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Food Stamps Restriction
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VintageFeline wrote: »suzannesimmons3 wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »Ah the mythical everyone is perfectly able to get a better job/become healthy fairy. We have those in the UK too.
There was a proposal to issue sort of gift cards for some welfare benefits here. It hasn't, as yet, gained traction. Because even for those with most disdain for poor people it leaves a bad taste in the mouth. And if your life is a grinding drudge of trying to make it to the end of the week whilst the rest of society judges you for not bettering yourself, who am I to judge you for having a soda, or a beer or whatever.
I was attacked once because I bought a £3 DVD in the run up to Christmas when I was flat *kitten* broke and had to ask for help (was at uni and it was through their hardship fund). And yet I have paid plenty of taxes. But I'm a terrible person because I bought something to make me feel better about being poor and alone (estranged from family) at Christmas.
Could happen to any of us. Perhaps if wages were actual living wages then we wouldn't need to have so many of these discussions.
What government doesn't want people to stop claiming benefits. If you read my post not once did I say "i" thought....
It's actually of economic benefit to have "poor" people. So there's a lot of bluff and bluster about welfare ut there's no actual desire on the inside to eliminate it, that's the story fed to the poor tax payer to push through ideological policies.
Absolutely agree. The system is oppressive and given any chance, it will further suppress and exploit people with low SES, minorities, women, and people with disabilities.5 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Rosemary7391 wrote: »juliegilburd wrote: »Rosemary7391 wrote: »juliegilburd wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »Rosemary7391 wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »Living wage in the UK is simply enough to feed, shelter and transport yourself. Not about supporting a family too. So the minimum wage is an absolute joke because it doesn't actually meet minimums. I have no clue how that compares to the US right enough.
Which is the point/purpose of a minimum wage. And exactly as it should be.
The minimum doesn't include providing for anyone else.
My point is, our minimum wage is below the living wage. Although the government rebranded the minimum as the living wage without making it an actual living wage.
Whether or not the UK minimum wage is sufficient to support a single person depends on quite a few factors, primarily their location. In many parts of the country (aka not London/commuter belt) it's perfectly possible - but probably not fun unless you're into cheap hobbies. I've done it myself so it does get on my nerves slightly when people blanketly claim the minimum wage isn't enough for a minimum living cost. It isn't in London, but that's a different claim.
Just as in the US(Excepting NY, DC, Seattle, LA/SF) It's quite sufficient. and in some places more than sufficient. Places like Montgomery AL, or Columbia, SC, or Abilene TX, It's sufficient for a couple on a single income, these are obviously examples, and not an exhaustive list.
The last statement does not make sense to me. Minimum wage in the U.S. is $9.00/hr. At 40 hours a week, 52 weeks a year ($18,720 annually), that puts the earner in the 2nd to lowest income bracket for 2017, which means they would take home about $1400 if filing married/jointly. I just checked Craigslist and see an average rental for an apartment in Columbia SC could easily be $750/mo. (rents ranged from $575 up to $1200, though the higher end were clearly luxury apts.) So a budget for two people is supposed to look like this?
Rent $750
Utilities (gas/electric/water) $150+ (in my experience, this can be more)
Renter's Insurance $15
Phone (basic cell plan for 2 people) $60
Car payment $250 -OR- Cab/Bus fare for travel to/from work, stores, etc. $120
Laundry $25
That leaves $150-$270 for all the rest... groceries (for 2), life insurance, internet service, healthcare co-pays, haircuts, clothing, car insurance. Not all of those are "necessities", but realistically are a part of most people's lives. How is that quite sufficient? Even if they do get some assistance through SNAP, I just don't see it as "quite sufficient." Even the lowest earners deserve to have an extra $100 a month to put in an emergency fund, you will notice there's no room for that in this hypothetical budget.
Took me forever to type this response, so apologies if anyone covered this angle in the interim.
I'm going to copy your list and make some adjustments - obviously I'm in the UK so serious pinch of salt required...
Rent $750
Utilities (gas/electric/water) $150+ (in my experience, this can be more) I pay £50 ~ $70 in the UK - is it really so much more expensive in the US? I have a big flat with 10ft ceilings, it isn't cheap to heat...
Renter's Insurance $15
Phone (basic cell plan for 2 people) $60 Twice my mobile bill of £15 gives me ~$40
Car payment $250 -OR- Cab/Bus fare for travel to/from work, stores, etc. $120 If you work a minimum wage job wouldn't you walk to work/stores/etc? I get the occasional local bus/cab/train, maybe £20/month ~ $25?
Laundry $25 Ehh???
Do you not have any sort of property/local amenity taxes to pay though? Or is it all income tax?
I do often find that people who have never had to live on less don't understand just how little it is possible to get things for. If you've never known any different they might well be happy with that
And they might enjoy the time they have too!
As a caveat I should have said, I'm using approximate figures, but trying to not be crazy-high on my estimates.
Property taxes are paid by the owner of the property (and theoretically incorporated into the rent amounts). There are state and local sales taxes in my state. Those are just paid at the store when buying taxable items. I live in a fairly low-cost state (Nebraska) have lived in a large city and in two different towns of <200 residents, and my lowest electric bill while living in an apt. was $60, highest about $150. (In a house, bills were $150 up to $375 at times). But there's also a separate natural gas company avg. $50-75/mo. Water bills range from $30-75/mo. Sometimes water is included in rent, but not always.
Yes, you have a point about the transportation. Walking and biking are mostly free except for shoes and maintenance. So we could eliminate that completely, or drop it down to $20/mo for ongoing maintenance.
If you live in apartment you don't usually have a washer/dryer. $1.25+ per load to wash, $1.50+ per load to dry. Average of 3 loads per week for 2 people (example - linens, business clothes, casual clothes) comes to $33 per 4 weeks.
Phone - that is straight out of my budget. Husband and I have 2 flip phones (i.e. not smart phones) with a very basic plan and it costs us $55/mo. When we each had a smart phone with internet the bill was about $175/mo.
Maybe I'm wrong about how these costs play out when compared over the US.
Wow - even the smallest places I've seen here have a washer at least - not always a dryer, but at least a washer.
I guess with the US being so much bigger some things do just cost more to provide than in a more dense country.
I'm in Chicago, so not participating in the cheap living discussion, but here generally speaking rentals won't have in unit washer/driers (and I've never heard of having a washer and no drier since driers got common). Condos all have washer/driers. That was one of the big perks for me years ago when I decided to buy, ridiculous as it sounds.
That doesn't mean you have to go to the laundromat (although I had a place where I did -- in a reasonably expensive part of town, even, although this was late '90s). You will often have a place in the building (but coin operated). Renting a house or a condo or maybe some 2-flats might be different (although my laudromat place was a 2-flat). (Generally if it doesn't have a washer/drier you aren't permitted to add one and there's usually nowhere to do it.)
For the record, here a 30-day pass for public transportation is $100.
I had a washer when I moved into this flat, and it was built in 1884 so obviously someone made the space for it later on. I mean, they just sit under the kitchen counter - yeah you lose a cupboard space, but it is really useful! Quite often you get combined washer/driers, but if it isn't then there might not be a drier. We have a shared washing line outside so I don't need a drier although I acquired a hand me down from my parents.
In Oxford my monthly bus pass was about £40 when I had one. I just walk in Glasgow mostly. Nice thing is as a single female I'm still perfectly safe living on the cheaper side of the city centre, and it's quite affordable. 30minute walk to George Sq, the centre of the centre! Personally I don't think even basic jobs where you need to pay for high rent or transport to work it should pay minimum wage - wages should reflect the cost of living in the area as well as the skill required.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »BTW, up here there is no such thing as food stamps. Very few schools have any sort of food program - a small number offer a bit of extra breakfast. There are food banks through donated foods but that's it. And food is more expensive up here by quite a lot.
So you are asserting that people in poverty in Canada do not get gov't aid? Or just that it is not in the very specific form that some of it takes in the US (i.e., food assistance, school lunches).
For example, we've established that Australia (for the most part) does not have aid in the SNAP format, but instead provides non-earmarked funds that cover a variety of needs.
