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Exercise as a punishment in middle schoolers
Replies
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In the seventh grade we had to learn square dancing in gym class at the beginning of the year. After we moved on to other things (field hockey, rope climbing, obstacle courses, effing soccer).
If anyone misbehaved in gym class after they'd learned the square dancing, the teacher would call the offender to the head of the class and force them to show some square dancing moves while the teacher clapped rhythmically and called out "Now doe-see-doe without a partner!""Promenade head high!" and so forth. It was, like really embarrassing.
Would that have been okay with you guys or would you have written an angry letter to the principal?
As far as I know, no one in the class ever sought out square dancing again as a hobby or a pastime.
Correlative or causative?
Inspired work by your gym teacher. Marvelous.
Also he used to whistle at me when I wore tight pink pants.
Aaaaaand you ruined it.
What a creep4 -
In the seventh grade we had to learn square dancing in gym class at the beginning of the year. After we moved on to other things (field hockey, rope climbing, obstacle courses, effing soccer).
If anyone misbehaved in gym class after they'd learned the square dancing, the teacher would call the offender to the head of the class and force them to show some square dancing moves while the teacher clapped rhythmically and called out "Now doe-see-doe without a partner!""Promenade head high!" and so forth. It was, like really embarrassing.
Would that have been okay with you guys or would you have written an angry letter to the principal?
As far as I know, no one in the class ever sought out square dancing again as a hobby or a pastime.
Correlative or causative?
Inspired work by your gym teacher. Marvelous.
Also he used to whistle at me when I wore tight pink pants.
Aaaaaand you ruined it.
What a creep
He was trying to teach me a lesson about modesty. This was the seventies and a sense of decorum was still encouraged.
Still creepy, also regressive and misogynist as hell9 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »MsMaeFlowers wrote: »rheddmobile wrote: »I would like to note that I absolutely loathed PE class as a child, but was active and athletic outside of school. One didn't impact the other. In fact I was receiving zeroes for refusing to dress out in gym in the same year I was traveling to another country to participate in the Junior Olympics.
I also think that making a bunch of cheaters wall sit until they fall over sounds sort of funny. But I really really despise cheaters. Making the whole class endure punishment because of some individuals is inappropriate, lazy, and stupid, but par for the course for coaches, and is a good example of the sort of thing that made me loathe PE class and refuse to dress out.
This right here I agree with. I HATED PE as a child and a teenager. Fortunately in high school, my PE teacher never figured out that his punishments were never actually punishments. (Go sit on the sideline for the rest of class for not participating. Uh sure thing teach, thanks!)
I don't believe in punishing the whole class for the actions of the few. I don't have an issue with the punishment itself. Take away the fun game for cheating at it, and be forced to do the unfun stuff until you can prove you learned your lesson? That's absolutely fine by me, IF he/she wasn't including the students who did nothing wrong in the punishment. That would be far more effective IMO. The well behaved students get to continue doing fun activities while the cheaters clearly see what happens when they cheat. I would be more upset with the fact that the teacher is punishing the innocent students than the actual punishment itself.
re: the bolded section
While I hated this when I was child and it happened to me. I think it is one of the most effective punishments for children. When everyone in the class loses a privilege because of you, you tend to straighten up pretty quickly.
Often with the "help" of the other kids.1 -
Packerjohn wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »MsMaeFlowers wrote: »rheddmobile wrote: »I would like to note that I absolutely loathed PE class as a child, but was active and athletic outside of school. One didn't impact the other. In fact I was receiving zeroes for refusing to dress out in gym in the same year I was traveling to another country to participate in the Junior Olympics.
I also think that making a bunch of cheaters wall sit until they fall over sounds sort of funny. But I really really despise cheaters. Making the whole class endure punishment because of some individuals is inappropriate, lazy, and stupid, but par for the course for coaches, and is a good example of the sort of thing that made me loathe PE class and refuse to dress out.
This right here I agree with. I HATED PE as a child and a teenager. Fortunately in high school, my PE teacher never figured out that his punishments were never actually punishments. (Go sit on the sideline for the rest of class for not participating. Uh sure thing teach, thanks!)
I don't believe in punishing the whole class for the actions of the few. I don't have an issue with the punishment itself. Take away the fun game for cheating at it, and be forced to do the unfun stuff until you can prove you learned your lesson? That's absolutely fine by me, IF he/she wasn't including the students who did nothing wrong in the punishment. That would be far more effective IMO. The well behaved students get to continue doing fun activities while the cheaters clearly see what happens when they cheat. I would be more upset with the fact that the teacher is punishing the innocent students than the actual punishment itself.
re: the bolded section
While I hated this when I was child and it happened to me. I think it is one of the most effective punishments for children. When everyone in the class loses a privilege because of you, you tend to straighten up pretty quickly.
Often with the "help" of the other kids.
Oh yeah. Nothing like the fiery scorn of other kids you screwed over.2 -
In the seventh grade we had to learn square dancing in gym class at the beginning of the year. After we moved on to other things (field hockey, rope climbing, obstacle courses, effing soccer).
If anyone misbehaved in gym class after they'd learned the square dancing, the teacher would call the offender to the head of the class and force them to show some square dancing moves while the teacher clapped rhythmically and called out "Now doe-see-doe without a partner!""Promenade head high!" and so forth. It was, like really embarrassing.
Would that have been okay with you guys or would you have written an angry letter to the principal?
As far as I know, no one in the class ever sought out square dancing again as a hobby or a pastime.
Correlative or causative?
Inspired work by your gym teacher. Marvelous.
Also he used to whistle at me when I wore tight pink pants.
Aaaaaand you ruined it.
What a creep
He was trying to teach me a lesson about modesty. This was the seventies and a sense of decorum was still encouraged.
In the 70's? The time of mini skirts and tube tops and halter tops with low rider bell bottoms? The time of jeans so tight you had to lay on the bed to zip them?0 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »In the seventh grade we had to learn square dancing in gym class at the beginning of the year. After we moved on to other things (field hockey, rope climbing, obstacle courses, effing soccer).
If anyone misbehaved in gym class after they'd learned the square dancing, the teacher would call the offender to the head of the class and force them to show some square dancing moves while the teacher clapped rhythmically and called out "Now doe-see-doe without a partner!""Promenade head high!" and so forth. It was, like really embarrassing.
Would that have been okay with you guys or would you have written an angry letter to the principal?
As far as I know, no one in the class ever sought out square dancing again as a hobby or a pastime.
Correlative or causative?
Inspired work by your gym teacher. Marvelous.
Also he used to whistle at me when I wore tight pink pants.
Aaaaaand you ruined it.
What a creep
He was trying to teach me a lesson about modesty. This was the seventies and a sense of decorum was still encouraged.
In the 70's? The time of mini skirts and tube tops and halter tops with low rider bell bottoms? The time of jeans so tight you had to lay on the bed to zip them?
I know. I really thought it was okay. But he was a man from a different era with his own ideas about what 12 year olds should wear to gym class. I still thought I was at all girls summer camp and he corrected me.
You were lucky to have a choice. In the 70's we had to wear a 'uniform' for gym class. It was just a white t-shirt with shorts in the school colors, but if you didn't have them you sat out and got an demerit for the day.1 -
Exercise has always been used as a punishment for me or my era growing up - even in sports. If we f'd up, we had to run laps, do push ups, jumping jacks, or some other ish. It made us get our act together, bonded us, made us think of each other as a team.
I just think I am from a different era. Everything is so sensitive now. I don't get it. Life isn't that way (all the time)- it's not always nice & kind and I think we are setting people up for failure for them to think everything is.
2 -
stanmann571 wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »NorthCascades wrote: »What else would people be doing in gym if not exercising?
I assume its the difference between playing a sport the kids enjoy and doing push-ups and sit-ups which the kids do not enjoy.
Withdrawal of privilege is not punishment.
Playing fun sports is a privilege. By acting out, they lost that privilege. Since PE/gym class is where physical activity happens, going to a more regimented less fun activity is not punishment, it's appropriate teaching of consequence.
