage to $9 in my state a few years back and I forgot that wasn't nation-wide.
You're talking about expenses for 2 people. Why isn't the second person working to double the income?
If not married, find a roommate and cut the rent in half.
Perhaps the second person is a child.1 -
Rosemary7391 wrote: »juliegilburd wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »Rosemary7391 wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »Living wage in the UK is simply enough to feed, shelter and transport yourself. Not about supporting a family too. So the minimum wage is an absolute joke because it doesn't actually meet minimums. I have no clue how that compares to the US right enough.
Which is the point/purpose of a minimum wage. And exactly as it should be.
The minimum doesn't include providing for anyone else.
My point is, our minimum wage is below the living wage. Although the government rebranded the minimum as the living wage without making it an actual living wage.
Whether or not the UK minimum wage is sufficient to support a single person depends on quite a few factors, primarily their location. In many parts of the country (aka not London/commuter belt) it's perfectly possible - but probably not fun unless you're into cheap hobbies. I've done it myself so it does get on my nerves slightly when people blanketly claim the minimum wage isn't enough for a minimum living cost. It isn't in London, but that's a different claim.
Just as in the US(Excepting NY, DC, Seattle, LA/SF) It's quite sufficient. and in some places more than sufficient. Places like Montgomery AL, or Columbia, SC, or Abilene TX, It's sufficient for a couple on a single income, these are obviously examples, and not an exhaustive list.
The last statement does not make sense to me. Minimum wage in the U.S. is $9.00/hr. At 40 hours a week, 52 weeks a year ($18,720 annually), that puts the earner in the 2nd to lowest income bracket for 2017, which means they would take home about $1400 if filing married/jointly. I just checked Craigslist and see an average rental for an apartment in Columbia SC could easily be $750/mo. (rents ranged from $575 up to $1200, though the higher end were clearly luxury apts.) So a budget for two people is supposed to look like this?
Rent $750
Utilities (gas/electric/water) $150+ (in my experience, this can be more)
Renter's Insurance $15
Phone (basic cell plan for 2 people) $60
Car payment $250 -OR- Cab/Bus fare for travel to/from work, stores, etc. $120
Laundry $25
That leaves $150-$270 for all the rest... groceries (for 2), life insurance, internet service, healthcare co-pays, haircuts, clothing, car insurance. Not all of those are "necessities", but realistically are a part of most people's lives. How is that quite sufficient? Even if they do get some assistance through SNAP, I just don't see it as "quite sufficient." Even the lowest earners deserve to have an extra $100 a month to put in an emergency fund, you will notice there's no room for that in this hypothetical budget.
Took me forever to type this response, so apologies if anyone covered this angle in the interim.
I'm going to copy your list and make some adjustments - obviously I'm in the UK so serious pinch of salt required...
Rent $750
Utilities (gas/electric/water) $150+ (in my experience, this can be more) I pay £50 ~ $70 in the UK - is it really so much more expensive in the US? I have a big flat with 10ft ceilings, it isn't cheap to heat...
Renter's Insurance $15
Phone (basic cell plan for 2 people) $60 Twice my mobile bill of £15 gives me ~$40
Car payment $250 -OR- Cab/Bus fare for travel to/from work, stores, etc. $120 If you work a minimum wage job wouldn't you walk to work/stores/etc? I get the occasional local bus/cab/train, maybe £20/month ~ $25?
Laundry $25 Ehh???
Do you not have any sort of property/local amenity taxes to pay though? Or is it all income tax?
I do often find that people who have never had to live on less don't understand just how little it is possible to get things for. If you've never known any different they might well be happy with that And they might enjoy the time they have too!
I'm 35, I started working when I was 15. I have had quite a few jobs and only two of them was it feasible to walk to. Moving closer to the jobs was unaffordable.
My utilities are £75pm (about 50 for g&e, I am home a lot so mine are probably a bit higher than most in identical circumstances, 25 for water) but if you live in Scotland water is included in your council tax. But there's something to add on that isn't on the US budget, the amount of which of course varies. Mine would be £120pm. I have friends in the US and indeed, their utilities are eye watering.
I'm not including rent with mine because I do live in London and while my rent is comparatively cheap it's not representative of much of the UK, though the disparity isn't what it once was.
Many people in apartment buildings in the US don't have laundry facilities in their own home but a shared facility in the building that is coin operated. Or they literally go to the laundrette/laundromat.2 -
stanmann571 wrote: »Rosemary7391 wrote: »juliegilburd wrote: »Rosemary7391 wrote: »juliegilburd wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »Rosemary7391 wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »Living wage in the UK is simply enough to feed, shelter and transport yourself. Not about supporting a family too. So the minimum wage is an absolute joke because it doesn't actually meet minimums. I have no clue how that compares to the US right enough.
Which is the point/purpose of a minimum wage. And exactly as it should be.
The minimum doesn't include providing for anyone else.
My point is, our minimum wage is below the living wage. Although the government rebranded the minimum as the living wage without making it an actual living wage.
Whether or not the UK minimum wage is sufficient to support a single person depends on quite a few factors, primarily their location. In many parts of the country (aka not London/commuter belt) it's perfectly possible - but probably not fun unless you're into cheap hobbies. I've done it myself so it does get on my nerves slightly when people blanketly claim the minimum wage isn't enough for a minimum living cost. It isn't in London, but that's a different claim.
Just as in the US(Excepting NY, DC, Seattle, LA/SF) It's quite sufficient. and in some places more than sufficient. Places like Montgomery AL, or Columbia, SC, or Abilene TX, It's sufficient for a couple on a single income, these are obviously examples, and not an exhaustive list.
The last statement does not make sense to me. Minimum wage in the U.S. is $9.00/hr. At 40 hours a week, 52 weeks a year ($18,720 annually), that puts the earner in the 2nd to lowest income bracket for 2017, which means they would take home about $1400 if filing married/jointly. I just checked Craigslist and see an average rental for an apartment in Columbia SC could easily be $750/mo. (rents ranged from $575 up to $1200, though the higher end were clearly luxury apts.) So a budget for two people is supposed to look like this?
Rent $750
Utilities (gas/electric/water) $150+ (in my experience, this can be more)
Renter's Insurance $15
Phone (basic cell plan for 2 people) $60
Car payment $250 -OR- Cab/Bus fare for travel to/from work, stores, etc. $120
Laundry $25
That leaves $150-$270 for all the rest... groceries (for 2), life insurance, internet service, healthcare co-pays, haircuts, clothing, car insurance. Not all of those are "necessities", but realistically are a part of most people's lives. How is that quite sufficient? Even if they do get some assistance through SNAP, I just don't see it as "quite sufficient." Even the lowest earners deserve to have an extra $100 a month to put in an emergency fund, you will notice there's no room for that in this hypothetical budget.
Took me forever to type this response, so apologies if anyone covered this angle in the interim.
I'm going to copy your list and make some adjustments - obviously I'm in the UK so serious pinch of salt required...
Rent $750
Utilities (gas/electric/water) $150+ (in my experience, this can be more) I pay £50 ~ $70 in the UK - is it really so much more expensive in the US? I have a big flat with 10ft ceilings, it isn't cheap to heat...
Renter's Insurance $15
Phone (basic cell plan for 2 people) $60 Twice my mobile bill of £15 gives me ~$40
Car payment $250 -OR- Cab/Bus fare for travel to/from work, stores, etc. $120 If you work a minimum wage job wouldn't you walk to work/stores/etc? I get the occasional local bus/cab/train, maybe £20/month ~ $25?
Laundry $25 Ehh???
Do you not have any sort of property/local amenity taxes to pay though? Or is it all income tax?
I do often find that people who have never had to live on less don't understand just how little it is possible to get things for. If you've never known any different they might well be happy with that And they might enjoy the time they have too!
As a caveat I should have said, I'm using approximate figures, but trying to not be crazy-high on my estimates.
Property taxes are paid by the owner of the property (and theoretically incorporated into the rent amounts). There are state and local sales taxes in my state. Those are just paid at the store when buying taxable items. I live in a fairly low-cost state (Nebraska) have lived in a large city and in two different towns of <200 residents, and my lowest electric bill while living in an apt. was $60, highest about $150. (In a house, bills were $150 up to $375 at times). But there's also a separate natural gas company avg. $50-75/mo. Water bills range from $30-75/mo. Sometimes water is included in rent, but not always.
Yes, you have a point about the transportation. Walking and biking are mostly free except for shoes and maintenance. So we could eliminate that completely, or drop it down to $20/mo for ongoing maintenance.
If you live in apartment you don't usually have a washer/dryer. $1.25+ per load to wash, $1.50+ per load to dry. Average of 3 loads per week for 2 people (example - linens, business clothes, casual clothes) comes to $33 per 4 weeks.
Phone - that is straight out of my budget. Husband and I have 2 flip phones (i.e. not smart phones) with a very basic plan and it costs us $55/mo. When we each had a smart phone with internet the bill was about $175/mo.
Maybe I'm wrong about how these costs play out when compared over the US.
Wow - even the smallest places I've seen here have a washer at least - not always a dryer, but at least a washer.
I guess with the US being so much bigger some things do just cost more to provide than in a more dense country.
Unfortunately, this is one of those areas where "poor lifestyle decisions" are to some degree forced on people in certain living situations.
An inexpensive Washer can run $85 used... but unless there's a spot to put it in the house/apartment, it doesn't work out so well. Laundry fees at a pay laundry can run $25 a month. at which point, getting a washer/drier breaks even within 6 months or so.
Yeah, it's ironic really that being poor can be more expensive. You might struggle to buy things in bulk as well. If you've got the space though, it isn't a massive amount to try and scrape together. 9 months @ $10 a month for instance. Then you get a spare $30 a month (laundry saving+previous saving amount) for the next improvement and so on... this sort of long term planning is hard though. I'm not great at it even though I try. Especially with food which is why I'm here!1 -
Packerjohn wrote: »juliegilburd wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »Rosemary7391 wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »Living wage in the UK is simply enough to feed, shelter and transport yourself. Not about supporting a family too. So the minimum wage is an absolute joke because it doesn't actually meet minimums. I have no clue how that compares to the US right enough.
Which is the point/purpose of a minimum wage. And exactly as it should be.
The minimum doesn't include providing for anyone else.
My point is, our minimum wage is below the living wage. Although the government rebranded the minimum as the living wage without making it an actual living wage.