How does aid to needy people work in Canada, if anyone can answer? I'm reasonably certain it's not just private aid/charities.
There is some welfare. It varies between provinces
Up here in Alberta (Canada) a family of 5 could get just under $500 for a month's worth of groceries, and just over $500 to cover other bills like shelter, electrical, and and water bills, and transportation. It is something of a joke. I spend about $300 a week on food for us, over $1200/month, and that excludes some of our meat that we get from a family member's farm. Property taxes are well over $3000 a year. Heating is ridiculous in the winter. Renting would be impossible too as a below average 2-bedroom rental is over a $1000 and may not cover all bills.
One NEEDS to rely on charity to get by up here. Our food banks and drop in centres are charities.
Surprisingly, it looks like the States gets better benefits for their needy.
Based on what?
Edit: here's a pretty good comparison that indicates for poor families there's a lot more available in Canada than in the US. https://gspp.berkeley.edu/assets/uploads/research/pdf/hoynes_stabile_submission_04272017.pdf
I started to scan that but it is 52 pages long and mind numbing. It doesn't appear to address Canada's higher cost of living... What would you like me to read in it?
The difference in the extent to which lower incomes are adjusted up appears inconsistent with the claim that the US provides more income support/aid for lower income people.
Also hard to say Canada, as a whole, has a higher cost of living than the US, as a whole. I'd be curious how my housing costs compare to yours, for example.
Average house sales in my city are between $480,000 and $501,000 over the last two months. That's average. Half cost more. I do live in an expensive city though. It tends to be more expensive in the west. The prairies are cheaper. So is the east.
Rental rates are high too. A 2-bedroom condo is around $1200 but the average has approached $1500 when times were good. It's fallen with the oil prices.
Food costs are high here too.
Examples are here:
https://www.expatistan.com/cost-of-living/calgary
In Alberta, welfare doesn't go far.
Well, if you trust the site you linked, it says cost of living is 13% cheaper in your town than mine. Food is higher for you, but everything else scores higher for me.
The bigger point is still that according to the article I linked Canada seems to provide more aid for the lowest income families (even ignoring the health care difference).0 -
Packerjohn wrote: »juliegilburd wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »Rosemary7391 wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »Living wage in the UK is simply enough to feed, shelter and transport yourself. Not about supporting a family too. So the minimum wage is an absolute joke because it doesn't actually meet minimums. I have no clue how that compares to the US right enough.
Which is the point/purpose of a minimum wage. And exactly as it should be.
The minimum doesn't include providing for anyone else.
My point is, our minimum wage is below the living wage. Although the government rebranded the minimum as the living wage without making it an actual living wage.
Whether or not the UK minimum wage is sufficient to support a single person depends on quite a few factors, primarily their location. In many parts of the country (aka not London/commuter belt) it's perfectly possible - but probably not fun unless you're into cheap hobbies. I've done it myself so it does get on my nerves slightly when people blanketly claim the minimum wage isn't enough for a minimum living cost. It isn't in London, but that's a different claim.
Just as in the US(Excepting NY, DC, Seattle, LA/SF) It's quite sufficient. and in some places more than sufficient. Places like Montgomery AL, or Columbia, SC, or Abilene TX, It's sufficient for a couple on a single income, these are obviously examples, and not an exhaustive list.
The last statement does not make sense to me. Minimum wage in the U.S. is $9.00/hr. At 40 hours a week, 52 weeks a year ($18,720 annually), that puts the earner in the 2nd to lowest income bracket for 2017, which means they would take home about $1400 if filing married/jointly. I just checked Craigslist and see an average rental for an apartment in Columbia SC could easily be $750/mo. (rents ranged from $575 up to $1200, though the higher end were clearly luxury apts.) So a budget for two people is supposed to look like this?
Rent $750
Utilities (gas/electric/water) $150+ (in my experience, this can be more)
Renter's Insurance $15
Phone (basic cell plan for 2 people) $60
Car payment $250 -OR- Cab/Bus fare for travel to/from work, stores, etc. $120
Laundry $25
That leaves $150-$270 for all the rest... groceries (for 2), life insurance, internet service, healthcare co-pays, haircuts, clothing, car insurance. Not all of those are "necessities", but realistically are a part of most people's lives. How is that quite sufficient? Even if they do get some assistance through SNAP, I just don't see it as "quite sufficient." Even the lowest earners deserve to have an extra $100 a month to put in an emergency fund, you will notice there's no room for that in this hypothetical budget.
Took me forever to type this response, so apologies if anyone covered this angle in the interim.
ETA: I guess minimum wage in South Carolina is actually $7.25, so that changes the take home to $1,131 per month. They changed minimum wage to $9 in my state a few years back and I forgot that wasn't nation-wide.
You're talking about expenses for 2 people. Why isn't the second person working to double the income?
If not married, find a roommate and cut the rent in half.
ditto. At lowest percentile wages, haven't people traditionally NOT expected to afford their own place - either renting a room as a boarder, or sharing with roommates. But it is now apparently often-times expected (and people expect to be able to easily afford perishable non-local food that wouldn't have been available to buy at all decades ago). Expecting to own a car when dirt poor is a pretty new expectation too (at least outside rural areas). It wasn't the case 20 years ago - you took the bus (currently $75/mo in my city or $37.50/mo if you qualify for a reduced fare).
And to a later post- who the hell needs to do 3 loads of laundry per week for 2 people?! from "business clothes", I'm assuming it's not 8 hours/day of hard physical labor. Clothes don't usually need to be washed after a single wear (and I'm guessing most people without their own washer and dryer and without loads of excess time realize this).
I didn't have a washer and dryer for a few years (it was a choice, not an economic necessity) and I did 2-3 loads almost every week. At the time I was working in Arizona and although I wasn't doing physical labor, I did work in a warehouse without air conditioning so I really didn't want to wear shirts over multiple days. Add running clothes, towels, and sheets and it's easy to get 2-3 loads of laundry per week, especially when the washers are regular capacity.1 -
Rosemary7391 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Rosemary7391 wrote: »juliegilburd wrote: »Rosemary7391 wrote: »juliegilburd wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »Rosemary7391 wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »Living wage in the UK is simply enough to feed, shelter and transport yourself. Not about supporting a family too. So the minimum wage is an absolute joke because it doesn't actually meet minimums. I have no clue how that compares to the US right enough.
Which is the point/purpose of a minimum wage. And exactly as it should be.
The minimum doesn't include providing for anyone else.
My point is, our minimum wage is below the living wage. Although the government rebranded the minimum as the living wage without making it an actual living wage.
Whether or not the UK minimum wage is sufficient to support a single person depends on quite a few factors, primarily their location. In many parts of the country (aka not London/commuter belt) it's perfectly possible - but probably not fun unless you're into cheap hobbies. I've done it myself so it does get on my nerves slightly when people blanketly claim the minimum wage isn't enough for a minimum living cost. It isn't in London, but that's a different claim.
Just as in the US(Excepting NY, DC, Seattle, LA/SF) It's quite sufficient. and in some places more than sufficient. Places like Montgomery AL, or Columbia, SC, or Abilene TX, It's sufficient for a couple on a single income, these are obviously examples, and not an exhaustive list.
The last statement does not make sense to me. Minimum wage in the U.S. is $9.00/hr. At 40 hours a week, 52 weeks a year ($18,720 annually), that puts the earner in the 2nd to lowest income bracket for 2017, which means they would take home about $1400 if filing married/jointly. I just checked Craigslist and see an average rental for an apartment in Columbia SC could easily be $750/mo. (rents ranged from $575 up to $1200, though the higher end were clearly luxury apts.) So a budget for two people is supposed to look like this?
Rent $750
Utilities (gas/electric/water) $150+ (in my experience, this can be more)
Renter's Insurance $15
Phone (basic cell plan for 2 people) $60
Car payment $250 -OR- Cab/Bus fare for travel to/from work, stores, etc. $120
Laundry $25
That leaves $150-$270 for all the rest... groceries (for 2), life insurance, internet service, healthcare co-pays, haircuts, clothing, car insurance. Not all of those are "necessities", but realistically are a part of most people's lives. How is that quite sufficient? Even if they do get some assistance through SNAP, I just don't see it as "quite sufficient." Even the lowest earners deserve to have an extra $100 a month to put in an emergency fund, you will notice there's no room for that in this hypothetical budget.