It's the difference between a pop quiz and playing Jeopardy in History/Science class. The material is still being evaluated, one method is just less fun. Playing Jeopardy is a reward, but the material has to be tested... so the pop quiz isn't a punishment.
And honestly, Doing less fun activity is less fun for the instructor as well as the students.
Ok - this is what I meant to say - word for word! Yessssssssssssss!0 -
My daughter came home the other day (11yrs old, 6th grade) and said that since they didn't follow the rules Friday last week in gym they are only going to be doing exercises--bodyweight stuff--for the rest of the year or until they can prove they can listen and follow rules.
While I agree they need to be given some kind of repercussion for not following the rules I do not think that exercises as a "punishment" is the healthy way to go. Not that working out is bad for them but because they are being taught that working out is a punishment for being bad/not following the rules. With obesity issues all over I think it is better to foster a positive relationship with exercising, not a negative one.
What do you think about using exercising in school PE class as a punishment? Any alternatives you recommend instead if you don't agree with it?
Great discussion topic by the way!0 -
Aaron_K123 wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »I have two children, currently young enough that they are not yet in school. When they do attend school I hope that the school they attend has teachers that are empowered with the ability to provide disciplinary action. They shouldn't be allowed to hit children or lock them in solitary but they certainly should be able to make them run some laps if they mouth off in gym class I mean come on.
I want my children to be resilient because the real world requires resilience. I want them to have discipline because being disciplined is how you become an effective adult. How are they going to become resilient if they aren't made to cope with situations that make them uncomfortable? How are they going to become disciplined if they cannot be punished for misbehavior? If there is an opportunity to discipline them for misbehavior in a way that is actually beneficial to their health while introducing a level of discomfort they then have to cope with then thumbs high up from me.
If we protect them all throughout school years from any sort of discomfort how are they going to survive the inevitable kick to the gut that real life will be giving them at some point. Are we protecting them or are we protecting ourselves because we don't like to see them uncomfortable or upset? Am I really that crazy?
Here's the last thing I'm going to say on this subject. To my mind, this discussion isn't about discipline, or teachers having authority in the classroom, or children being resilient, or protecting children from real-world consequences.
Who is saying that children should be "protect[ed] ... from any sort of discomfort" anyway? If you're claiming that I'm arguing this, then you are incorrect. It's maddening to me that I'm being interpreted this way. I listed multiple options for disciplining students, and one of my options was even to change the coursework for a few days! How would the options that I presented, including conferences, extra homework, and the like, count as "shielding them from situations that make them uncomfortable"? How did my listing multiple punishments somehow come to mean they "cannot be punished for their misbehavior"?
I've got 4 sons who are all fine young men, including 2 Eagle Scouts. We've dealt with many teachers and many situations. I don't think I've ever complained about discipline any teacher used on any of my sons.
This discussion is, as stated in the OP, should exercise be used as punishment? I still say no. It will make some children (not all, as many of you have pointed out) hate exercise. I've seen it in myself and in many of my friends and family. It's counterproductive toward the goal of making young people enjoy and appreciate exercise, and I doubt its efficacy as a punishment.
Alright fair enough I don't want to mischaracterize you and I certainly don't want to have some sort of parent-off about who has the better guiding principles for their children.
Out of curiosity if a student was goofing off in math class, passing notes...being disrespectful. Do you think it would be appropriate if the teacher took away their notepad that they were using for passing notes and put in front of them a pop-quiz of math problems and instructed the student to complete it by end of class? Or would you view that as inappropriately using math as punishment in a way that would turn the student away from math in the future?
I said I was done with the topic, and have been slammed the last day or so at work. I'm pleased that the conversation has remained interesting, although my position appears to be in the minority.
But since you asked the question I have a few perspectives:
1. In fact, I'm not opposed to exercise ipso facto as a punishment. It can be unpleasant, as all of us can attest. Rather, my concern on this issue is based on a social need. Does anyone question that we have a social problem with fitness and weight management in the western world? I think you personally argued in a thread a few days ago that we have a distinct social need to address the problem of obesity.
My thought is that PE should be teaching kids to enjoy fitness and find lifetime activities that they will continue to do as adults to help them stay active. That is what our children's PE teachers have told us is explicitly one of their aims. Using exercise as punishment is diametrically opposed to this aim. Something that is a punishment is something to be avoided. I think this is the motivation behind the SHAPE papers I posted earlier.
Few adults need to be active for their career or daily success, however, and this is where math class is different. Adults need math to function properly in the world, and I posit that making kids love and enjoy math is not a typical aim of the math teacher. Math is already punishment for some students! For me, a pop quiz would have hardly been a punishment! Here is a historical recreation of me in 6th grade:
2. Part of my strong reaction to this thread has come from the implied threat that this change will be a permanent change to the class, barring of course that the students somehow can demonstrate that they can behave. Every parent recognizes that kind of threat, but I personally think it's unprofessional to threaten such a thing. As I have suggested before, the threat here isn't equivalent to a one-day pop quiz. The threat is more like pop quizzes every day, with no other learning. It's a threat, to be sure, and there's no way the teacher will actually do it. But should teachers be doing that kind of thing? Don't empty threats undermine authority?
3. I'm strongly opposed to collective punishment for children. Even if it's effective at getting the desired behavior and getting troublemakers in line, it's unfair and breeds resentment. I was a good kid and pretty much always behaved. I can't recall how many times I was punished because of others' misdeeds. And because I was fairly shy and nonaggressive, I didn't take any action against the troublemakers, many of whom were bullies and didn't give a rat's @ss about whether they were punished or not.
I strongly recall a time in 6th grade when we were taking some kind of preparatory test for a spelling bee. I was kind of excited about it and was rocking the test. But some of the kids were acting up, and the teacher finally got frustrated. She yelled at the class, and then angrily told us that no one would be entering the spelling bee. Because (some of) the class was misbehaving, was it right for her to punish us like that? Was that professional? I still remember this 40 years later.
4. I'm a little surprised by those on this thread who said they would never question a teacher's judgement. Can you not imagine a situation where you would have to intervene or contact a teacher? Have you never asked for clarification on an assignment, or been concerned with how much homework they have? Have you not advocated for your gifted child to get an accelerated reading group, or been concerned that your child isn't understanding a topic? What do you do at parent-teacher conferences? My mom was a teacher, and we have many friends who are teachers, and we are friendly with many of our kids' teachers. They're not perfect - they have flaws and weaknesses like everyone else. As parents, we (as advocates for our children) are their customers.
My eldest struggled with math in high school, to the point of tears. And tears from a 17-year-old boy over math homework are very unpleasant indeed. Math is a second language to me, and I spent many hours working with him. Mrs Jruzer and I were concerned about the choice or curriculum that was being used in the school, and met with more than one teacher to express our concerns. Should we have just let him struggle? And as it turned out, the very year after he graduated the school jettisoned that curriculum, because it did in fact suck. It was chosen because it fit the previous principal's philosophy of math education, not because it was actually effective. Parent complaints were key to rejecting the poor material - we weren't alone in our complaints. And surprise! Our son took an introductory calculus class in college, and did fine there because it was taught better.
5. I'm surprised that I didn't think of this before - cheating usually is something that is covered under school policies, right? Why wouldn't students receive failing grades for their misbehavior?
6. I have to laugh at the responses that say how all the kids are so soft nowadays. I was paddled a few times in school, and in fact I think I benefited more from that than I did from collective punishments. I was paddled for what I did wrong, not for what everyone did wrong. And I was punished with something that was genuinely painful. I don't have any love for the teacher who did it -- he was an unpleasant person in many ways -- but I did straighten up. I imagine it would be very unpopular, but I'd actually prefer a little backside- or wrist-swatting to forced exercise as a punishment.
Now I really am done. Happy Friday, everyone!
Here's me now:
2 -
In the seventh grade we had to learn square dancing in gym class at the beginning of the year. After we moved on to other things (field hockey, rope climbing, obstacle courses, effing soccer).
If anyone misbehaved in gym class after they'd learned the square dancing, the teacher would call the offender to the head of the class and force them to show some square dancing moves while the teacher clapped rhythmically and called out "Now doe-see-doe without a partner!""Promenade head high!" and so forth. It was, like really embarrassing.