Whether or not the UK minimum wage is sufficient to support a single person depends on quite a few factors, primarily their location. In many parts of the country (aka not London/commuter belt) it's perfectly possible - but probably not fun unless you're into cheap hobbies. I've done it myself so it does get on my nerves slightly when people blanketly claim the minimum wage isn't enough for a minimum living cost. It isn't in London, but that's a different claim.
Just as in the US(Excepting NY, DC, Seattle, LA/SF) It's quite sufficient. and in some places more than sufficient. Places like Montgomery AL, or Columbia, SC, or Abilene TX, It's sufficient for a couple on a single income, these are obviously examples, and not an exhaustive list.
The last statement does not make sense to me. Minimum wage in the U.S. is $9.00/hr. At 40 hours a week, 52 weeks a year ($18,720 annually), that puts the earner in the 2nd to lowest income bracket for 2017, which means they would take home about $1400 if filing married/jointly. I just checked Craigslist and see an average rental for an apartment in Columbia SC could easily be $750/mo. (rents ranged from $575 up to $1200, though the higher end were clearly luxury apts.) So a budget for two people is supposed to look like this?
Rent $750
Utilities (gas/electric/water) $150+ (in my experience, this can be more)
Renter's Insurance $15
Phone (basic cell plan for 2 people) $60
Car payment $250 -OR- Cab/Bus fare for travel to/from work, stores, etc. $120
Laundry $25
That leaves $150-$270 for all the rest... groceries (for 2), life insurance, internet service, healthcare co-pays, haircuts, clothing, car insurance. Not all of those are "necessities", but realistically are a part of most people's lives. How is that quite sufficient? Even if they do get some assistance through SNAP, I just don't see it as "quite sufficient." Even the lowest earners deserve to have an extra $100 a month to put in an emergency fund, you will notice there's no room for that in this hypothetical budget.
Took me forever to type this response, so apologies if anyone covered this angle in the interim.
ETA: I guess minimum wage in South Carolina is actually $7.25, so that changes the take home to $1,131 per month. They changed minimum wage to $9 in my state a few years back and I forgot that wasn't nation-wide.
You're talking about expenses for 2 people. Why isn't the second person working to double the income?
If not married, find a roommate and cut the rent in half.
Perhaps the second person is a child.
In that case, the income is increased due to WIC/free school lunch programs, earned income credit, rent subsidies, child support from other parent, etc, so the single parent and child is not subsisting on the minimum wage. Still not a ton of money.3 -
Packerjohn wrote: »juliegilburd wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »Rosemary7391 wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »Living wage in the UK is simply enough to feed, shelter and transport yourself. Not about supporting a family too. So the minimum wage is an absolute joke because it doesn't actually meet minimums. I have no clue how that compares to the US right enough.
Which is the point/purpose of a minimum wage. And exactly as it should be.
The minimum doesn't include providing for anyone else.
My point is, our minimum wage is below the living wage. Although the government rebranded the minimum as the living wage without making it an actual living wage.
Whether or not the UK minimum wage is sufficient to support a single person depends on quite a few factors, primarily their location. In many parts of the country (aka not London/commuter belt) it's perfectly possible - but probably not fun unless you're into cheap hobbies. I've done it myself so it does get on my nerves slightly when people blanketly claim the minimum wage isn't enough for a minimum living cost. It isn't in London, but that's a different claim.
Just as in the US(Excepting NY, DC, Seattle, LA/SF) It's quite sufficient. and in some places more than sufficient. Places like Montgomery AL, or Columbia, SC, or Abilene TX, It's sufficient for a couple on a single income, these are obviously examples, and not an exhaustive list.
The last statement does not make sense to me. Minimum wage in the U.S. is $9.00/hr. At 40 hours a week, 52 weeks a year ($18,720 annually), that puts the earner in the 2nd to lowest income bracket for 2017, which means they would take home about $1400 if filing married/jointly. I just checked Craigslist and see an average rental for an apartment in Columbia SC could easily be $750/mo. (rents ranged from $575 up to $1200, though the higher end were clearly luxury apts.) So a budget for two people is supposed to look like this?
Rent $750
Utilities (gas/electric/water) $150+ (in my experience, this can be more)
Renter's Insurance $15
Phone (basic cell plan for 2 people) $60
Car payment $250 -OR- Cab/Bus fare for travel to/from work, stores, etc. $120
Laundry $25
That leaves $150-$270 for all the rest... groceries (for 2), life insurance, internet service, healthcare co-pays, haircuts, clothing, car insurance. Not all of those are "necessities", but realistically are a part of most people's lives. How is that quite sufficient? Even if they do get some assistance through SNAP, I just don't see it as "quite sufficient." Even the lowest earners deserve to have an extra $100 a month to put in an emergency fund, you will notice there's no room for that in this hypothetical budget.
Took me forever to type this response, so apologies if anyone covered this angle in the interim.
ETA: I guess minimum wage in South Carolina is actually $7.25, so that changes the take home to $1,131 per month. They changed minimum wage to $9 in my state a few years back and I forgot that wasn't nation-wide.
You're talking about expenses for 2 people. Why isn't the second person working to double the income?
If not married, find a roommate and cut the rent in half.
ditto. At lowest percentile wages, haven't people traditionally NOT expected to afford their own place - either renting a room as a boarder, or sharing with roommates. But it is now apparently often-times expected (and people expect to be able to easily afford perishable non-local food that wouldn't have been available to buy at all decades ago). Expecting to own a car when dirt poor is a pretty new expectation too (at least outside rural areas). It wasn't the case 20 years ago - you took the bus (currently $75/mo in my city or $37.50/mo if you qualify for a reduced fare).
And to a later post- who the hell needs to do 3 loads of laundry per week for 2 people?! from "business clothes", I'm assuming it's not 8 hours/day of hard physical labor. Clothes don't usually need to be washed after a single wear (and I'm guessing most people without their own washer and dryer and without loads of excess time realize this).3 -
I really just wonder at the people who think that it's *easy* to live on minimum wage. It's been 20 years since I was working minimum wage trying to get by, but since the cost of living in the US has risen much higher than the minimum wage has (and we have expenses now like cell phones and internet - which I consider essential -that didn't exist then).
If you think that it's easily manageable to live on minimum wage, do you have any direct experience with it over the past 5- 10 years? The people that I know who are still working low income jobs aren't getting full time hours, and are working side hustle or second jobs to earn enough to live, with a roommate or SO for shared expenses and are still only a car breaking down, or an injury away from being behind on everything.
Even in the examples above, a carefully managed budget doesn't leave much room for emergencies. Also, I think you DO have to include transportation costs. In the examples above - TX, SC, AL - in order to get cheap housing, you're going to have to live farther out from places. When I was working minimum wage jobs in GA, I had to live several miles out of town to find a place that I could afford. There was no way that I was getting anywhere without a car, and even then I only drove to work and home to save gas.6 -
stanmann571 wrote: »juliegilburd wrote: »Packerjohn wrote: »juliegilburd wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »Rosemary7391 wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »Living wage in the UK is simply enough to feed, shelter and transport yourself. Not about supporting a family too. So the minimum wage is an absolute joke because it doesn't actually meet minimums. I have no clue how that compares to the US right enough.
Which is the point/purpose of a minimum wage. And exactly as it should be.
The minimum doesn't include providing for anyone else.
My point is, our minimum wage is below the living wage. Although the government rebranded the minimum as the living wage without making it an actual living wage.
Whether or not the UK minimum wage is sufficient to support a single person depends on quite a few factors, primarily their location. In many parts of the country (aka not London/commuter belt) it's perfectly possible - but probably not fun unless you're into cheap hobbies. I've done it myself so it does get on my nerves slightly when people blanketly claim the minimum wage isn't enough for a minimum living cost. It isn't in London, but that's a different claim.
Just as in the US(Excepting NY, DC, Seattle, LA/SF) It's quite sufficient. and in some places more than sufficient. Places like Montgomery AL, or Columbia, SC, or Abilene TX, It's sufficient for a couple on a single income, these are obviously examples, and not an exhaustive list.
The last statement does not make sense to me. Minimum wage in the U.S. is $9.00/hr. At 40 hours a week, 52 weeks a year ($18,720 annually), that puts the earner in the 2nd to lowest income bracket for 2017, which means they would take home about $1400 if filing married/jointly. I just checked Craigslist and see an average rental for an apartment in Columbia SC could easily be $750/mo. (rents ranged from $575 up to $1200, though the higher end were clearly luxury apts.) So a budget for two people is supposed to look like this?
Rent $750
Utilities (gas/electric/water) $150+ (in my experience, this can be more)
Renter's Insurance $15
Phone (basic cell plan for 2 people) $60
Car payment $250 -OR- Cab/Bus fare for travel to/from work, stores, etc. $120
Laundry $25
That leaves $150-$270 for all the rest... groceries (for 2), life insurance, internet service, healthcare co-pays, haircuts, clothing, car insurance. Not all of those are "necessities", but realistically are a part of most people's lives. How is that quite sufficient? Even if they do get some assistance through SNAP, I just don't see it as "quite sufficient." Even the lowest earners deserve to have an extra $100 a month to put in an emergency fund, you will notice there's no room for that in this hypothetical budget.
Took me forever to type this response, so apologies if anyone covered this angle in the interim.
ETA: I guess minimum wage in South Carolina is actually $7.25, so that changes the take home to $1,131 per month. They changed minimum wage to $9 in my state a few years back and I forgot that wasn't nation-wide.
You're talking about expenses for 2 people. Why isn't the second person working to double the income?
If not married, find a roommate and cut the rent in half.
Yes, I am talking about that (and I agree, 2nd person having a job obviously makes it better) but I was responding to someone's statement that 2 people could live "quite sufficiently" off a single income in a low-cost area such as those that the poster listed.
On a related note, maybe my own state is not as low cost as I thought.
Switching to my state now, since that's what I know best. If I were to average the rents here in Nebraska, I would maybe drop it down to $550. Yes, buying is cheaper...but we're talking about low income, so assuming they have no existing debt, a "good" credit score and $1000 down payment, they could afford $63,000.00 house (monthly payment $600). In order to do a no or low money down loan the house has to meet an FHA inspection. Honestly, you're not going to find a home that meets FHA requirements for that price here. (I know -I've been looking to buy for the last 15 months, and most houses under $90K aren't going to meet those minimum inspection requirements.) I get what you're saying but it's not as simple as that.
what calculator is putting a 600 monthly payment on a $63K home?