Took me forever to type this response, so apologies if anyone covered this angle in the interim.
I'm going to copy your list and make some adjustments - obviously I'm in the UK so serious pinch of salt required...
Rent $750
Utilities (gas/electric/water) $150+ (in my experience, this can be more) I pay £50 ~ $70 in the UK - is it really so much more expensive in the US? I have a big flat with 10ft ceilings, it isn't cheap to heat...
Renter's Insurance $15
Phone (basic cell plan for 2 people) $60 Twice my mobile bill of £15 gives me ~$40
Car payment $250 -OR- Cab/Bus fare for travel to/from work, stores, etc. $120 If you work a minimum wage job wouldn't you walk to work/stores/etc? I get the occasional local bus/cab/train, maybe £20/month ~ $25?
Laundry $25 Ehh???
Do you not have any sort of property/local amenity taxes to pay though? Or is it all income tax?
I do often find that people who have never had to live on less don't understand just how little it is possible to get things for. If you've never known any different they might well be happy with that And they might enjoy the time they have too!
As a caveat I should have said, I'm using approximate figures, but trying to not be crazy-high on my estimates.
Property taxes are paid by the owner of the property (and theoretically incorporated into the rent amounts). There are state and local sales taxes in my state. Those are just paid at the store when buying taxable items. I live in a fairly low-cost state (Nebraska) have lived in a large city and in two different towns of <200 residents, and my lowest electric bill while living in an apt. was $60, highest about $150. (In a house, bills were $150 up to $375 at times). But there's also a separate natural gas company avg. $50-75/mo. Water bills range from $30-75/mo. Sometimes water is included in rent, but not always.
Yes, you have a point about the transportation. Walking and biking are mostly free except for shoes and maintenance. So we could eliminate that completely, or drop it down to $20/mo for ongoing maintenance.
If you live in apartment you don't usually have a washer/dryer. $1.25+ per load to wash, $1.50+ per load to dry. Average of 3 loads per week for 2 people (example - linens, business clothes, casual clothes) comes to $33 per 4 weeks.
Phone - that is straight out of my budget. Husband and I have 2 flip phones (i.e. not smart phones) with a very basic plan and it costs us $55/mo. When we each had a smart phone with internet the bill was about $175/mo.
Maybe I'm wrong about how these costs play out when compared over the US.
Wow - even the smallest places I've seen here have a washer at least - not always a dryer, but at least a washer.
I guess with the US being so much bigger some things do just cost more to provide than in a more dense country.
I'm in Chicago, so not participating in the cheap living discussion, but here generally speaking rentals won't have in unit washer/driers (and I've never heard of having a washer and no drier since driers got common). Condos all have washer/driers. That was one of the big perks for me years ago when I decided to buy, ridiculous as it sounds.
That doesn't mean you have to go to the laundromat (although I had a place where I did -- in a reasonably expensive part of town, even, although this was late '90s). You will often have a place in the building (but coin operated). Renting a house or a condo or maybe some 2-flats might be different (although my laudromat place was a 2-flat). (Generally if it doesn't have a washer/drier you aren't permitted to add one and there's usually nowhere to do it.)
For the record, here a 30-day pass for public transportation is $100.
I had a washer when I moved into this flat, and it was built in 1884 so obviously someone made the space for it later on. I mean, they just sit under the kitchen counter - yeah you lose a cupboard space, but it is really useful! Quite often you get combined washer/driers, but if it isn't then there might not be a drier. We have a shared washing line outside so I don't need a drier although I acquired a hand me down from my parents.
Like I said, generally they don't let you add one here. I really wanted to in the apt I mentioned (it was the second floor of a house that had been converted into 2 apts, and pretty large) where I had to go to the laudromat, but it wasn't permitted, not code or something, I forget. One of the reasons I decided to move out and buy (I would have bought for my next place anyway, just made me do it a year or so sooner than I might have, but obviously I wasn't living on minimum wage).2 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Rosemary7391 wrote: »juliegilburd wrote: »Rosemary7391 wrote: »juliegilburd wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »Rosemary7391 wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »Living wage in the UK is simply enough to feed, shelter and transport yourself. Not about supporting a family too. So the minimum wage is an absolute joke because it doesn't actually meet minimums. I have no clue how that compares to the US right enough.
Which is the point/purpose of a minimum wage. And exactly as it should be.
The minimum doesn't include providing for anyone else.
My point is, our minimum wage is below the living wage. Although the government rebranded the minimum as the living wage without making it an actual living wage.
Whether or not the UK minimum wage is sufficient to support a single person depends on quite a few factors, primarily their location. In many parts of the country (aka not London/commuter belt) it's perfectly possible - but probably not fun unless you're into cheap hobbies. I've done it myself so it does get on my nerves slightly when people blanketly claim the minimum wage isn't enough for a minimum living cost. It isn't in London, but that's a different claim.
Just as in the US(Excepting NY, DC, Seattle, LA/SF) It's quite sufficient. and in some places more than sufficient. Places like Montgomery AL, or Columbia, SC, or Abilene TX, It's sufficient for a couple on a single income, these are obviously examples, and not an exhaustive list.
The last statement does not make sense to me. Minimum wage in the U.S. is $9.00/hr. At 40 hours a week, 52 weeks a year ($18,720 annually), that puts the earner in the 2nd to lowest income bracket for 2017, which means they would take home about $1400 if filing married/jointly. I just checked Craigslist and see an average rental for an apartment in Columbia SC could easily be $750/mo. (rents ranged from $575 up to $1200, though the higher end were clearly luxury apts.) So a budget for two people is supposed to look like this?
Rent $750
Utilities (gas/electric/water) $150+ (in my experience, this can be more)
Renter's Insurance $15
Phone (basic cell plan for 2 people) $60
Car payment $250 -OR- Cab/Bus fare for travel to/from work, stores, etc. $120
Laundry $25
That leaves $150-$270 for all the rest... groceries (for 2), life insurance, internet service, healthcare co-pays, haircuts, clothing, car insurance. Not all of those are "necessities", but realistically are a part of most people's lives. How is that quite sufficient? Even if they do get some assistance through SNAP, I just don't see it as "quite sufficient." Even the lowest earners deserve to have an extra $100 a month to put in an emergency fund, you will notice there's no room for that in this hypothetical budget.
Took me forever to type this response, so apologies if anyone covered this angle in the interim.
I'm going to copy your list and make some adjustments - obviously I'm in the UK so serious pinch of salt required...
Rent $750
Utilities (gas/electric/water) $150+ (in my experience, this can be more) I pay £50 ~ $70 in the UK - is it really so much more expensive in the US? I have a big flat with 10ft ceilings, it isn't cheap to heat...
Renter's Insurance $15
Phone (basic cell plan for 2 people) $60 Twice my mobile bill of £15 gives me ~$40
Car payment $250 -OR- Cab/Bus fare for travel to/from work, stores, etc. $120 If you work a minimum wage job wouldn't you walk to work/stores/etc? I get the occasional local bus/cab/train, maybe £20/month ~ $25?
Laundry $25 Ehh???
Do you not have any sort of property/local amenity taxes to pay though? Or is it all income tax?
I do often find that people who have never had to live on less don't understand just how little it is possible to get things for. If you've never known any different they might well be happy with that And they might enjoy the time they have too!
As a caveat I should have said, I'm using approximate figures, but trying to not be crazy-high on my estimates.
Property taxes are paid by the owner of the property (and theoretically incorporated into the rent amounts). There are state and local sales taxes in my state. Those are just paid at the store when buying taxable items. I live in a fairly low-cost state (Nebraska) have lived in a large city and in two different towns of <200 residents, and my lowest electric bill while living in an apt. was $60, highest about $150. (In a house, bills were $150 up to $375 at times). But there's also a separate natural gas company avg. $50-75/mo. Water bills range from $30-75/mo. Sometimes water is included in rent, but not always.
