Ketogains
piascore
Posts: 7 Member
Hello! Can I ask if anyone here does Ketogains? High protein, moderate fats and low carb whilst lifting (which I love to do).
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Replies
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That's what I'm doing. It's a good way to put on lean muscle.8
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special_ed1977 wrote: »That's what I'm doing. It's a good way to put on lean muscle.
It's not actually. It leads to poor workout performance and carbs are protein sparing. Keto for muscle gain is suboptimal.17 -
^^there is more than one way to gain lean muscle. U do not have to have carbs from certain foods to gain muscle. Keto works as u r fueled by ketones and not glucose from sugars and other carbs. U eat fat, u burn fat and u live off fat!! U still eat carbs but they r from vegetables only. Or trace amounts in ur other keto based foods. Just talk to ur Dr first to make sure ur good to do keto in the first place but there r very few reasons y u couldnt. And some Drs r just really against it and refuse to even look at the research.12
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The question isn't whether you can gain muscle, btw all muscle is lean, or not. The question is whether keto is a good way to do that. The answer is that it's not. You don't need carbs to gain muscle but they help as they spare protein from gluconeogenesis and allow the body to use it for muscle building.
Additionally, if you are ingesting enough protein for muscle growth it will kick you into gluconeogeneis and that will likely kick you out of ketosis. Keto is just sub optimal. If it worked well, people in athletics and body building would be doing and they're not.6 -
The question isn't whether you can gain muscle, btw all muscle is lean, or not. The question is whether keto is a good way to do that. The answer is that it's not. You don't need carbs to gain muscle but they help as they spare protein from gluconeogenesis and allow the body to use it for muscle building.
Additionally, if you are ingesting enough protein for muscle growth it will kick you into gluconeogeneis and that will likely kick you out of ketosis. Keto is just sub optimal. If it worked well, people in athletics and body building would be doing and they're not.
That's arguable. It is not widely accepted that gluconeogenesis is protein driven but rather driven by glucose needs (brain, RBCs, etc) which tends to drop the longer one follows a ketogenic diet. Glucose can also be derived from the glycerol backbone of fatty acids. Plus ketosis tends to be leucine sparing too.... I really hope this is researched more in the near future. <fingers crossed>
Anyways, very high protein diets may slightly lower your level of ketosis, but it generally is not a problem unless you are on a ketogenic diet for medical reasons (like epilepsy or dementia). Supplementing with MCT oil or exogenous ketones would ameliorate that.
I just think that the fact that a full-time ketogenic diet is not the most optimal way to eat while gaining muscle (CKD or TKD may be better), does not mean that is not not a "good" way to eat while gaining muscle. Simply because it is not "the best" does not mean it is poor. JMO
ETA there are a few following ketogains in the keto and Low Carber Daily MFP groups. And in ketogains.
6 -
The question isn't whether you can gain muscle, btw all muscle is lean, or not. The question is whether keto is a good way to do that. The answer is that it's not. You don't need carbs to gain muscle but they help as they spare protein from gluconeogenesis and allow the body to use it for muscle building.
Additionally, if you are ingesting enough protein for muscle growth it will kick you into gluconeogeneis and that will likely kick you out of ketosis. Keto is just sub optimal. If it worked well, people in athletics and body building would be doing and they're not.
That's arguable. It is not widely accepted that gluconeogenesis is protein driven but rather driven by glucose needs (brain, RBCs, etc) which tends to drop the longer one follows a ketogenic diet. Glucose can also be derived from the glycerol backbone of fatty acids. Plus ketosis tends to be leucine sparing too.... I really hope this is researched more in the near future. <fingers crossed>
Anyways, very high protein diets may slightly lower your level of ketosis, but it generally is not a problem unless you are on a ketogenic diet for medical reasons (like epilepsy or dementia). Supplementing with MCT oil or exogenous ketones would ameliorate that.
I just think that the fact that a full-time ketogenic diet is not the most optimal way to eat while gaining muscle (CKD or TKD may be better), does not mean that is not not a "good" way to eat while gaining muscle. Simply because it is not "the best" does not mean it is poor. JMO
ETA there are a few following ketogains in the keto and Low Carber Daily MFP groups. And in ketogains.
Gaining muscle is hard and slow under optimal conditions. What would be "good" about doing it in a suboptimal (read harder and slower) way?
