What is your take on Saturated Fats and Cholesterol from red meats, dairy etc...
jordanblakejpgr
Posts: 19 Member
Hi there!
Basically I want peoples opinions on eating red meats, dairy - foods that are high in cholesterol or bad fats - ones that ' supposedly ' increase HDL cholesterol opposed to ones that can help increase LDL or reduce HDL.
I am currently enjoying a refined diet as I used to consume allot of sausages, bacon etc... sort of everyday really or at least 5 times a week as a main meal.
The impression I get from news articles is that we MUST STAY AWAY from red meat and switch to eating chicken and eating less cheese and using less of this and that... how much of this information is true - to what extent should we reduce consumption of foods high in so called ' bad ' fats?
Basically I want peoples opinions on eating red meats, dairy - foods that are high in cholesterol or bad fats - ones that ' supposedly ' increase HDL cholesterol opposed to ones that can help increase LDL or reduce HDL.
I am currently enjoying a refined diet as I used to consume allot of sausages, bacon etc... sort of everyday really or at least 5 times a week as a main meal.
The impression I get from news articles is that we MUST STAY AWAY from red meat and switch to eating chicken and eating less cheese and using less of this and that... how much of this information is true - to what extent should we reduce consumption of foods high in so called ' bad ' fats?
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Replies
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From what I have come to understand it's the saturated fats that you want to stayed away from. Eating cholesterol doesn't necessarily increase cholesterol, or that's what they're saying this week. I dont think there's anything wrong with red meats, bacon and sausage as long as you enjoy it in moderation.6
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The jury is still out on sat fat, and I'm not inclined to toss out all the evidence yet, but the idea is not that you need to eliminate sat fat (or meats/foods that have higher amounts of it). Processed meats like bacon have more evidence against them, but again it's a matter of amount.
I think one of the issues with bacon and, more, sausage is that they tend to be lower protein than other meats for the calories, since they are so high fat. That, to me, is the main reason not to base meals around them vs. leaner meats.
My own reading of the evidence is that it's good not to overdo red meat or meat in general, so I make sure not all my meals involve it and work in some meatless days and make sure I include other sources of protein (eggs and dairy, although of course they have some of the same claims made about them, and also legumes, especially).
I also make sure a good amount of the protein I get is from fish and other seafood and eat a pretty varied mix of red and other meat for the rest: lean beef, chicken (I don't focus on the breast and tend to eat the skin), turkey (again, all parts), pork, lamb, venison, etc.
I don't eat a whole lot of bacon or sausage, but will have it sometimes.
I ignore how much cholesterol is in food and might try watching sat fat more if I had a cholesterol problem to see if it helped (it helped my dad to cut way down on dairy fat and red meat, but he did have a cholesterol problem and was already normal weight and active -- both things that often contribute more than diet).5 -
As someone who distrusts 90% of everything I read online, I eat just as much red meat and bacon as I ever did. My cholesterol levels are perfect. A lot of its scare mongering in my opinion. Much like every other time in history they've labelled a food as bad, only to turn around later and say they were wrong.10
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My take is that the "bad" foods and the "good" foods depend on who is paying who and very seldom is backed by non-biased science. There are some exceptions but I don't believe most of what I read.8
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Arnt saturated fats supposed to be good now?1
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My grandmother lived by the adage "All things in moderation." She lived to be 92 years old, was completely independent and never spent a night in the hospital until 3 days before she died...even gave birth to her kids at home. I have come to believe it is the secret to all of life.1
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A little of everything and a lot of nothing IMO...0
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I can tell you that I feel like CRAP and have NO energy if I don't eat enough saturated fat and cholesterol. On the other hand, if I eat too much it seems to cause inflammation in my skin. I eat 2-3 whole eggs every single day and eat red meat about once per week, butter a few times per week, cheese and ice cream about once per week. I regularly eat peanut butter and a bit of coconut oil which does contain some saturated fat, as well as chicken on a daily basis. Even my cod liver oil has 1g saturated fat in it. I also experience the same thing with Polyunsaturated fats- too much = skin problems, too little = low energy. I think we really just need to eat a wide variety of foods and get a bit of everything in order to have optimal health.0
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I googled American Heart Association and I found this. Maybe it can help.
https://healthyforgood.heart.org/Eat-smart/Articles/Saturated-Fats
The American Heart Association recommends aiming for a dietary pattern that achieves 5% to 6% of calories from saturated fat. For example, if you need about 2,000 calories a day, no more than 120 of them should come from saturated fat. That’s about 13 grams of saturated fat per day.4 -
Saturated fats appear to be perfectly healthy. I think the latest study, the PURE study, found that higher rates of saturated fat intake were not associated with a higher risk of mortality.