Would that have been okay with you guys or would you have written an angry letter to the principal?
As far as I know, no one in the class ever sought out square dancing again as a hobby or a pastime.
Correlative or causative?
Inspired work by your gym teacher. Marvelous.
Also he used to whistle at me when I wore tight pink pants.
Aaaaaand you ruined it.
What a creep
He was trying to teach me a lesson about modesty. This was the seventies and a sense of decorum was still encouraged.
Still creepy, also regressive and misogynist as hell
I'd leave the judgement about whether it was creepy or misogynist up to the recipient of the comments rather than the person who read a sentence about it 40 years later.2 -
Aaron_K123 wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »I have two children, currently young enough that they are not yet in school. When they do attend school I hope that the school they attend has teachers that are empowered with the ability to provide disciplinary action. They shouldn't be allowed to hit children or lock them in solitary but they certainly should be able to make them run some laps if they mouth off in gym class I mean come on.
I want my children to be resilient because the real world requires resilience. I want them to have discipline because being disciplined is how you become an effective adult. How are they going to become resilient if they aren't made to cope with situations that make them uncomfortable? How are they going to become disciplined if they cannot be punished for misbehavior? If there is an opportunity to discipline them for misbehavior in a way that is actually beneficial to their health while introducing a level of discomfort they then have to cope with then thumbs high up from me.
If we protect them all throughout school years from any sort of discomfort how are they going to survive the inevitable kick to the gut that real life will be giving them at some point. Are we protecting them or are we protecting ourselves because we don't like to see them uncomfortable or upset? Am I really that crazy?
Here's the last thing I'm going to say on this subject. To my mind, this discussion isn't about discipline, or teachers having authority in the classroom, or children being resilient, or protecting children from real-world consequences.
Who is saying that children should be "protect[ed] ... from any sort of discomfort" anyway? If you're claiming that I'm arguing this, then you are incorrect. It's maddening to me that I'm being interpreted this way. I listed multiple options for disciplining students, and one of my options was even to change the coursework for a few days! How would the options that I presented, including conferences, extra homework, and the like, count as "shielding them from situations that make them uncomfortable"? How did my listing multiple punishments somehow come to mean they "cannot be punished for their misbehavior"?
I've got 4 sons who are all fine young men, including 2 Eagle Scouts. We've dealt with many teachers and many situations. I don't think I've ever complained about discipline any teacher used on any of my sons.
This discussion is, as stated in the OP, should exercise be used as punishment? I still say no. It will make some children (not all, as many of you have pointed out) hate exercise. I've seen it in myself and in many of my friends and family. It's counterproductive toward the goal of making young people enjoy and appreciate exercise, and I doubt its efficacy as a punishment.
Alright fair enough I don't want to mischaracterize you and I certainly don't want to have some sort of parent-off about who has the better guiding principles for their children.
Out of curiosity if a student was goofing off in math class, passing notes...being disrespectful. Do you think it would be appropriate if the teacher took away their notepad that they were using for passing notes and put in front of them a pop-quiz of math problems and instructed the student to complete it by end of class? Or would you view that as inappropriately using math as punishment in a way that would turn the student away from math in the future?
I said I was done with the topic, and have been slammed the last day or so at work. I'm pleased that the conversation has remained interesting, although my position appears to be in the minority.
But since you asked the question I have a few perspectives:
1. In fact, I'm not opposed to exercise ipso facto as a punishment. It can be unpleasant, as all of us can attest. Rather, my concern on this issue is based on a social need. Does anyone question that we have a social problem with fitness and weight management in the western world? I think you personally argued in a thread a few days ago that we have a distinct social need to address the problem of obesity.
My thought is that PE should be teaching kids to enjoy fitness and find lifetime activities that they will continue to do as adults to help them stay active. That is what our children's PE teachers have told us is explicitly one of their aims. Using exercise as punishment is diametrically opposed to this aim. Something that is a punishment is something to be avoided. I think this is the motivation behind the SHAPE papers I posted earlier.
Few adults need to be active for their career or daily success, however, and this is where math class is different. Adults need math to function properly in the world, and I posit that making kids love and enjoy math is not a typical aim of the math teacher. Math is already punishment for some students! For me, a pop quiz would have hardly been a punishment! Here is a historical recreation of me in 6th grade:
2. Part of my strong reaction to this thread has come from the implied threat that this change will be a permanent change to the class, barring of course that the students somehow can demonstrate that they can behave. Every parent recognizes that kind of threat, but I personally think it's unprofessional to threaten such a thing. As I have suggested before, the threat here isn't equivalent to a one-day pop quiz. The threat is more like pop quizzes every day, with no other learning. It's a threat, to be sure, and there's no way the teacher will actually do it. But should teachers be doing that kind of thing? Don't empty threats undermine authority?
3. I'm strongly opposed to collective punishment for children. Even if it's effective at getting the desired behavior and getting troublemakers in line, it's unfair and breeds resentment. I was a good kid and pretty much always behaved. I can't recall how many times I was punished because of others' misdeeds. And because I was fairly shy and nonaggressive, I didn't take any action against the troublemakers, many of whom were bullies and didn't give a rat's @ss about whether they were punished or not.
I strongly recall a time in 6th grade when we were taking some kind of preparatory test for a spelling bee. I was kind of excited about it and was rocking the test. But some of the kids were acting up, and the teacher finally got frustrated. She yelled at the class, and then angrily told us that no one would be entering the spelling bee. Because (some of) the class was misbehaving, was it right for her to punish us like that? Was that professional? I still remember this 40 years later.
4. I'm a little surprised by those on this thread who said they would never question a teacher's judgement. Can you not imagine a situation where you would have to intervene or contact a teacher? Have you never asked for clarification on an assignment, or been concerned with how much homework they have? Have you not advocated for your gifted child to get an accelerated reading group, or been concerned that your child isn't understanding a topic? What do you do at parent-teacher conferences? My mom was a teacher, and we have many friends who are teachers, and we are friendly with many of our kids' teachers. They're not perfect - they have flaws and weaknesses like everyone else. As parents, we (as advocates for our children) are their customers.
My eldest struggled with math in high school, to the point of tears. And tears from a 17-year-old boy over math homework are very unpleasant indeed. Math is a second language to me, and I spent many hours working with him. Mrs Jruzer and I were concerned about the choice or curriculum that was being used in the school, and met with more than one teacher to express our concerns. Should we have just let him struggle? And as it turned out, the very year after he graduated the school jettisoned that curriculum, because it did in fact suck. It was chosen because it fit the previous principal's philosophy of math education, not because it was actually effective. Parent complaints were key to rejecting the poor material - we weren't alone in our complaints. And surprise! Our son took an introductory calculus class in college, and did fine there because it was taught better.
5. I'm surprised that I didn't think of this before - cheating usually is something that is covered under school policies, right? Why wouldn't students receive failing grades for their misbehavior?
6. I have to laugh at the responses that say how all the kids are so soft nowadays. I was paddled a few times in school, and in fact I think I benefited more from that than I did from collective punishments. I was paddled for what I did wrong, not for what everyone did wrong. And I was punished with something that was genuinely painful. I don't have any love for the teacher who did it -- he was an unpleasant person in many ways -- but I did straighten up. I imagine it would be very unpopular, but I'd actually prefer a little backside- or wrist-swatting to forced exercise as a punishment.
Now I really am done. Happy Friday, everyone!
Here's me now:
Holy TL:DR Batman!! ::noway::1 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »I have two children, currently young enough that they are not yet in school. When they do attend school I hope that the school they attend has teachers that are empowered with the ability to provide disciplinary action. They shouldn't be allowed to hit children or lock them in solitary but they certainly should be able to make them run some laps if they mouth off in gym class I mean come on.
I want my children to be resilient because the real world requires resilience. I want them to have discipline because being disciplined is how you become an effective adult. How are they going to become resilient if they aren't made to cope with situations that make them uncomfortable? How are they going to become disciplined if they cannot be punished for misbehavior? If there is an opportunity to discipline them for misbehavior in a way that is actually beneficial to their health while introducing a level of discomfort they then have to cope with then thumbs high up from me.
