Sports nutrition for endurance athlethes

nvmomketo wrote: »

sijomial wrote: »

nvmomketo wrote: »

I think a large benefit for fat adapted athletes is never hitting the wall. The brain is not ever starved for fuel because glucose is being used elsewhere. The brain uses ketones very very well.

I do think it is silly to argue keto athletes cannot use glucose for fuel or athletes on a higher carb diet won't use fat. Athletes use both. Some athletes may find training keto works best but others may prefer higher carb training. Low carb obviously works very well for some athletes. Higher carb obviously works well for some athletes. Ten or so years from now after a few more athletes have switched between the two woes, we may know if one is superior. Most likely both together are best.

I think it is Peter Attia who called carbs a performance enhancing "drug". It may help with performance, sure. Ketogenic athletes do eat carbs. Carbs are not all or nothing. Metabolically healthy, active people can eat well over 100-200g of carbs and stay ketogenic if they time their carbs around activity. I think a good question really is quantity. When is it too much of a good thing? When is it too little for the athletes to be at their best? My guess is optimum carb intake will vary between athletes and their sports.

Are ingested carbs needed for one to perform and thrive? No. Can a certain amount they help an athlete improve their performances? Sure. Will a fat adapted athlete be better able to avoid hitting the wall? Sure. Does a fat adapted athlete eat carbs? Yes. There is no black and white here, IMO.

Wishful thinking!
(As someone who doesn't do endurance sports and when you did "a handful of raisins" seemed to be the limit of your interest in sports nutrition I wonder why you are so invested in the subject?)

You got this half right so that's something....
"I do think it is silly to argue keto athletes cannot use glucose for fuel or athletes on a higher carb diet won't use fat."
The bit you got wrong is that no-one is saying keto athletes can't use carbs - what is being said is that they use carbs less well (lowered pyruvate dehydrogenase) than someone with a higher carb intake.
Of course athletes use both fat and carbs for fuel, that's not the issue. And keto is just one way that athletes get better at fat oxidation, but a way with a big downside - carb impairment.

"Higher carb obviously works well for some the vast majority of athletes" - FIFY

"Are ingested carbs needed for one to perform and thrive? No"
Can you perform on no carb? Yes of course - just not optimally, so no that's not thriving.

The one thing you got right is "Most likely both together are best" - and keto is not that!

Please don't be condescending. I did endurance sports for decades. I used to run 3-5 hours on my weekends, where, yes, a handful of raisins helped me replace glycogen and BG in the second half of my run. I used to hike a mountain after work in the summer evenings. I did this until I couldn't anymore due to arthritis. Hip replacements may be great but they aren't magical.

I did not say someone said keto athletes can not use carbs, but there seems to be some implicating, perhaps not in this thread, that keto athletes cannot use carbs to supplement training. All or nothing. But I do agree that keto athletes will not use carbs as effectively as higher carb athletes, like high carb athletes will not use fat and ketones as effectively as high fat athletes. Carb impairment vs fat impairment.

And I'll reword my "corrected" statement: Higher carb obviously works well for some the vast majority of athlete who have tried low carb. It seems most athletes who have tried low carb, for more than just a couple of months, tend to continue with some form of it whether it is cycled, targeted, periodic or full time. By athletes, I mean people who participate in sports (basketball, x-country, rugby, lifting, etc.) and work to better their performance (or maintain once you hit a certain point or age). I did not the term "elite" when referring to athletes.

I don't want to debate the definition of "thrive".

And you said

The one thing you got right is "Most likely both together are best" - and keto is not that!

I disagree. Keto does involve eating carbs. It involves being in a ketogenic state most of the time. That can include 0, 20, 50, or 200 g of carbs depending on when those carbs are consumed and what they are. I would say ketogenic athletes can use glucose, fat, and ketones quite well. I doubt high carb based athletes use ketones as effectively (but again, yes, I am sure they use carbs better).

sijomial wrote: »

@mmapags
Now holding my breath for the study by the two scientists with vested interests in a keto business where they gathered elite athletes together for a trial where they only looked at some metabolic adaptations but didn't publish any performance data.....

Seems a very odd omission to me. If I was an elite athlete rates of fat oxidation would be a very minor interest compared to what happened to my performance.

I'm just curious if you have tried a low carb or ketogenic diet over a long enough period (a few months) to judge how it affected your performance? I know you have posted something on how performance falls when LCHF (power walkers who were not fat adapted, I believe) but that is not what all fat adapted athletes report. Or even most. If that were true, I'm sure we'd be hearing it a lot more and its popularity would have died down by now.

nvmomketo wrote: »

Twisting what people say? Where? I disagreed with a few things written but this is the debate board.

In some ways keto may be superior, in other ways it may be inferior, some ways may be the same. For me it is superior. I could not count the number of times that I have been told that I am wrong about that, and that what I have gained from keto I could have got from any diet. That I would get the same results from losing with moderation, or cutting fat, or taking medication, or exercising more, or seeing a doctor, or it's all in my head. That I must not be telling the truth.

I have said that keto is not best for all. I said it in this thread. I said higher carbs may suit some better. Keto is not for everyone - that seems fair and balanced to me... I don't know what you are reading into my responses. I guess my "cognitive superiority" is baffled by this. Was it when I said those in ketosis will avoid hitting the wall because of the availability of an alternate fuel? Nevermind. It really doesn't matter to me. LOL

IMO, if you have not tried low carb or keto, you cannot be sure it will "impair your sports performance", although I understand that you fully believe it will.

I'll bow out now.