Yes, you have a point about the transportation. Walking and biking are mostly free except for shoes and maintenance. So we could eliminate that completely, or drop it down to $20/mo for ongoing maintenance.
If you live in apartment you don't usually have a washer/dryer. $1.25+ per load to wash, $1.50+ per load to dry. Average of 3 loads per week for 2 people (example - linens, business clothes, casual clothes) comes to $33 per 4 weeks.
Phone - that is straight out of my budget. Husband and I have 2 flip phones (i.e. not smart phones) with a very basic plan and it costs us $55/mo. When we each had a smart phone with internet the bill was about $175/mo.
Maybe I'm wrong about how these costs play out when compared over the US.
Wow - even the smallest places I've seen here have a washer at least - not always a dryer, but at least a washer.
I guess with the US being so much bigger some things do just cost more to provide than in a more dense country.
I'm in Chicago, so not participating in the cheap living discussion, but here generally speaking rentals won't have in unit washer/driers (and I've never heard of having a washer and no drier since driers got common). Condos all have washer/driers. That was one of the big perks for me years ago when I decided to buy, ridiculous as it sounds.
That doesn't mean you have to go to the laundromat (although I had a place where I did -- in a reasonably expensive part of town, even, although this was late '90s). You will often have a place in the building (but coin operated). Renting a house or a condo or maybe some 2-flats might be different (although my laudromat place was a 2-flat). (Generally if it doesn't have a washer/drier you aren't permitted to add one and there's usually nowhere to do it.)
For the record, here a 30-day pass for public transportation is $100.
It varies here - we are fairly low density urban for the most part, with the majority of rental apartments in individual houses (most frequently an upper and a lower). Most apartments in a private house have hook-ups in the basement. They may or may not already have a washer &/or dryer (in most cases, if they do, it's because a prior tenant left them behind at some point). Some apartment complexes - these usually have coin-op machines in each building. Some resident-only apartment buildings (these probably most have coin-op somewhere in the basement). And some lower end commercial-residential mix buildings (these are less likely to have hook-ups or coin-op machines, since the lower floor is a business), and some high end commercial-residential mixed buildings that I'm guessing will likely have some sort of in-apartment hook-up (and possibly the machines in place as well).0 -
juliegilburd wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »Rosemary7391 wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »Living wage in the UK is simply enough to feed, shelter and transport yourself. Not about supporting a family too. So the minimum wage is an absolute joke because it doesn't actually meet minimums. I have no clue how that compares to the US right enough.
Which is the point/purpose of a minimum wage. And exactly as it should be.
The minimum doesn't include providing for anyone else.
My point is, our minimum wage is below the living wage. Although the government rebranded the minimum as the living wage without making it an actual living wage.
Whether or not the UK minimum wage is sufficient to support a single person depends on quite a few factors, primarily their location. In many parts of the country (aka not London/commuter belt) it's perfectly possible - but probably not fun unless you're into cheap hobbies. I've done it myself so it does get on my nerves slightly when people blanketly claim the minimum wage isn't enough for a minimum living cost. It isn't in London, but that's a different claim.
Just as in the US(Excepting NY, DC, Seattle, LA/SF) It's quite sufficient. and in some places more than sufficient. Places like Montgomery AL, or Columbia, SC, or Abilene TX, It's sufficient for a couple on a single income, these are obviously examples, and not an exhaustive list.
The last statement does not make sense to me. Minimum wage in the U.S. is $9.00/hr. At 40 hours a week, 52 weeks a year ($18,720 annually), that puts the earner in the 2nd to lowest income bracket for 2017, which means they would take home about $1400 if filing married/jointly. I just checked Craigslist and see an average rental for an apartment in Columbia SC could easily be $750/mo. (rents ranged from $575 up to $1200, though the higher end were clearly luxury apts.) So a budget for two people is supposed to look like this?
Rent $750
Utilities (gas/electric/water) $150+ (in my experience, this can be more)
Renter's Insurance $15
Phone (basic cell plan for 2 people) $60
Car payment $250 -OR- Cab/Bus fare for travel to/from work, stores, etc. $120
Laundry $25
That leaves $150-$270 for all the rest... groceries (for 2), life insurance, internet service, healthcare co-pays, haircuts, clothing, car insurance. Not all of those are "necessities", but realistically are a part of most people's lives. How is that quite sufficient? Even if they do get some assistance through SNAP, I just don't see it as "quite sufficient." Even the lowest earners deserve to have an extra $100 a month to put in an emergency fund, you will notice there's no room for that in this hypothetical budget.
Took me forever to type this response, so apologies if anyone covered this angle in the interim.
ETA: I guess minimum wage in South Carolina is actually $7.25, so that changes the take home to $1,131 per month. They changed minimum wage to $9 in my state a few years back and I forgot that wasn't nation-wide.
Numbers will vary greatly on based on location, but when I was single and had an apartment my numbers were
-rent $500 (included gas/heat, trash)
-electric around $50 a month
-renter's insurance $20
-trac phone $10 a month
-no car payment, because I paid cash for my 15 year old truck (which gave me many years, even through winter driving)
-truck insurance $50
-truck gas $25 a week/$100 a month
-groceries $40-$50 a week/around $200 a month
-laundry was in apartment building and was free to use
-miscellaneous $200ish a month (eating out, entertainment etc)
-whatever was left I put into savings
Back when I was doing this minimum wage was around $8, if I'm remembering correctly. I worked full time at a grocery store and I also went to college full time. Scholarships/student loans covered tuition and books, everything else I covered with my job.
eta: I didn't have a computer or internet-if I needed these I went to the library or used the computer lab at school.
eta#2: I actually went to school like 3/4 time, but I went year round, (summer classes), so I still graduated within the normal 4 year time frame
eta#3 I just checked and back then minimum wage was $5.15, so I did make a higher wage (surprising for what I did as a job!). So that would have made things a lot tighter for me-definitely wouldn't have had miscellaneous and savings categories.1 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Rosemary7391 wrote: »juliegilburd wrote: »Rosemary7391 wrote: »juliegilburd wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »Rosemary7391 wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »Living wage in the UK is simply enough to feed, shelter and transport yourself. Not about supporting a family too. So the minimum wage is an absolute joke because it doesn't actually meet minimums. I have no clue how that compares to the US right enough.
Which is the point/purpose of a minimum wage. And exactly as it should be.
The minimum doesn't include providing for anyone else.
My point is, our minimum wage is below the living wage. Although the government rebranded the minimum as the living wage without making it an actual living wage.
Whether or not the UK minimum wage is sufficient to support a single person depends on quite a few factors, primarily their location. In many parts of the country (aka not London/commuter belt) it's perfectly possible - but probably not fun unless you're into cheap hobbies. I've done it myself so it does get on my nerves slightly when people blanketly claim the minimum wage isn't enough for a minimum living cost. It isn't in London, but that's a different claim.
Just as in the US(Excepting NY, DC, Seattle, LA/SF) It's quite sufficient. and in some places more than sufficient. Places like Montgomery AL, or Columbia, SC, or Abilene TX, It's sufficient for a couple on a single income, these are obviously examples, and not an exhaustive list.
The last statement does not make sense to me. Minimum wage in the U.S. is $9.00/hr. At 40 hours a week, 52 weeks a year ($18,720 annually), that puts the earner in the 2nd to lowest income bracket for 2017, which means they would take home about $1400 if filing married/jointly. I just checked Craigslist and see an average rental for an apartment in Columbia SC could easily be $750/mo. (rents ranged from $575 up to $1200, though the higher end were clearly luxury apts.) So a budget for two people is supposed to look like this?
Rent $750
Utilities (gas/electric/water) $150+ (in my experience, this can be more)
Renter's Insurance $15
Phone (basic cell plan for 2 people) $60
Car payment $250 -OR- Cab/Bus fare for travel to/from work, stores, etc. $120
Laundry $25
That leaves $150-$270 for all the rest... groceries (for 2), life insurance, internet service, healthcare co-pays, haircuts, clothing, car insurance. Not all of those are "necessities", but realistically are a part of most people's lives. How is that quite sufficient? Even if they do get some assistance through SNAP, I just don't see it as "quite sufficient." Even the lowest earners deserve to have an extra $100 a month to put in an emergency fund, you will notice there's no room for that in this hypothetical budget.
