Calories in calories out is it that simple?
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snickerscharlie wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Christine_72 wrote: »Surely everyone knows at least one person who lives on take away/ready meals/junk food and absolutely refuses to eat a single solitary fruit or vegetable!
I do not currently know anyone like this, no. I am aware that people who eat few vegetables and fruits exist, of course, but in my social circle eating well seems to be normal. I am here talking about friends and family who I discuss food stuff with and co-workers who I eat with somewhat regularly and also sometimes discuss food stuff with, as well as general conversations and nutrition and food with acquaintances.
I also don't really think it's my business how others eat, and am not sure how I would know how the family next to me eats if they don't discuss it.
I could not judge from what I see people buying at the supermarket, since who knows. Where I live I think people go frequently and buy a few things at once. Someone who saw me at the Jewel on the wrong day might think I only buy diet soda and canned and frozen stuff, since during the summer I get all produce from other sources (my CSA, the green market) and always I get my meat and eggs and some dairy from farms.
I also live near a baseball park and many hang out in this neighborhood or party on game days, so on some days if I assumed what my neighbors bought from the carts at the grocery store I'd assume they were just all alcoholics since they are buying only booze.
I'm a frequent shopper and I shop a few different places (based on the selection). You really can't tell anything by looking at someone's shopping cart. I sometimes look at my purchases and try to imagine what people must think of me, but the truth is that it looks really different depending on where I'm shopping, whether it's a major trip, or what my plans are for the week.
This. ^^ I get most of my fresh produce at the farmer's market during the summer, so rarely get those when I go shopping.
Yesterday at the grocery store, the woman behind me was glaring disdainfully at what I was purchasing. Diet soda, store-made white bread, bacon, butter, chips, ice cream, ground beef, cat food (lol), a bag of sugar and coffee cream, amongst other staples. She gave me a look that would kill at 20 paces. I laughed to myself as I noted that in her cart was kale, a quinoa salad, gluten-free bread, organic spinach and a tub of protein powder.
Just to totally piss her off, I tossed in a Snickers bar for good measure.
I do like you
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Please tell me you tossed the Snickers into her cart.8
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RAD_Fitness wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »RAD_Fitness wrote: »Poisonedpawn78 wrote: »RAD_Fitness wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »RAD_Fitness wrote: »Poisonedpawn78 wrote: »RAD_Fitness wrote: »Poisonedpawn78 wrote: »RAD_Fitness wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »RAD_Fitness wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »RAD_Fitness wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »RAD_Fitness wrote: »JeromeBarry1 wrote: »RAD_Fitness wrote: »JeromeBarry1 wrote: »I'm still trying to understand what "eat unhealthy" is.
An abundance of low nutrient dense foods.
That's too vague.
I disagree. It's a spectrum. Some foods are more nutrient dense than others, which for me would make them more unhealthy (to me). Not to say I do or others should only eat the healthiest (most nutrient dense foods) available to them. But if you're looking for a definition, I am willing to bet that's what most people consider to be the determining factor of how "unhealthy" something is.
If you disagree that's fine.
So how would you specifically determine if there was an "abundance" of these foods in someone's diet?
By looking at what they're eating....
I mean, how would you distinguish "an abundance" from "some"?
I said it was a spectrum.....
I am not sure what you're on about..... He asked for a definition of healthy foods and I said it was based on nutrient density. Do you disagree?
You can't measure an individual food in isolation. It is in the context of the overall diet. As I pointed out upthread, the phrase "healthy eating" is very subjective. Is Freelees diet healthy? She eats an awful lot of bananas, and those are nutrient dense, so her diet must be healthy, right? There are users on here who eat a carnivore diet - almost nothing but meat, nuts, and fat. Meat is healthy, right? So are nuts... So their diet is healthy, because they eat an abundance of foods that provide protein and healthy fats.
You guys keep twisting things like I am advocating some kind of a crazy clean healthy "only this not that" diet. I am not, I am merely responding to his question on what I believe "unhealthy" to mean. I believe a food that is low in nutrient density is unhealthy.
So you do think celery, cucumbers and iceberg lettuce are unhealthy.
They aren't low nutrient density foods... They're just super low in calories.