If we protect them all throughout school years from any sort of discomfort how are they going to survive the inevitable kick to the gut that real life will be giving them at some point. Are we protecting them or are we protecting ourselves because we don't like to see them uncomfortable or upset? Am I really that crazy?
Here's the last thing I'm going to say on this subject. To my mind, this discussion isn't about discipline, or teachers having authority in the classroom, or children being resilient, or protecting children from real-world consequences.
Who is saying that children should be "protect[ed] ... from any sort of discomfort" anyway? If you're claiming that I'm arguing this, then you are incorrect. It's maddening to me that I'm being interpreted this way. I listed multiple options for disciplining students, and one of my options was even to change the coursework for a few days! How would the options that I presented, including conferences, extra homework, and the like, count as "shielding them from situations that make them uncomfortable"? How did my listing multiple punishments somehow come to mean they "cannot be punished for their misbehavior"?
I've got 4 sons who are all fine young men, including 2 Eagle Scouts. We've dealt with many teachers and many situations. I don't think I've ever complained about discipline any teacher used on any of my sons.
This discussion is, as stated in the OP, should exercise be used as punishment? I still say no. It will make some children (not all, as many of you have pointed out) hate exercise. I've seen it in myself and in many of my friends and family. It's counterproductive toward the goal of making young people enjoy and appreciate exercise, and I doubt its efficacy as a punishment.
Alright fair enough I don't want to mischaracterize you and I certainly don't want to have some sort of parent-off about who has the better guiding principles for their children.
Out of curiosity if a student was goofing off in math class, passing notes...being disrespectful. Do you think it would be appropriate if the teacher took away their notepad that they were using for passing notes and put in front of them a pop-quiz of math problems and instructed the student to complete it by end of class? Or would you view that as inappropriately using math as punishment in a way that would turn the student away from math in the future?
I said I was done with the topic, and have been slammed the last day or so at work. I'm pleased that the conversation has remained interesting, although my position appears to be in the minority.
But since you asked the question I have a few perspectives:
1. In fact, I'm not opposed to exercise ipso facto as a punishment. It can be unpleasant, as all of us can attest. Rather, my concern on this issue is based on a social need. Does anyone question that we have a social problem with fitness and weight management in the western world? I think you personally argued in a thread a few days ago that we have a distinct social need to address the problem of obesity.
My thought is that PE should be teaching kids to enjoy fitness and find lifetime activities that they will continue to do as adults to help them stay active. That is what our children's PE teachers have told us is explicitly one of their aims. Using exercise as punishment is diametrically opposed to this aim. Something that is a punishment is something to be avoided. I think this is the motivation behind the SHAPE papers I posted earlier.
Few adults need to be active for their career or daily success, however, and this is where math class is different. Adults need math to function properly in the world, and I posit that making kids love and enjoy math is not a typical aim of the math teacher. Math is already punishment for some students! For me, a pop quiz would have hardly been a punishment! Here is a historical recreation of me in 6th grade:
2. Part of my strong reaction to this thread has come from the implied threat that this change will be a permanent change to the class, barring of course that the students somehow can demonstrate that they can behave. Every parent recognizes that kind of threat, but I personally think it's unprofessional to threaten such a thing. As I have suggested before, the threat here isn't equivalent to a one-day pop quiz. The threat is more like pop quizzes every day, with no other learning. It's a threat, to be sure, and there's no way the teacher will actually do it. But should teachers be doing that kind of thing? Don't empty threats undermine authority?
3. I'm strongly opposed to collective punishment for children. Even if it's effective at getting the desired behavior and getting troublemakers in line, it's unfair and breeds resentment. I was a good kid and pretty much always behaved. I can't recall how many times I was punished because of others' misdeeds. And because I was fairly shy and nonaggressive, I didn't take any action against the troublemakers, many of whom were bullies and didn't give a rat's @ss about whether they were punished or not.
I strongly recall a time in 6th grade when we were taking some kind of preparatory test for a spelling bee. I was kind of excited about it and was rocking the test. But some of the kids were acting up, and the teacher finally got frustrated. She yelled at the class, and then angrily told us that no one would be entering the spelling bee. Because (some of) the class was misbehaving, was it right for her to punish us like that? Was that professional? I still remember this 40 years later.
4. I'm a little surprised by those on this thread who said they would never question a teacher's judgement. Can you not imagine a situation where you would have to intervene or contact a teacher? Have you never asked for clarification on an assignment, or been concerned with how much homework they have? Have you not advocated for your gifted child to get an accelerated reading group, or been concerned that your child isn't understanding a topic? What do you do at parent-teacher conferences? My mom was a teacher, and we have many friends who are teachers, and we are friendly with many of our kids' teachers. They're not perfect - they have flaws and weaknesses like everyone else. As parents, we (as advocates for our children) are their customers.
My eldest struggled with math in high school, to the point of tears. And tears from a 17-year-old boy over math homework are very unpleasant indeed. Math is a second language to me, and I spent many hours working with him. Mrs Jruzer and I were concerned about the choice or curriculum that was being used in the school, and met with more than one teacher to express our concerns. Should we have just let him struggle? And as it turned out, the very year after he graduated the school jettisoned that curriculum, because it did in fact suck. It was chosen because it fit the previous principal's philosophy of math education, not because it was actually effective. Parent complaints were key to rejecting the poor material - we weren't alone in our complaints. And surprise! Our son took an introductory calculus class in college, and did fine there because it was taught better.
5. I'm surprised that I didn't think of this before - cheating usually is something that is covered under school policies, right? Why wouldn't students receive failing grades for their misbehavior?
6. I have to laugh at the responses that say how all the kids are so soft nowadays. I was paddled a few times in school, and in fact I think I benefited more from that than I did from collective punishments. I was paddled for what I did wrong, not for what everyone did wrong. And I was punished with something that was genuinely painful. I don't have any love for the teacher who did it -- he was an unpleasant person in many ways -- but I did straighten up. I imagine it would be very unpopular, but I'd actually prefer a little backside- or wrist-swatting to forced exercise as a punishment.
Now I really am done. Happy Friday, everyone!
Here's me now:
Holy TL:DR Batman!! ::noway::
Mazel tov.0 -
On #3: it depends. the group activity may have been more unpleasant and useless for those following the rules than the resulting calisthenics. If, for instance, 80% of the group were just running amok and you weren't actually getting to do the activity anyway/you were being constantly pelted in the face by balls/the activity was constantly having to be interrupted by the teacher for everyone's shenanigans. It may have just been a little cheating here and there, or it may have been a complete clusterf*ck of wild animals run amok.1
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youngmomtaz wrote: »This isn't punishment, but a corrective and instructive measure. Military forces have this ingrained throughout their lives:
Not paying attention? 20 pushups
Last man in line? 20 pushups
Fall asleep in class? 20 pushups
My 9 year old son gets corrected for not paying attention in baseball and the team runs laps.
Punishment on the other hand incorporates an element of retribution.
Except that elementary school kids in gym class are not on a team and are not in the military. They are supposed to be getting educated along with participating in physical activity. This removes the education aspect in favor of a retributive measure. Athletic kids will do fine and probably will blow it off as easy, while the less athletic kids will be the ones who will find it miserable. Perhaps some of those kids will develop a distaste for exercise as a result. Maybe it will take them decades to develop a taste for it.
Ask me how I know.
And some people are the exact opposite. I have zero depth perception, and poor coordination. Having the teacher make us do “less fun” things, that unfortunately never dominate a PE class, was amazing for me. I found out I was strong, fast, and in non team sports could excell. I loved when someone misbehaved and we had to do less fun things! So this removal of priveledge could totally remind the less team focussed kids that exercise can be great and we can edit out being the last kid chosen for the team.
I had PE every year from when I started school until I graduated high school. I don't ever remember being punished with exercises. I do remember how horrible the group games were. I often got injured or was made to feel bad for being uncoordinated or slower. Glasses just seem to be a magnet for balls to the face as well. Games in PE were nightmares. PE did not foster a lifelong love of fitness. I loathed PE. I loved sedentary and solitary activities. The good days were days we had to walk or run around the track or just do exercises.