I do think the type of food the saturated fats are found in matters. The more processed a meat is, and by processed I mean preservatives added, the less healthy it would be. By that I mean ground beef or a porkchop is probably healthier than bacon and hotdog sausages. KWIM?
So no, I would say the advice to stay away from saturated fats and red meat is based on very little science, if any.
Now vegetable oils? Not so good...9 -
I lowered my cholesterol by drastically cutting the amt of added sugar in my diet.
http://www.webmd.com/heart-disease/news/20100420/high-sugar-diet-linked-lower-good-cholesterol
Chronic dehydration can also increase blood cholesterol.
I'm a vegetarian, don't eat many saturated fats anyway (except cheese) but my cholesterol was borderline high. I am convinced cutting sugar made a huge difference. I also try pretty hard to eat healthy fats. Getting plenty of fiber really helps cholesterol levels, too.6 -
TheWJordinWJordin wrote: »I googled American Heart Association and I found this. Maybe it can help.
https://healthyforgood.heart.org/Eat-smart/Articles/Saturated-Fats
The American Heart Association recommends aiming for a dietary pattern that achieves 5% to 6% of calories from saturated fat. For example, if you need about 2,000 calories a day, no more than 120 of them should come from saturated fat. That’s about 13 grams of saturated fat per day.
As posted above, but remember, minimum intake is as important as not exceeding certain targets. A lesson I wish I'd known sooner!
I developed angina in my early 40's and was also diagnosed with high cholesterol. My Dr's told me to follow a low fat diet and that in addition, weight loss would help. I was borderline obese/severely obese at this point. I have never smoked and heart disease is rife in my family. I was seen by a nurse at a weight loss clinic and given a diet plan to follow. But they were aware I couldn't increase exercise because of my other disability. 12 wks on the new diet plan, checking in weekly, I only managed to lose 3lb, (at the beginning). When seen by nurse at follow up clinic, I was advised to cut my intake even more. Because of my lack of progress, they were adamant I was either eating more than I was logging, not following meal plan, or if my diary was accurate, I would need to eat even less. Probably because my disability had reduced calories out. I was fed up and eventually stopped going to clinic, as I felt that they did not believe me. I knew I was weighing and logging, accurately and honestly. I was desperate to improve my health. Even though I stopped attending the clinic I continued following the new lower diet plan for a total of 9 mths and lost 4/5lbs in total. I couldn't lose weight but I was at least maintaining, so wouldn't eat more.
Feeling really depressed at this point, I was also feeling really run down, unwell and had many new symptoms, (hair loss, finger nails falling out etc). Went back to Dr's and eventually I was diagnosed with an autoimmune disease as well, which hadn't helped my symptoms. But further blood tests also revealed that my "bad" cholesterol levels had reduced dramatically and we're now within the healthy range but instead my "good" fats level had dropped dangerously low. Was now important to raise the amount of my fat intake. Despite following medical advise, my fat intake was far to low. It was at this point I realised I needed to know exactly how many calories I was consuming and to track my fat intake. To find a healthy balance. At this point, my daughter introduced to MFP. I've not looked back since.
My previous diet plan (from medical team) had me on approx. 1,000 calories per day and my total fat intake was about 10g to 12g. The nurse that told me, "that in today's society, it was impossible to follow a diet that was to low in fat, if logged accurately" was terribly wrong!
Fortunately I discovered MFP and now use it as a great tool to monitor by intake of calories and insure I have a well balanced diet. I have now lost 39lbs (just under 3 st) and I'm now borderline overweight/healthy. I continue to lose weight, in a slow and healthy manor. I eat far more and now enjoy foods once again, anything in moderation. I've managed to turn around all my blood tests and now get healthy results. It has also help control my symptoms.2 -
I'm on a keto plan and I'm eating eggs, sat fat cholesterol meats and all. Go to Ketovangelist podcast and listen to episodes 100 and 111 and let a scientist and a cardiologist tell you about cholesterol.2
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My thoughts:
Avoid trans fat as much as possible
Eat more unsaturated fats than saturated fats
Limit fat from beef/dairy
Limit processed meats
Limit fat in general (personal rule as this is a problem for me)
Also, OP you have your LDL and HDL mixed up. LDL is generally referred to as the 'bad' cholesterol and HDL as 'good'7 -
All things in moderation. I used to eat red meat daily but have stopped eating hamburgers. Other red meat has been replaced with fish, chicken or pork. Still enjoy a steak once a week. I also gave up the majority of things deep fried although I still have potato chips occasionally.0
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Some interesting literature studies.