So less than 5% in vitamins per 100g per daily recommended intake isnt low nutrient? So that must mean French fries are a super nutritious because they have 20% daily B6 vitamin per 100g.
Do you see the flaw in your thinking yet?
No, you're not understanding the meaning of nutrient density. It's not based on weight, its based off nutrients per calorie, not nutrients per weight.
Density is a measure of x per volume. not weight. but otherwise. you're still mistaken.
You guys, its a basic definition..... Nutrient density is based off the nutrient value per calorie in a given food.
Ok so you want to make up a definition for density now. So Avocados are unhealthy?
Actually, nutrient density was defined by Joel Fuhrman. Nutrients (and he really means micros) per calorie is the commonly recognized definition.
Things like olive oil are not nutrient dense. Olive oil is less nutrient dense than ice cream, potato chips and french fries. It does beat out non-diet sodas, though.
Nutrient density is still not a smart way to judge the 'health' of a food.
What do you think would be a better way? That's just my opinion.
Generally foods that are higher nutrient density are considered healthier foods, and foods that are lower density are considered less healthy.
It's generally accepted around here to talk about a DIET that is built around primarily nutrient dense foods. That's totally fine and no one really bats an eye. It's when you try to isolate individual foods into "healthy/unhealthy" or "good/bad" that it becomes a slippery slope - for the reasons I outlined above. You really can't evaluate individual foods without looking at the context of the overall DIET.
I agree, so would you say that a DIET consisting of mainly nutrient dense foods is more HEALTHY than a diet consisting of less nutrient dense foods?
For me, I would say yes, I believe a diet consisting of more nutrient dense foods makes the diet more healthy.
Not sure if you were here for the start, by my original response was a response to someone asking what an unhealthy diet was. And I responded with a diet with an abundance of low nutrient dense foods. Not word for word but something along those lines.
Not @WinoGelato, but since this is an extension from my 'Nutrient density is still not a smart way to judge the 'health' of a food.', I'm answering anyway.
No, I don't agree. One can fit in all of their micros in < 1000 cals assuming standard requirements. Depending on one's TDEE, that may leave a lot of room to play with. Eating more micros at that point may be neutral - excess (over requirements) is harmlessly excreted, better for you - excess is put to good use, or harmful - excess is deleterious. Or any combination of those choices. It depends on what you're eating and how much.
I'd go so far as to suggest that once you've met your macro and micro goals, eating food that fits your calorie goals without regard to nutrients IS healthy behavior. What is "good health" for if not for added opportunities to do the things we enjoy - including eating things we like?5 -
WinoGelato wrote: »Christine_72 wrote: »Surely everyone knows at least one person who lives on take away/ready meals/junk food and absolutely refuses to eat a single solitary fruit or vegetable! I have a family right next door to me who eats like this, and if they came on here asking "can i eat anything and still lose weight" they would 100% mean, can i eat the crap foods that made me super obese and still lose weight. Some people give no *kitten* about nutrition whatsoever.
You know what your neighbors eat for every meal?
If i didn't, i wouldn't have mentioned it
I have had the food conversation and what she eats and doesn't eat dozens and dozens of times over the years, she constantly complains about her poor eating and lack of cooking but never does anything about it, she's also in her late 40's, so not young, stressed or inexperienced.
And if i have to pick up one more Mcdonalds or subway wrapper that blows into my yard from her overflowing bin (made up of mostly food boxes and take away containers) I'm gonna have a fit! 8 times out of 10 when she pulls into her driveway in the evenings she has a box of takeaway for dinner for her and her kid.1 -
Christine_72 wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »Christine_72 wrote: »Surely everyone knows at least one person who lives on take away/ready meals/junk food and absolutely refuses to eat a single solitary fruit or vegetable! I have a family right next door to me who eats like this, and if they came on here asking "can i eat anything and still lose weight" they would 100% mean, can i eat the crap foods that made me super obese and still lose weight. Some people give no *kitten* about nutrition whatsoever.
You know what your neighbors eat for every meal?
If i didn't, i wouldn't have mentioned it I have had the food conversation and what she eats and doesn't eat dozens and dozens of times over the years, she constantly complains about her poor eating and lack of cooking but never does anything about it, she's also in her late 40's, so not young, stressed or inexperienced.