That sounds about right where I am (at least ~15 years ago).. Mortgage after 20% down was $62,000. Our payments with taxes, interest (we had a good rate), and insurance were ~$600/mo. And that is with no PMI added (we had 20% down). (Note: you wouldn't be able to find a house for $80,000 in my area now that wasn't a non-livable as-is fixer-upper).0 -
I really just wonder at the people who think that it's *easy* to live on minimum wage. It's been 20 years since I was working minimum wage trying to get by, but since the cost of living in the US has risen much higher than the minimum wage has (and we have expenses now like cell phones and internet - which I consider essential -that didn't exist then).
If you think that it's easily manageable to live on minimum wage, do you have any direct experience with it over the past 5- 10 years? The people that I know who are still working low income jobs aren't getting full time hours, and are working side hustle or second jobs to earn enough to live, with a roommate or SO for shared expenses and are still only a car breaking down, or an injury away from being behind on everything.
Even in the examples above, a carefully managed budget doesn't leave much room for emergencies. Also, I think you DO have to include transportation costs. In the examples above - TX, SC, AL - in order to get cheap housing, you're going to have to live farther out from places. When I was working minimum wage jobs in GA, I had to live several miles out of town to find a place that I could afford. There was no way that I was getting anywhere without a car, and even then I only drove to work and home to save gas.
One, It's not been asserted as "easy"
Two, redefining nonessentials(car, cell phone, etc) as essential is part of the problem. Additionally, I can get a burner(prepaid cell phone) and run it for $15 a month or less in some cases.
Three, living further out may be the only option as a female(and I will acknowledge that), but inexpensive housing can be found in accessible areas "downmarket" and within walking distance for many jobs as a single man. There's a learning curve to living in some of those neighborhoods, but if you're making minimum wage, it's probably not the first time you've walked those streets.6 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »BTW, up here there is no such thing as food stamps. Very few schools have any sort of food program - a small number offer a bit of extra breakfast. There are food banks through donated foods but that's it. And food is more expensive up here by quite a lot.
So you are asserting that people in poverty in Canada do not get gov't aid? Or just that it is not in the very specific form that some of it takes in the US (i.e., food assistance, school lunches).
For example, we've established that Australia (for the most part) does not have aid in the SNAP format, but instead provides non-earmarked funds that cover a variety of needs.
How does aid to needy people work in Canada, if anyone can answer? I'm reasonably certain it's not just private aid/charities.
There is some welfare. It varies between provinces
Up here in Alberta (Canada) a family of 5 could get just under $500 for a month's worth of groceries, and just over $500 to cover other bills like shelter, electrical, and and water bills, and transportation. It is something of a joke. I spend about $300 a week on food for us, over $1200/month, and that excludes some of our meat that we get from a family member's farm. Property taxes are well over $3000 a year. Heating is ridiculous in the winter. Renting would be impossible too as a below average 2-bedroom rental is over a $1000 and may not cover all bills.
One NEEDS to rely on charity to get by up here. Our food banks and drop in centres are charities.
Surprisingly, it looks like the States gets better benefits for their needy.
Based on what?
Edit: here's a pretty good comparison that indicates for poor families there's a lot more available in Canada than in the US. https://gspp.berkeley.edu/assets/uploads/research/pdf/hoynes_stabile_submission_04272017.pdf
I started to scan that but it is 52 pages long and mind numbing. It doesn't appear to address Canada's higher cost of living... What would you like me to read in it?
The difference in the extent to which lower incomes are adjusted up appears inconsistent with the claim that the US provides more income support/aid for lower income people.
Also hard to say Canada, as a whole, has a higher cost of living than the US, as a whole. I'd be curious how my housing costs compare to yours, for example.
Average house sales in my city are between $480,000 and $501,000 over the last two months. That's average. Half cost more. I do live in an expensive city though. It tends to be more expensive in the west. The prairies are cheaper. So is the east.
Rental rates are high too. A 2-bedroom condo is around $1200 but the average has approached $1500 when times were good. It's fallen with the oil prices.
Food costs are high here too.
Examples are here:
https://www.expatistan.com/cost-of-living/calgary
In Alberta, welfare doesn't go far.
0 -
stanmann571 wrote: »juliegilburd wrote: »Packerjohn wrote: »juliegilburd wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »Rosemary7391 wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »Living wage in the UK is simply enough to feed, shelter and transport yourself. Not about supporting a family too. So the minimum wage is an absolute joke because it doesn't actually meet minimums. I have no clue how that compares to the US right enough.
Which is the point/purpose of a minimum wage. And exactly as it should be.
The minimum doesn't include providing for anyone else.
My point is, our minimum wage is below the living wage. Although the government rebranded the minimum as the living wage without making it an actual living wage.
Whether or not the UK minimum wage is sufficient to support a single person depends on quite a few factors, primarily their location. In many parts of the country (aka not London/commuter belt) it's perfectly possible - but probably not fun unless you're into cheap hobbies. I've done it myself so it does get on my nerves slightly when people blanketly claim the minimum wage isn't enough for a minimum living cost. It isn't in London, but that's a different claim.
Just as in the US(Excepting NY, DC, Seattle, LA/SF) It's quite sufficient. and in some places more than sufficient. Places like Montgomery AL, or Columbia, SC, or Abilene TX, It's sufficient for a couple on a single income, these are obviously examples, and not an exhaustive list.
The last statement does not make sense to me. Minimum wage in the U.S. is $9.00/hr. At 40 hours a week, 52 weeks a year ($18,720 annually), that puts the earner in the 2nd to lowest income bracket for 2017, which means they would take home about $1400 if filing married/jointly. I just checked Craigslist and see an average rental for an apartment in Columbia SC could easily be $750/mo. (rents ranged from $575 up to $1200, though the higher end were clearly luxury apts.) So a budget for two people is supposed to look like this?
Rent $750
Utilities (gas/electric/water) $150+ (in my experience, this can be more)
Renter's Insurance $15
Phone (basic cell plan for 2 people) $60
Car payment $250 -OR- Cab/Bus fare for travel to/from work, stores, etc. $120
Laundry $25
That leaves $150-$270 for all the rest... groceries (for 2), life insurance, internet service, healthcare co-pays, haircuts, clothing, car insurance. Not all of those are "necessities", but realistically are a part of most people's lives. How is that quite sufficient? Even if they do get some assistance through SNAP, I just don't see it as "quite sufficient." Even the lowest earners deserve to have an extra $100 a month to put in an emergency fund, you will notice there's no room for that in this hypothetical budget.
Took me forever to type this response, so apologies if anyone covered this angle in the interim.
ETA: I guess minimum wage in South Carolina is actually $7.25, so that changes the take home to $1,131 per month. They changed minimum wage to $9 in my state a few years back and I forgot that wasn't nation-wide.
You're talking about expenses for 2 people. Why isn't the second person working to double the income?
If not married, find a roommate and cut the rent in half.
Yes, I am talking about that (and I agree, 2nd person having a job obviously makes it better) but I was responding to someone's statement that 2 people could live "quite sufficiently" off a single income in a low-cost area such as those that the poster listed.
On a related note, maybe my own state is not as low cost as I thought.
Switching to my state now, since that's what I know best. If I were to average the rents here in Nebraska, I would maybe drop it down to $550. Yes, buying is cheaper...but we're talking about low income, so assuming they have no existing debt, a "good" credit score and $1000 down payment, they could afford $63,000.00 house (monthly payment $600). In order to do a no or low money down loan the house has to meet an FHA inspection. Honestly, you're not going to find a home that meets FHA requirements for that price here. (I know -I've been looking to buy for the last 15 months, and most houses under $90K aren't going to meet those minimum inspection requirements.) I get what you're saying but it's not as simple as that.
what calculator is putting a 600 monthly payment on a $63K home?
That sounds about right where I am (at least ~15 years ago).. Mortgage after 20% down was $62,000. Our payments with taxes, interest (we had a good rate), and insurance were ~$600/mo. And that is with no PMI added (we had 20% down). (Note: you wouldn't be able to find a house for $80,000 in my area now that wasn't a non-livable as-is fixer-upper).
The change in rates from ~7% down to sub 4% is a reduction of 150-200 dollars a month(at $60K)
I refinanced a few years back and took almost $300 a month off our payments.0 -
Rosemary7391 wrote: »juliegilburd wrote: »Rosemary7391 wrote: »juliegilburd wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »Rosemary7391 wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »Living wage in the UK is simply enough to feed, shelter and transport yourself. Not about supporting a family too. So the minimum wage is an absolute joke because it doesn't actually meet minimums. I have no clue how that compares to the US right enough.
Which is the point/purpose of a minimum wage. And exactly as it should be.
The minimum doesn't include providing for anyone else.
My point is, our minimum wage is below the living wage. Although the government rebranded the minimum as the living wage without making it an actual living wage.
Whether or not the UK minimum wage is sufficient to support a single person depends on quite a few factors, primarily their location. In many parts of the country (aka not London/commuter belt) it's perfectly possible - but probably not fun unless you're into cheap hobbies. I've done it myself so it does get on my nerves slightly when people blanketly claim the minimum wage isn't enough for a minimum living cost. It isn't in London, but that's a different claim.
Just as in the US(Excepting NY, DC, Seattle, LA/SF) It's quite sufficient. and in some places more than sufficient. Places like Montgomery AL, or Columbia, SC, or Abilene TX, It's sufficient for a couple on a single income, these are obviously examples, and not an exhaustive list.
The last statement does not make sense to me. Minimum wage in the U.S. is $9.00/hr. At 40 hours a week, 52 weeks a year ($18,720 annually), that puts the earner in the 2nd to lowest income bracket for 2017, which means they would take home about $1400 if filing married/jointly. I just checked Craigslist and see an average rental for an apartment in Columbia SC could easily be $750/mo. (rents ranged from $575 up to $1200, though the higher end were clearly luxury apts.) So a budget for two people is supposed to look like this?
Rent $750
Utilities (gas/electric/water) $150+ (in my experience, this can be more)
Renter's Insurance $15
Phone (basic cell plan for 2 people) $60
Car payment $250 -OR- Cab/Bus fare for travel to/from work, stores, etc. $120
Laundry $25
That leaves $150-$270 for all the rest... groceries (for 2), life insurance, internet service, healthcare co-pays, haircuts, clothing, car insurance. Not all of those are "necessities", but realistically are a part of most people's lives. How is that quite sufficient? Even if they do get some assistance through SNAP, I just don't see it as "quite sufficient." Even the lowest earners deserve to have an extra $100 a month to put in an emergency fund, you will notice there's no room for that in this hypothetical budget.
