What about dry needling?

thecharon wrote: »

Careful with people that are trying to make MONEY out of you.

So does this mean it would be a whole lot safer for things like this if there was no money to be made by the person doing it?

That would concern me much more, no money being made on it.
Unless there was a reason why it was free or cheap - like dental school and you knew the trade off was process taking much longer.

Not sure in this case I'd like to be the pin cushion for practice though - hope the class uses each other.

Glad I've never needed more than ART for bad pressure points, that was painful enough, though good pain realized even at the moment - much more relief later.

Makes me want to go in for a session - and watch someone like @cwolfman13 get pinned!

Orphia wrote: »

It did bugger all for me when I had a bad back.

It's magic for those who like their witchdoctors in a white coat.

"It worked for me" is not scientific evidence. It's just admitting you were fooled by the Placebo Effect.

Sorry it didn't work for you, it does not work for all people you just need to keep trying other avenues until you find something effective for you. Don't discourage people from trying it just because it didn't work for you it might work great for them and then you did them a huge disservice, which wouldn't make you a very good person, hope you don't give that crap advice to someone you are supposed to care about. Also even if it was the placebo effect who give a F%$# as long as it works! For someone in serious pain EVERY SINGLE HOUR OF THE DAY if that helped do you honestly think they would care? The goal is to be out of pain and if that does it for them then isn't it working no matter how it came about? I work for a spine clinic and have for 9 years I also have a husband who has had 2 back surgeries in the last year and has done dry needling to great benefit, along with many friends and coworkers who have. So I'll take your opinion with a grain of salt.

@Grnhouse I have it done when my shoulder acts up. It was absolutely amazing!! Seems to be related to chronic knots in the muscle and tendon. If you get a good therapist/doc that does it, it can work wonders!! the first few times I was CRAZY sore after it was done for a day or so. I started off having it done once a week and then as things got better it was once every 4-6 weeks and then on a case by case basis as my pain returned or mobility was affected. I have chronic shoulder problems and it is NOT a case of being fixed. It is a alternative to being on medication for the pain and muscle relaxers that I used to have to take daily. for me it was a pain management technique. feel free to message me but I am a HUGE advocate.

Orphia wrote: »

emmydoodles83 wrote: »

sijomial wrote: »

Orphia wrote: »

It did bugger all for me when I had a bad back.

It's magic for those who like their witchdoctors in a white coat.

"It worked for me" is not scientific evidence. It's just admitting you were fooled by the Placebo Effect.

Alternatively....

Sumatriptan did bugger all for me when I had migraines.

It's magic for those who like their witchdoctors in a white coat.

"It didn't work for me" is not scientific evidence. It's just admitting that not all treatments are effective for everyone.

Well said, I hate it when people think just because something wasn't the answer for them that it's worthless, witchdoctor, hoodoo. Medical care would be really friggin easy if everything worked the same for everyone.........duh. Especially something that can get you out of pain that is a non drug/opiod option!

Unless the fact it didn't work for me is because it doesn't actually work.

There is no strong evidence that it works.

https://healthybutsmart.com/dry-needling-therapy/

"A PubMed search of the terms, ‘dry needling’, ‘trigger point dry needling’, or ‘intramuscular needling’, limited to the English language, humans and spanning from the year 2000 to present, yields about 150 results. Of these, 12 are meta-analyses and 29 are systematic reviews.

The relatively low number, and overall quality, of studies reporting on DN performed by PTs, at this time at least, coupled with the high variability found in the results of the meta-analyses, made it challenging to piece this article together."

Following a good few weeks of research, I would think that, at best, DN as a therapeutic treatment is somewhat dodgy! Wouldn’t you by now? There is currently no evidence (15) of any longterm benefit derived from DN, for a start. Whatever short-term benefit is suggested from DN generally comes from low to medium-quality evidence concluding that DN is better than “no treatment or sham needling.”

15. Gattie E, Cleland JA, Snodgrass S. The Effectiveness of Trigger Point Dry Needling for Musculoskeletal Conditions by Physical Therapists: A Systematic Review and Meta-analysis. J Orthop Sports Phys Ther. 2017 Mar;47(3):133-149.




It's unethical to offer it to people as a first port of call.

Sure, if you've got no other avenue open and don't mind disappointment, go for it, and you might get a placebo effect.