I'm sure some kids are sad not to play games in PE. I don't think it will really change how kids who don't love physical activity feel about it to exercise though they might feel relieved to not be doing games.6 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »I have two children, currently young enough that they are not yet in school. When they do attend school I hope that the school they attend has teachers that are empowered with the ability to provide disciplinary action. They shouldn't be allowed to hit children or lock them in solitary but they certainly should be able to make them run some laps if they mouth off in gym class I mean come on.
I want my children to be resilient because the real world requires resilience. I want them to have discipline because being disciplined is how you become an effective adult. How are they going to become resilient if they aren't made to cope with situations that make them uncomfortable? How are they going to become disciplined if they cannot be punished for misbehavior? If there is an opportunity to discipline them for misbehavior in a way that is actually beneficial to their health while introducing a level of discomfort they then have to cope with then thumbs high up from me.
If we protect them all throughout school years from any sort of discomfort how are they going to survive the inevitable kick to the gut that real life will be giving them at some point. Are we protecting them or are we protecting ourselves because we don't like to see them uncomfortable or upset? Am I really that crazy?
Here's the last thing I'm going to say on this subject. To my mind, this discussion isn't about discipline, or teachers having authority in the classroom, or children being resilient, or protecting children from real-world consequences.
Who is saying that children should be "protect[ed] ... from any sort of discomfort" anyway? If you're claiming that I'm arguing this, then you are incorrect. It's maddening to me that I'm being interpreted this way. I listed multiple options for disciplining students, and one of my options was even to change the coursework for a few days! How would the options that I presented, including conferences, extra homework, and the like, count as "shielding them from situations that make them uncomfortable"? How did my listing multiple punishments somehow come to mean they "cannot be punished for their misbehavior"?
I've got 4 sons who are all fine young men, including 2 Eagle Scouts. We've dealt with many teachers and many situations. I don't think I've ever complained about discipline any teacher used on any of my sons.
This discussion is, as stated in the OP, should exercise be used as punishment? I still say no. It will make some children (not all, as many of you have pointed out) hate exercise. I've seen it in myself and in many of my friends and family. It's counterproductive toward the goal of making young people enjoy and appreciate exercise, and I doubt its efficacy as a punishment.
Alright fair enough I don't want to mischaracterize you and I certainly don't want to have some sort of parent-off about who has the better guiding principles for their children.
Out of curiosity if a student was goofing off in math class, passing notes...being disrespectful. Do you think it would be appropriate if the teacher took away their notepad that they were using for passing notes and put in front of them a pop-quiz of math problems and instructed the student to complete it by end of class? Or would you view that as inappropriately using math as punishment in a way that would turn the student away from math in the future?
I said I was done with the topic, and have been slammed the last day or so at work. I'm pleased that the conversation has remained interesting, although my position appears to be in the minority.
But since you asked the question I have a few perspectives:
1. In fact, I'm not opposed to exercise ipso facto as a punishment. It can be unpleasant, as all of us can attest. Rather, my concern on this issue is based on a social need. Does anyone question that we have a social problem with fitness and weight management in the western world? I think you personally argued in a thread a few days ago that we have a distinct social need to address the problem of obesity.
My thought is that PE should be teaching kids to enjoy fitness and find lifetime activities that they will continue to do as adults to help them stay active. That is what our children's PE teachers have told us is explicitly one of their aims. Using exercise as punishment is diametrically opposed to this aim. Something that is a punishment is something to be avoided. I think this is the motivation behind the SHAPE papers I posted earlier.
Few adults need to be active for their career or daily success, however, and this is where math class is different. Adults need math to function properly in the world, and I posit that making kids love and enjoy math is not a typical aim of the math teacher. Math is already punishment for some students! For me, a pop quiz would have hardly been a punishment! Here is a historical recreation of me in 6th grade:
2. Part of my strong reaction to this thread has come from the implied threat that this change will be a permanent change to the class, barring of course that the students somehow can demonstrate that they can behave. Every parent recognizes that kind of threat, but I personally think it's unprofessional to threaten such a thing. As I have suggested before, the threat here isn't equivalent to a one-day pop quiz. The threat is more like pop quizzes every day, with no other learning. It's a threat, to be sure, and there's no way the teacher will actually do it. But should teachers be doing that kind of thing? Don't empty threats undermine authority?
3. I'm strongly opposed to collective punishment for children. Even if it's effective at getting the desired behavior and getting troublemakers in line, it's unfair and breeds resentment. I was a good kid and pretty much always behaved. I can't recall how many times I was punished because of others' misdeeds. And because I was fairly shy and nonaggressive, I didn't take any action against the troublemakers, many of whom were bullies and didn't give a rat's @ss about whether they were punished or not.
I strongly recall a time in 6th grade when we were taking some kind of preparatory test for a spelling bee. I was kind of excited about it and was rocking the test. But some of the kids were acting up, and the teacher finally got frustrated. She yelled at the class, and then angrily told us that no one would be entering the spelling bee. Because (some of) the class was misbehaving, was it right for her to punish us like that? Was that professional? I still remember this 40 years later.
4. I'm a little surprised by those on this thread who said they would never question a teacher's judgement. Can you not imagine a situation where you would have to intervene or contact a teacher? Have you never asked for clarification on an assignment, or been concerned with how much homework they have? Have you not advocated for your gifted child to get an accelerated reading group, or been concerned that your child isn't understanding a topic? What do you do at parent-teacher conferences? My mom was a teacher, and we have many friends who are teachers, and we are friendly with many of our kids' teachers. They're not perfect - they have flaws and weaknesses like everyone else. As parents, we (as advocates for our children) are their customers.
My eldest struggled with math in high school, to the point of tears. And tears from a 17-year-old boy over math homework are very unpleasant indeed. Math is a second language to me, and I spent many hours working with him. Mrs Jruzer and I were concerned about the choice or curriculum that was being used in the school, and met with more than one teacher to express our concerns. Should we have just let him struggle? And as it turned out, the very year after he graduated the school jettisoned that curriculum, because it did in fact suck. It was chosen because it fit the previous principal's philosophy of math education, not because it was actually effective. Parent complaints were key to rejecting the poor material - we weren't alone in our complaints. And surprise! Our son took an introductory calculus class in college, and did fine there because it was taught better.
5. I'm surprised that I didn't think of this before - cheating usually is something that is covered under school policies, right? Why wouldn't students receive failing grades for their misbehavior?
6. I have to laugh at the responses that say how all the kids are so soft nowadays. I was paddled a few times in school, and in fact I think I benefited more from that than I did from collective punishments. I was paddled for what I did wrong, not for what everyone did wrong. And I was punished with something that was genuinely painful. I don't have any love for the teacher who did it -- he was an unpleasant person in many ways -- but I did straighten up. I imagine it would be very unpopular, but I'd actually prefer a little backside- or wrist-swatting to forced exercise as a punishment.
Now I really am done. Happy Friday, everyone!
Here's me now:
Holy TL:DR Batman!! ::noway::
Mazel tov.
I'll admit I read fully for a bit but eventually I skimmed. Honestly I think you make strong points and you have clearly thought this through. It might seem like a cop-out but I think both viewpoints on this issue have validity and its hard to know what the outcome would be for any individual kid. Some might take that "punishment" and learn to love body weight exercises, others might be turned off it for life...that is possible. I'd say I'm certainly not unwilling to go after a teacher in certain circumstances I just feel like I shouldn't for minor things simply because they have a tough job and if every parent comes to them with every minor complaint it would be overwhelming especially considering it is inevitable that those complaints won't have a solution that will satisfy all of them. Where that line is will vary person to person. For me personally I wouldn't be bothered by this "punishment" for my child while others might be. I can respect that, I just am saying how I feel not trying to argue that everyone must feel the way I do.2 -
deannalfisher wrote: »and what were the "important" parts of the PE coursework? no one has been able to enunciate that
Conscious that I'm looking at this from a UK perspective, things are somewhat different in US education. Over here every class has an annual plan, with a very clear traceability between learning outcomes, assessment mechanisms and every lesson plan. There is enough flexibility to take a lesson and replan it, so in the circumstances described stop the team game and do something else. So twenty minutes in, everyone is on BW training until the end of the period. That's reasonable, particularly if it's effectively communicated.