And what peer reviewed studies do you have that support your contention of gluconeogenesis, eg, creating glucose from protein to meet the body's needs, would not interfere with ketosis? And why wouldn't glucose being derived from glycerol in fatty acids, if done in enough volume, also interfere with ketosis. These look like some questionable assertions.6 -
The question isn't whether you can gain muscle, btw all muscle is lean, or not. The question is whether keto is a good way to do that. The answer is that it's not. You don't need carbs to gain muscle but they help as they spare protein from gluconeogenesis and allow the body to use it for muscle building.
Additionally, if you are ingesting enough protein for muscle growth it will kick you into gluconeogeneis and that will likely kick you out of ketosis. Keto is just sub optimal. If it worked well, people in athletics and body building would be doing and they're not.
That's arguable. It is not widely accepted that gluconeogenesis is protein driven but rather driven by glucose needs (brain, RBCs, etc) which tends to drop the longer one follows a ketogenic diet. Glucose can also be derived from the glycerol backbone of fatty acids. Plus ketosis tends to be leucine sparing too.... I really hope this is researched more in the near future. <fingers crossed>
Anyways, very high protein diets may slightly lower your level of ketosis, but it generally is not a problem unless you are on a ketogenic diet for medical reasons (like epilepsy or dementia). Supplementing with MCT oil or exogenous ketones would ameliorate that.
I just think that the fact that a full-time ketogenic diet is not the most optimal way to eat while gaining muscle (CKD or TKD may be better), does not mean that is not not a "good" way to eat while gaining muscle. Simply because it is not "the best" does not mean it is poor. JMO
ETA there are a few following ketogains in the keto and Low Carber Daily MFP groups. And in ketogains.
Gaining muscle is hard and slow under optimal conditions. What would be "good" about doing it in a suboptimal (read harder and slower) way?
I know gaining muscle is work, but low carb is sometimes better for people. Consider those with insulin resistance or CVD. It is not always just about the muscle, or how fast one can bulk for everyone. Only the OP can decide what suits them best.And what peer reviewed studies do you have that support your contention of gluconeogenesis, eg, creating glucose from protein to meet the body's needs, would not interfere with ketosis? And why wouldn't glucose being derived from glycerol in fatty acids, if done in enough volume, also interfere with ketosis. These look like some questionable assertions.
What peer reviewed studies do you have to say gluconeogenesis does interfere with ketosis, as you are stating? If gluconeogenesis did interfere with ketosis, then no one eating very low carb with above adequate protein would be in ketosis.
Very high protein, well above 200g a day, may inhibit ketosis somewhat, which could affect those who need high ketones for medical reasons. It won't stop ketosis entirely. And it will not generally prevent the benefits that a low carb diet could present to some people, such as improved health or appetite control.
As I mentioned, gluconeogenesis appears to be demand driven, and not protein (or fatty acid) driven. The only time glucose in the blood will go too high when eating very low carb is for a T1D who is not taking insulin. Everyone else will be in some degree of ketosis, especially if they are active and following a ketogains plan. YMMV.
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The question isn't whether you can gain muscle, btw all muscle is lean, or not. The question is whether keto is a good way to do that. The answer is that it's not. You don't need carbs to gain muscle but they help as they spare protein from gluconeogenesis and allow the body to use it for muscle building.
Additionally, if you are ingesting enough protein for muscle growth it will kick you into gluconeogeneis and that will likely kick you out of ketosis. Keto is just sub optimal. If it worked well, people in athletics and body building would be doing and they're not.
That's arguable. It is not widely accepted that gluconeogenesis is protein driven but rather driven by glucose needs (brain, RBCs, etc) which tends to drop the longer one follows a ketogenic diet. Glucose can also be derived from the glycerol backbone of fatty acids. Plus ketosis tends to be leucine sparing too.... I really hope this is researched more in the near future. <fingers crossed>
Anyways, very high protein diets may slightly lower your level of ketosis, but it generally is not a problem unless you are on a ketogenic diet for medical reasons (like epilepsy or dementia). Supplementing with MCT oil or exogenous ketones would ameliorate that.
