Precision Nutrition

AnvilHead wrote: »

lemurcat12 wrote: »

...I get angry about people charging for dieting advice, basically, and usually they have their own "one right way" to do it -- which does not mean a preset meal plan. I've seen stuff from PN that suggested that counting calories doesn't work and exaggerates how important the inaccuracies are, for example, that led me to put them in that category and I am inherently skeptical about dieting advice to pay for (other than a dietitian for someone who needed that kind of help). I really DON'T think this makes me so unusual or way out, as others suggested; I think seeing what we do at MFP it's a good starting place, to be skeptical of those who try to sell dieting services as necessary or providing some huge advantage (I don't mean you, I don't think you are selling anything)...

I saw the exact same kind of stuff from PN and that was what turned me off to them. I've read a lot of their stuff in the past that was pretty solid, but I think they jumped the shark at some point and started getting off base and too esoteric. I now can't shake a feeling that they're at least somewhat shady/woo-ey because of their CICO denial stuff.

lemurcat12 wrote: »

Dnarules wrote: »

lemurcat12 wrote: »

Dnarules wrote: »

lemurcat12 wrote: »

I think it's better to figure out for yourself how to have a good sustainable diet as opposed to having someone else do it for you.

But you actually do it yourself in PN. The thing I have found most useful are the daily lessons (every day but Saturday). In the beginning the lessons centered around determining why and when you overeat. We didn't even get to nutrition until several weeks later. There is a worksheet you can use after a really bad eating day (overeating) that helps you pinpoint what circumstances may have lead it. They do encourage keeping a food log short term at one point to help identify which foods/meals may be working for you, and which do not. They encourage you to add good sources of protein, vegetables, and complex carbs to your meals.

I am not encouraging anyone to spend money on this. I'm just trying to correct what I think are misconceptions. They don't tell you what to eat. They give guidelines.

First, I totally admit that I am kind of biased on this, and I'm not entirely sure where it's coming from.

However, I am not assuming hat they give you a specific meal plan (I did think they probably gave you macros or the like or some structure, and if they are encouraging you to add protein, veg, and complex carbs they are -- and wouldn't someone already know to do that?).

The kinds of things you mention are the things I have worked on on my own, and find important, but in my head -- and again this may not make actual sense -- it seems valuable to figure those things out on one's own (or I should say "on my own") vs. having someone else do it (based on their own preconceptions).

For example, I think structure is important for eating, and figured out that for me eating three meals, not snacking, seems to work. I sort of intuitively realized that eating meals structured around protein, vegetables, and some starch (but that can vary a lot based on calorie goal) plus some healthy fat as accent works well. Someone else telling me how to structure a meal is something I react against, it seems like I wouldn't learn that way but just do it without understanding why it works, the underlying point.

Same with things like seeing how foods work or not -- good advice, but isn't that what one does with MFP, normally? Look at how things go and make changes?

When I first started MFP, I journaled about eating and stopped and I should probably go back to it (it was helpful for a while and I've been struggling with emotional eating again).

For some reason those things seem sensible and good, but as soon as they become someone else telling me what to do it feels like it would be "one size fits all" and substituting someone else's judgment for my own.

Like I said, this may not make sense, as I have no issue with the idea of following a preset strength training program as a starting point or being taught how to structure my own from someone else vs. figuring it all out from the beginning. I really am not sure why the idea of selling "how to plan your diet" seems so wrong to me, except that that basics do strike me as really simple and the rest needs to be personal (IMO) to be workable.

Some do better following plans, probably, whereas other people's plans often make me feel rebellious (even if my own plan is really conventional and similar to standard nutrition advice, heh).

I feel like you're saying that the fact that this program is helping me means I am a sheep and I don't feel like figuring out myself.

That was not my intention.

Nothing could be further from the truth. I learned a lot in 2012/2013 when I used mfp to lose weight. But I still ended up failing. So I'm trying this program with mfp to help solidify habits. The program has forced me to answer questions I hadn't even considered. I'm still doing the work.

You're in these forums as much as I am, if not more. People struggle and have problems figuring things out all the time.

And this isn't a preset eating plan. I don't know where people are getting that idea.