Took me forever to type this response, so apologies if anyone covered this angle in the interim.
I'm going to copy your list and make some adjustments - obviously I'm in the UK so serious pinch of salt required...
Rent $750
Utilities (gas/electric/water) $150+ (in my experience, this can be more) I pay £50 ~ $70 in the UK - is it really so much more expensive in the US? I have a big flat with 10ft ceilings, it isn't cheap to heat...
Renter's Insurance $15
Phone (basic cell plan for 2 people) $60 Twice my mobile bill of £15 gives me ~$40
Car payment $250 -OR- Cab/Bus fare for travel to/from work, stores, etc. $120 If you work a minimum wage job wouldn't you walk to work/stores/etc? I get the occasional local bus/cab/train, maybe £20/month ~ $25?
Laundry $25 Ehh???
Do you not have any sort of property/local amenity taxes to pay though? Or is it all income tax?
I do often find that people who have never had to live on less don't understand just how little it is possible to get things for. If you've never known any different they might well be happy with that And they might enjoy the time they have too!
As a caveat I should have said, I'm using approximate figures, but trying to not be crazy-high on my estimates.
Property taxes are paid by the owner of the property (and theoretically incorporated into the rent amounts). There are state and local sales taxes in my state. Those are just paid at the store when buying taxable items. I live in a fairly low-cost state (Nebraska) have lived in a large city and in two different towns of <200 residents, and my lowest electric bill while living in an apt. was $60, highest about $150. (In a house, bills were $150 up to $375 at times). But there's also a separate natural gas company avg. $50-75/mo. Water bills range from $30-75/mo. Sometimes water is included in rent, but not always.
Yes, you have a point about the transportation. Walking and biking are mostly free except for shoes and maintenance. So we could eliminate that completely, or drop it down to $20/mo for ongoing maintenance.
If you live in apartment you don't usually have a washer/dryer. $1.25+ per load to wash, $1.50+ per load to dry. Average of 3 loads per week for 2 people (example - linens, business clothes, casual clothes) comes to $33 per 4 weeks.
Phone - that is straight out of my budget. Husband and I have 2 flip phones (i.e. not smart phones) with a very basic plan and it costs us $55/mo. When we each had a smart phone with internet the bill was about $175/mo.
Maybe I'm wrong about how these costs play out when compared over the US.
Wow - even the smallest places I've seen here have a washer at least - not always a dryer, but at least a washer.
I guess with the US being so much bigger some things do just cost more to provide than in a more dense country.
I'm in Chicago, so not participating in the cheap living discussion, but here generally speaking rentals won't have in unit washer/driers (and I've never heard of having a washer and no drier since driers got common). Condos all have washer/driers. That was one of the big perks for me years ago when I decided to buy, ridiculous as it sounds.
That doesn't mean you have to go to the laundromat (although I had a place where I did -- in a reasonably expensive part of town, even, although this was late '90s). You will often have a place in the building (but coin operated). Renting a house or a condo or maybe some 2-flats might be different (although my laudromat place was a 2-flat). (Generally if it doesn't have a washer/drier you aren't permitted to add one and there's usually nowhere to do it.)
For the record, here a 30-day pass for public transportation is $100.0 -
VintageFeline wrote: »suzannesimmons3 wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »Ah the mythical everyone is perfectly able to get a better job/become healthy fairy. We have those in the UK too.
There was a proposal to issue sort of gift cards for some welfare benefits here. It hasn't, as yet, gained traction. Because even for those with most disdain for poor people it leaves a bad taste in the mouth. And if your life is a grinding drudge of trying to make it to the end of the week whilst the rest of society judges you for not bettering yourself, who am I to judge you for having a soda, or a beer or whatever.
I was attacked once because I bought a £3 DVD in the run up to Christmas when I was flat *kitten* broke and had to ask for help (was at uni and it was through their hardship fund). And yet I have paid plenty of taxes. But I'm a terrible person because I bought something to make me feel better about being poor and alone (estranged from family) at Christmas.
Could happen to any of us. Perhaps if wages were actual living wages then we wouldn't need to have so many of these discussions.
What government doesn't want people to stop claiming benefits. If you read my post not once did I say "i" thought....
It's actually of economic benefit to have "poor" people. So there's a lot of bluff and bluster about welfare ut there's no actual desire on the inside to eliminate it, that's the story fed to the poor tax payer to push through ideological policies.
Absolutely agree. The system is oppressive and given any chance, it will further suppress and exploit people with low SES, minorities, women, and people with disabilities.5 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Rosemary7391 wrote: »juliegilburd wrote: »Rosemary7391 wrote: »juliegilburd wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »Rosemary7391 wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »Living wage in the UK is simply enough to feed, shelter and transport yourself. Not about supporting a family too. So the minimum wage is an absolute joke because it doesn't actually meet minimums. I have no clue how that compares to the US right enough.
Which is the point/purpose of a minimum wage. And exactly as it should be.
The minimum doesn't include providing for anyone else.
My point is, our minimum wage is below the living wage. Although the government rebranded the minimum as the living wage without making it an actual living wage.
Whether or not the UK minimum wage is sufficient to support a single person depends on quite a few factors, primarily their location. In many parts of the country (aka not London/commuter belt) it's perfectly possible - but probably not fun unless you're into cheap hobbies. I've done it myself so it does get on my nerves slightly when people blanketly claim the minimum wage isn't enough for a minimum living cost. It isn't in London, but that's a different claim.
Just as in the US(Excepting NY, DC, Seattle, LA/SF) It's quite sufficient. and in some places more than sufficient. Places like Montgomery AL, or Columbia, SC, or Abilene TX, It's sufficient for a couple on a single income, these are obviously examples, and not an exhaustive list.
The last statement does not make sense to me. Minimum wage in the U.S. is $9.00/hr. At 40 hours a week, 52 weeks a year ($18,720 annually), that puts the earner in the 2nd to lowest income bracket for 2017, which means they would take home about $1400 if filing married/jointly. I just checked Craigslist and see an average rental for an apartment in Columbia SC could easily be $750/mo. (rents ranged from $575 up to $1200, though the higher end were clearly luxury apts.) So a budget for two people is supposed to look like this?
Rent $750
Utilities (gas/electric/water) $150+ (in my experience, this can be more)
Renter's Insurance $15
Phone (basic cell plan for 2 people) $60
Car payment $250 -OR- Cab/Bus fare for travel to/from work, stores, etc. $120
Laundry $25
That leaves $150-$270 for all the rest... groceries (for 2), life insurance, internet service, healthcare co-pays, haircuts, clothing, car insurance. Not all of those are "necessities", but realistically are a part of most people's lives. How is that quite sufficient? Even if they do get some assistance through SNAP, I just don't see it as "quite sufficient." Even the lowest earners deserve to have an extra $100 a month to put in an emergency fund, you will notice there's no room for that in this hypothetical budget.
Took me forever to type this response, so apologies if anyone covered this angle in the interim.
I'm going to copy your list and make some adjustments - obviously I'm in the UK so serious pinch of salt required...
Rent $750
Utilities (gas/electric/water) $150+ (in my experience, this can be more) I pay £50 ~ $70 in the UK - is it really so much more expensive in the US? I have a big flat with 10ft ceilings, it isn't cheap to heat...
Renter's Insurance $15
Phone (basic cell plan for 2 people) $60 Twice my mobile bill of £15 gives me ~$40
Car payment $250 -OR- Cab/Bus fare for travel to/from work, stores, etc. $120 If you work a minimum wage job wouldn't you walk to work/stores/etc? I get the occasional local bus/cab/train, maybe £20/month ~ $25?
Laundry $25 Ehh???
Do you not have any sort of property/local amenity taxes to pay though? Or is it all income tax?
I do often find that people who have never had to live on less don't understand just how little it is possible to get things for. If you've never known any different they might well be happy with that And they might enjoy the time they have too!
As a caveat I should have said, I'm using approximate figures, but trying to not be crazy-high on my estimates.
Property taxes are paid by the owner of the property (and theoretically incorporated into the rent amounts). There are state and local sales taxes in my state. Those are just paid at the store when buying taxable items. I live in a fairly low-cost state (Nebraska) have lived in a large city and in two different towns of <200 residents, and my lowest electric bill while living in an apt. was $60, highest about $150. (In a house, bills were $150 up to $375 at times). But there's also a separate natural gas company avg. $50-75/mo. Water bills range from $30-75/mo. Sometimes water is included in rent, but not always.
Yes, you have a point about the transportation. Walking and biking are mostly free except for shoes and maintenance. So we could eliminate that completely, or drop it down to $20/mo for ongoing maintenance.
If you live in apartment you don't usually have a washer/dryer. $1.25+ per load to wash, $1.50+ per load to dry. Average of 3 loads per week for 2 people (example - linens, business clothes, casual clothes) comes to $33 per 4 weeks.
Phone - that is straight out of my budget. Husband and I have 2 flip phones (i.e. not smart phones) with a very basic plan and it costs us $55/mo. When we each had a smart phone with internet the bill was about $175/mo.
Maybe I'm wrong about how these costs play out when compared over the US.
Wow - even the smallest places I've seen here have a washer at least - not always a dryer, but at least a washer.
I guess with the US being so much bigger some things do just cost more to provide than in a more dense country.
I'm in Chicago, so not participating in the cheap living discussion, but here generally speaking rentals won't have in unit washer/driers (and I've never heard of having a washer and no drier since driers got common). Condos all have washer/driers. That was one of the big perks for me years ago when I decided to buy, ridiculous as it sounds.
That doesn't mean you have to go to the laundromat (although I had a place where I did -- in a reasonably expensive part of town, even, although this was late '90s). You will often have a place in the building (but coin operated). Renting a house or a condo or maybe some 2-flats might be different (although my laudromat place was a 2-flat). (Generally if it doesn't have a washer/drier you aren't permitted to add one and there's usually nowhere to do it.)
For the record, here a 30-day pass for public transportation is $100.
