Weight loss/muscle build & Low Carb High protein diet

jonathanclough wrote: »

mmapags wrote: »

jonathanclough wrote: »

mmapags wrote: »

OP, you are at a "normal" weight BMI so I can't understand why you'd want to be in calorie deficit and lose more. Your protein intake is higher than necessary but that could be your preference. You don't "need" more than .8 to 1 gram per lb of lean body mass.
I'm guessing your aren't happy with how your body looks and you see too much fat. You may be "skinny fat". Eg. too high a body fat % for your weight. Hard to say without pics. If I were you, I wouldn't be looking to drop weight. I would be getting adequate protein and lifting weights on a full body compound movement program. I'd eat at maintenance. This is called a recomp. You will slowly lose body fat and gain lean muscle mass and reshape your body. Low carb not necessary. Just hit protein, adequate fats, about .35 to .45 grams per body weight and the rest carbs or whatever you prefer.

You sir, hit the nail on the head. As of yesterday morning I was at 19.1% body fat

Which honestly, is a fine body fat. You don't say how old you are but that would be decent even in your 20s. So, then it's a body shape issue. Eat at maintenance and lift weights. It's going to take a bit so you will need some patience as you slowly drop body fat and gain muscle mass. You will see some short term improvements in muscle mass and shape but that will level off and change more slowly. You will see strength gains the whole while if on a progressive program.

I think I said my age? Anyways, I'm 32

jonathanclough wrote: »

mmapags wrote: »

OP, you are at a "normal" weight BMI so I can't understand why you'd want to be in calorie deficit and lose more. Your protein intake is higher than necessary but that could be your preference. You don't "need" more than .8 to 1 gram per lb of lean body mass.
I'm guessing your aren't happy with how your body looks and you see too much fat. You may be "skinny fat". Eg. too high a body fat % for your weight. Hard to say without pics. If I were you, I wouldn't be looking to drop weight. I would be getting adequate protein and lifting weights on a full body compound movement program. I'd eat at maintenance. This is called a recomp. You will slowly lose body fat and gain lean muscle mass and reshape your body. Low carb not necessary. Just hit protein, adequate fats, about .35 to .45 grams per body weight and the rest carbs or whatever you prefer.

You sir, hit the nail on the head. As of yesterday morning I was at 19.1% body fat

Nony_Mouse wrote: »

jonathanclough wrote: »

Nony_Mouse wrote: »

jonathanclough wrote: »

CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »

jonathanclough wrote: »

jemhh wrote: »

jonathanclough wrote: »

I'm 32, 5'6", 152 when started 1 week ago (148.4) as of this morning...

jonathanclough wrote: »

...Right now I'm trying to shred off some of the 30 lbs I put on in the last year since I quit smoking. And that 30 lbs was mostly fat. Which sounds crazy considering I was only 160 tops to begin with

I'm not following the math here. If you were 160 and added 30 lbs, how were you not around 190 last week when you started working on losing weight?

I was 160 at the highest mark after gaining the 30 lbs. Sorry for not being too clear

so you are wanting to be 130 lbs? thats probably underweight for a male at your height. for my height(half inch taller) my weight should be 118-152 I think it says. I know at 118 I look sickly. But Im female too so that makes a little difference.

No, I dont want to go down to 130 again. That's too little. I want to get down to 140 before I started putting on muscle though

Okay, so that's what, 8 lbs? Definitely go for 0.5 lb per week weight loss, get your 0.8-1g of protein per lb, and your 0.35-0.45g of fat, eat all your calories (including at least half your exercise cals), stop worrying about carbs, lift heavy things (using a progressive programme, don't just wing it), eat mostly whole, nutritious foods, but allow some room for treats (with your cal allowance, you have plenty of room).

Is this all making sense now?

I started a progressive routine already. Today is day 2 of week 2. It all made sense except the carbs from the beginning

Okay, good. You all good with the carbs now?

midwesterner85 wrote: »

misnomer1 wrote: »

Your protein intake is unnecessarily high. 120-150gms should be enough.

It depends. If he is staying low carb AND wants to build mucle, he needs more protein.

Here is some science (and math to go with it):

Skeletal muscles can either burn glucose or oxidize fat. Some of us are more efficient at burning fat in skeletal muscles than glucose, and that adaptation happens after long periods of time on a low carb diet.

Our brains and central nervous system use glucose (or ketones) to function and cannot oxidize fat. Fortunately, the brain of a 600 lb. person is about the same size as the brain of an 80 lb. person; making the math easy because we all need about 120g-130g of glucose daily for brain function.

Net carbs convert to glucose at about 100%; while protein (regardless of source - more on that later) converts to glucose at about 58% efficiency (more on that below).

Consider someone at rest on a standard American diet... let's say 300g of carbs daily. That person has enough glucose to power their brain and then some for other body functions and possibly add to glycogen or fat stores, depending on other factors.