I just think that the fact that a full-time ketogenic diet is not the most optimal way to eat while gaining muscle (CKD or TKD may be better), does not mean that is not not a "good" way to eat while gaining muscle. Simply because it is not "the best" does not mean it is poor. JMO
ETA there are a few following ketogains in the keto and Low Carber Daily MFP groups. And in ketogains.
Gaining muscle is hard and slow under optimal conditions. What would be "good" about doing it in a suboptimal (read harder and slower) way?
And what peer reviewed studies do you have that support your contention of gluconeogenesis, eg, creating glucose from protein to meet the body's needs, would not interfere with ketosis? And why wouldn't glucose being derived from glycerol in fatty acids, if done in enough volume, also interfere with ketosis. These look like some questionable assertions.
I can't think of one reason why someone would decide to do it the suboptimal route unless they had I.R.
Sans any medical condition,I just don't see why someone would decide to take the keto route unless they where already indoctrinated into the whole keto is life mindset and believed it was some superior way of eating. For those people who treat it like it's a way of life, they'll recommend keto for everything and anything and imo should be ignored. I once saw a guy try to say that calories don't matter on keto, that it cures a host of ailments and all these other unsubstantiated claims.
Being keto doesn't negate science. It's not a magical solution to health, weight control and overall well-being even though some believe otherwise ( Sans medical condition). The same rules still apply regardless that people don't want to admit it.
Why take the harder route if you don't have to?
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How are you deriving the 200g per day figure and would that apply to anyone not matter what their body weight or compostition? And you agree that high protein intake inhibits ketosis? Inhibits is probably a better description than "kicks you out of". So, I would concede that.Very high protein, well above 200g a day, may inhibit ketosis somewhat, which could affect those who need high ketones for medical reasons. It won't stop ketosis entirely. And it will not generally prevent the benefits that a low carb diet could present to some people, such as improved health or appetite control.
Again, "better" in what sense? The discussion is muscle building. Keto is demonstrably suboptimal. To bring in people that are IR or CVD is moving the goal posts. For those people, their priority is (or should be) managing their primary health condition and muscle gains are a secondary concern.I know gaining muscle is work, but low carb is sometimes better for people. Consider those with insulin resistance or CVD. It is not always just about the muscle, or how fast one can bulk for everyone. Only the OP can decide what suits them best.
So, for that group, I wouldn't call muscle building on keto "good". I would call it the only game they have and will likely not produce much. But no one, including the OP asked or stated anything about IR or CVD folks. That was you bringing your own agenda into the discussion.
To recap, a question was asked regarding ketogains. It was stated that it is a good way to build muscle. It is not. It is suboptimal.
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100_PROOF_ wrote: »The question isn't whether you can gain muscle, btw all muscle is lean, or not. The question is whether keto is a good way to do that. The answer is that it's not. You don't need carbs to gain muscle but they help as they spare protein from gluconeogenesis and allow the body to use it for muscle building.
Additionally, if you are ingesting enough protein for muscle growth it will kick you into gluconeogeneis and that will likely kick you out of ketosis. Keto is just sub optimal. If it worked well, people in athletics and body building would be doing and they're not.
That's arguable. It is not widely accepted that gluconeogenesis is protein driven but rather driven by glucose needs (brain, RBCs, etc) which tends to drop the longer one follows a ketogenic diet. Glucose can also be derived from the glycerol backbone of fatty acids. Plus ketosis tends to be leucine sparing too.... I really hope this is researched more in the near future. <fingers crossed>
Anyways, very high protein diets may slightly lower your level of ketosis, but it generally is not a problem unless you are on a ketogenic diet for medical reasons (like epilepsy or dementia). Supplementing with MCT oil or exogenous ketones would ameliorate that.
I just think that the fact that a full-time ketogenic diet is not the most optimal way to eat while gaining muscle (CKD or TKD may be better), does not mean that is not not a "good" way to eat while gaining muscle. Simply because it is not "the best" does not mean it is poor. JMO
ETA there are a few following ketogains in the keto and Low Carber Daily MFP groups. And in ketogains.
Gaining muscle is hard and slow under optimal conditions. What would be "good" about doing it in a suboptimal (read harder and slower) way?
And what peer reviewed studies do you have that support your contention of gluconeogenesis, eg, creating glucose from protein to meet the body's needs, would not interfere with ketosis? And why wouldn't glucose being derived from glycerol in fatty acids, if done in enough volume, also interfere with ketosis. These look like some questionable assertions.