I had a washer when I moved into this flat, and it was built in 1884 so obviously someone made the space for it later on. I mean, they just sit under the kitchen counter - yeah you lose a cupboard space, but it is really useful! Quite often you get combined washer/driers, but if it isn't then there might not be a drier. We have a shared washing line outside so I don't need a drier although I acquired a hand me down from my parents.
In Oxford my monthly bus pass was about £40 when I had one. I just walk in Glasgow mostly. Nice thing is as a single female I'm still perfectly safe living on the cheaper side of the city centre, and it's quite affordable. 30minute walk to George Sq, the centre of the centre! Personally I don't think even basic jobs where you need to pay for high rent or transport to work it should pay minimum wage - wages should reflect the cost of living in the area as well as the skill required.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »BTW, up here there is no such thing as food stamps. Very few schools have any sort of food program - a small number offer a bit of extra breakfast. There are food banks through donated foods but that's it. And food is more expensive up here by quite a lot.
So you are asserting that people in poverty in Canada do not get gov't aid? Or just that it is not in the very specific form that some of it takes in the US (i.e., food assistance, school lunches).
For example, we've established that Australia (for the most part) does not have aid in the SNAP format, but instead provides non-earmarked funds that cover a variety of needs.
How does aid to needy people work in Canada, if anyone can answer? I'm reasonably certain it's not just private aid/charities.
There is some welfare. It varies between provinces
Up here in Alberta (Canada) a family of 5 could get just under $500 for a month's worth of groceries, and just over $500 to cover other bills like shelter, electrical, and and water bills, and transportation. It is something of a joke. I spend about $300 a week on food for us, over $1200/month, and that excludes some of our meat that we get from a family member's farm. Property taxes are well over $3000 a year. Heating is ridiculous in the winter. Renting would be impossible too as a below average 2-bedroom rental is over a $1000 and may not cover all bills.
One NEEDS to rely on charity to get by up here. Our food banks and drop in centres are charities.
Surprisingly, it looks like the States gets better benefits for their needy.
Based on what?
Edit: here's a pretty good comparison that indicates for poor families there's a lot more available in Canada than in the US. https://gspp.berkeley.edu/assets/uploads/research/pdf/hoynes_stabile_submission_04272017.pdf
I started to scan that but it is 52 pages long and mind numbing. It doesn't appear to address Canada's higher cost of living... What would you like me to read in it?
The difference in the extent to which lower incomes are adjusted up appears inconsistent with the claim that the US provides more income support/aid for lower income people.
Also hard to say Canada, as a whole, has a higher cost of living than the US, as a whole. I'd be curious how my housing costs compare to yours, for example.
Average house sales in my city are between $480,000 and $501,000 over the last two months. That's average. Half cost more. I do live in an expensive city though. It tends to be more expensive in the west. The prairies are cheaper. So is the east.
Rental rates are high too. A 2-bedroom condo is around $1200 but the average has approached $1500 when times were good. It's fallen with the oil prices.
Food costs are high here too.
Examples are here:
https://www.expatistan.com/cost-of-living/calgary
In Alberta, welfare doesn't go far.
Well, if you trust the site you linked, it says cost of living is 13% cheaper in your town than mine. Food is higher for you, but everything else scores higher for me.
The bigger point is still that according to the article I linked Canada seems to provide more aid for the lowest income families (even ignoring the health care difference).0 -
Packerjohn wrote: »juliegilburd wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »Rosemary7391 wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »Living wage in the UK is simply enough to feed, shelter and transport yourself. Not about supporting a family too. So the minimum wage is an absolute joke because it doesn't actually meet minimums. I have no clue how that compares to the US right enough.
Which is the point/purpose of a minimum wage. And exactly as it should be.
The minimum doesn't include providing for anyone else.
My point is, our minimum wage is below the living wage. Although the government rebranded the minimum as the living wage without making it an actual living wage.
Whether or not the UK minimum wage is sufficient to support a single person depends on quite a few factors, primarily their location. In many parts of the country (aka not London/commuter belt) it's perfectly possible - but probably not fun unless you're into cheap hobbies. I've done it myself so it does get on my nerves slightly when people blanketly claim the minimum wage isn't enough for a minimum living cost. It isn't in London, but that's a different claim.
Just as in the US(Excepting NY, DC, Seattle, LA/SF) It's quite sufficient. and in some places more than sufficient. Places like Montgomery AL, or Columbia, SC, or Abilene TX, It's sufficient for a couple on a single income, these are obviously examples, and not an exhaustive list.
The last statement does not make sense to me. Minimum wage in the U.S. is $9.00/hr. At 40 hours a week, 52 weeks a year ($18,720 annually), that puts the earner in the 2nd to lowest income bracket for 2017, which means they would take home about $1400 if filing married/jointly. I just checked Craigslist and see an average rental for an apartment in Columbia SC could easily be $750/mo. (rents ranged from $575 up to $1200, though the higher end were clearly luxury apts.) So a budget for two people is supposed to look like this?
Rent $750
Utilities (gas/electric/water) $150+ (in my experience, this can be more)
Renter's Insurance $15
Phone (basic cell plan for 2 people) $60
Car payment $250 -OR- Cab/Bus fare for travel to/from work, stores, etc. $120
Laundry $25
That leaves $150-$270 for all the rest... groceries (for 2), life insurance, internet service, healthcare co-pays, haircuts, clothing, car insurance. Not all of those are "necessities", but realistically are a part of most people's lives. How is that quite sufficient? Even if they do get some assistance through SNAP, I just don't see it as "quite sufficient." Even the lowest earners deserve to have an extra $100 a month to put in an emergency fund, you will notice there's no room for that in this hypothetical budget.
Took me forever to type this response, so apologies if anyone covered this angle in the interim.
ETA: I guess minimum wage in South Carolina is actually $7.25, so that changes the take home to $1,131 per month. They changed minimum wage to $9 in my state a few years back and I forgot that wasn't nation-wide.
You're talking about expenses for 2 people. Why isn't the second person working to double the income?
If not married, find a roommate and cut the rent in half.
ditto. At lowest percentile wages, haven't people traditionally NOT expected to afford their own place - either renting a room as a boarder, or sharing with roommates. But it is now apparently often-times expected (and people expect to be able to easily afford perishable non-local food that wouldn't have been available to buy at all decades ago). Expecting to own a car when dirt poor is a pretty new expectation too (at least outside rural areas). It wasn't the case 20 years ago - you took the bus (currently $75/mo in my city or $37.50/mo if you qualify for a reduced fare).
And to a later post- who the hell needs to do 3 loads of laundry per week for 2 people?! from "business clothes", I'm assuming it's not 8 hours/day of hard physical labor. Clothes don't usually need to be washed after a single wear (and I'm guessing most people without their own washer and dryer and without loads of excess time realize this).
I didn't have a washer and dryer for a few years (it was a choice, not an economic necessity) and I did 2-3 loads almost every week. At the time I was working in Arizona and although I wasn't doing physical labor, I did work in a warehouse without air conditioning so I really didn't want to wear shirts over multiple days. Add running clothes, towels, and sheets and it's easy to get 2-3 loads of laundry per week, especially when the washers are regular capacity.1 -
Rosemary7391 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Rosemary7391 wrote: »juliegilburd wrote: »Rosemary7391 wrote: »juliegilburd wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »Rosemary7391 wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »Living wage in the UK is simply enough to feed, shelter and transport yourself. Not about supporting a family too. So the minimum wage is an absolute joke because it doesn't actually meet minimums. I have no clue how that compares to the US right enough.
Which is the point/purpose of a minimum wage. And exactly as it should be.
The minimum doesn't include providing for anyone else.
My point is, our minimum wage is below the living wage. Although the government rebranded the minimum as the living wage without making it an actual living wage.
Whether or not the UK minimum wage is sufficient to support a single person depends on quite a few factors, primarily their location. In many parts of the country (aka not London/commuter belt) it's perfectly possible - but probably not fun unless you're into cheap hobbies. I've done it myself so it does get on my nerves slightly when people blanketly claim the minimum wage isn't enough for a minimum living cost. It isn't in London, but that's a different claim.
Just as in the US(Excepting NY, DC, Seattle, LA/SF) It's quite sufficient. and in some places more than sufficient. Places like Montgomery AL, or Columbia, SC, or Abilene TX, It's sufficient for a couple on a single income, these are obviously examples, and not an exhaustive list.
The last statement does not make sense to me. Minimum wage in the U.S. is $9.00/hr. At 40 hours a week, 52 weeks a year ($18,720 annually), that puts the earner in the 2nd to lowest income bracket for 2017, which means they would take home about $1400 if filing married/jointly. I just checked Craigslist and see an average rental for an apartment in Columbia SC could easily be $750/mo. (rents ranged from $575 up to $1200, though the higher end were clearly luxury apts.) So a budget for two people is supposed to look like this?
Rent $750
Utilities (gas/electric/water) $150+ (in my experience, this can be more)
Renter's Insurance $15
Phone (basic cell plan for 2 people) $60
Car payment $250 -OR- Cab/Bus fare for travel to/from work, stores, etc. $120
Laundry $25
That leaves $150-$270 for all the rest... groceries (for 2), life insurance, internet service, healthcare co-pays, haircuts, clothing, car insurance. Not all of those are "necessities", but realistically are a part of most people's lives. How is that quite sufficient? Even if they do get some assistance through SNAP, I just don't see it as "quite sufficient." Even the lowest earners deserve to have an extra $100 a month to put in an emergency fund, you will notice there's no room for that in this hypothetical budget.
Took me forever to type this response, so apologies if anyone covered this angle in the interim.
I'm going to copy your list and make some adjustments - obviously I'm in the UK so serious pinch of salt required...
Rent $750
Utilities (gas/electric/water) $150+ (in my experience, this can be more) I pay £50 ~ $70 in the UK - is it really so much more expensive in the US? I have a big flat with 10ft ceilings, it isn't cheap to heat...
Renter's Insurance $15
Phone (basic cell plan for 2 people) $60 Twice my mobile bill of £15 gives me ~$40
Car payment $250 -OR- Cab/Bus fare for travel to/from work, stores, etc. $120 If you work a minimum wage job wouldn't you walk to work/stores/etc? I get the occasional local bus/cab/train, maybe £20/month ~ $25?
Laundry $25 Ehh???
Do you not have any sort of property/local amenity taxes to pay though? Or is it all income tax?
I do often find that people who have never had to live on less don't understand just how little it is possible to get things for. If you've never known any different they might well be happy with that And they might enjoy the time they have too!