And if i have to pick up one more Mcdonalds or subway wrapper that blows into my yard from her overflowing bin (made up of mostly food boxes and take away containers) I'm gonna have a fit! 8 times out of 10 when she pulls into her driveway in the evenings she has a box of takeaway for dinner for her and her kid.
This seems to be a growing trend, but I find it hard to adopt it. My mother cooked for all the years when I was growing up, and now my wife has been cooking for all these years I'm married. Interestingly enough, our daughter also enjoys cooking and baking, and says she plans to continue this when she leaves to get married and start her own home. I find it very difficult to comprehend people buying all sorts of ready made meals and junk food as their way of life.2 -
George Mateljan has got some great stuff on eating nutrient dense foods on his website. Just picked up his World's Healthiest Foods 2nd edition book. It's a TREASURE TROVE of great, hightly researched information.4
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Ericnutrition wrote: »JustRobby1 wrote: »According to the AMA and other authoritative bodies within the United States, a "balanced diet" is not really all that subjective, and looks something like this:
However, I think you will find many people among the fad diet crowd who would not find this to be healthy at all. Such a diet would fill them with paranoia. Bread, cheese, rice, pasta, butter (on my!) or nearly any other individual food on the above graphic representing a balanced diet has to the potential to cause several dieting cults or "clean" eating psychos to lose their cookies. Why? Because most of these individual sects operate largely outside the realm of medical science and nutrition and rely instead on semantics and pop culture to forward their ideas.
Regardless of this, I know one universal way to improve health and decrease risk for a wide assortment of health related conditions and diseases, and that is to decrease your BMI. In this context your diet of choice is largely irrelevant. Be it clean, balanced or otherwise. the biological mechanism to achieve weight loss is identical.
If you are diabetic, that's a terrible diet. I wonder if the AMA makes a differentiation. PS - your average doctor knows nothing about diet and nutrition.
Why should the average person worry about being diabetic?
Diabetes also doesn't mean you have to forgo carbs.
Paging @earlnabby .2 -
Ericnutrition wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Ericnutrition wrote: »JustRobby1 wrote: »According to the AMA and other authoritative bodies within the United States, a "balanced diet" is not really all that subjective, and looks something like this:
However, I think you will find many people among the fad diet crowd who would not find this to be healthy at all. Such a diet would fill them with paranoia. Bread, cheese, rice, pasta, butter (on my!) or nearly any other individual food on the above graphic representing a balanced diet has to the potential to cause several dieting cults or "clean" eating psychos to lose their cookies. Why? Because most of these individual sects operate largely outside the realm of medical science and nutrition and rely instead on semantics and pop culture to forward their ideas.
Regardless of this, I know one universal way to improve health and decrease risk for a wide assortment of health related conditions and diseases, and that is to decrease your BMI. In this context your diet of choice is largely irrelevant. Be it clean, balanced or otherwise. the biological mechanism to achieve weight loss is identical.
If you are diabetic, that's a terrible diet. I wonder if the AMA makes a differentiation. PS - your average doctor knows nothing about diet and nutrition.
Why should the average person worry about being diabetic?
Diabetes also doesn't mean you have to forgo carbs.
Paging @earlnabby .
Because the way things are going, in 20 years the average person will be diabetic.
Yes, diabetes means you should forgo grains, sugars and starches as much as possible, unless you want to slowly deteriorate over the course of your life because of the diabetes. It's a fact.
Thats presumptuous.3 -
Ericnutrition wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Ericnutrition wrote: »JustRobby1 wrote: »According to the AMA and other authoritative bodies within the United States, a "balanced diet" is not really all that subjective, and looks something like this:
However, I think you will find many people among the fad diet crowd who would not find this to be healthy at all. Such a diet would fill them with paranoia. Bread, cheese, rice, pasta, butter (on my!) or nearly any other individual food on the above graphic representing a balanced diet has to the potential to cause several dieting cults or "clean" eating psychos to lose their cookies. Why? Because most of these individual sects operate largely outside the realm of medical science and nutrition and rely instead on semantics and pop culture to forward their ideas.