Contrarily, if someone only consumes 20g of fat, they are going to produce ketones. Ketones reduce the amount of glucose needed by our brain at a rate of about 10% per 1 mmol/l of blood ketones. If someone is consistently running at 3 mmol/l of blood ketones and normally would require 130g of glucose for his brain, then he really only needs 91g: 130g X ( 1- 30%) = 91g

This example person is consuming 20g of carbs (which becomes 20g of glucose), but even at rest will require 91g. So will that person die if they don't eat 71g more carbs? Will their brain stop functioning due to lack of energy? The answer is No. There are other ways to obtain glucose. It can be recalled from glycogen storage, but someone who has been on a low carb diet for a long time has depleted their glycogen stores.

Alternatively, protein can be converted to glucose... inefficiently (with only 58% actually becoming glucose). That protein can come from food sources or it can come from our own body (i.e. we can break down our own muscles to create glucose). Obviously a person who wants to lose fat and build muscle wants to use dietary protein rather than body protein to fill the glucose gap. In the example provided, such a person needs 122g of dietary protein to fill the glucose gap: 71g / 58% = 122g

The example person at rest would need to consume 122g of protein to fulfill glucose needs... but unless they consume MORE than 122g of protein, they won't have any extra dietary protein (amino acids) for use to build new body protein (aka muscles).

Every individual will have different math involved, but the basic idea is that in order to lose fat and build muscle on a low carb, high protein diet; you want to:
1. Keep ketone levels elevated in order to reduce glucose used by brain / central nervous system.
2. Reduce the amount of glucose used for other activities (make your skeletal muscles very efficient at fat oxidation).
3. Consume enough protein to have dietary protein remaining even after it is converted to glucose.
4. Use remaining dietary protein to build body protein (muscles).

The idea that it isn't possible to build muscle while in a caloric deficit is rooted in the idea that if you give yourself a lot of all of the macros, your body will sort it out. It will, but often that also leads to fat gain (and bulk/cut cycles). If you can't do the math for your own situation, then it may be the best way... just expect to have to go through a cut cycle later. It sounds to me like you are interested in tailoring macronutrients so as not to deal with the bulk/cut cycles. For that, I say: Good for you! It isn't as easy or as fast, but IMHO it is better to avoid the hassles.

mmapags wrote: »

midwesterner85 wrote: »

misnomer1 wrote: »

Your protein intake is unnecessarily high. 120-150gms should be enough.

It depends. If he is staying low carb AND wants to build mucle, he needs more protein.

Here is some science (and math to go with it):

Skeletal muscles can either burn glucose or oxidize fat. Some of us are more efficient at burning fat in skeletal muscles than glucose, and that adaptation happens after long periods of time on a low carb diet.

Our brains and central nervous system use glucose (or ketones) to function and cannot oxidize fat. Fortunately, the brain of a 600 lb. person is about the same size as the brain of an 80 lb. person; making the math easy because we all need about 120g-130g of glucose daily for brain function.

Net carbs convert to glucose at about 100%; while protein (regardless of source - more on that later) converts to glucose at about 58% efficiency (more on that below).

Consider someone at rest on a standard American diet... let's say 300g of carbs daily. That person has enough glucose to power their brain and then some for other body functions and possibly add to glycogen or fat stores, depending on other factors.

Contrarily, if someone only consumes 20g of fat, they are going to produce ketones. Ketones reduce the amount of glucose needed by our brain at a rate of about 10% per 1 mmol/l of blood ketones. If someone is consistently running at 3 mmol/l of blood ketones and normally would require 130g of glucose for his brain, then he really only needs 91g: 130g X ( 1- 30%) = 91g

This example person is consuming 20g of carbs (which becomes 20g of glucose), but even at rest will require 91g. So will that person die if they don't eat 71g more carbs? Will their brain stop functioning due to lack of energy? The answer is No. There are other ways to obtain glucose. It can be recalled from glycogen storage, but someone who has been on a low carb diet for a long time has depleted their glycogen stores.

Alternatively, protein can be converted to glucose... inefficiently (with only 58% actually becoming glucose). That protein can come from food sources or it can come from our own body (i.e. we can break down our own muscles to create glucose). Obviously a person who wants to lose fat and build muscle wants to use dietary protein rather than body protein to fill the glucose gap. In the example provided, such a person needs 122g of dietary protein to fill the glucose gap: 71g / 58% = 122g

The example person at rest would need to consume 122g of protein to fulfill glucose needs... but unless they consume MORE than 122g of protein, they won't have any extra dietary protein (amino acids) for use to build new body protein (aka muscles).

Every individual will have different math involved, but the basic idea is that in order to lose fat and build muscle on a low carb, high protein diet; you want to:
1. Keep ketone levels elevated in order to reduce glucose used by brain / central nervous system.
2. Reduce the amount of glucose used for other activities (make your skeletal muscles very efficient at fat oxidation).
3. Consume enough protein to have dietary protein remaining even after it is converted to glucose.
4. Use remaining dietary protein to build body protein (muscles).

