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Do you take calcium and vitamin D to protect your bones?
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thecharon
Posts: 569 Member
in Debate Club
A new study says it does not. This is sad news to me since all older women in my family have osteoporosis (some debilitating). What on earth to do?
http://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-vitamins-bone-fractures-20171226-story.html
I walk and spend most of my day on my feet. I hope that's enough. I eat greens at least every 2 days.
http://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-vitamins-bone-fractures-20171226-story.html
I walk and spend most of my day on my feet. I hope that's enough. I eat greens at least every 2 days.
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If I'm reading correctly, these are people who are supplementing only when they got older, right? So it doesn't access if these supplements are useful if they are taken over a longer period.2
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I take d to feel better when it is low, and I drink milk. Does that count?2
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I lift weights to improve bone strength. I'm a road cyclist and we tend to have brittle bones, probably from a combination of losing minerals through sweat and the complete lack of impact in road cycling.3
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I take D during the winter (although I'm bad about remembering), but not for bone health. I do it because the sunlight is less so deficiencies are common in winter in northern climates (my doctor suggested it) and it seems to help my mood, which I think could be slightly related to lower vit D (I think I have mood issues in the winter more because of the darkness and yes I keep thinking about trying one of those light things).
I don't take calcium, I think I can get it from food (I eat loads of greens), and have never tested with a deficiency. My bone health was also excellent when I did a DEXA, which might be from being fat and then doing heavy for me weight training, dunno. Anyway, I think for most healthy people a good diet and exercise is probably sufficient.2 -
I take D, I live in Canada and have a light.
The lights are really good @lemurcat12, I use it as preventative, but about 5 yr ago SO went through a really bad winter. He went to the doc who said to try the light and D supplement before looking at drug therapy. It took about 2 month, but got him back to normal. He uses both every year now and doesn't get the mood dip.
I read years ago that taking a calcium supplement was suboptimal, but take one in the winter to augment my diet and exercise anyway. Probably don't need to, I'm just old and think a half dose is better safe than sorry.
Cheers, h.
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I take Vitamin D, but not to protect my bones. I have lupus and live in the north, and have very low vitamin D levels in my blood. I've been pretty close to hospitalization for that which is something I'd rather not go through.2
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My current understanding (as I took Vitamin D and Calcium for years and wish I hadn't) is that if you take Vitamin D and Calcium, you absolutely need to add in Vitamin K2, not to be mistaken for Vitamin K. Vitamin K2 was another nutrient our ancestors got in their diets regularly from grass fed dairy and grass fed organ meats. Since none of us (or few of us) eat those things any longer, we no longer get Vitamin K2. Essentially, my understanding is that Vitamin D helps the body store Calcium. The issue is, without Vitamin K2, your body does not know where to put all the calcium. That's why we have such problems with heart disease in the US - calcification of arteries! We also eats tons of dairy in the US yet have terrible overall bone health! Vitamin K2 tells the body to put the calcium where it belongs - in the bones, not the arteries. If you supplement with Vit D and Calcium, you absolutely need Vitamin K2.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4566462/8 -
MikePfirrman wrote: »My current understanding (as I took Vitamin D and Calcium for years and wish I hadn't) is that if you take Vitamin D and Calcium, you absolutely need to add in Vitamin K2, not to be mistaken for Vitamin K. Vitamin K2 was another nutrient our ancestors got in their diets regularly from grass fed dairy and grass fed organ meats. Since none of us (or few of us) eat those things any longer, we no longer get Vitamin K2. Essentially, my understanding is that Vitamin D helps the body store Calcium. The issue is, without Vitamin K2, your body does not know where to put all the calcium. That's why we have such problems with heart disease in the US - calcification of arteries! We also eats tons of dairy in the US yet have terrible overall bone health! Vitamin K2 tells the body to put the calcium where it belongs - in the bones, not the arteries. If you supplement with Vit D and Calcium, you absolutely need Vitamin K2.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4566462/
That may be the case in North America, but some places still have cows that live in paddocks, like they should
. I eat and drink an abundance of dairy, all from grass-fed cows, because that's standard in my country. 4 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »MikePfirrman wrote: »My current understanding (as I took Vitamin D and Calcium for years and wish I hadn't) is that if you take Vitamin D and Calcium, you absolutely need to add in Vitamin K2, not to be mistaken for Vitamin K. Vitamin K2 was another nutrient our ancestors got in their diets regularly from grass fed dairy and grass fed organ meats. Since none of us (or few of us) eat those things any longer, we no longer get Vitamin K2. Essentially, my understanding is that Vitamin D helps the body store Calcium. The issue is, without Vitamin K2, your body does not know where to put all the calcium. That's why we have such problems with heart disease in the US - calcification of arteries! We also eats tons of dairy in the US yet have terrible overall bone health! Vitamin K2 tells the body to put the calcium where it belongs - in the bones, not the arteries. If you supplement with Vit D and Calcium, you absolutely need Vitamin K2.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4566462/
That may be the case in North America, but some places still have cows that live in paddocks, like they should. I eat and drink an abundance of dairy, all from grass-fed cows, because that's standard in my country.