That annual plan allows for environmental aspects for PE, with enough flexibility to deal with the unexpected.
What's disproportionate is saying that until the end of the year the plan is out the window.
The other observation of make is that everyone is motivated by different things. Personally I hated team games, so cancelling that would have delighted me. What would have p!ssed me off would have been cancelling cross country for yet another game of rugby.1 -
In the seventh grade we had to learn square dancing in gym class at the beginning of the year. After we moved on to other things (field hockey, rope climbing, obstacle courses, effing soccer).
If anyone misbehaved in gym class after they'd learned the square dancing, the teacher would call the offender to the head of the class and force them to show some square dancing moves while the teacher clapped rhythmically and called out "Now doe-see-doe without a partner!""Promenade head high!" and so forth. It was, like really embarrassing.
Would that have been okay with you guys or would you have written an angry letter to the principal?
As far as I know, no one in the class ever sought out square dancing again as a hobby or a pastime.
Correlative or causative?
Inspired work by your gym teacher. Marvelous.
Also he used to whistle at me when I wore tight pink pants.
Aaaaaand you ruined it.
What a creep
He was trying to teach me a lesson about modesty. This was the seventies and a sense of decorum was still encouraged.
Still creepy, also regressive and misogynist as hell
I'd leave the judgement about whether it was creepy or misogynist up to the recipient of the comments rather than the person who read a sentence about it 40 years later.
Yeah, nah. There's an objective level to creepy and misogynist and that reached it.5 -
Alatariel75 wrote: »Yeah, nah. There's an objective level to creepy and misogynist
the one that says 'you don't wolf-whistle 12-yo kids?' or the one that says 'especially when you're in an authority position relating to them, and it's a 'relationship' that they can't opt out of?'6 -
0 -
There is literally no possible scenario where it is justifiable that a teacher make sexually suggestive remarks, gestures, noises, or anything toward a young student. None. It really doesn’t make a lick of difference how the student feels about it. It is unequivocally disgusting and the creep shouldn’t have been allowed around children in the first place.8
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canadianlbs wrote: »Alatariel75 wrote: »Yeah, nah. There's an objective level to creepy and misogynist
the one that says 'you don't wolf-whistle 12-yo kids?' or the one that says 'especially when you're in an authority position relating to them, and it's a 'relationship' that they can't opt out of?'
I could have told him to f*** off then and was known for saying as much to other teachers. I spend more time in detention and in-house suspension than I did at classes sometimes. I was pretty much then as I am now. I didn't bother mouthing off to him in response because I really didn't give a s***. He was basically a fair guy with a good sense of humor who didn't bother people but had an old school way of getting certain points across. Of course now, if something like that happened in today's public school environment it would have been an amber alert, a front page newspaper story, an internet smear to last a lifetime and snowflakes of all ages would have been melting away and screaming at the sky. Glad it happened 40 years ago for God's sake when every reactionary didn't have an ax to grind.
I was in school 40 years ago and it being okay for teachers to behave inappropriately towards students was not a thing back then. In fact our coach was fired for making a joke about some girl's sweat pants tie reminding him of a tampon string, along with other inappropriate and harassing behaviors towards female students.4 -
Aaron_K123 wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »I have two children, currently young enough that they are not yet in school. When they do attend school I hope that the school they attend has teachers that are empowered with the ability to provide disciplinary action. They shouldn't be allowed to hit children or lock them in solitary but they certainly should be able to make them run some laps if they mouth off in gym class I mean come on.
I want my children to be resilient because the real world requires resilience. I want them to have discipline because being disciplined is how you become an effective adult. How are they going to become resilient if they aren't made to cope with situations that make them uncomfortable? How are they going to become disciplined if they cannot be punished for misbehavior? If there is an opportunity to discipline them for misbehavior in a way that is actually beneficial to their health while introducing a level of discomfort they then have to cope with then thumbs high up from me.
If we protect them all throughout school years from any sort of discomfort how are they going to survive the inevitable kick to the gut that real life will be giving them at some point. Are we protecting them or are we protecting ourselves because we don't like to see them uncomfortable or upset? Am I really that crazy?
Here's the last thing I'm going to say on this subject. To my mind, this discussion isn't about discipline, or teachers having authority in the classroom, or children being resilient, or protecting children from real-world consequences.
Who is saying that children should be "protect[ed] ... from any sort of discomfort" anyway? If you're claiming that I'm arguing this, then you are incorrect. It's maddening to me that I'm being interpreted this way. I listed multiple options for disciplining students, and one of my options was even to change the coursework for a few days! How would the options that I presented, including conferences, extra homework, and the like, count as "shielding them from situations that make them uncomfortable"? How did my listing multiple punishments somehow come to mean they "cannot be punished for their misbehavior"?
I've got 4 sons who are all fine young men, including 2 Eagle Scouts. We've dealt with many teachers and many situations. I don't think I've ever complained about discipline any teacher used on any of my sons.
This discussion is, as stated in the OP, should exercise be used as punishment? I still say no. It will make some children (not all, as many of you have pointed out) hate exercise. I've seen it in myself and in many of my friends and family. It's counterproductive toward the goal of making young people enjoy and appreciate exercise, and I doubt its efficacy as a punishment.
Alright fair enough I don't want to mischaracterize you and I certainly don't want to have some sort of parent-off about who has the better guiding principles for their children.
Out of curiosity if a student was goofing off in math class, passing notes...being disrespectful. Do you think it would be appropriate if the teacher took away their notepad that they were using for passing notes and put in front of them a pop-quiz of math problems and instructed the student to complete it by end of class? Or would you view that as inappropriately using math as punishment in a way that would turn the student away from math in the future?
Is the teacher having the whole class do nothing but pop quizzes for the rest of the year? Because that's what has been presented as the scenario in this PE class. Some students misbehaved. Therefore the whole class will do pop quizzes every day for the rest of the year. They won't learn or perform any other activity, just pop quizzes. I like pop quizzes, I'm good at math. Bring it on, teach. Plenty of other kids would be turned off on math forever. Lousy teaching.0 -
maryannprt wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »I have two children, currently young enough that they are not yet in school. When they do attend school I hope that the school they attend has teachers that are empowered with the ability to provide disciplinary action. They shouldn't be allowed to hit children or lock them in solitary but they certainly should be able to make them run some laps if they mouth off in gym class I mean come on.
I want my children to be resilient because the real world requires resilience. I want them to have discipline because being disciplined is how you become an effective adult. How are they going to become resilient if they aren't made to cope with situations that make them uncomfortable? How are they going to become disciplined if they cannot be punished for misbehavior? If there is an opportunity to discipline them for misbehavior in a way that is actually beneficial to their health while introducing a level of discomfort they then have to cope with then thumbs high up from me.
If we protect them all throughout school years from any sort of discomfort how are they going to survive the inevitable kick to the gut that real life will be giving them at some point. Are we protecting them or are we protecting ourselves because we don't like to see them uncomfortable or upset? Am I really that crazy?
Here's the last thing I'm going to say on this subject. To my mind, this discussion isn't about discipline, or teachers having authority in the classroom, or children being resilient, or protecting children from real-world consequences.
Who is saying that children should be "protect[ed] ... from any sort of discomfort" anyway? If you're claiming that I'm arguing this, then you are incorrect. It's maddening to me that I'm being interpreted this way. I listed multiple options for disciplining students, and one of my options was even to change the coursework for a few days! How would the options that I presented, including conferences, extra homework, and the like, count as "shielding them from situations that make them uncomfortable"? How did my listing multiple punishments somehow come to mean they "cannot be punished for their misbehavior"?
I've got 4 sons who are all fine young men, including 2 Eagle Scouts. We've dealt with many teachers and many situations. I don't think I've ever complained about discipline any teacher used on any of my sons.