Regardless of this, I know one universal way to improve health and decrease risk for a wide assortment of health related conditions and diseases, and that is to decrease your BMI. In this context your diet of choice is largely irrelevant. Be it clean, balanced or otherwise. the biological mechanism to achieve weight loss is identical.
If you are diabetic, that's a terrible diet. I wonder if the AMA makes a differentiation. PS - your average doctor knows nothing about diet and nutrition.
Why should the average person worry about being diabetic?
Diabetes also doesn't mean you have to forgo carbs.
Paging @earlnabby .
Because the way things are going, in 20 years the average person will be diabetic.
Yes, diabetes means you should forgo grains, sugars and starches as much as possible, unless you want to slowly deteriorate over the course of your life because of the diabetes. It's a fact.
Do you know what causes diabetes? I don't think you do.4 -
For me yeah. I am using my bmi number as my calories and am down the lightest ever with 6 days a week work out and increase muscle mass. I pig out on Saturday's though 1
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Ericnutrition wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Ericnutrition wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Ericnutrition wrote: »JustRobby1 wrote: »According to the AMA and other authoritative bodies within the United States, a "balanced diet" is not really all that subjective, and looks something like this:
However, I think you will find many people among the fad diet crowd who would not find this to be healthy at all. Such a diet would fill them with paranoia. Bread, cheese, rice, pasta, butter (on my!) or nearly any other individual food on the above graphic representing a balanced diet has to the potential to cause several dieting cults or "clean" eating psychos to lose their cookies. Why? Because most of these individual sects operate largely outside the realm of medical science and nutrition and rely instead on semantics and pop culture to forward their ideas.
Regardless of this, I know one universal way to improve health and decrease risk for a wide assortment of health related conditions and diseases, and that is to decrease your BMI. In this context your diet of choice is largely irrelevant. Be it clean, balanced or otherwise. the biological mechanism to achieve weight loss is identical.
If you are diabetic, that's a terrible diet. I wonder if the AMA makes a differentiation. PS - your average doctor knows nothing about diet and nutrition.
Why should the average person worry about being diabetic?
Diabetes also doesn't mean you have to forgo carbs.
Paging @earlnabby .
Because the way things are going, in 20 years the average person will be diabetic.
Yes, diabetes means you should forgo grains, sugars and starches as much as possible, unless you want to slowly deteriorate over the course of your life because of the diabetes. It's a fact.
Do you know what causes diabetes? I don't think you do.
Yes I do. And I did not say grains, starches and sugar cause T2 diabetes. You should avoid grains, sugars and starches if you are pre-T2 or T2. Unless you want to inject large amounts of insulin for the rest of your life, likely gain weight, and likely be a lot less healthy than people who do not have T2.
Incorrect. You should manage them. You don't need to avoid them. Some T2's need to avoid certain grains and not others.
What T2's should do is reach a normal weight and become active.
Again, paging @earlnabby4 -
Former T2 in remission here. I did it with significant weight loss and bariatric surgery.
I have not given up a single carb, and I choose my plate according to the national guidelines.
I do prefer vegetables over fruit without giving up either one and out of habit eat protein with my carbs.6 -
Former T2 in remission here. I did it with significant weight loss and bariatric surgery.
I have not given up a single carb, and I choose my plate according to the national guidelines.
I do prefer vegetables over fruit without giving up either one and out of habit eat protein with my carbs.
I was going to page you in here too! I was pretty sure you were in remission. If I'm not mistaken, you took up occasionally running as well, didn't you?0 -
Maybe, but the calories would be really low and you might not get adequate nutrition. Some foods do boost your metabolism a bit and give you energy.1
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It is as simple as that - the most important difference is the macros and micros (nutrition factors of your food). Baby steps though... don't deprive yourself from the foods you love, simply learn serving sizes before you know it you will be selecting more nutritional dense foods, cuz usually more nutritional dense, less calories, the more you can eat to find that satiation spot.0
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GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Ericnutrition wrote: »JustRobby1 wrote: »According to the AMA and other authoritative bodies within the United States, a "balanced diet" is not really all that subjective, and looks something like this:
However, I think you will find many people among the fad diet crowd who would not find this to be healthy at all. Such a diet would fill them with paranoia. Bread, cheese, rice, pasta, butter (on my!) or nearly any other individual food on the above graphic representing a balanced diet has to the potential to cause several dieting cults or "clean" eating psychos to lose their cookies. Why? Because most of these individual sects operate largely outside the realm of medical science and nutrition and rely instead on semantics and pop culture to forward their ideas.