Took me forever to type this response, so apologies if anyone covered this angle in the interim.
I'm going to copy your list and make some adjustments - obviously I'm in the UK so serious pinch of salt required...
Rent $750
Utilities (gas/electric/water) $150+ (in my experience, this can be more) I pay £50 ~ $70 in the UK - is it really so much more expensive in the US? I have a big flat with 10ft ceilings, it isn't cheap to heat...
Renter's Insurance $15
Phone (basic cell plan for 2 people) $60 Twice my mobile bill of £15 gives me ~$40
Car payment $250 -OR- Cab/Bus fare for travel to/from work, stores, etc. $120 If you work a minimum wage job wouldn't you walk to work/stores/etc? I get the occasional local bus/cab/train, maybe £20/month ~ $25?
Laundry $25 Ehh???
Do you not have any sort of property/local amenity taxes to pay though? Or is it all income tax?
I do often find that people who have never had to live on less don't understand just how little it is possible to get things for. If you've never known any different they might well be happy with that And they might enjoy the time they have too!
As a caveat I should have said, I'm using approximate figures, but trying to not be crazy-high on my estimates.
Property taxes are paid by the owner of the property (and theoretically incorporated into the rent amounts). There are state and local sales taxes in my state. Those are just paid at the store when buying taxable items. I live in a fairly low-cost state (Nebraska) have lived in a large city and in two different towns of <200 residents, and my lowest electric bill while living in an apt. was $60, highest about $150. (In a house, bills were $150 up to $375 at times). But there's also a separate natural gas company avg. $50-75/mo. Water bills range from $30-75/mo. Sometimes water is included in rent, but not always.
Yes, you have a point about the transportation. Walking and biking are mostly free except for shoes and maintenance. So we could eliminate that completely, or drop it down to $20/mo for ongoing maintenance.
If you live in apartment you don't usually have a washer/dryer. $1.25+ per load to wash, $1.50+ per load to dry. Average of 3 loads per week for 2 people (example - linens, business clothes, casual clothes) comes to $33 per 4 weeks.
Phone - that is straight out of my budget. Husband and I have 2 flip phones (i.e. not smart phones) with a very basic plan and it costs us $55/mo. When we each had a smart phone with internet the bill was about $175/mo.
Maybe I'm wrong about how these costs play out when compared over the US.
Wow - even the smallest places I've seen here have a washer at least - not always a dryer, but at least a washer.
I guess with the US being so much bigger some things do just cost more to provide than in a more dense country.
I'm in Chicago, so not participating in the cheap living discussion, but here generally speaking rentals won't have in unit washer/driers (and I've never heard of having a washer and no drier since driers got common). Condos all have washer/driers. That was one of the big perks for me years ago when I decided to buy, ridiculous as it sounds.
That doesn't mean you have to go to the laundromat (although I had a place where I did -- in a reasonably expensive part of town, even, although this was late '90s). You will often have a place in the building (but coin operated). Renting a house or a condo or maybe some 2-flats might be different (although my laudromat place was a 2-flat). (Generally if it doesn't have a washer/drier you aren't permitted to add one and there's usually nowhere to do it.)
For the record, here a 30-day pass for public transportation is $100.
It varies here - we are fairly low density urban for the most part, with the majority of rental apartments in individual houses (most frequently an upper and a lower). Most apartments in a private house have hook-ups in the basement. They may or may not already have a washer &/or dryer (in most cases, if they do, it's because a prior tenant left them behind at some point). Some apartment complexes - these usually have coin-op machines in each building. Some resident-only apartment buildings (these probably most have coin-op somewhere in the basement). And some lower end commercial-residential mix buildings (these are less likely to have hook-ups or coin-op machines, since the lower floor is a business), and some high end commercial-residential mixed buildings that I'm guessing will likely have some sort of in-apartment hook-up (and possibly the machines in place as well).
Dryers provide an additional complication as the type of hook-up varies. Most places here have gas dryer hookup, but some have electric. (In addition to attrition, this is another reason you may often find one and not the other already in place). Also- the dryer is not truly necessary. When the pre-existing one went, I didn't bother to replace it (like I did the washer). Most of my clothes that get washed most regularly are synthetics that don't necessarily play well with the dryer heat (or fabric softener residue from another tenant). (Now the spin cycle on a washing machine, on the other hand, truly is wondrous and almost necessary.. take that from someone who often had to wash their clothes in the bathtub when I was a kid).0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Rosemary7391 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Rosemary7391 wrote: »juliegilburd wrote: »Rosemary7391 wrote: »juliegilburd wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »Rosemary7391 wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »Living wage in the UK is simply enough to feed, shelter and transport yourself. Not about supporting a family too. So the minimum wage is an absolute joke because it doesn't actually meet minimums. I have no clue how that compares to the US right enough.
Which is the point/purpose of a minimum wage. And exactly as it should be.
The minimum doesn't include providing for anyone else.
My point is, our minimum wage is below the living wage. Although the government rebranded the minimum as the living wage without making it an actual living wage.
Whether or not the UK minimum wage is sufficient to support a single person depends on quite a few factors, primarily their location. In many parts of the country (aka not London/commuter belt) it's perfectly possible - but probably not fun unless you're into cheap hobbies. I've done it myself so it does get on my nerves slightly when people blanketly claim the minimum wage isn't enough for a minimum living cost. It isn't in London, but that's a different claim.
Just as in the US(Excepting NY, DC, Seattle, LA/SF) It's quite sufficient. and in some places more than sufficient. Places like Montgomery AL, or Columbia, SC, or Abilene TX, It's sufficient for a couple on a single income, these are obviously examples, and not an exhaustive list.
The last statement does not make sense to me. Minimum wage in the U.S. is $9.00/hr. At 40 hours a week, 52 weeks a year ($18,720 annually), that puts the earner in the 2nd to lowest income bracket for 2017, which means they would take home about $1400 if filing married/jointly. I just checked Craigslist and see an average rental for an apartment in Columbia SC could easily be $750/mo. (rents ranged from $575 up to $1200, though the higher end were clearly luxury apts.) So a budget for two people is supposed to look like this?
Rent $750
Utilities (gas/electric/water) $150+ (in my experience, this can be more)
Renter's Insurance $15
Phone (basic cell plan for 2 people) $60
Car payment $250 -OR- Cab/Bus fare for travel to/from work, stores, etc. $120
Laundry $25
That leaves $150-$270 for all the rest... groceries (for 2), life insurance, internet service, healthcare co-pays, haircuts, clothing, car insurance. Not all of those are "necessities", but realistically are a part of most people's lives. How is that quite sufficient? Even if they do get some assistance through SNAP, I just don't see it as "quite sufficient." Even the lowest earners deserve to have an extra $100 a month to put in an emergency fund, you will notice there's no room for that in this hypothetical budget.
Took me forever to type this response, so apologies if anyone covered this angle in the interim.
I'm going to copy your list and make some adjustments - obviously I'm in the UK so serious pinch of salt required...
Rent $750
Utilities (gas/electric/water) $150+ (in my experience, this can be more) I pay £50 ~ $70 in the UK - is it really so much more expensive in the US? I have a big flat with 10ft ceilings, it isn't cheap to heat...
Renter's Insurance $15
Phone (basic cell plan for 2 people) $60 Twice my mobile bill of £15 gives me ~$40
Car payment $250 -OR- Cab/Bus fare for travel to/from work, stores, etc. $120 If you work a minimum wage job wouldn't you walk to work/stores/etc? I get the occasional local bus/cab/train, maybe £20/month ~ $25?
Laundry $25 Ehh???
Do you not have any sort of property/local amenity taxes to pay though? Or is it all income tax?
I do often find that people who have never had to live on less don't understand just how little it is possible to get things for. If you've never known any different they might well be happy with that And they might enjoy the time they have too!
As a caveat I should have said, I'm using approximate figures, but trying to not be crazy-high on my estimates.