As a caveat I should have said, I'm using approximate figures, but trying to not be crazy-high on my estimates.
Property taxes are paid by the owner of the property (and theoretically incorporated into the rent amounts). There are state and local sales taxes in my state. Those are just paid at the store when buying taxable items. I live in a fairly low-cost state (Nebraska) have lived in a large city and in two different towns of <200 residents, and my lowest electric bill while living in an apt. was $60, highest about $150. (In a house, bills were $150 up to $375 at times). But there's also a separate natural gas company avg. $50-75/mo. Water bills range from $30-75/mo. Sometimes water is included in rent, but not always.
Yes, you have a point about the transportation. Walking and biking are mostly free except for shoes and maintenance. So we could eliminate that completely, or drop it down to $20/mo for ongoing maintenance.
If you live in apartment you don't usually have a washer/dryer. $1.25+ per load to wash, $1.50+ per load to dry. Average of 3 loads per week for 2 people (example - linens, business clothes, casual clothes) comes to $33 per 4 weeks.
Phone - that is straight out of my budget. Husband and I have 2 flip phones (i.e. not smart phones) with a very basic plan and it costs us $55/mo. When we each had a smart phone with internet the bill was about $175/mo.
Maybe I'm wrong about how these costs play out when compared over the US.
Wow - even the smallest places I've seen here have a washer at least - not always a dryer, but at least a washer.
I guess with the US being so much bigger some things do just cost more to provide than in a more dense country.
I'm in Chicago, so not participating in the cheap living discussion, but here generally speaking rentals won't have in unit washer/driers (and I've never heard of having a washer and no drier since driers got common). Condos all have washer/driers. That was one of the big perks for me years ago when I decided to buy, ridiculous as it sounds.
That doesn't mean you have to go to the laundromat (although I had a place where I did -- in a reasonably expensive part of town, even, although this was late '90s). You will often have a place in the building (but coin operated). Renting a house or a condo or maybe some 2-flats might be different (although my laudromat place was a 2-flat). (Generally if it doesn't have a washer/drier you aren't permitted to add one and there's usually nowhere to do it.)
For the record, here a 30-day pass for public transportation is $100.
I had a washer when I moved into this flat, and it was built in 1884 so obviously someone made the space for it later on. I mean, they just sit under the kitchen counter - yeah you lose a cupboard space, but it is really useful! Quite often you get combined washer/driers, but if it isn't then there might not be a drier. We have a shared washing line outside so I don't need a drier although I acquired a hand me down from my parents.
Like I said, generally they don't let you add one here. I really wanted to in the apt I mentioned (it was the second floor of a house that had been converted into 2 apts, and pretty large) where I had to go to the laudromat, but it wasn't permitted, not code or something, I forget. One of the reasons I decided to move out and buy (I would have bought for my next place anyway, just made me do it a year or so sooner than I might have, but obviously I wasn't living on minimum wage).2 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Rosemary7391 wrote: »juliegilburd wrote: »Rosemary7391 wrote: »juliegilburd wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »Rosemary7391 wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »Living wage in the UK is simply enough to feed, shelter and transport yourself. Not about supporting a family too. So the minimum wage is an absolute joke because it doesn't actually meet minimums. I have no clue how that compares to the US right enough.
Which is the point/purpose of a minimum wage. And exactly as it should be.
The minimum doesn't include providing for anyone else.
My point is, our minimum wage is below the living wage. Although the government rebranded the minimum as the living wage without making it an actual living wage.
Whether or not the UK minimum wage is sufficient to support a single person depends on quite a few factors, primarily their location. In many parts of the country (aka not London/commuter belt) it's perfectly possible - but probably not fun unless you're into cheap hobbies. I've done it myself so it does get on my nerves slightly when people blanketly claim the minimum wage isn't enough for a minimum living cost. It isn't in London, but that's a different claim.
Just as in the US(Excepting NY, DC, Seattle, LA/SF) It's quite sufficient. and in some places more than sufficient. Places like Montgomery AL, or Columbia, SC, or Abilene TX, It's sufficient for a couple on a single income, these are obviously examples, and not an exhaustive list.
The last statement does not make sense to me. Minimum wage in the U.S. is $9.00/hr. At 40 hours a week, 52 weeks a year ($18,720 annually), that puts the earner in the 2nd to lowest income bracket for 2017, which means they would take home about $1400 if filing married/jointly. I just checked Craigslist and see an average rental for an apartment in Columbia SC could easily be $750/mo. (rents ranged from $575 up to $1200, though the higher end were clearly luxury apts.) So a budget for two people is supposed to look like this?
Rent $750
Utilities (gas/electric/water) $150+ (in my experience, this can be more)
Renter's Insurance $15
Phone (basic cell plan for 2 people) $60
Car payment $250 -OR- Cab/Bus fare for travel to/from work, stores, etc. $120
Laundry $25
That leaves $150-$270 for all the rest... groceries (for 2), life insurance, internet service, healthcare co-pays, haircuts, clothing, car insurance. Not all of those are "necessities", but realistically are a part of most people's lives. How is that quite sufficient? Even if they do get some assistance through SNAP, I just don't see it as "quite sufficient." Even the lowest earners deserve to have an extra $100 a month to put in an emergency fund, you will notice there's no room for that in this hypothetical budget.
Took me forever to type this response, so apologies if anyone covered this angle in the interim.
I'm going to copy your list and make some adjustments - obviously I'm in the UK so serious pinch of salt required...
Rent $750
Utilities (gas/electric/water) $150+ (in my experience, this can be more) I pay £50 ~ $70 in the UK - is it really so much more expensive in the US? I have a big flat with 10ft ceilings, it isn't cheap to heat...
Renter's Insurance $15
Phone (basic cell plan for 2 people) $60 Twice my mobile bill of £15 gives me ~$40
Car payment $250 -OR- Cab/Bus fare for travel to/from work, stores, etc. $120 If you work a minimum wage job wouldn't you walk to work/stores/etc? I get the occasional local bus/cab/train, maybe £20/month ~ $25?
Laundry $25 Ehh???
Do you not have any sort of property/local amenity taxes to pay though? Or is it all income tax?
I do often find that people who have never had to live on less don't understand just how little it is possible to get things for. If you've never known any different they might well be happy with that And they might enjoy the time they have too!
As a caveat I should have said, I'm using approximate figures, but trying to not be crazy-high on my estimates.
Property taxes are paid by the owner of the property (and theoretically incorporated into the rent amounts). There are state and local sales taxes in my state. Those are just paid at the store when buying taxable items. I live in a fairly low-cost state (Nebraska) have lived in a large city and in two different towns of <200 residents, and my lowest electric bill while living in an apt. was $60, highest about $150. (In a house, bills were $150 up to $375 at times). But there's also a separate natural gas company avg. $50-75/mo. Water bills range from $30-75/mo. Sometimes water is included in rent, but not always.
Yes, you have a point about the transportation. Walking and biking are mostly free except for shoes and maintenance. So we could eliminate that completely, or drop it down to $20/mo for ongoing maintenance.
If you live in apartment you don't usually have a washer/dryer. $1.25+ per load to wash, $1.50+ per load to dry. Average of 3 loads per week for 2 people (example - linens, business clothes, casual clothes) comes to $33 per 4 weeks.
Phone - that is straight out of my budget. Husband and I have 2 flip phones (i.e. not smart phones) with a very basic plan and it costs us $55/mo. When we each had a smart phone with internet the bill was about $175/mo.
Maybe I'm wrong about how these costs play out when compared over the US.
Wow - even the smallest places I've seen here have a washer at least - not always a dryer, but at least a washer.
I guess with the US being so much bigger some things do just cost more to provide than in a more dense country.
I'm in Chicago, so not participating in the cheap living discussion, but here generally speaking rentals won't have in unit washer/driers (and I've never heard of having a washer and no drier since driers got common). Condos all have washer/driers. That was one of the big perks for me years ago when I decided to buy, ridiculous as it sounds.
That doesn't mean you have to go to the laundromat (although I had a place where I did -- in a reasonably expensive part of town, even, although this was late '90s). You will often have a place in the building (but coin operated). Renting a house or a condo or maybe some 2-flats might be different (although my laudromat place was a 2-flat). (Generally if it doesn't have a washer/drier you aren't permitted to add one and there's usually nowhere to do it.)
For the record, here a 30-day pass for public transportation is $100.
It varies here - we are fairly low density urban for the most part, with the majority of rental apartments in individual houses (most frequently an upper and a lower). Most apartments in a private house have hook-ups in the basement. They may or may not already have a washer &/or dryer (in most cases, if they do, it's because a prior tenant left them behind at some point). Some apartment complexes - these usually have coin-op machines in each building. Some resident-only apartment buildings (these probably most have coin-op somewhere in the basement). And some lower end commercial-residential mix buildings (these are less likely to have hook-ups or coin-op machines, since the lower floor is a business), and some high end commercial-residential mixed buildings that I'm guessing will likely have some sort of in-apartment hook-up (and possibly the machines in place as well).0 -
juliegilburd wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »Rosemary7391 wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »Living wage in the UK is simply enough to feed, shelter and transport yourself. Not about supporting a family too. So the minimum wage is an absolute joke because it doesn't actually meet minimums. I have no clue how that compares to the US right enough.
Which is the point/purpose of a minimum wage. And exactly as it should be.
The minimum doesn't include providing for anyone else.
My point is, our minimum wage is below the living wage. Although the government rebranded the minimum as the living wage without making it an actual living wage.
Whether or not the UK minimum wage is sufficient to support a single person depends on quite a few factors, primarily their location. In many parts of the country (aka not London/commuter belt) it's perfectly possible - but probably not fun unless you're into cheap hobbies. I've done it myself so it does get on my nerves slightly when people blanketly claim the minimum wage isn't enough for a minimum living cost. It isn't in London, but that's a different claim.
Just as in the US(Excepting NY, DC, Seattle, LA/SF) It's quite sufficient. and in some places more than sufficient. Places like Montgomery AL, or Columbia, SC, or Abilene TX, It's sufficient for a couple on a single income, these are obviously examples, and not an exhaustive list.
The last statement does not make sense to me. Minimum wage in the U.S. is $9.00/hr. At 40 hours a week, 52 weeks a year ($18,720 annually), that puts the earner in the 2nd to lowest income bracket for 2017, which means they would take home about $1400 if filing married/jointly. I just checked Craigslist and see an average rental for an apartment in Columbia SC could easily be $750/mo. (rents ranged from $575 up to $1200, though the higher end were clearly luxury apts.) So a budget for two people is supposed to look like this?