A meta-study covering over 300,000 people in the original studies concludes no association between sat fat and an increase in cardiovascular diseases. http://m.ajcn.nutrition.org/content/early/2010/01/13/ajcn.2009.27725.short
A study looking at France and Finland which both have similar levels of sat fat consumption but Finland has 3-4 times the level of CVD. Conclusion is that a "good" Mediterranean diet is protective and conversely a high consumption of dairy fat may increase CVD. http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/88/6/2771.short
An expert panel finds replacing sat fat with polyunsaturated fat reduces CVD very slightly but not if replaced with mono-unsaturated fats. http://m.ajcn.nutrition.org/content/93/4/684.short
That adherrence to a good Mediterranean style diet is slightly protective against CVD and cancer. http://m.ajcn.nutrition.org/content/92/5/1189.short
Replacing sat fat with non-sat fat but not carbs may slow or reverse the progression of artery disease - other measures such as exercise are also (more) important. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2824150/
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The biggest difficulty is disentangling all the different effects. Some independent, some dependent, and their effect in individuals who are fat, not fat, eat the SAD, eat a Mediterranean diet, exercise, don't exercise etc. etc and their importance.
And a high level of a nutrient can often be expressed in percentage terms rather than absolute terms. Eating say 3,000 calories a day rather than 2,000 is likely to be damaging whether those extra calories come from carbs, sat fat, other fat, or protein.
Also it might be a higher sat fat level pushes such an individual over the edge.
Equally for very fit individuals who exercise a lot, eat at maintenance and have a good Mediterranean diet high in different veg, fruit and lean proteins - it probably matters little if at all whether all their fat comes from sat fat or non-sat fat or the percentage.
Personally I track sat fat in mfp and believe that it is at the least precautionary to limit it but also that other factors are way more important.
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I guess my summary is that for (very) fit individuals it probably doesn't matter, for the rest of us, as a precaution limit sat fat and replace sat fat with polyunsaturated fat to a degree but worry about other things much, much more.5 -
Umm... No. That's not what the PURE study found. The study basically comes down to this:Saturated fats appear to be perfectly healthy. I think the latest study, the PURE study, found that higher rates of saturated fat intake were not associated with a higher risk of mortality.
People from poor countries have poor diets and poor healthcare, therefore are sicker and have higher rates mortality. This study changes nothing.
Either:
(1) you read the study and didn't understand it
Or
(2) didn't bother to read the study and just regurgitated something from one of your favorite keto propaganda websites
Or
(3) your being intellectually dishonest again and purposely trying to mislead people and hoping no one will notice.
Just for fun, what was the highest % of calories from saturated fat in the PURE study, what was the average and what are the current WHO recommendations for sat fat intake?
Also, saturated fat is not perfectly healthy:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26068959
Do you have any misinterpreted data to support this?Now vegetable oils? Not so good...
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Good piece on the PURE study: https://www.thenutritionwonk.com/single-post/2017/08/29/The-5-Continent-PURE-Study-A-Prospective-Cohort-Study
I also recommend the same author's https://www.thenutritionwonk.com/single-post/2016/12/19/A-Fake-Nutrition-Controversy-in-Four-Bullet-Points.
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I'm not sure if I want to go against webmd.com, world health organization, american health organization, health.com, etc, etc. It's my health. I will be smart about it.5
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The answer to this is simple for me. I have familial hypercholesterolemia. I limit fats and saturated fats. Since I'm a vegetarian, it's pretty easy for me to do this. Most of my sat fat comes from dairy.0
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I personally like to keep my saturated fats within daily recommendations while getting more fats from polysaturated and monosaturated fats. I certainly don't see saturated fat as being the evil it once was considered to be but have found that this way of eating works best for me. I'd much prefer to go low fat milk and greek yogurt if it gives me enough calories for a handful of almonds at the end of the day.1
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Umm... No. That's not what the PURE study found. The study basically comes down to this:Saturated fats appear to be perfectly healthy. I think the latest study, the PURE study, found that higher rates of saturated fat intake were not associated with a higher risk of mortality.
People from poor countries have poor diets and poor healthcare, therefore are sicker and have higher rates mortality. This study changes nothing.
Either:
(1) you read the study and didn't understand it
Or
(2) didn't bother to read the study and just regurgitated something from one of your favorite keto propaganda websites
Or
(3) your being intellectually dishonest again and purposely trying to mislead people and hoping no one will notice.