Property taxes are paid by the owner of the property (and theoretically incorporated into the rent amounts). There are state and local sales taxes in my state. Those are just paid at the store when buying taxable items. I live in a fairly low-cost state (Nebraska) have lived in a large city and in two different towns of <200 residents, and my lowest electric bill while living in an apt. was $60, highest about $150. (In a house, bills were $150 up to $375 at times). But there's also a separate natural gas company avg. $50-75/mo. Water bills range from $30-75/mo. Sometimes water is included in rent, but not always.
Yes, you have a point about the transportation. Walking and biking are mostly free except for shoes and maintenance. So we could eliminate that completely, or drop it down to $20/mo for ongoing maintenance.
If you live in apartment you don't usually have a washer/dryer. $1.25+ per load to wash, $1.50+ per load to dry. Average of 3 loads per week for 2 people (example - linens, business clothes, casual clothes) comes to $33 per 4 weeks.
Phone - that is straight out of my budget. Husband and I have 2 flip phones (i.e. not smart phones) with a very basic plan and it costs us $55/mo. When we each had a smart phone with internet the bill was about $175/mo.
Maybe I'm wrong about how these costs play out when compared over the US.
Wow - even the smallest places I've seen here have a washer at least - not always a dryer, but at least a washer.
I guess with the US being so much bigger some things do just cost more to provide than in a more dense country.
I'm in Chicago, so not participating in the cheap living discussion, but here generally speaking rentals won't have in unit washer/driers (and I've never heard of having a washer and no drier since driers got common). Condos all have washer/driers. That was one of the big perks for me years ago when I decided to buy, ridiculous as it sounds.
That doesn't mean you have to go to the laundromat (although I had a place where I did -- in a reasonably expensive part of town, even, although this was late '90s). You will often have a place in the building (but coin operated). Renting a house or a condo or maybe some 2-flats might be different (although my laudromat place was a 2-flat). (Generally if it doesn't have a washer/drier you aren't permitted to add one and there's usually nowhere to do it.)
For the record, here a 30-day pass for public transportation is $100.
I had a washer when I moved into this flat, and it was built in 1884 so obviously someone made the space for it later on. I mean, they just sit under the kitchen counter - yeah you lose a cupboard space, but it is really useful! Quite often you get combined washer/driers, but if it isn't then there might not be a drier. We have a shared washing line outside so I don't need a drier although I acquired a hand me down from my parents.
Like I said, generally they don't let you add one here. I really wanted to in the apt I mentioned (it was the second floor of a house that had been converted into 2 apts, and pretty large) where I had to go to the laudromat, but it wasn't permitted, not code or something, I forget. One of the reasons I decided to move out and buy (I would have bought for my next place anyway, just made me do it a year or so sooner than I might have, but obviously I wasn't living on minimum wage).
My current place does have the hook-ups in the upper flat as well as the basement (not allowed to use the upper. they have them because the landlords had lived there once upon a time before moving to the suburbs). Most landlords (rightly so) won't trust tenants not to cause water damage due to any leaks/clogged filters/etc (especially in a lower end apartment where the condition of the machine and knowledge of the person hooking it up can be potentially dubious).0 -
VintageFeline wrote: »Rosemary7391 wrote: »juliegilburd wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »Rosemary7391 wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »Living wage in the UK is simply enough to feed, shelter and transport yourself. Not about supporting a family too. So the minimum wage is an absolute joke because it doesn't actually meet minimums. I have no clue how that compares to the US right enough.
Which is the point/purpose of a minimum wage. And exactly as it should be.
The minimum doesn't include providing for anyone else.
My point is, our minimum wage is below the living wage. Although the government rebranded the minimum as the living wage without making it an actual living wage.
Whether or not the UK minimum wage is sufficient to support a single person depends on quite a few factors, primarily their location. In many parts of the country (aka not London/commuter belt) it's perfectly possible - but probably not fun unless you're into cheap hobbies. I've done it myself so it does get on my nerves slightly when people blanketly claim the minimum wage isn't enough for a minimum living cost. It isn't in London, but that's a different claim.
Just as in the US(Excepting NY, DC, Seattle, LA/SF) It's quite sufficient. and in some places more than sufficient. Places like Montgomery AL, or Columbia, SC, or Abilene TX, It's sufficient for a couple on a single income, these are obviously examples, and not an exhaustive list.
The last statement does not make sense to me. Minimum wage in the U.S. is $9.00/hr. At 40 hours a week, 52 weeks a year ($18,720 annually), that puts the earner in the 2nd to lowest income bracket for 2017, which means they would take home about $1400 if filing married/jointly. I just checked Craigslist and see an average rental for an apartment in Columbia SC could easily be $750/mo. (rents ranged from $575 up to $1200, though the higher end were clearly luxury apts.) So a budget for two people is supposed to look like this?
Rent $750
Utilities (gas/electric/water) $150+ (in my experience, this can be more)
Renter's Insurance $15
Phone (basic cell plan for 2 people) $60
Car payment $250 -OR- Cab/Bus fare for travel to/from work, stores, etc. $120
Laundry $25
That leaves $150-$270 for all the rest... groceries (for 2), life insurance, internet service, healthcare co-pays, haircuts, clothing, car insurance. Not all of those are "necessities", but realistically are a part of most people's lives. How is that quite sufficient? Even if they do get some assistance through SNAP, I just don't see it as "quite sufficient." Even the lowest earners deserve to have an extra $100 a month to put in an emergency fund, you will notice there's no room for that in this hypothetical budget.
Took me forever to type this response, so apologies if anyone covered this angle in the interim.
I'm going to copy your list and make some adjustments - obviously I'm in the UK so serious pinch of salt required...
Rent $750
Utilities (gas/electric/water) $150+ (in my experience, this can be more) I pay £50 ~ $70 in the UK - is it really so much more expensive in the US? I have a big flat with 10ft ceilings, it isn't cheap to heat...
Renter's Insurance $15
Phone (basic cell plan for 2 people) $60 Twice my mobile bill of £15 gives me ~$40
Car payment $250 -OR- Cab/Bus fare for travel to/from work, stores, etc. $120 If you work a minimum wage job wouldn't you walk to work/stores/etc? I get the occasional local bus/cab/train, maybe £20/month ~ $25?
Laundry $25 Ehh???
Do you not have any sort of property/local amenity taxes to pay though? Or is it all income tax?
I do often find that people who have never had to live on less don't understand just how little it is possible to get things for. If you've never known any different they might well be happy with that And they might enjoy the time they have too!
I'm 35, I started working when I was 15. I have had quite a few jobs and only two of them was it feasible to walk to. Moving closer to the jobs was unaffordable.
My utilities are £75pm (about 50 for g&e, I am home a lot so mine are probably a bit higher than most in identical circumstances, 25 for water) but if you live in Scotland water is included in your council tax. But there's something to add on that isn't on the US budget, the amount of which of course varies. Mine would be £120pm. I have friends in the US and indeed, their utilities are eye watering.
I'm not including rent with mine because I do live in London and while my rent is comparatively cheap it's not representative of much of the UK, though the disparity isn't what it once was.
Many people in apartment buildings in the US don't have laundry facilities in their own home but a shared facility in the building that is coin operated. Or they literally go to the laundrette/laundromat.
It really varies. We live in a 3,000 sq ft house, in the Midwest and our electric bill fluctuates between $124-$150 a month. Gas bill: it's $20-$30 during the summer months. This past winter we moved here and we used a pellet stove instead of a furnace. We spent around $150 a month on pellets and our gas bill, separate from that, was around $75 a month. We have a well so no water bill. High speed internet is $39.99 a month. Trash, including a separate container for recycling, is $22.50 a month.