That's awesome for you. Still yet, I think certain items have more K2 than others. I do remember one is Hard Salami for whatever reason (maybe organ meats in it). I do remember that Gouda cheese is another (if grass-fed dairy) that is loaded with K2. Actually, by far the best source is Japanese Natto (fermented soybeans) but most in the West find that to taste like snot!
I'm personally fascinated by the amount of important nutrients that our ancestors got through diet that we no longer get in the typical Western diet.
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Nony_Mouse wrote: »MikePfirrman wrote: »My current understanding (as I took Vitamin D and Calcium for years and wish I hadn't) is that if you take Vitamin D and Calcium, you absolutely need to add in Vitamin K2, not to be mistaken for Vitamin K. Vitamin K2 was another nutrient our ancestors got in their diets regularly from grass fed dairy and grass fed organ meats. Since none of us (or few of us) eat those things any longer, we no longer get Vitamin K2. Essentially, my understanding is that Vitamin D helps the body store Calcium. The issue is, without Vitamin K2, your body does not know where to put all the calcium. That's why we have such problems with heart disease in the US - calcification of arteries! We also eats tons of dairy in the US yet have terrible overall bone health! Vitamin K2 tells the body to put the calcium where it belongs - in the bones, not the arteries. If you supplement with Vit D and Calcium, you absolutely need Vitamin K2.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4566462/
That may be the case in North America, but some places still have cows that live in paddocks, like they should. I eat and drink an abundance of dairy, all from grass-fed cows, because that's standard in my country.
Heck, I live in the US and still manage to get my dairy from pastured cows (and goats) and consume organ meats when I am eating meat (mostly liver, granted, but I think that if one eats meat one should try to eat as much of the animal as possible, even if I don't always live by that as well as I should). I hate over-generalizations.4 -
Education about K2:
https://chrismasterjohnphd.com/2016/12/09/the-ultimate-vitamin-k2-resource/
And a rank-ordered list of food with k2:
https://chrismasterjohnphd.com/advanced-results-mk-4/?type-of-food=&category=&typesMK=Total Vitamin K2#3 -
Here's something on K2: https://chrismasterjohnphd.com/2016/12/09/the-ultimate-vitamin-k2-resource/
I'd want to do more research, but it looks like potentially something for vegans in particular to make sure they are getting enough of, especially, as most of the sources (other than natto) are animal products (including cheese). I probably will research it, since I've been reducing animal products quite a bit.3 -
I read an article about this study in the Washington Post, and it included some rebuttal quotes from a lobby group for supplements. Obviously he's biased but since this is a debate, I figured it was worth quoting for another side to the story.
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'Daniel Fabricant, president of the Natural Products Association, which represents manufacturers and retailers of dietary supplements, said the study draws its conclusions with “too broad of a brush.” He said it focuses on the healthiest segment of the population by looking at people who are able to live at home. “There is a lot missing,” Fabricant said. “People with prior breaks or family incidence of osteoporosis may still need vitamin D.”'
'Fabricant also said the new study contained limited information on the dosages involved. “Maybe the average dose was on the lower end of dose response curve,” he said. “While it’s a nice exercise of mathematics, it doesn’t get at the actual issue which is what are optimal levels for people who need the supplements.”'
'One other limitation of the study is some of the trials included in the analysis did not test baseline vitamin D blood concentration for all participants.'
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/to-your-health/wp/2017/12/26/calcium-and-vitamin-d-supplements-may-not-protect-against-bone-fractures-in-elderly/?utm_term=.4481156117d9
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Considering many people take supplements just in case they aren't getting enough in their diet, not taking into consideration baseline levels and eliminating those who aren't healthy enough to live at home may be eliminating the people who you could argue most needed supplementation.
Neither the study or the article really changes how I feel about this. I will continue to take a small calcium supplement as a "just in case" and a Vitamin D supplement because I'm fair and blood tests show that I'm otherwise low in it.
I think it's always wise to avoid large dose supplementation of any kind unless specifically trying to deal with a serious health condition under a doctor's monitoring. I think it's important to focus on taking care of yourself through diet, exercise, sleep, and stress relief and look at supplementation as a small accessory, not "the thing that will save me from my lifestyle". I've always considered that the prevailing wisdom. My doctor in the 90s told me to take a Calcium supplement no higher than 50% of the RDA, and only on days I didn't eat dairy, I think because the body could only use so much at one time for your bones or something like that.1 -
JeromeBarry1 wrote: »Education about K2:
https://chrismasterjohnphd.com/2016/12/09/the-ultimate-vitamin-k2-resource/
And a rank-ordered list of food with k2:
https://chrismasterjohnphd.com/advanced-results-mk-4/?type-of-food=&category=&typesMK=Total Vitamin K2#
The K2 discussion is interesting. I can only find blog sources like this to support differentiating between K1 and K2. Anything I can find on sites I usually depend on just discusses K in general. Not to say that means it's not a thing, just requires more poking around on my part
So I guess K1 comes from plant sources and K2 comes from animal sources.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Here's something on K2: https://chrismasterjohnphd.com/2016/12/09/the-ultimate-vitamin-k2-resource/
I'd want to do more research, but it looks like potentially something for vegans in particular to make sure they are getting enough of, especially, as most of the sources (other than natto) are animal products (including cheese). I probably will research it, since I've been reducing animal products quite a bit.