Just for fun, what was the highest % of calories from saturated fat in the PURE study, what was the average and what are the current WHO recommendations for sat fat intake?
Also, saturated fat is not perfectly healthy:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26068959
Do you have any misinterpreted data to support this?Now vegetable oils? Not so good...
I think you may be over reacting. Just a bit.
The PURE study definitely looked at those with poorer diets. Poorer diets are often lower in animal products and higher in refined foods. It may be a coincidence. It may not.
But it also stated that higher saturated fats (and not even that high - not ketogenic) do not raise mortality. Those who were eating higher saturated fats often had a lower mortality.
I believe the PURE study's highest saturated fat was around 18%. I don't remember the average. Higher saturated fats were not associated with increased mortality. The WHO and the ADA have recommendations of 10% and 6%, although I may have mixed them up.
The link you included was hardly definitive. This is from your link:There was some evidence that reducing saturated fats reduced the risk of myocardial infarction (fatal and non-fatal, RR 0.90; 95% CI 0.80 to 1.01; 11 trials, 53,167 participants), but evidence for non-fatal myocardial infarction (RR 0.95; 95% CI 0.80 to 1.13; 9 trials, 52,834 participants) was unclear and there were no clear effects on stroke (any stroke, RR 1.00; 95% CI 0.89 to 1.12; 8 trials, 50,952 participants).
And yes, it appears that vegetable oils are less healthy than saturated fats. High levels of omega 6s from highly processed vegetable oils do not appear to be all that healthy. Safflower, soy and corn oils are what I am talking about here. Foods you would not normally associate with fats and oils.
My misinterpreted date:
http://www.cmaj.ca/content/186/6/434.full
Avocado, olive or nut oils are healthier non animal fat sources than vegetable oils. Coconut oil too, but that is the king of saturated fats from plants.4 -
As someone who distrusts 90% of everything I read online, I eat just as much red meat and bacon as I ever did. My cholesterol levels are perfect. A lot of its scare mongering in my opinion. Much like every other time in history they've labelled a food as bad, only to turn around later and say they were wrong.
I agree here. When I was doing a "low fat low carb diet" my blood sugar and cholesterol were way out of whack. That's because everything low fat has tons of hidden sugar and artificial sugar/chemicals. After trying it the traditional way and failing over and over again, I started researching nutrition. I found out through trials and error that a low sugar/carb with higher fat diet not only made me lose more weight quicker, but my blood sugar went back to normal. My insulin response was increased and brought my cholesterol levels back to normal range. I haven't had any adverse effects since. Sugar feeds fat cells while cholesterol repairs damage to arteries. Who would have thought?4 -
As someone who distrusts 90% of everything I read online, I eat just as much red meat and bacon as I ever did. My cholesterol levels are perfect. A lot of its scare mongering in my opinion. Much like every other time in history they've labelled a food as bad, only to turn around later and say they were wrong.
I agree here. When I was doing a "low fat low carb diet" my blood sugar and cholesterol were way out of whack.
Other than as a short term super low cal for those who need to lose weight fast (super obese), low fat and low carb is rarely recommended, so I'm not surprised.That's because everything low fat has tons of hidden sugar and artificial sugar/chemicals.
Um, no, it doesn't, and if you were doing low carb too presumably you would have been avoiding those that do.
First, no sugar is hidden, it's on the label. Claiming it's hidden is a way of denying agency.
Second, some common low fat foods without added sugar (that I'd expect to be focused on if someone claims to be trying to do it for health -- I starred the ones that are also going to work okay on low carb, not many): *lean meats like chicken breast (no skin), turkey (same), white fish, tuna, lean cuts of pork and beef, game; *egg whites; *black soybeans and other soybean based foods like tofu; *all non starchy vegetables; beans and lentils; potatoes and sweet potatoes; fruit; skim dairy products; pasta and other grain-based foods like oats and couscous and barley. I could easily go on.
NO added sugar.
I personally do like a somewhat higher fat diet (although I still watch sat fat some and try to get more of my fat from non animal sources, especially, as well as from fatty fish), but the claim that if you eat low fat you eat lots of added sugar or that it's bad for everyone is just wrong. People differ on what works for them and many do well on low fat (I've done fine on low fat at times too, as when experimenting with cutting out animal products entirely, but I find that for me I feel more satisfied on higher fat -- I just don't assume all are the same).3 -
Aren't avocado, olive, and nut oils vegetable oils? Color me confused.3
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GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Aren't avocado, olive, and nut oils vegetable oils? Color me confused.