Now our old house, 10 minutes away and smaller,-our electric bill was over $200 a month. This is because we had several aquariums-including a 110 gallon Discus tank, which had a temperature in the high 80s. We also had central air and ran that a lot in the summer, (new house has windows lol). We also had city water and that was $80 a month. Summer gas bill was similar, but our winter gas bill would get in the $250-$300 range. Oh, and our old house was in a city that had its own property tax thing, (still not sure how that worked), and we had a $600 a year tax bill. 10 minutes away and a different town-no tax bill. We pretty much rolled our water and tax payments into our new, higher mortgage so it's evened out more or less.1 -
janejellyroll wrote: »Packerjohn wrote: »juliegilburd wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »Rosemary7391 wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »Living wage in the UK is simply enough to feed, shelter and transport yourself. Not about supporting a family too. So the minimum wage is an absolute joke because it doesn't actually meet minimums. I have no clue how that compares to the US right enough.
Which is the point/purpose of a minimum wage. And exactly as it should be.
The minimum doesn't include providing for anyone else.
My point is, our minimum wage is below the living wage. Although the government rebranded the minimum as the living wage without making it an actual living wage.
Whether or not the UK minimum wage is sufficient to support a single person depends on quite a few factors, primarily their location. In many parts of the country (aka not London/commuter belt) it's perfectly possible - but probably not fun unless you're into cheap hobbies. I've done it myself so it does get on my nerves slightly when people blanketly claim the minimum wage isn't enough for a minimum living cost. It isn't in London, but that's a different claim.
Just as in the US(Excepting NY, DC, Seattle, LA/SF) It's quite sufficient. and in some places more than sufficient. Places like Montgomery AL, or Columbia, SC, or Abilene TX, It's sufficient for a couple on a single income, these are obviously examples, and not an exhaustive list.
The last statement does not make sense to me. Minimum wage in the U.S. is $9.00/hr. At 40 hours a week, 52 weeks a year ($18,720 annually), that puts the earner in the 2nd to lowest income bracket for 2017, which means they would take home about $1400 if filing married/jointly. I just checked Craigslist and see an average rental for an apartment in Columbia SC could easily be $750/mo. (rents ranged from $575 up to $1200, though the higher end were clearly luxury apts.) So a budget for two people is supposed to look like this?
Rent $750
Utilities (gas/electric/water) $150+ (in my experience, this can be more)
Renter's Insurance $15
Phone (basic cell plan for 2 people) $60
Car payment $250 -OR- Cab/Bus fare for travel to/from work, stores, etc. $120
Laundry $25
That leaves $150-$270 for all the rest... groceries (for 2), life insurance, internet service, healthcare co-pays, haircuts, clothing, car insurance. Not all of those are "necessities", but realistically are a part of most people's lives. How is that quite sufficient? Even if they do get some assistance through SNAP, I just don't see it as "quite sufficient." Even the lowest earners deserve to have an extra $100 a month to put in an emergency fund, you will notice there's no room for that in this hypothetical budget.
Took me forever to type this response, so apologies if anyone covered this angle in the interim.
ETA: I guess minimum wage in South Carolina is actually $7.25, so that changes the take home to $1,131 per month. They changed minimum wage to $9 in my state a few years back and I forgot that wasn't nation-wide.
You're talking about expenses for 2 people. Why isn't the second person working to double the income?
If not married, find a roommate and cut the rent in half.
ditto. At lowest percentile wages, haven't people traditionally NOT expected to afford their own place - either renting a room as a boarder, or sharing with roommates. But it is now apparently often-times expected (and people expect to be able to easily afford perishable non-local food that wouldn't have been available to buy at all decades ago). Expecting to own a car when dirt poor is a pretty new expectation too (at least outside rural areas). It wasn't the case 20 years ago - you took the bus (currently $75/mo in my city or $37.50/mo if you qualify for a reduced fare).
And to a later post- who the hell needs to do 3 loads of laundry per week for 2 people?! from "business clothes", I'm assuming it's not 8 hours/day of hard physical labor. Clothes don't usually need to be washed after a single wear (and I'm guessing most people without their own washer and dryer and without loads of excess time realize this).
I didn't have a washer and dryer for a few years (it was a choice, not an economic necessity) and I did 2-3 loads almost every week. At the time I was working in Arizona and although I wasn't doing physical labor, I did work in a warehouse without air conditioning so I really didn't want to wear shirts over multiple days. Add running clothes, towels, and sheets and it's easy to get 2-3 loads of laundry per week, especially when the washers are regular capacity.
If we're taking into account bedlinen and towels it's not that hard to do 2 loads a week. And then there's splitting colours.2 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Rosemary7391 wrote: »juliegilburd wrote: »Rosemary7391 wrote: »juliegilburd wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »Rosemary7391 wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »Living wage in the UK is simply enough to feed, shelter and transport yourself. Not about supporting a family too. So the minimum wage is an absolute joke because it doesn't actually meet minimums. I have no clue how that compares to the US right enough.
Which is the point/purpose of a minimum wage. And exactly as it should be.
The minimum doesn't include providing for anyone else.
My point is, our minimum wage is below the living wage. Although the government rebranded the minimum as the living wage without making it an actual living wage.
Whether or not the UK minimum wage is sufficient to support a single person depends on quite a few factors, primarily their location. In many parts of the country (aka not London/commuter belt) it's perfectly possible - but probably not fun unless you're into cheap hobbies. I've done it myself so it does get on my nerves slightly when people blanketly claim the minimum wage isn't enough for a minimum living cost. It isn't in London, but that's a different claim.
Just as in the US(Excepting NY, DC, Seattle, LA/SF) It's quite sufficient. and in some places more than sufficient. Places like Montgomery AL, or Columbia, SC, or Abilene TX, It's sufficient for a couple on a single income, these are obviously examples, and not an exhaustive list.
The last statement does not make sense to me. Minimum wage in the U.S. is $9.00/hr. At 40 hours a week, 52 weeks a year ($18,720 annually), that puts the earner in the 2nd to lowest income bracket for 2017, which means they would take home about $1400 if filing married/jointly. I just checked Craigslist and see an average rental for an apartment in Columbia SC could easily be $750/mo. (rents ranged from $575 up to $1200, though the higher end were clearly luxury apts.) So a budget for two people is supposed to look like this?
Rent $750
Utilities (gas/electric/water) $150+ (in my experience, this can be more)
Renter's Insurance $15
Phone (basic cell plan for 2 people) $60
Car payment $250 -OR- Cab/Bus fare for travel to/from work, stores, etc. $120
Laundry $25
That leaves $150-$270 for all the rest... groceries (for 2), life insurance, internet service, healthcare co-pays, haircuts, clothing, car insurance. Not all of those are "necessities", but realistically are a part of most people's lives. How is that quite sufficient? Even if they do get some assistance through SNAP, I just don't see it as "quite sufficient." Even the lowest earners deserve to have an extra $100 a month to put in an emergency fund, you will notice there's no room for that in this hypothetical budget.
Took me forever to type this response, so apologies if anyone covered this angle in the interim.
I'm going to copy your list and make some adjustments - obviously I'm in the UK so serious pinch of salt required...
Rent $750
Utilities (gas/electric/water) $150+ (in my experience, this can be more) I pay £50 ~ $70 in the UK - is it really so much more expensive in the US? I have a big flat with 10ft ceilings, it isn't cheap to heat...
Renter's Insurance $15
Phone (basic cell plan for 2 people) $60 Twice my mobile bill of £15 gives me ~$40
Car payment $250 -OR- Cab/Bus fare for travel to/from work, stores, etc. $120 If you work a minimum wage job wouldn't you walk to work/stores/etc? I get the occasional local bus/cab/train, maybe £20/month ~ $25?
Laundry $25 Ehh???
Do you not have any sort of property/local amenity taxes to pay though? Or is it all income tax?
I do often find that people who have never had to live on less don't understand just how little it is possible to get things for. If you've never known any different they might well be happy with that And they might enjoy the time they have too!
As a caveat I should have said, I'm using approximate figures, but trying to not be crazy-high on my estimates.
Property taxes are paid by the owner of the property (and theoretically incorporated into the rent amounts). There are state and local sales taxes in my state. Those are just paid at the store when buying taxable items. I live in a fairly low-cost state (Nebraska) have lived in a large city and in two different towns of <200 residents, and my lowest electric bill while living in an apt. was $60, highest about $150. (In a house, bills were $150 up to $375 at times). But there's also a separate natural gas company avg. $50-75/mo. Water bills range from $30-75/mo. Sometimes water is included in rent, but not always.