Rent $750
Utilities (gas/electric/water) $150+ (in my experience, this can be more)
Renter's Insurance $15
Phone (basic cell plan for 2 people) $60
Car payment $250 -OR- Cab/Bus fare for travel to/from work, stores, etc. $120
Laundry $25
That leaves $150-$270 for all the rest... groceries (for 2), life insurance, internet service, healthcare co-pays, haircuts, clothing, car insurance. Not all of those are "necessities", but realistically are a part of most people's lives. How is that quite sufficient? Even if they do get some assistance through SNAP, I just don't see it as "quite sufficient." Even the lowest earners deserve to have an extra $100 a month to put in an emergency fund, you will notice there's no room for that in this hypothetical budget.
Took me forever to type this response, so apologies if anyone covered this angle in the interim.
ETA: I guess minimum wage in South Carolina is actually $7.25, so that changes the take home to $1,131 per month. They changed minimum wage to $9 in my state a few years back and I forgot that wasn't nation-wide.
Numbers will vary greatly on based on location, but when I was single and had an apartment my numbers were
-rent $500 (included gas/heat, trash)
-electric around $50 a month
-renter's insurance $20
-trac phone $10 a month
-no car payment, because I paid cash for my 15 year old truck (which gave me many years, even through winter driving)
-truck insurance $50
-truck gas $25 a week/$100 a month
-groceries $40-$50 a week/around $200 a month
-laundry was in apartment building and was free to use
-miscellaneous $200ish a month (eating out, entertainment etc)
-whatever was left I put into savings
Back when I was doing this minimum wage was around $8, if I'm remembering correctly. I worked full time at a grocery store and I also went to college full time. Scholarships/student loans covered tuition and books, everything else I covered with my job.
eta: I didn't have a computer or internet-if I needed these I went to the library or used the computer lab at school.
eta#2: I actually went to school like 3/4 time, but I went year round, (summer classes), so I still graduated within the normal 4 year time frame
eta#3 I just checked and back then minimum wage was $5.15, so I did make a higher wage (surprising for what I did as a job!). So that would have made things a lot tighter for me-definitely wouldn't have had miscellaneous and savings categories.1 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Rosemary7391 wrote: »juliegilburd wrote: »Rosemary7391 wrote: »juliegilburd wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »Rosemary7391 wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »Living wage in the UK is simply enough to feed, shelter and transport yourself. Not about supporting a family too. So the minimum wage is an absolute joke because it doesn't actually meet minimums. I have no clue how that compares to the US right enough.
Which is the point/purpose of a minimum wage. And exactly as it should be.
The minimum doesn't include providing for anyone else.
My point is, our minimum wage is below the living wage. Although the government rebranded the minimum as the living wage without making it an actual living wage.
Whether or not the UK minimum wage is sufficient to support a single person depends on quite a few factors, primarily their location. In many parts of the country (aka not London/commuter belt) it's perfectly possible - but probably not fun unless you're into cheap hobbies. I've done it myself so it does get on my nerves slightly when people blanketly claim the minimum wage isn't enough for a minimum living cost. It isn't in London, but that's a different claim.
Just as in the US(Excepting NY, DC, Seattle, LA/SF) It's quite sufficient. and in some places more than sufficient. Places like Montgomery AL, or Columbia, SC, or Abilene TX, It's sufficient for a couple on a single income, these are obviously examples, and not an exhaustive list.
The last statement does not make sense to me. Minimum wage in the U.S. is $9.00/hr. At 40 hours a week, 52 weeks a year ($18,720 annually), that puts the earner in the 2nd to lowest income bracket for 2017, which means they would take home about $1400 if filing married/jointly. I just checked Craigslist and see an average rental for an apartment in Columbia SC could easily be $750/mo. (rents ranged from $575 up to $1200, though the higher end were clearly luxury apts.) So a budget for two people is supposed to look like this?
Rent $750
Utilities (gas/electric/water) $150+ (in my experience, this can be more)
Renter's Insurance $15
Phone (basic cell plan for 2 people) $60
Car payment $250 -OR- Cab/Bus fare for travel to/from work, stores, etc. $120
Laundry $25
That leaves $150-$270 for all the rest... groceries (for 2), life insurance, internet service, healthcare co-pays, haircuts, clothing, car insurance. Not all of those are "necessities", but realistically are a part of most people's lives. How is that quite sufficient? Even if they do get some assistance through SNAP, I just don't see it as "quite sufficient." Even the lowest earners deserve to have an extra $100 a month to put in an emergency fund, you will notice there's no room for that in this hypothetical budget.
Took me forever to type this response, so apologies if anyone covered this angle in the interim.
I'm going to copy your list and make some adjustments - obviously I'm in the UK so serious pinch of salt required...
Rent $750
Utilities (gas/electric/water) $150+ (in my experience, this can be more) I pay £50 ~ $70 in the UK - is it really so much more expensive in the US? I have a big flat with 10ft ceilings, it isn't cheap to heat...
Renter's Insurance $15
Phone (basic cell plan for 2 people) $60 Twice my mobile bill of £15 gives me ~$40
Car payment $250 -OR- Cab/Bus fare for travel to/from work, stores, etc. $120 If you work a minimum wage job wouldn't you walk to work/stores/etc? I get the occasional local bus/cab/train, maybe £20/month ~ $25?
Laundry $25 Ehh???
Do you not have any sort of property/local amenity taxes to pay though? Or is it all income tax?
I do often find that people who have never had to live on less don't understand just how little it is possible to get things for. If you've never known any different they might well be happy with that And they might enjoy the time they have too!
As a caveat I should have said, I'm using approximate figures, but trying to not be crazy-high on my estimates.
Property taxes are paid by the owner of the property (and theoretically incorporated into the rent amounts). There are state and local sales taxes in my state. Those are just paid at the store when buying taxable items. I live in a fairly low-cost state (Nebraska) have lived in a large city and in two different towns of <200 residents, and my lowest electric bill while living in an apt. was $60, highest about $150. (In a house, bills were $150 up to $375 at times). But there's also a separate natural gas company avg. $50-75/mo. Water bills range from $30-75/mo. Sometimes water is included in rent, but not always.
Yes, you have a point about the transportation. Walking and biking are mostly free except for shoes and maintenance. So we could eliminate that completely, or drop it down to $20/mo for ongoing maintenance.
If you live in apartment you don't usually have a washer/dryer. $1.25+ per load to wash, $1.50+ per load to dry. Average of 3 loads per week for 2 people (example - linens, business clothes, casual clothes) comes to $33 per 4 weeks.
Phone - that is straight out of my budget. Husband and I have 2 flip phones (i.e. not smart phones) with a very basic plan and it costs us $55/mo. When we each had a smart phone with internet the bill was about $175/mo.
Maybe I'm wrong about how these costs play out when compared over the US.
Wow - even the smallest places I've seen here have a washer at least - not always a dryer, but at least a washer.
I guess with the US being so much bigger some things do just cost more to provide than in a more dense country.
I'm in Chicago, so not participating in the cheap living discussion, but here generally speaking rentals won't have in unit washer/driers (and I've never heard of having a washer and no drier since driers got common). Condos all have washer/driers. That was one of the big perks for me years ago when I decided to buy, ridiculous as it sounds.
That doesn't mean you have to go to the laundromat (although I had a place where I did -- in a reasonably expensive part of town, even, although this was late '90s). You will often have a place in the building (but coin operated). Renting a house or a condo or maybe some 2-flats might be different (although my laudromat place was a 2-flat). (Generally if it doesn't have a washer/drier you aren't permitted to add one and there's usually nowhere to do it.)
For the record, here a 30-day pass for public transportation is $100.
It varies here - we are fairly low density urban for the most part, with the majority of rental apartments in individual houses (most frequently an upper and a lower). Most apartments in a private house have hook-ups in the basement. They may or may not already have a washer &/or dryer (in most cases, if they do, it's because a prior tenant left them behind at some point). Some apartment complexes - these usually have coin-op machines in each building. Some resident-only apartment buildings (these probably most have coin-op somewhere in the basement). And some lower end commercial-residential mix buildings (these are less likely to have hook-ups or coin-op machines, since the lower floor is a business), and some high end commercial-residential mixed buildings that I'm guessing will likely have some sort of in-apartment hook-up (and possibly the machines in place as well).
Dryers provide an additional complication as the type of hook-up varies. Most places here have gas dryer hookup, but some have electric. (In addition to attrition, this is another reason you may often find one and not the other already in place). Also- the dryer is not truly necessary. When the pre-existing one went, I didn't bother to replace it (like I did the washer). Most of my clothes that get washed most regularly are synthetics that don't necessarily play well with the dryer heat (or fabric softener residue from another tenant). (Now the spin cycle on a washing machine, on the other hand, truly is wondrous and almost necessary.. take that from someone who often had to wash their clothes in the bathtub when I was a kid).0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Rosemary7391 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Rosemary7391 wrote: »juliegilburd wrote: »Rosemary7391 wrote: »juliegilburd wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »Rosemary7391 wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »Living wage in the UK is simply enough to feed, shelter and transport yourself. Not about supporting a family too. So the minimum wage is an absolute joke because it doesn't actually meet minimums. I have no clue how that compares to the US right enough.
Which is the point/purpose of a minimum wage. And exactly as it should be.
The minimum doesn't include providing for anyone else.
My point is, our minimum wage is below the living wage. Although the government rebranded the minimum as the living wage without making it an actual living wage.
Whether or not the UK minimum wage is sufficient to support a single person depends on quite a few factors, primarily their location. In many parts of the country (aka not London/commuter belt) it's perfectly possible - but probably not fun unless you're into cheap hobbies. I've done it myself so it does get on my nerves slightly when people blanketly claim the minimum wage isn't enough for a minimum living cost. It isn't in London, but that's a different claim.
Just as in the US(Excepting NY, DC, Seattle, LA/SF) It's quite sufficient. and in some places more than sufficient. Places like Montgomery AL, or Columbia, SC, or Abilene TX, It's sufficient for a couple on a single income, these are obviously examples, and not an exhaustive list.