Regardless of this, I know one universal way to improve health and decrease risk for a wide assortment of health related conditions and diseases, and that is to decrease your BMI. In this context your diet of choice is largely irrelevant. Be it clean, balanced or otherwise. the biological mechanism to achieve weight loss is identical.
If you are diabetic, that's a terrible diet. I wonder if the AMA makes a differentiation. PS - your average doctor knows nothing about diet and nutrition.
Why should the average person worry about being diabetic?
Diabetes also doesn't mean you have to forgo carbs.
Paging @earlnabby .
Here. Better late than never.
Diabetics do not need to eliminate carbs. They DO need to watch them and limit on a sliding scale as needed to manage their disease. Some do best on low carb or even keto, others are good with moderate carbs. The types of carb-y food depends on the severity of the disease. Those who take insulin really need to know the total sugars as well as the total carbs in a meal in order to calculate the correct dosage. Those on oral medication or managing by diet and exercise can just monitor their total carbs for the day.
Fiber in the food slows the conversion to blood glucose. The difference is, you either have a spike and fall, or you have a slow rise and slow drop. Either way, your AVERAGE blood glucose for the day will be the same. There are some issues with the quick drop, especially for those on medication but for T2 diabetics not using insulin the average numbers are the most important. That is why they have their A1C checked every 3 months. It gives the average blood glucose over the previous 2-3 months (lifetime of a red blood cell).
Insulin is a good thing. It is what the body produces in order to handle glucose in the blood. In diabetics, there is a problem with that mechanism. Either the pancreas does not produce enough insulin (or none in the case of T1Dm) or the cells in your body do not handle insulin correctly (insulin resistance) allowing glucose to remain in the bloodstream. The excess glucose in the bloodstream is what causes damage. If it is not turned into energy or stored for future energy needs over time, the body has issues.
What you eat does NOT cause diabetes. Diabetes is a disease of the pancreas where the beta cells do not function properly. Doctors STILL do not know why it happens. They HAVE identified risk factors in those who developed the disease:- Genetics (family history and also racial heritage)
- Obesity
- Age (the pancreas gets old just like the rest of the body)
- Long term use of some medications like statins and certain types of antidepressant
- If your mother had gestational diabetes when carrying you
- Some cancer treatments, especially in childhood
- There is some correlation to environmental factors like exposure to arsenic and herbicides/pesticides but these need further study to determine an actual causation.
Most people who develop T2Dm have two or more of the risk factors, but many with a genetic risk don't need a second. Scientists do NOT know what actually triggers the disease.
The only risk factor totally under our control is obesity. Not only is it the #2 risk factor, it can combine with genetics to trigger the disease and it can contribute to the heart issues where statins are prescribed, which also are a risk factor.
Me, I was diagnosed at age 58. I have been overweight most of my adult life but became very obese in my 40's. Diabetes is unknown in my family even though many in my family have weight issues. I have been taking antidepressants for the last 15 years to deal with Major Depressive Disorder (which does run in my family). I started losing weight immediately after diagnosis and limiting my carbs to a maximum of 180 grams per day (the amount recommended by my Certified Diabetes Educator PCP). My starting A1c was 7.3. I was on medication for 8 months and when my A1C dropped to 5.5 in that time I was taken off the meds. I still have 60 lb to lose, but my A1C has stayed between 5.0 and 5.5 ever since. My calories are lower now so I changed my maximum carbs to 160.
I am a T2Dm in remission, managing by diet and exercise . . . and I DO eat carbs. I just can't eat all that I want. I limit my fruit and eat more veggies instead (always have preferred veggies over most fruit anyway). I tend to get side salads instead of fries when eating at my favorite bar and grill. My sandwiches are with one slice of bread instead of two. I do occasionally get those fries and love them.
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