I thought that was odd too. Maybe they don't consider fruit and nut oils to be 'vegetable oil'??
But then I thought much of that post was nonsense.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »As someone who distrusts 90% of everything I read online, I eat just as much red meat and bacon as I ever did. My cholesterol levels are perfect. A lot of its scare mongering in my opinion. Much like every other time in history they've labelled a food as bad, only to turn around later and say they were wrong.
I agree here. When I was doing a "low fat low carb diet" my blood sugar and cholesterol were way out of whack.
Other than as a short term super low cal for those who need to lose weight fast (super obese), low fat and low carb is rarely recommended, so I'm not surprised.That's because everything low fat has tons of hidden sugar and artificial sugar/chemicals.
Um, no, it doesn't, and if you were doing low carb too presumably you would have been avoiding those that do.
First, no sugar is hidden, it's on the label. Claiming it's hidden is a way of denying agency.
Second, some common low fat foods without added sugar (that I'd expect to be focused on if someone claims to be trying to do it for health -- I starred the ones that are also going to work okay on low carb, not many): *lean meats like chicken breast (no skin), turkey (same), white fish, tuna, lean cuts of pork and beef, game; *egg whites; *black soybeans and other soybean based foods like tofu; *all non starchy vegetables; beans and lentils; potatoes and sweet potatoes; fruit; skim dairy products; pasta and other grain-based foods like oats and couscous and barley. I could easily go on.
NO added sugar.
I personally do like a somewhat higher fat diet (although I still watch sat fat some and try to get more of my fat from non animal sources, especially, as well as from fatty fish), but the claim that if you eat low fat you eat lots of added sugar or that it's bad for everyone is just wrong. People differ on what works for them and many do well on low fat (I've done fine on low fat at times too, as when experimenting with cutting out animal products entirely, but I find that for me I feel more satisfied on higher fat -- I just don't assume all are the same).
Since I'm a person who eats low fat for health, I, like you, find the argument that my diet is by nature higher in sugar absurd on the face of it unless you assume I'm eating a poor diet.
Even my non-fat cheese has the following ingredients (yes, sacrilege, I like the stuff):Nonfat Mozzarella Cheese [Pasteurized Skim Milk, Cheese Culture, Salt, Enzymes, Yeast (Ingredient Not in Regular Mozzarella Cheese), Artificial Color, Vitamin A Palmitate], Potato Starch, Cellulose Powder and Calcium Sulfate Added to Prevent Caking, Natamycin (a Natural Mold Inhibitor).
No sugar. A few "chemicals", and the day I worry about a trace amount of artificial color is the day I start fashioning tin foil hats for myself.
I eat 2% plain yogurt. No added sugar. The only things I eat that have added sugar are breakfast cereals, and I expect them to have added sugar. I read the ingredient labels.
Saying that, the vast amount of sugar in my diet comes from fruit and vegetables.
I can't, for my health, eat a high fat diet. I don't, by preference, eat a lot of sugar, but I certainly eat some. I'm definitely not getting it "hidden" in any of the low-fat products I use.
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I'm all about balance and moderation. I eat more fish and chicken than red meat...but I still eat red meat and my dairy consumption is moderate. I tend to go with the current guidelines which isn't to eliminate saturated fat, but to keep saturated fat at or below the recommended level which I do for the most part and I try to get more MUFA and PUFA from things like nuts, avocados, etc...
You don't want to eliminate Saturated fat completely as some saturated fats are essential for production of certain hormones like testosterone. Dietary cholesterol has been shown to not really have much if any impact on blood serum levels...your liver makes more than you could possible eat and most dietary cholesterol is esterified and can't be absorbed.
Personally, I believe the leading causes for high cholesterol are 1) genetics; 2) lack of regular exercise; 3) too many highly processed/refined carbohydrates and free sugars; 4) not enough whole foods, particularly fruits and vegetables and other fibrous foods like beans, lentils, oats, etc; 5) being overweight/obese. (not in any particular order, but I do think heredity/genetics plays a massive part).
Basically eating the SAD (which is a really *kitten* diet) and not moving...2 -
Sometime you are better off ignoring studies. I can remember switching from butter to margarine because margarine is so much better for you. I also know someone that has always eaten what I would call unhealthy foods all her life. She is 101 years old and lives alone. I try to get my fats from tree nuts, olive oil and veggies. I just take the viewpoint that I already know what is probably a food I should limit or avoid like french fries or doughnuts for example. Its not very scientific but I think it works for me. Saves a lot of research time too because you never know when that bus is going to hit you.4
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