As low impact to all joints as swimming but not swimming

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  • middlehaitch
    middlehaitch Posts: 8,487 Member
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    @canadianlbs, just had a look at the Hepburn Method and really like the look of it.

    I have been doing AllPro which is a rep before weight progression routine also, but with 2 warm up sets and 2 working sets (8-12 rep) and a heavy, medium, and light day, and have been feeling a bit burnt out lately. I think, not sure yet, I may switch to this for a few months just to give myself a break.

    I think it could be an excellent programme for the (ahmmm) older beginner. :)

    Thanks for posting about it.

    Here is a link to the version I'm looking at is it similar to what you are doing?

    https://www.muscleandstrength.com/articles/extreme-powerbuilding-doug-hepburn.html

    Cheers, h.
    Sorry for the slight detour on your thread @CarvedTones.
  • CarvedTones
    CarvedTones Posts: 2,340 Member
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    canadianlbs wrote: »
    CarvedTones wrote: »
    Another downside (sort of; really just not optimal) is that I have pretty muscular legs. When I have ridden recently I did not have trouble with some fairly long steep climbs (in low gear, but still had me burning). But I am paying the price for the aggressive climbs with knee pain.

    i gotcha. being a cyclist i know the whole 'tight quads' thing. you MIGHT find that that improves if you work to bring up your hamstrings and glutes to the same general strength level, for what that's worth. it depends on the type of knee pain and of course all the ymmv stuff applies. but i have most definitely been there with way overactive quads causing me to think that i'd ruined my knees. stretching them out does help - just be careful with some because it's also possible to stretch the front of your hip capsule instead of the muscle itself. but balancing the strength front to back has been a big helper for me.

    with cycling, i'm on my third or fourth 'real' bike by this point and i absolutely hold out for at least 27 gears. might not be what everyone needs, and it's not even what i need a lot of the time. but i want the range for the times and the routes where it is what i need.

    The knee pain is two fold - when the surgeon showed me photos he explained that he didn't really fix the meniscus, he just cleaned it up so it wouldn't overlap at the worst tear and the other tears didn't have such ragged edges, then he trimmed the frayed edge off of the patella. So that can still get pain. But he also took a picture of arthritis on the way out and warned me that no one is doing anything about that.

    So low impact but also no motions that might grind if your meniscus looks like Swiss cheese.
  • VintageFeline
    VintageFeline Posts: 6,771 Member
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    When you say tone, do you mean you want to look firmer? That's achieved by lowering body fat. In other words losing weight. Of course it also helps if you have decent lean mass under that fat too.
  • canadianlbs
    canadianlbs Posts: 5,199 Member
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    middlehaitch wrote: »
    Here is a link to the version I'm looking at is it similar to what you are doing?

    https://www.muscleandstrength.com/articles/extreme-powerbuilding-doug-hepburn.html

    yup, that's the one. i did the 8-rep test to find my work weight, and it took my ego a little talking to accept the whole thing. that combination of 'light' weight AND short sets really made me feel like i was admitting to certain things. such as that i'm not 'really' a 'lifter' right now :tongue: even worse when i started to do it for real and discovered that yeah; even 8 doubles isn't the laugher i thought it would be. i'd say it took until about the middle of that first cycle before i felt i was picking up speed.

    it's been worth it though. don't quote me as it's just a guess, but my layman's idea is that it's been great for me because wendler worked so well that my muscles were starting to outgrow their own tendons and ligaments. most of what i'm fighting with feels like overuse/strain, so for whatever reason it does feel like this programme is giving them time to catch up. i'm seeing it as a sort of c25k for lifters, i guess. some of the stuff that i've noticed, although again this has only been cycle 1:

    - seems to make a difference when your setup-to-rep ratio is so low. and with short sets, i find my form has no time to drift or creep either. so probably a higher proportion of my reps are 'good'.
    - power seems to develop differently. in most other programmes, i get stronger, in terms of absolute weight i can move. but my tank gets progressively smaller as the workout goes on. with this one, it honestly felt like it grew. that took about half a cycle before i was feeling it, but by the time i was over the halfway mark i also started noticing that the workouts themselves would feel like i was picking up strength after i'd done the fourth set.
    - i did 'cheat' by doing the triples up front. just to get them out of the way :tongue: but now that i'm reflecting more on that previous point, i may go back to the implied patterning for this next go-round and tack them on from the last set 'forwards' instead.
    - i'm getting a lot of that very specific wow-this-is-heavy-but-i-totally-got-it feeling. hard to describe but if you've ever had it, you'll know what i mean.
    - also noted that my sticking points seem to be getting smoothed out. hey, a person can always hope.
    CarvedTones wrote: »
    So low impact but also no motions that might grind if your meniscus looks like Swiss cheese.

    ouch yes; cartilage isn't something i've had to fret about (yet). i'm not sure what the prognosis or options are for that, because inflammatory is more my zone than the osteo type.
  • middlehaitch
    middlehaitch Posts: 8,487 Member
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    Thanks for the feed back @canadianlbs.
    I'm sat writing it into my workout book and think I will make the switch next week.

    The progression is closer to AllPro than a 5x5, 5x3 so I am hoping that I will move over without much stress. I will probably enjoy not having the 2x12 day anymore. They were killing me, despite their infrequency.

    It says not to do accessory work too, but I am wondering if you do any.

    (You can PM me if you wish so we don't take the thread off topic.)

    Cheers, h.
  • CarvedTones
    CarvedTones Posts: 2,340 Member
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    VintageFeline wrote: »
    When you say tone, do you mean you want to look firmer? That's achieved by lowering body fat. In other words losing weight. Of course it also helps if you have decent lean mass under that fat too.

    I have been losing weight like a madman. Too quickly and that's why I need to tone up better. I have lost 32 pounds, from obese into just overweight. I can't tell you how quick because I got a warning for talking about unsafe dieting and a possible disorder. I plan to lose another 25, into the healthy range, but slower (like a sane human) and with exercise.
  • ashlee_g
    ashlee_g Posts: 20 Member
    edited November 2017
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    I have had arthroscopy on both knees. I love using an elliptical machine. I bought a commercial quality one second hand refurbished (Technogym Excite 700 Crosstrainer only $700 second hand 4yrs old). It is amazing. It gets my heart rate up, increasing my fitness and burning a lot of calories. I’ve lost almost 40 kilos so far. I can’t recommend it enough if you suffer from knee problems.
  • CarvedTones
    CarvedTones Posts: 2,340 Member
    edited November 2017
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    Ellipticals are nice and low impact. Congratulations on the weight loss! Having lost so much, you are no doubt aware that you lose far more in the kitchen than in the gym; you can't outrun your fork. Upping my calorie burn would be nice. I don't have space in the house or budget for an elliptical right now, though.
  • JoRocka
    JoRocka Posts: 17,525 Member
    edited November 2017
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    Also- I got my posters a little confused- but this very much applies to OP. Lots of limitations- go see a therapist and a professional.
    hyIianprincess wrote: »
    Chieflrg wrote: »
    hyIianprincess wrote: »
    I have arthritis too pretty much everywhere as well. I use therabands (not for long periods since gripping makes me stiff) and ankle/wrist weights. It's not a lot of resistance, but I feel like I've built a little bit of muscle. I would also suggest yoga or even pilates. Pilates was great, but I had to stop during my latest flare.

    Barbell training is more effective than therabands for stiff hands/fingers.

    You wouldn't build any muscle with bands though. Might notice a very slight strength gain though as you adapt to the resistance.

    I’m sure it does but I personally can’t due to being extremely hyper mobile. I have dislocations daily. I have to keep it light. But yeah, I haven’t noticed a significant amount of muscle from therabands, but that’s what my PT therapist is having me do


    You have a lot of limitations that go well beyond the scope of an internet forum.