The last statement does not make sense to me. Minimum wage in the U.S. is $9.00/hr. At 40 hours a week, 52 weeks a year ($18,720 annually), that puts the earner in the 2nd to lowest income bracket for 2017, which means they would take home about $1400 if filing married/jointly. I just checked Craigslist and see an average rental for an apartment in Columbia SC could easily be $750/mo. (rents ranged from $575 up to $1200, though the higher end were clearly luxury apts.) So a budget for two people is supposed to look like this?
Rent $750
Utilities (gas/electric/water) $150+ (in my experience, this can be more)
Renter's Insurance $15
Phone (basic cell plan for 2 people) $60
Car payment $250 -OR- Cab/Bus fare for travel to/from work, stores, etc. $120
Laundry $25
That leaves $150-$270 for all the rest... groceries (for 2), life insurance, internet service, healthcare co-pays, haircuts, clothing, car insurance. Not all of those are "necessities", but realistically are a part of most people's lives. How is that quite sufficient? Even if they do get some assistance through SNAP, I just don't see it as "quite sufficient." Even the lowest earners deserve to have an extra $100 a month to put in an emergency fund, you will notice there's no room for that in this hypothetical budget.
Took me forever to type this response, so apologies if anyone covered this angle in the interim.
I'm going to copy your list and make some adjustments - obviously I'm in the UK so serious pinch of salt required...
Rent $750
Utilities (gas/electric/water) $150+ (in my experience, this can be more) I pay £50 ~ $70 in the UK - is it really so much more expensive in the US? I have a big flat with 10ft ceilings, it isn't cheap to heat...
Renter's Insurance $15
Phone (basic cell plan for 2 people) $60 Twice my mobile bill of £15 gives me ~$40
Car payment $250 -OR- Cab/Bus fare for travel to/from work, stores, etc. $120 If you work a minimum wage job wouldn't you walk to work/stores/etc? I get the occasional local bus/cab/train, maybe £20/month ~ $25?
Laundry $25 Ehh???
Do you not have any sort of property/local amenity taxes to pay though? Or is it all income tax?
I do often find that people who have never had to live on less don't understand just how little it is possible to get things for. If you've never known any different they might well be happy with that And they might enjoy the time they have too!
As a caveat I should have said, I'm using approximate figures, but trying to not be crazy-high on my estimates.
Property taxes are paid by the owner of the property (and theoretically incorporated into the rent amounts). There are state and local sales taxes in my state. Those are just paid at the store when buying taxable items. I live in a fairly low-cost state (Nebraska) have lived in a large city and in two different towns of <200 residents, and my lowest electric bill while living in an apt. was $60, highest about $150. (In a house, bills were $150 up to $375 at times). But there's also a separate natural gas company avg. $50-75/mo. Water bills range from $30-75/mo. Sometimes water is included in rent, but not always.
Yes, you have a point about the transportation. Walking and biking are mostly free except for shoes and maintenance. So we could eliminate that completely, or drop it down to $20/mo for ongoing maintenance.
If you live in apartment you don't usually have a washer/dryer. $1.25+ per load to wash, $1.50+ per load to dry. Average of 3 loads per week for 2 people (example - linens, business clothes, casual clothes) comes to $33 per 4 weeks.
Phone - that is straight out of my budget. Husband and I have 2 flip phones (i.e. not smart phones) with a very basic plan and it costs us $55/mo. When we each had a smart phone with internet the bill was about $175/mo.
Maybe I'm wrong about how these costs play out when compared over the US.
Wow - even the smallest places I've seen here have a washer at least - not always a dryer, but at least a washer.
I guess with the US being so much bigger some things do just cost more to provide than in a more dense country.
I'm in Chicago, so not participating in the cheap living discussion, but here generally speaking rentals won't have in unit washer/driers (and I've never heard of having a washer and no drier since driers got common). Condos all have washer/driers. That was one of the big perks for me years ago when I decided to buy, ridiculous as it sounds.
That doesn't mean you have to go to the laundromat (although I had a place where I did -- in a reasonably expensive part of town, even, although this was late '90s). You will often have a place in the building (but coin operated). Renting a house or a condo or maybe some 2-flats might be different (although my laudromat place was a 2-flat). (Generally if it doesn't have a washer/drier you aren't permitted to add one and there's usually nowhere to do it.)
For the record, here a 30-day pass for public transportation is $100.
I had a washer when I moved into this flat, and it was built in 1884 so obviously someone made the space for it later on. I mean, they just sit under the kitchen counter - yeah you lose a cupboard space, but it is really useful! Quite often you get combined washer/driers, but if it isn't then there might not be a drier. We have a shared washing line outside so I don't need a drier although I acquired a hand me down from my parents.
Like I said, generally they don't let you add one here. I really wanted to in the apt I mentioned (it was the second floor of a house that had been converted into 2 apts, and pretty large) where I had to go to the laudromat, but it wasn't permitted, not code or something, I forget. One of the reasons I decided to move out and buy (I would have bought for my next place anyway, just made me do it a year or so sooner than I might have, but obviously I wasn't living on minimum wage).
My current place does have the hook-ups in the upper flat as well as the basement (not allowed to use the upper. they have them because the landlords had lived there once upon a time before moving to the suburbs). Most landlords (rightly so) won't trust tenants not to cause water damage due to any leaks/clogged filters/etc (especially in a lower end apartment where the condition of the machine and knowledge of the person hooking it up can be potentially dubious).0 -
VintageFeline wrote: »Rosemary7391 wrote: »juliegilburd wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »Rosemary7391 wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »Living wage in the UK is simply enough to feed, shelter and transport yourself. Not about supporting a family too. So the minimum wage is an absolute joke because it doesn't actually meet minimums. I have no clue how that compares to the US right enough.
Which is the point/purpose of a minimum wage. And exactly as it should be.
The minimum doesn't include providing for anyone else.
My point is, our minimum wage is below the living wage. Although the government rebranded the minimum as the living wage without making it an actual living wage.
Whether or not the UK minimum wage is sufficient to support a single person depends on quite a few factors, primarily their location. In many parts of the country (aka not London/commuter belt) it's perfectly possible - but probably not fun unless you're into cheap hobbies. I've done it myself so it does get on my nerves slightly when people blanketly claim the minimum wage isn't enough for a minimum living cost. It isn't in London, but that's a different claim.
Just as in the US(Excepting NY, DC, Seattle, LA/SF) It's quite sufficient. and in some places more than sufficient. Places like Montgomery AL, or Columbia, SC, or Abilene TX, It's sufficient for a couple on a single income, these are obviously examples, and not an exhaustive list.
The last statement does not make sense to me. Minimum wage in the U.S. is $9.00/hr. At 40 hours a week, 52 weeks a year ($18,720 annually), that puts the earner in the 2nd to lowest income bracket for 2017, which means they would take home about $1400 if filing married/jointly. I just checked Craigslist and see an average rental for an apartment in Columbia SC could easily be $750/mo. (rents ranged from $575 up to $1200, though the higher end were clearly luxury apts.) So a budget for two people is supposed to look like this?
Rent $750
Utilities (gas/electric/water) $150+ (in my experience, this can be more)
Renter's Insurance $15
Phone (basic cell plan for 2 people) $60
Car payment $250 -OR- Cab/Bus fare for travel to/from work, stores, etc. $120
Laundry $25
That leaves $150-$270 for all the rest... groceries (for 2), life insurance, internet service, healthcare co-pays, haircuts, clothing, car insurance. Not all of those are "necessities", but realistically are a part of most people's lives. How is that quite sufficient? Even if they do get some assistance through SNAP, I just don't see it as "quite sufficient." Even the lowest earners deserve to have an extra $100 a month to put in an emergency fund, you will notice there's no room for that in this hypothetical budget.
Took me forever to type this response, so apologies if anyone covered this angle in the interim.
I'm going to copy your list and make some adjustments - obviously I'm in the UK so serious pinch of salt required...
Rent $750
Utilities (gas/electric/water) $150+ (in my experience, this can be more) I pay £50 ~ $70 in the UK - is it really so much more expensive in the US? I have a big flat with 10ft ceilings, it isn't cheap to heat...
Renter's Insurance $15
Phone (basic cell plan for 2 people) $60 Twice my mobile bill of £15 gives me ~$40
Car payment $250 -OR- Cab/Bus fare for travel to/from work, stores, etc. $120 If you work a minimum wage job wouldn't you walk to work/stores/etc? I get the occasional local bus/cab/train, maybe £20/month ~ $25?
Laundry $25 Ehh???
Do you not have any sort of property/local amenity taxes to pay though? Or is it all income tax?
I do often find that people who have never had to live on less don't understand just how little it is possible to get things for. If you've never known any different they might well be happy with that And they might enjoy the time they have too!
I'm 35, I started working when I was 15. I have had quite a few jobs and only two of them was it feasible to walk to. Moving closer to the jobs was unaffordable.
My utilities are £75pm (about 50 for g&e, I am home a lot so mine are probably a bit higher than most in identical circumstances, 25 for water) but if you live in Scotland water is included in your council tax. But there's something to add on that isn't on the US budget, the amount of which of course varies. Mine would be £120pm. I have friends in the US and indeed, their utilities are eye watering.
I'm not including rent with mine because I do live in London and while my rent is comparatively cheap it's not representative of much of the UK, though the disparity isn't what it once was.
Many people in apartment buildings in the US don't have laundry facilities in their own home but a shared facility in the building that is coin operated. Or they literally go to the laundrette/laundromat.
It really varies. We live in a 3,000 sq ft house, in the Midwest and our electric bill fluctuates between $124-$150 a month. Gas bill: it's $20-$30 during the summer months. This past winter we moved here and we used a pellet stove instead of a furnace. We spent around $150 a month on pellets and our gas bill, separate from that, was around $75 a month. We have a well so no water bill. High speed internet is $39.99 a month. Trash, including a separate container for recycling, is $22.50 a month.
Now our old house, 10 minutes away and smaller,-our electric bill was over $200 a month. This is because we had several aquariums-including a 110 gallon Discus tank, which had a temperature in the high 80s. We also had central air and ran that a lot in the summer, (new house has windows lol). We also had city water and that was $80 a month. Summer gas bill was similar, but our winter gas bill would get in the $250-$300 range. Oh, and our old house was in a city that had its own property tax thing, (still not sure how that worked), and we had a $600 a year tax bill. 10 minutes away and a different town-no tax bill. We pretty much rolled our water and tax payments into our new, higher mortgage so it's evened out more or less.1
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