Yes, you have a point about the transportation. Walking and biking are mostly free except for shoes and maintenance. So we could eliminate that completely, or drop it down to $20/mo for ongoing maintenance.
If you live in apartment you don't usually have a washer/dryer. $1.25+ per load to wash, $1.50+ per load to dry. Average of 3 loads per week for 2 people (example - linens, business clothes, casual clothes) comes to $33 per 4 weeks.
Phone - that is straight out of my budget. Husband and I have 2 flip phones (i.e. not smart phones) with a very basic plan and it costs us $55/mo. When we each had a smart phone with internet the bill was about $175/mo.
Maybe I'm wrong about how these costs play out when compared over the US.
Wow - even the smallest places I've seen here have a washer at least - not always a dryer, but at least a washer.
I guess with the US being so much bigger some things do just cost more to provide than in a more dense country.
I'm in Chicago, so not participating in the cheap living discussion, but here generally speaking rentals won't have in unit washer/driers (and I've never heard of having a washer and no drier since driers got common). Condos all have washer/driers. That was one of the big perks for me years ago when I decided to buy, ridiculous as it sounds.
That doesn't mean you have to go to the laundromat (although I had a place where I did -- in a reasonably expensive part of town, even, although this was late '90s). You will often have a place in the building (but coin operated). Renting a house or a condo or maybe some 2-flats might be different (although my laudromat place was a 2-flat). (Generally if it doesn't have a washer/drier you aren't permitted to add one and there's usually nowhere to do it.)
For the record, here a 30-day pass for public transportation is $100.
It varies here - we are fairly low density urban for the most part, with the majority of rental apartments in individual houses (most frequently an upper and a lower). Most apartments in a private house have hook-ups in the basement. They may or may not already have a washer &/or dryer (in most cases, if they do, it's because a prior tenant left them behind at some point). Some apartment complexes - these usually have coin-op machines in each building. Some resident-only apartment buildings (these probably most have coin-op somewhere in the basement). And some lower end commercial-residential mix buildings (these are less likely to have hook-ups or coin-op machines, since the lower floor is a business), and some high end commercial-residential mixed buildings that I'm guessing will likely have some sort of in-apartment hook-up (and possibly the machines in place as well).
Dryers provide an additional complication as the type of hook-up varies. Most places here have gas dryer hookup, but some have electric. (In addition to attrition, this is another reason you may often find one and not the other already in place). Also- the dryer is not truly necessary. When the pre-existing one went, I didn't bother to replace it (like I did the washer). Most of my clothes that get washed most regularly are synthetics that don't necessarily play well with the dryer heat (or fabric softener residue from another tenant). (Now the spin cycle on a washing machine, on the other hand, truly is wondrous and almost necessary.. take that from someone who often had to wash their clothes in the bathtub when I was a kid).
I went two years without a dryer, with a family of 5. I just hung things on 3 clothes racks and then strung over chairs and such. And yeah, totally get you on hand washing- we frequently did that when I was a kid as well. I love my washing machine now 2 -
Driers aren't really a common necessity in the UK, most people, myself included, will just hang on the line or on airers in the house. In the summer, even those who do have one, are more likely to hang outside. We're surprisingly environmentally friendly in this instance!2
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VintageFeline wrote: »Driers aren't really a common necessity in the UK, most people, myself included, will just hang on the line or on airers in the house. In the summer, even those who do have one, are more likely to hang outside. We're surprisingly environmentally friendly in this instance!
I actually enjoyed hanging clothes-it was a relaxing process It did get annoying to have clothes all over the place though lol. 0 -
OliveGirl128 wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »Driers aren't really a common necessity in the UK, most people, myself included, will just hang on the line or on airers in the house. In the summer, even those who do have one, are more likely to hang outside. We're surprisingly environmentally friendly in this instance!
I actually enjoyed hanging clothes-it was a relaxing process It did get annoying to have clothes all over the place though lol.
Yeah, I don't love that I have to hang it all over the place (no outdoor space at all here), in a one bed flat I could live without it but it's also normal for me.1 -
The landlord pays the water in almost every apartment here. Electric will vary a lot on whether someone is using an air conditioner. Gas (heat) will vary a lot per person (some places have way better insulation than others and the insulation in a lot of older homes has compressed/degraded; some people crank the heat up a lot higher than others). (Heat, including for water, is almost universally gas rather than electric here. Heat in most places is either forced air or radiators, although I have lived in a few apartments that relied on a space heater in the kitchen for heat.).
My bills are usually:
heat ~$30-40 summer, ~$80-90 winter (62°F setpoint). (note: most are estimated with the rare recorded meter reading..so the seasonal breakdown may vary from this).
electric ~$40-70 (no A/C)
Cell phone $32.62
Internet $45 (I sometimes consider canceling, but I do like watching TV a few times a week).1 -
We have a laundry room at our complex; it's $1.00 to wash and $1.00 to dry (per load). I have a small apartment, so the gas and electric aren't usually that high (heat is a bit more in winter and electric goes up some in the summer -I have central AC - but management company pays our sewer, trash, and water costs.
I didn't do bad at the grocery store today; picked up a lot of healthy stuff on sale and used coupons for some to boot. My bill came to about $135 for almost a full cart as result, including bar soap, bathroom tissue, and paper towels.0 -
quiksylver296 wrote: »
Obesity IS because people are overeating. Diabetes IS because people are overeating.
I honestly don't know enough about cancer, but I do know "all things in moderation" and most cancer studies (rats and aspertame comes to mind) is because they fed the subjects 100s of times the normal amount.
If a food is legitimately laced with poison, then it will put you in the hospital. Immediately. Clickbait "science" articles are just fear-mongering woo.
I know your post was in response to someone else's (which I'm not going to address because that's a whole other can of worms, haha) but I just wanted to clarify something: obesity can be caused by medical conditions and medications, too, not just eating habits. However, it's up to each individual to find a way to compensate for that (and many don't).1 -
(Sorry for double post!)
In regards to the conversations about cheap/expensive living;
I have to live in a high cost-of-living city because I need access to the hospital and specialist doctors available there. I don't get food stamps, but I get a cheque every month for about a grand intended to cover all my costs. That seems like a lot to some people, but when I break it down to a monthly cost:
Rent: 375 w/ utilities (EXTREMELY cheap in this city; average is about 600 PLUS utilities)
Internet: 80 (internet plans are expensive here but very high speed)
Phone: [80 covered]
Doctors: Between 350 [PLUS 300 that's covered by government]
Medication: [400 covered by government]
Buss Pass: 80 (need it to get anywhere in the city)
Total: 885$
Remaining for Food: 115$
Less than 4$/day meaning typically only one meal a day.
Welcome to living below the poverty line.
In regards to the original topic of the thread:
I don't think America could get themselves together enough to implement restrictions that people won't complain about. No offense to that country, but there are a lot of people on food stamps who just want to eat/drink junk; sometimes because it's cheaper than eating healthy, which a lot of the government doesn't seem to understand. It's people with lots of money making decisions about people and situations they know very little about; flawed system.
3 -
deannalfisher wrote: »If anyone is interested in a book about a similar topic - $2.00 a Day: Living on Almost Nothing in America - http://amzn.to/2w7rYQc
I read it a few months ago - it covers info about some of the different welfare reforms over the years and how they have positively/negatively impacted those who live below the poverty level in the us
personally - not a fan of regulating what can be bought with SNAP - however, I would be in favor of places (stores, foodbanks) maybe offering a free class in how to buy/prepare food that is cheap and easy - for many people I think that is something they struggle with - especially depending on living situation (maybe no stove, or only a hot plate etc).
We do programs like that for our college students when they are going to be living off-campus and preparing their own food the next year. "How to Stock a Kitchen" (food and pots/pans/utensils), "How to Turn Recipes into Groceries" is another popular one. So is "Couponing and Bargain Shopping"--we tell them which days of the week they can shop which grocery stores for the best deals.
We also provide info on the campus food bank and local ones. A lot of students face food insecurity, about half are from low-income households.2
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