This discussion is, as stated in the OP, should exercise be used as punishment? I still say no. It will make some children (not all, as many of you have pointed out) hate exercise. I've seen it in myself and in many of my friends and family. It's counterproductive toward the goal of making young people enjoy and appreciate exercise, and I doubt its efficacy as a punishment.
Alright fair enough I don't want to mischaracterize you and I certainly don't want to have some sort of parent-off about who has the better guiding principles for their children.
Out of curiosity if a student was goofing off in math class, passing notes...being disrespectful. Do you think it would be appropriate if the teacher took away their notepad that they were using for passing notes and put in front of them a pop-quiz of math problems and instructed the student to complete it by end of class? Or would you view that as inappropriately using math as punishment in a way that would turn the student away from math in the future?
Is the teacher having the whole class do nothing but pop quizzes for the rest of the year? Because that's what has been presented as the scenario in this PE class. Some students misbehaved. Therefore the whole class will do pop quizzes every day for the rest of the year. They won't learn or perform any other activity, just pop quizzes. I like pop quizzes, I'm good at math. Bring it on, teach. Plenty of other kids would be turned off on math forever. Lousy teaching.
Is the PE coach actually having them do bodyweight exercises for the rest of the year? I doubt it very much. But if they did then yes I would agree that would be inappropriate. Big difference between telling a kid "eat your brocolli or you will never get any more icecream" and actually preventing a child from ever eating icecream until the age of 18. I think we can all recognize what the likely meaning of the statement was right, it was a statement of do X or you won't get Y and we will do Z instead until you do even if that is the rest of the year. That doesn't mean they are going to do it for the rest of the year.0 -
This isn't punishment, but a corrective and instructive measure. Military forces have this ingrained throughout their lives:
Not paying attention? 20 pushups
Last man in line? 20 pushups
Fall asleep in class? 20 pushups
My 9 year old son gets corrected for not paying attention in baseball and the team runs laps.
Punishment on the other hand incorporates an element of retribution.
Except that elementary school kids in gym class are not on a team and are not in the military. They are supposed to be getting educated along with participating in physical activity. This removes the education aspect in favor of a retributive measure. Athletic kids will do fine and probably will blow it off as easy, while the less athletic kids will be the ones who will find it miserable. Perhaps some of those kids will develop a distaste for exercise as a result. Maybe it will take them decades to develop a taste for it.
Ask me how I know.
Those who are inclined to develop a distaste for exercise probably don't like gym even if it is sports. I didn't. I think the approach the teacher is taking is reasonable.0 -
Aaron_K123 wrote: »maryannprt wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »I have two children, currently young enough that they are not yet in school. When they do attend school I hope that the school they attend has teachers that are empowered with the ability to provide disciplinary action. They shouldn't be allowed to hit children or lock them in solitary but they certainly should be able to make them run some laps if they mouth off in gym class I mean come on.
I want my children to be resilient because the real world requires resilience. I want them to have discipline because being disciplined is how you become an effective adult. How are they going to become resilient if they aren't made to cope with situations that make them uncomfortable? How are they going to become disciplined if they cannot be punished for misbehavior? If there is an opportunity to discipline them for misbehavior in a way that is actually beneficial to their health while introducing a level of discomfort they then have to cope with then thumbs high up from me.
If we protect them all throughout school years from any sort of discomfort how are they going to survive the inevitable kick to the gut that real life will be giving them at some point. Are we protecting them or are we protecting ourselves because we don't like to see them uncomfortable or upset? Am I really that crazy?
Here's the last thing I'm going to say on this subject. To my mind, this discussion isn't about discipline, or teachers having authority in the classroom, or children being resilient, or protecting children from real-world consequences.
Who is saying that children should be "protect[ed] ... from any sort of discomfort" anyway? If you're claiming that I'm arguing this, then you are incorrect. It's maddening to me that I'm being interpreted this way. I listed multiple options for disciplining students, and one of my options was even to change the coursework for a few days! How would the options that I presented, including conferences, extra homework, and the like, count as "shielding them from situations that make them uncomfortable"? How did my listing multiple punishments somehow come to mean they "cannot be punished for their misbehavior"?
I've got 4 sons who are all fine young men, including 2 Eagle Scouts. We've dealt with many teachers and many situations. I don't think I've ever complained about discipline any teacher used on any of my sons.
This discussion is, as stated in the OP, should exercise be used as punishment? I still say no. It will make some children (not all, as many of you have pointed out) hate exercise. I've seen it in myself and in many of my friends and family. It's counterproductive toward the goal of making young people enjoy and appreciate exercise, and I doubt its efficacy as a punishment.
Alright fair enough I don't want to mischaracterize you and I certainly don't want to have some sort of parent-off about who has the better guiding principles for their children.
Out of curiosity if a student was goofing off in math class, passing notes...being disrespectful. Do you think it would be appropriate if the teacher took away their notepad that they were using for passing notes and put in front of them a pop-quiz of math problems and instructed the student to complete it by end of class? Or would you view that as inappropriately using math as punishment in a way that would turn the student away from math in the future?
Is the teacher having the whole class do nothing but pop quizzes for the rest of the year? Because that's what has been presented as the scenario in this PE class. Some students misbehaved. Therefore the whole class will do pop quizzes every day for the rest of the year. They won't learn or perform any other activity, just pop quizzes. I like pop quizzes, I'm good at math. Bring it on, teach. Plenty of other kids would be turned off on math forever. Lousy teaching.
Is the PE coach actually having them do bodyweight exercises for the rest of the year? I doubt it very much. But if they did then yes I would agree that would be inappropriate. Big difference between telling a kid "eat your brocolli or you will never get any more icecream" and actually preventing a child from ever eating icecream until the age of 18. I think we can all recognize what the likely meaning of the statement was right, it was a statement of do X or you won't get Y and we will do Z instead until you do even if that is the rest of the year. That doesn't mean they are going to do it for the rest of the year.
That's what is presented as the argument. Personally I don't think a day or 2 of calisthenics is enough of a punishment for cheating. I think that teacher needs to learn better methods of dealing with his/her class. I'm never ok with punishing the group for the actions of a couple of miscreats. And we aren't addressing the op's original question. I think calisthenics as punishment is appropriate IN THIS SETTING. If you made the math class do pushups, that would be a different thing. It's unlikely that a day of less fun will turn the average student off of physical activities. I preferred it myself. Don't really like games, I preferred solo activities.1 -
Aaron_K123 wrote: »maryannprt wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »I have two children, currently young enough that they are not yet in school. When they do attend school I hope that the school they attend has teachers that are empowered with the ability to provide disciplinary action. They shouldn't be allowed to hit children or lock them in solitary but they certainly should be able to make them run some laps if they mouth off in gym class I mean come on.
I want my children to be resilient because the real world requires resilience. I want them to have discipline because being disciplined is how you become an effective adult. How are they going to become resilient if they aren't made to cope with situations that make them uncomfortable? How are they going to become disciplined if they cannot be punished for misbehavior? If there is an opportunity to discipline them for misbehavior in a way that is actually beneficial to their health while introducing a level of discomfort they then have to cope with then thumbs high up from me.
If we protect them all throughout school years from any sort of discomfort how are they going to survive the inevitable kick to the gut that real life will be giving them at some point. Are we protecting them or are we protecting ourselves because we don't like to see them uncomfortable or upset? Am I really that crazy?
Here's the last thing I'm going to say on this subject. To my mind, this discussion isn't about discipline, or teachers having authority in the classroom, or children being resilient, or protecting children from real-world consequences.
Who is saying that children should be "protect[ed] ... from any sort of discomfort" anyway? If you're claiming that I'm arguing this, then you are incorrect. It's maddening to me that I'm being interpreted this way. I listed multiple options for disciplining students, and one of my options was even to change the coursework for a few days! How would the options that I presented, including conferences, extra homework, and the like, count as "shielding them from situations that make them uncomfortable"? How did my listing multiple punishments somehow come to mean they "cannot be punished for their misbehavior"?
I've got 4 sons who are all fine young men, including 2 Eagle Scouts. We've dealt with many teachers and many situations. I don't think I've ever complained about discipline any teacher used on any of my sons.