    You have a therapist- use them- that's what they are there for.
  • Chieflrg
    Chieflrg Posts: 9,097 Member
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    JoRocka wrote: »
    Also- I got my posters a little confused- but this very much applies to OP. Lots of limitations- go see a therapist and a professional.
    hyIianprincess wrote: »
    Chieflrg wrote: »
    hyIianprincess wrote: »
    I have arthritis too pretty much everywhere as well. I use therabands (not for long periods since gripping makes me stiff) and ankle/wrist weights. It's not a lot of resistance, but I feel like I've built a little bit of muscle. I would also suggest yoga or even pilates. Pilates was great, but I had to stop during my latest flare.

    Barbell training is more effective than therabands for stiff hands/fingers.

    You wouldn't build any muscle with bands though. Might notice a very slight strength gain though as you adapt to the resistance.

    I’m sure it does but I personally can’t due to being extremely hyper mobile. I have dislocations daily. I have to keep it light. But yeah, I haven’t noticed a significant amount of muscle from therabands, but that’s what my PT therapist is having me do


    You have a lot of limitations that go well beyond the scope of an internet forum.

    You have a therapist- use them- that's what they are there for.


    I agree that a internet forum wouldnt be my first choice but neither would a therapist. Though it's unpopular believe a therapist who utilizes therabands and refuse to use barbell training(usually because they don't understand the benefits) are pretty worthless. This is the case far too often.

    Ever since switching back to barbell training, I've only dislocated twice in the past three years, opposed to every therapist session for months.

    I would advice a doctor who not only practices barbell training, but coaches it as well and has experience with this dx.
  • JoRocka
    JoRocka Posts: 17,525 Member
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    Chieflrg wrote: »
    JoRocka wrote: »
    Also- I got my posters a little confused- but this very much applies to OP. Lots of limitations- go see a therapist and a professional.
    hyIianprincess wrote: »
    Chieflrg wrote: »
    hyIianprincess wrote: »
    I have arthritis too pretty much everywhere as well. I use therabands (not for long periods since gripping makes me stiff) and ankle/wrist weights. It's not a lot of resistance, but I feel like I've built a little bit of muscle. I would also suggest yoga or even pilates. Pilates was great, but I had to stop during my latest flare.

    Barbell training is more effective than therabands for stiff hands/fingers.

    You wouldn't build any muscle with bands though. Might notice a very slight strength gain though as you adapt to the resistance.

    I’m sure it does but I personally can’t due to being extremely hyper mobile. I have dislocations daily. I have to keep it light. But yeah, I haven’t noticed a significant amount of muscle from therabands, but that’s what my PT therapist is having me do


    You have a lot of limitations that go well beyond the scope of an internet forum.

    You have a therapist- use them- that's what they are there for.


    I agree that a internet forum wouldnt be my first choice but neither would a therapist. Though it's unpopular believe a therapist who utilizes therabands and refuse to use barbell training(usually because they don't understand the benefits) are pretty worthless. This is the case far too often.

    Ever since switching back to barbell training, I've only dislocated twice in the past three years, opposed to every therapist session for months.

    I would advice a doctor who not only practices barbell training, but coaches it as well and has experience with this dx.

    Yes- I guess I would have assumed if someone had all these issues - the doctor would have been step one. And they would have said - go do X and Y.

    Which gets us to a physical therapist of some sort.