Again, I did not say it was a preset eating plan, so I don't know why you keep saying it's not. If it's more about habits and not nutrition, I can see how that might be useful, and I do think people find different things helpful. My impression from some coach who posted here and their information I've seen that it was more about how to choose food (without using MFP) -- basically a kind of glorified "fill half your plate with veg, eat protein, use your hand and thumb and so on to judge portions and if you are X size you want Y portion" kind of thing (which I would not call a preset eating plan).

I get angry about people charging for dieting advice, basically, and usually they have their own "one right way" to do it -- which does not mean a preset meal plan. I've seen stuff from PN that suggested that counting calories doesn't work and exaggerates how important the inaccuracies are, for example, that led me to put them in that category and I am inherently skeptical about dieting advice to pay for (other than a dietitian for someone who needed that kind of help). I really DON'T think this makes me so unusual or way out, as others suggested; I think seeing what we do at MFP it's a good starting place, to be skeptical of those who try to sell dieting services as necessary or providing some huge advantage (I don't mean you, I don't think you are selling anything).

That said, I don't think calorie counting is the one right way for everyone, let alone long term, and generally don't count at maintenance myself. I admitted that my reaction that paying for "how to eat" (or whatever you want to call it -- I don't think that means a preset diet plan, again) advice was inconsistent with the fact I think paying for other things (including workout help) is totally normal, and that I've even recommended to some that they go to a dietitian. I am interested (although you don't have to go into, obviously) in what you think you get from PN that you wouldn't get on your own, since I think if someone knows how to structure a sensible diet and that sustaining it is about things like habits that it's not really about "figuring things out" as in academic stuff someone could teach you. But goodness knows I don't have everything figured out -- indeed, it's the "how to structure a diet" stuff I think is easy and commonly known already, and yet there are all kinds of services paying to tell you what to eat (and again, I don't mean a preset meal plan), when usually actually doing it is the issue. My prior post (with the one right after it) was SUPPOSED to be a hey, maybe I am being too hasty here kind of thing, as well as identifying the things I didn't quite get, it was hardly an argument or a claim that I was right -- discussion, not argument. I'm genuinely trying to understand what one would learn from it that makes it worthwhile. (I'm also not meaning to derail -- this actually is the question that OP would presumably want to know about also, no?)

Dnarules wrote: »

lemurcat12 wrote: »

Dnarules wrote: »

lemurcat12 wrote: »

Dnarules wrote: »

lemurcat12 wrote: »

I think it's better to figure out for yourself how to have a good sustainable diet as opposed to having someone else do it for you.

But you actually do it yourself in PN. The thing I have found most useful are the daily lessons (every day but Saturday). In the beginning the lessons centered around determining why and when you overeat. We didn't even get to nutrition until several weeks later. There is a worksheet you can use after a really bad eating day (overeating) that helps you pinpoint what circumstances may have lead it. They do encourage keeping a food log short term at one point to help identify which foods/meals may be working for you, and which do not. They encourage you to add good sources of protein, vegetables, and complex carbs to your meals.

I am not encouraging anyone to spend money on this. I'm just trying to correct what I think are misconceptions. They don't tell you what to eat. They give guidelines.

First, I totally admit that I am kind of biased on this, and I'm not entirely sure where it's coming from.

However, I am not assuming hat they give you a specific meal plan (I did think they probably gave you macros or the like or some structure, and if they are encouraging you to add protein, veg, and complex carbs they are -- and wouldn't someone already know to do that?).

The kinds of things you mention are the things I have worked on on my own, and find important, but in my head -- and again this may not make actual sense -- it seems valuable to figure those things out on one's own (or I should say "on my own") vs. having someone else do it (based on their own preconceptions).

For example, I think structure is important for eating, and figured out that for me eating three meals, not snacking, seems to work. I sort of intuitively realized that eating meals structured around protein, vegetables, and some starch (but that can vary a lot based on calorie goal) plus some healthy fat as accent works well. Someone else telling me how to structure a meal is something I react against, it seems like I wouldn't learn that way but just do it without understanding why it works, the underlying point.