The idea that it isn't possible to build muscle while in a caloric deficit is rooted in the idea that if you give yourself a lot of all of the macros, your body will sort it out. It will, but often that also leads to fat gain (and bulk/cut cycles). If you can't do the math for your own situation, then it may be the best way... just expect to have to go through a cut cycle later. It sounds to me like you are interested in tailoring macronutrients so as not to deal with the bulk/cut cycles. For that, I say: Good for you! It isn't as easy or as fast, but IMHO it is better to avoid the hassles.

Why would someone go through all this nonsense when all one has to do is eat an adequate amount of protein fats and carbs. It's not that hard to figure out and. Also, in regard to your claim for gaining muscle while losing fat on low carb, please provide peer reviewed studies that support this when calories and protein are held constant.

mmapags wrote: »

midwesterner85 wrote: »

mmapags wrote: »

midwesterner85 wrote: »

misnomer1 wrote: »

Your protein intake is unnecessarily high. 120-150gms should be enough.

It depends. If he is staying low carb AND wants to build mucle, he needs more protein.

Here is some science (and math to go with it):

Skeletal muscles can either burn glucose or oxidize fat. Some of us are more efficient at burning fat in skeletal muscles than glucose, and that adaptation happens after long periods of time on a low carb diet.

Our brains and central nervous system use glucose (or ketones) to function and cannot oxidize fat. Fortunately, the brain of a 600 lb. person is about the same size as the brain of an 80 lb. person; making the math easy because we all need about 120g-130g of glucose daily for brain function.

Net carbs convert to glucose at about 100%; while protein (regardless of source - more on that later) converts to glucose at about 58% efficiency (more on that below).

Consider someone at rest on a standard American diet... let's say 300g of carbs daily. That person has enough glucose to power their brain and then some for other body functions and possibly add to glycogen or fat stores, depending on other factors.

Contrarily, if someone only consumes 20g of fat, they are going to produce ketones. Ketones reduce the amount of glucose needed by our brain at a rate of about 10% per 1 mmol/l of blood ketones. If someone is consistently running at 3 mmol/l of blood ketones and normally would require 130g of glucose for his brain, then he really only needs 91g: 130g X ( 1- 30%) = 91g

This example person is consuming 20g of carbs (which becomes 20g of glucose), but even at rest will require 91g. So will that person die if they don't eat 71g more carbs? Will their brain stop functioning due to lack of energy? The answer is No. There are other ways to obtain glucose. It can be recalled from glycogen storage, but someone who has been on a low carb diet for a long time has depleted their glycogen stores.

Alternatively, protein can be converted to glucose... inefficiently (with only 58% actually becoming glucose). That protein can come from food sources or it can come from our own body (i.e. we can break down our own muscles to create glucose). Obviously a person who wants to lose fat and build muscle wants to use dietary protein rather than body protein to fill the glucose gap. In the example provided, such a person needs 122g of dietary protein to fill the glucose gap: 71g / 58% = 122g

The example person at rest would need to consume 122g of protein to fulfill glucose needs... but unless they consume MORE than 122g of protein, they won't have any extra dietary protein (amino acids) for use to build new body protein (aka muscles).

Every individual will have different math involved, but the basic idea is that in order to lose fat and build muscle on a low carb, high protein diet; you want to:
1. Keep ketone levels elevated in order to reduce glucose used by brain / central nervous system.
2. Reduce the amount of glucose used for other activities (make your skeletal muscles very efficient at fat oxidation).
3. Consume enough protein to have dietary protein remaining even after it is converted to glucose.
4. Use remaining dietary protein to build body protein (muscles).

The idea that it isn't possible to build muscle while in a caloric deficit is rooted in the idea that if you give yourself a lot of all of the macros, your body will sort it out. It will, but often that also leads to fat gain (and bulk/cut cycles). If you can't do the math for your own situation, then it may be the best way... just expect to have to go through a cut cycle later. It sounds to me like you are interested in tailoring macronutrients so as not to deal with the bulk/cut cycles. For that, I say: Good for you! It isn't as easy or as fast, but IMHO it is better to avoid the hassles.

Why would someone go through all this nonsense when all one has to do is eat an adequate amount of protein fats and carbs. It's not that hard to figure out and. Also, in regard to your claim for gaining muscle while losing fat on low carb, please provide peer reviewed studies that support this when calories and protein are held constant.

One reason I can think of is that someone like me who has T1D would have BG issues if doing it the traditional way. I'm sure there are other reasons for other people, and I'm not going to question whether someone has a legitimate reason to attempt to build muscle and lose fat on a low carb, high protein diet. I'm willing to accept their reason is legitimate without questioning it.

Here are some sources to help you better understand the details described:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK22436/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC292907/?page=1
https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-0-387-85998-9_45

Wow, a lot of projecting of your own issues there. The OP never said anything about T1D or BG issues and didn't specifically state a desire for a low carb diet. He merely asked a question about carbs. Seems like any excuse for low carb/ keto derail.