    But yes- that- go see specialist you can help- the more issues you have- and the more "well I can't b/c this- or that" the more you need someone specific and not us unwashed masses.
  • CarvedTones
    CarvedTones Posts: 2,340 Member
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    With my insurance, PT visits are about $90 a pop and @Chieflrg is right - therabands are about all they send you off with to do yourself. When I was getting post surgery shoulder PT they did do some barbell work but it was ultra light. @JoRocka also makes a good point but because the specialists don't always offer you everything, it is better to go in with some alternatives that are workable logistically and ask what is doable. But most don't want to give you much info unless they have been working with you a few se$$ions.
  • girlwithcurls2
    girlwithcurls2 Posts: 2,276 Member
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    Is swimming not a good option because you aren't "a swimmer," or you don't have access to a good pool? My community center offers aqua yoga as well as two kinds of cardio: deep and shallow. The deep is 0% impact. You could arrive early or stay late and use a kickboard to do a lap or two. For what it's worth, yoga in the water is really challenging.
  • CarvedTones
    CarvedTones Posts: 2,340 Member
    edited November 2017
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    girlwithcurls2 wrote: »
    Is swimming not a good option because you aren't "a swimmer," or you don't have access to a good pool? My community center offers aqua yoga as well as two kinds of cardio: deep and shallow. The deep is 0% impact. You could arrive early or stay late and use a kickboard to do a lap or two. For what it's worth, yoga in the water is really challenging.

    I swim like a fish. I have done mile swims before. It's an issue of access, money and time. I could afford to pay for access at the community pool, but then there are restricted hours and I would spend the better part of an hour driving both ways, changing, showering and changing back and I need to do something that takes me under an hour total. I could join a club that is much closer with much more availability as fas hours go but it is substantially more expensive and can get busy enough to make swimming a pain (I belonged for a little while on a trial offer).
  • BrianSharpe
    BrianSharpe Posts: 9,248 Member
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    This is going to sound harsh but, you seem to be better at making excuses why you can't do something rather than finding ways to do it.

    You agreed that an elliptical would probably work but then said you don't have space. Is there a gym you can join? Planet Fitness (everybody love to hate them around here..)is $10 a month, the YMCA is more expensive but they are always willing to work with someone if money is an issue.

    You said you swim like a fish but shot down the community pool based on hours and a gym based on cost. If you wanted it badly enough you'd find a way to make it work.
  • CarvedTones
    CarvedTones Posts: 2,340 Member
    edited November 2017
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    I probably should have stated in the original post that I mean something I can do at home, instead of dismissing suggestions that won't work for me at home individually. I have started doing some really light barbells and hope to carefully increase that to try and find a happy medium where I can work muscles enough to tone without causing inflammation. But I am still looking for suggestions as I am not convinced it is optimal.
  • BrianSharpe
    BrianSharpe Posts: 9,248 Member
    edited November 2017
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    CarvedTones wrote: »
    I probably should have stated in the original post that I mean something I can do at home, instead of dismissing suggestions that won't work for me at home individually. I have started doing some really light barbells and hope to carefully increase that to try and find a happy medium where I can work muscles enough to tone without causing inflammation. But I am still looking for suggestions as I am not convinced it is optimal.

    Fair enough, I guess building a pool in the basement would be impractical! :smiley:
  • CarvedTones
    CarvedTones Posts: 2,340 Member
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    BTW, the reason barbells feel "not optimal" to me is that using them carefully doesn't seem to be much exercise.
  • Chieflrg
    Chieflrg Posts: 9,097 Member
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    CarvedTones wrote: »
    BTW, the reason barbells feel "not optimal" to me is that using them carefully doesn't seem to be much exercise.

    But using barbells in a progressive fashion is "training" to make your muscle stronger which in turn will not only strengthen your joints, will cut down the intensity of flares and the stress thst is known to cause them.

    You might also note that "toning" is a marketing word to sell products and not actually a thing ypu can do.

    I strongly advice to train not exercise.
  • canadianlbs
    canadianlbs Posts: 5,199 Member
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    CarvedTones wrote: »
    using them carefully doesn't seem to be much exercise.

    being 'careful' and doing it often enough that the exact definition of 'care' becomes ingrained in your neuropatterning doesn't sound like it's optional for you. you got to work with whatever you've got.

    it's worth it. think of this as a long-term thing and this is the base coat. someone with a little leeway can probably do things wrongly (up to a specific point) without harming themselves permanently. but if there is an upside to not having that leeway, it's that you learn it right, right away.



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