Same with things like seeing how foods work or not -- good advice, but isn't that what one does with MFP, normally? Look at how things go and make changes?

When I first started MFP, I journaled about eating and stopped and I should probably go back to it (it was helpful for a while and I've been struggling with emotional eating again).

For some reason those things seem sensible and good, but as soon as they become someone else telling me what to do it feels like it would be "one size fits all" and substituting someone else's judgment for my own.

Like I said, this may not make sense, as I have no issue with the idea of following a preset strength training program as a starting point or being taught how to structure my own from someone else vs. figuring it all out from the beginning. I really am not sure why the idea of selling "how to plan your diet" seems so wrong to me, except that that basics do strike me as really simple and the rest needs to be personal (IMO) to be workable.

Some do better following plans, probably, whereas other people's plans often make me feel rebellious (even if my own plan is really conventional and similar to standard nutrition advice, heh).

I feel like you're saying that the fact that this program is helping me means I am a sheep and I don't feel like figuring out myself.

That was not my intention.

Nothing could be further from the truth. I learned a lot in 2012/2013 when I used mfp to lose weight. But I still ended up failing. So I'm trying this program with mfp to help solidify habits. The program has forced me to answer questions I hadn't even considered. I'm still doing the work.

You're in these forums as much as I am, if not more. People struggle and have problems figuring things out all the time.

And this isn't a preset eating plan. I don't know where people are getting that idea.

Again, I did not say it was a preset eating plan, so I don't know why you keep saying it's not. If it's more about habits and not nutrition, I can see how that might be useful, and I do think people find different things helpful. My impression from some coach who posted here and their information I've seen that it was more about how to choose food (without using MFP) -- basically a kind of glorified "fill half your plate with veg, eat protein, use your hand and thumb and so on to judge portions and if you are X size you want Y portion" kind of thing (which I would not call a preset eating plan).

I get angry about people charging for dieting advice, basically, and usually they have their own "one right way" to do it -- which does not mean a preset meal plan. I've seen stuff from PN that suggested that counting calories doesn't work and exaggerates how important the inaccuracies are, for example, that led me to put them in that category and I am inherently skeptical about dieting advice to pay for (other than a dietitian for someone who needed that kind of help). I really DON'T think this makes me so unusual or way out, as others suggested; I think seeing what we do at MFP it's a good starting place, to be skeptical of those who try to sell dieting services as necessary or providing some huge advantage (I don't mean you, I don't think you are selling anything).

That said, I don't think calorie counting is the one right way for everyone, let alone long term, and generally don't count at maintenance myself. I admitted that my reaction that paying for "how to eat" (or whatever you want to call it -- I don't think that means a preset diet plan, again) advice was inconsistent with the fact I think paying for other things (including workout help) is totally normal, and that I've even recommended to some that they go to a dietitian. I am interested (although you don't have to go into, obviously) in what you think you get from PN that you wouldn't get on your own, since I think if someone knows how to structure a sensible diet and that sustaining it is about things like habits that it's not really about "figuring things out" as in academic stuff someone could teach you. But goodness knows I don't have everything figured out -- indeed, it's the "how to structure a diet" stuff I think is easy and commonly known already, and yet there are all kinds of services paying to tell you what to eat (and again, I don't mean a preset meal plan), when usually actually doing it is the issue. My prior post (with the one right after it) was SUPPOSED to be a hey, maybe I am being too hasty here kind of thing, as well as identifying the things I didn't quite get, it was hardly an argument or a claim that I was right -- discussion, not argument. I'm genuinely trying to understand what one would learn from it that makes it worthwhile. (I'm also not meaning to derail -- this actually is the question that OP would presumably want to know about also, no?)

That's perfectly fine. But in both my earlier posts, I did tell you what I was learning. It is apparent what I am learning would not be useful to you because it was something you picked up early on on your own. But I am finding the habits part useful. Look in all the forums right now and you will see so many people starting over (and over, and over). I started over in August. I don't want to do this again, so I am trying this to see if I can put things in place so that I don't re-gain it all again. I am willing to pay for it. I certainly don't think anyone should have to pay for it. And I was never coerced into joining.