I just wouldn't recommend it because I don't want to give people false hope.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26946612

Effectiveness of dry needling on reducing pain intensity in patients with myofascial pain syndrome: a Meta-analysis.

Rodríguez-Mansilla J, González-Sánchez B, De Toro García Á, Valera-Donoso E, Garrido-Ardila EM, Jiménez-Palomares M, González López-Arza MV.

CONCLUSION: DN was less effective on decreasing pain comparing to the placebo group.

I'm wary of its effectiveness barring any studies which show otherwise. The sum of the body of research I found came to the same conclusion as @Orphia.

I do find it ironic that given this forum group's reliance and call to scientific research when claims are made, the only person to bring up actual studies instead of their own anecdotal data in here is getting woo'ed...

Had dry needling in traps/rhomboids/cervical. it was horrendous. horrible painful having a 3" needle stuck down hard. So paintful, to the point of throwing up. And, it actually made me worse.
Am back on steroid injections every 3 months.

The_Enginerd wrote: »

Orphia wrote: »

I do find it ironic that given this forum group's reliance and call to scientific research when claims are made, the only person to bring up actual studies instead of their own anecdotal data in here is getting woo'ed...

I honestly didn't think "woo" was a bad thing. I thought it was something like "WOOHOO!" like a cheer.. I have "woo'ed" people thinking this...

Orphia wrote: »

wellnesschaser wrote: »

But dry needling is an effective treatment for trigger points, IMO. A manual trigger point therapist can also release many helpful points.

The first "works" by the placebo effect. The latter (manual) actually works.

Any studies you can point me to on a possible placebo effect?

canadianlbs wrote: »

cwolfman13 wrote: »

@canadianlbs it also works well for IT band syndrome...though the treatment is much more unpleasant than just dealing with trigger points.

yeeks . . . i don't have much reason to think he'll start right in with needles the first time we meet, and it might not even be the right thing for me. i'm suspecting a bone pointer or labral tear, from the way that things feel.

but i have just enough reservations about the guy i was referred to, to be interested in anything you can say about separating the quacks/cowboys from the better people in case needling does come up too.

anything your guy did in the early stages that convinced you he was performing due diligence and knew what he was doing? or example, i'd be very interested to hear what protocols he followed to find the trigger point and identify the needle target in the first place. do they show up on some kind of imaging?

@canadianlbs I initially sought massage therapy as trigger points are essentially just really bad knots of muscle. I tried a regular Swedish massage and then a deep tissue that focused on those points...I also performed self massage on those points using a lacrosse ball. I had two massages over the course of two weeks and self massage daily, and nothing released the muscle.

I finally went in to see my Dr. not only for that pain, but I also started feeling numbness and tingling down my left arm and into my fingers and a feeling like spiders or something crawling on my back. He dry needled about 6 or 7 different trigger points...not all of them released, but he got 3 or 4 of them good. With my other symptoms, he sent me in for an MRI which showed a herniated disk.

To find the trigger points, all he had to really do was feel around back there...they're pretty hard knots of muscle...so basically what a massage therapist would. Basically instead of applying pressure to the point as a massage therapist would do, they simply insert a needle into the knot to try to get it to release...so not really a dangerous thing really.

My guy is my GP and I have a very good relationship with him. He is also an athlete (Iron Man and cyclist) and is well versed in sports medicine...given our relationship and his expertise, I had no trust issues. He treats average Joes like myself obviously, but a lot of the local pro and amateur athletes around here have him as their GP and go to him to get other treatments...which is kinda cool because his office is full of all kinds of autographed memorabilia instead of just being a boring white room. I found him several years ago when I was looking for a new GP because my former one retired...my sister is good friends with Holly Holmes and told me that's where she goes and that Geoffrey is really good.

He didn't get full release, but enough to take the edge off. He referred me to physical therapy where I received a variety of treatment including more needling and ultra sound treatment in addition to the exercises.

ETA: I also bought one of these shortly after my PT ended...



I still get trigger points a lot, so I use this when they're just starting to nip them in the bud.

wellnesschaser wrote: »

Orphia wrote: »

wellnesschaser wrote: »

But dry needling is an effective treatment for trigger points, IMO. A manual trigger point therapist can also release many helpful points.

The first "works" by the placebo effect. The latter (manual) actually works.

Any studies you can point me to on a possible placebo effect?

The links I've already posted show all the studies. The results of dry-needling are all self-reported, so the resulting low quality evidence is a result of the placebo effect.