This discussion is, as stated in the OP, should exercise be used as punishment? I still say no. It will make some children (not all, as many of you have pointed out) hate exercise. I've seen it in myself and in many of my friends and family. It's counterproductive toward the goal of making young people enjoy and appreciate exercise, and I doubt its efficacy as a punishment.
Alright fair enough I don't want to mischaracterize you and I certainly don't want to have some sort of parent-off about who has the better guiding principles for their children.
Out of curiosity if a student was goofing off in math class, passing notes...being disrespectful. Do you think it would be appropriate if the teacher took away their notepad that they were using for passing notes and put in front of them a pop-quiz of math problems and instructed the student to complete it by end of class? Or would you view that as inappropriately using math as punishment in a way that would turn the student away from math in the future?
Is the teacher having the whole class do nothing but pop quizzes for the rest of the year? Because that's what has been presented as the scenario in this PE class. Some students misbehaved. Therefore the whole class will do pop quizzes every day for the rest of the year. They won't learn or perform any other activity, just pop quizzes. I like pop quizzes, I'm good at math. Bring it on, teach. Plenty of other kids would be turned off on math forever. Lousy teaching.
Is the PE coach actually having them do bodyweight exercises for the rest of the year? I doubt it very much. But if they did then yes I would agree that would be inappropriate. Big difference between telling a kid "eat your brocolli or you will never get any more icecream" and actually preventing a child from ever eating icecream until the age of 18. I think we can all recognize what the likely meaning of the statement was right, it was a statement of do X or you won't get Y and we will do Z instead until you do even if that is the rest of the year. That doesn't mean they are going to do it for the rest of the year.
While failing to live up to your word may be less of a problem than the promised punishment, it's STILL poor form as a teacher. It's important to be fair and consistent with discipline. Threatening punishments that you don't (or can't) follow through on is unprofessional.3 -
rileysowner wrote: »This isn't punishment, but a corrective and instructive measure. Military forces have this ingrained throughout their lives:
Not paying attention? 20 pushups
Last man in line? 20 pushups
Fall asleep in class? 20 pushups
My 9 year old son gets corrected for not paying attention in baseball and the team runs laps.
Punishment on the other hand incorporates an element of retribution.
Except that elementary school kids in gym class are not on a team and are not in the military. They are supposed to be getting educated along with participating in physical activity. This removes the education aspect in favor of a retributive measure. Athletic kids will do fine and probably will blow it off as easy, while the less athletic kids will be the ones who will find it miserable. Perhaps some of those kids will develop a distaste for exercise as a result. Maybe it will take them decades to develop a taste for it.
Ask me how I know.
Those who are inclined to develop a distaste for exercise probably don't like gym even if it is sports. I didn't. I think the approach the teacher is taking is reasonable.
I'd propose those who don't like to move developed the behavior before gym class.3 -
It's not uncommon for a child to come home and slightly exaggerate what was said by the teacher. I would do this as a child because I didn't like what the teacher said. The children I nanny for do this all the time. They may have gotten in trouble at school and have received an appropriate punishment in return and therefor they are upset and exaggerate the situation to me. 9/10 times this is the case. It is possible that these issues have been going on during gym class for awhile now and the teacher has finally put his/her foot down. No more games until we can all play a game appropriately and not cheat. When I was in school if a group of kids were causing a problem it ruined it for the rest of the class. It sucked, but I found that an appropriate thing for the teacher to do. I highly doubt they won't play games anymore this year. I'm thinking using the weight room is temporary to show the kids that they need to listen and play fair in order to play the fun games instead of doing solo work. I think this is similar to a teacher in the classroom saying no more group work for the rest of the year because the students aren't listening and working when they are together, so they get to work alone instead of enjoying group work time. Of course I wasn't in the gym class and can't say exactly what happened and I have no history with this teacher. But I can say I remember several times when I was in 6-8th grade and we had to use the weight room and do some work instead of playing a group game due to bad behavior- and I can't say that it has given me any negative views on these types of exercise.4
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clicketykeys wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »maryannprt wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »I have two children, currently young enough that they are not yet in school. When they do attend school I hope that the school they attend has teachers that are empowered with the ability to provide disciplinary action. They shouldn't be allowed to hit children or lock them in solitary but they certainly should be able to make them run some laps if they mouth off in gym class I mean come on.
I want my children to be resilient because the real world requires resilience. I want them to have discipline because being disciplined is how you become an effective adult. How are they going to become resilient if they aren't made to cope with situations that make them uncomfortable? How are they going to become disciplined if they cannot be punished for misbehavior? If there is an opportunity to discipline them for misbehavior in a way that is actually beneficial to their health while introducing a level of discomfort they then have to cope with then thumbs high up from me.
If we protect them all throughout school years from any sort of discomfort how are they going to survive the inevitable kick to the gut that real life will be giving them at some point. Are we protecting them or are we protecting ourselves because we don't like to see them uncomfortable or upset? Am I really that crazy?
Here's the last thing I'm going to say on this subject. To my mind, this discussion isn't about discipline, or teachers having authority in the classroom, or children being resilient, or protecting children from real-world consequences.
Who is saying that children should be "protect[ed] ... from any sort of discomfort" anyway? If you're claiming that I'm arguing this, then you are incorrect. It's maddening to me that I'm being interpreted this way. I listed multiple options for disciplining students, and one of my options was even to change the coursework for a few days! How would the options that I presented, including conferences, extra homework, and the like, count as "shielding them from situations that make them uncomfortable"? How did my listing multiple punishments somehow come to mean they "cannot be punished for their misbehavior"?
I've got 4 sons who are all fine young men, including 2 Eagle Scouts. We've dealt with many teachers and many situations. I don't think I've ever complained about discipline any teacher used on any of my sons.
This discussion is, as stated in the OP, should exercise be used as punishment? I still say no. It will make some children (not all, as many of you have pointed out) hate exercise. I've seen it in myself and in many of my friends and family. It's counterproductive toward the goal of making young people enjoy and appreciate exercise, and I doubt its efficacy as a punishment.
Alright fair enough I don't want to mischaracterize you and I certainly don't want to have some sort of parent-off about who has the better guiding principles for their children.
Out of curiosity if a student was goofing off in math class, passing notes...being disrespectful. Do you think it would be appropriate if the teacher took away their notepad that they were using for passing notes and put in front of them a pop-quiz of math problems and instructed the student to complete it by end of class? Or would you view that as inappropriately using math as punishment in a way that would turn the student away from math in the future?
Is the teacher having the whole class do nothing but pop quizzes for the rest of the year? Because that's what has been presented as the scenario in this PE class. Some students misbehaved. Therefore the whole class will do pop quizzes every day for the rest of the year. They won't learn or perform any other activity, just pop quizzes. I like pop quizzes, I'm good at math. Bring it on, teach. Plenty of other kids would be turned off on math forever. Lousy teaching.
Is the PE coach actually having them do bodyweight exercises for the rest of the year? I doubt it very much. But if they did then yes I would agree that would be inappropriate. Big difference between telling a kid "eat your brocolli or you will never get any more icecream" and actually preventing a child from ever eating icecream until the age of 18. I think we can all recognize what the likely meaning of the statement was right, it was a statement of do X or you won't get Y and we will do Z instead until you do even if that is the rest of the year. That doesn't mean they are going to do it for the rest of the year.
While failing to live up to your word may be less of a problem than the promised punishment, it's STILL poor form as a teacher. It's important to be fair and consistent with discipline. Threatening punishments that you don't (or can't) follow through on is unprofessional.
I'm unclear as to why he wouldn't be able to follow through. His "threat" was they needed to learn how to play without cheating or they wouldn't be allowed to play any more. How is that not a statement that parents all over the world use all the time with their kids? If you hear that do you hear "that kid will never be able to play any more" or do you here "that parent is going to instruct the kid how to play without cheating but until they learn they won't be able to play". Personally I hear the latter and I think that is a "threat" that is likely to be kept. I'm not sure why people are reading it in the most negative light possible.5
This discussion has been closed.
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