You may find this of interest: http://www.veganhealth.org/articles/vitamink2 -
janejellyroll wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Here's something on K2: https://chrismasterjohnphd.com/2016/12/09/the-ultimate-vitamin-k2-resource/
I'd want to do more research, but it looks like potentially something for vegans in particular to make sure they are getting enough of, especially, as most of the sources (other than natto) are animal products (including cheese). I probably will research it, since I've been reducing animal products quite a bit.
You may find this of interest: http://www.veganhealth.org/articles/vitamink
Yes, that's very interesting and helpful, thanks.0 -
My own woo-ish view, for what it's worth, is that it's not ideal to rely too much on supplements but there's generally no harm from including certain of them (I don't take a multi, but that, or of course B12 for vegans, D3, as mentioned above, fish oil or algae DHA, anything based on a deficiency).
The reason I tend to be skeptical of relying on supplements, though (or saying that you need to take them, again with limited exceptions), is that I think we've only identified the nutrients in foods to a limited extent, including the exact effect of specific identified vitamins, and that it's therefore probably better to rely on a diet that includes a broad range of nutrient dense foods and not to limit the diet too much when it comes to such foods (or to think you can just get everything from supplementing in some way, as with multis instead of vegetables or those greens powders or the like -- AND, although I get it's not the totally the same, it's why I am skeptical about the idea of consuming juices in lieu of whole fruit and veg IF one has a choice, because we do know that fiber matters for the gut biome). For ethical considerations (like veganism), sure, especially since we have evidence of many very healthful diets that contain limited animal products (although not none), but that's also why I'm not convinced we need to be adding cheese (or even natto) or worrying about supplementing K2 (although like I said I'll look into it). It's also why I think it makes sense to be skeptical of other diets that greatly limit foods that have been commonplace in the human diet for a long time (paleo, especially the restriction on legumes; keto and the limit on many whole food sources of starch and sugar). (It's also why I think the longstanding use of soy in various Asian cuisines is sufficient reason to be skeptical of the soy fear-mongering.)
But like I said, this is just me, and related to my own somewhat woo-ish bias.2 -
JeromeBarry1 wrote: »Education about K2:
https://chrismasterjohnphd.com/2016/12/09/the-ultimate-vitamin-k2-resource/
And a rank-ordered list of food with k2:
https://chrismasterjohnphd.com/advanced-results-mk-4/?type-of-food=&category=&typesMK=Total Vitamin K2#
The K2 discussion is interesting. I can only find blog sources like this to support differentiating between K1 and K2. Anything I can find on sites I usually depend on just discusses K in general. Not to say that means it's not a thing, just requires more poking around on my part
So I guess K1 comes from plant sources and K2 comes from animal sources.
Yes, in general, most things highest in K2 are animal (grass-fed) products, but the highest item in K2 is the Japanese Natto (fermented soybean) and there are some other fermented vegetables too that have it (sauerkraut), but I don't believe to nearly the extent that Natto has it.
https://chriskresser.com/vitamin-k2-the-missing-nutrient/
Like Kresser states, some limited K gets converted to K2, but very little. Most of the K2 is derived directly from diet. Kresser's a heavy Paleo guy but this is a good article. He sites the other article that others have posted by the way so it's some duplicate information.
This is one of the best articles I've read on it over the years. I'm like lemurcat (now). I used to take a ton of supplements and wonder if I actually created heart clogging (artery calcification) with supplementing so long with calcium and Vitamin D, which can really be a bad combination without K2. Now, ironically, I only take K2 and rarely calcium supplements or D, because I get most of that from diet and the sun. I do add in D through Winter only.
Being mostly Vegan, I do supplement with B-12, Algal Oil, Zinc and K2 (and sometimes a food based multi, but that's more I think mental). I do like some of the minerals I get in my multi.2 -
@MikePfirrman After getting whiplash in my 20s and 30s from following the advice of articles and blogs, I take anything that is only supported by individual's opinions with a grain of salt now. The earlier links are great articles (in @JeromeBarry1 's post), but I've never heard of that doctor before and it is his blog, so it has me interested but not convinced. Looking at the Kresser website, I don't really put much weight on that article, entirely a personal preference issue. The only other resources I found on my first Google of vitamin K2 were Axe and Mercola, who get an automatic side eye from me, and the like. So this gets filed in "Interesting, needs more research on my part" not "Holy cow, people should throw out/buy supplements and change everything". I'm not a vegetarian and eat plenty of the listed foods with K2 so I'm not concerned for my health on this one way or the other.
I also take far fewer supplements than I used to, and stopped taking a multi. The ones I do take are fairly low levels, so basically shoring up dietary deficiencies rather than self-medicating, for sure.4
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