I can't think of one reason why someone would decide to do it the suboptimal route unless they had I.R.
Sans any medical condition,I just don't see why someone would decide to take the keto route unless they where already indoctrinated into the whole keto is life mindset and believed it was some superior way of eating. For those people who treat it like it's a way of life, they'll recommend keto for everything and anything and imo should be ignored. I once saw a guy try to say that calories don't matter on keto, that it cures a host of ailments and all these other unsubstantiated claims.
Being keto doesn't negate science. It's not a magical solution to health, weight control and overall well-being even though some believe otherwise ( Sans medical condition). The same rules still apply regardless that people don't want to admit it.
Why take the harder route if you don't have to?
You'll get no argument from me on anything you've said above!1 -
100_PROOF_ wrote: »
I can't think of one reason why someone would decide to do it the suboptimal route unless they had I.R.
Sans any medical condition,I just don't see why someone would decide to take the keto route unless they where already indoctrinated into the whole keto is life mindset and believed it was some superior way of eating. For those people who treat it like it's a way of life, they'll recommend keto for everything and anything and imo should be ignored. I once saw a guy try to say that calories don't matter on keto, that it cures a host of ailments and all these other unsubstantiated claims.
Being keto doesn't negate science. It's not a magical solution to health, weight control and overall well-being even though some believe otherwise ( Sans medical condition). The same rules still apply regardless that people don't want to admit it.
Why take the harder route if you don't have to?
Keto has its science, it just depends on whether or not you're interested in looking into it. I and many others who treat it as a way of life don't go around dictating it as the one and only way for someone to resolve their nutritional / medical problems. Everybody has a diet that has worked for them, and some want to help others. The problem is nutrition conforms to the individual's body; humans have too much physiological and physical variance for there to be one diet that is supreme. What may work for one half of the population, may not work for the other for a wide variety of reasons - physical activity being one, which is actually the topic of this thread.
In terms of gaining muscle, I've found better results when taking BCAAs and having my workouts consist of short reps with heavy weights. Check out this video about key nutrients in building muscle:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_VFWscxj34
Dr. Eric Berg is very Keto friendly so you might find some other cool tips on his youtube channel:
https://www.youtube.com/user/drericberg123/videos
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TyTravis007 wrote: »100_PROOF_ wrote: »
I can't think of one reason why someone would decide to do it the suboptimal route unless they had I.R.
Sans any medical condition,I just don't see why someone would decide to take the keto route unless they where already indoctrinated into the whole keto is life mindset and believed it was some superior way of eating. For those people who treat it like it's a way of life, they'll recommend keto for everything and anything and imo should be ignored. I once saw a guy try to say that calories don't matter on keto, that it cures a host of ailments and all these other unsubstantiated claims.
Being keto doesn't negate science. It's not a magical solution to health, weight control and overall well-being even though some believe otherwise ( Sans medical condition). The same rules still apply regardless that people don't want to admit it.
Why take the harder route if you don't have to?
Keto has its science, it just depends on whether or not you're interested in looking into it. I and many others who treat it as a way of life don't go around dictating it as the one and only way for someone to resolve their nutritional / medical problems. Everybody has a diet that has worked for them, and some want to help others. The problem is nutrition conforms to the individual's body; humans have too much physiological and physical variance for there to be one diet that is supreme. What may work for one half of the population, may not work for the other for a wide variety of reasons - physical activity being one, which is actually the topic of this thread.
In terms of gaining muscle, I've found better results when taking BCAAs and having my workouts consist of short reps with heavy weights. Check out this video about key nutrients in building muscle:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_VFWscxj34
Dr. Eric Berg is very Keto friendly so you might find some other cool tips on his youtube channel:
https://www.youtube.com/user/drericberg123/videos
Studies and a scholarly article showing that BCAA supplementation does nothing.
1) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27175106
2) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22451437
3) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20110810
4) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15930475
5) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25429252/
6) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26388782/
7) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28444456
8) http://www.mdpi.com/2075-4663/5/2/36
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Studies and a scholarly article showing that BCAA supplementation does nothing.
1) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27175106
2) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22451437
3) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20110810
4) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15930475
5) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25429252/
6) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26388782/
7) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28444456
8) http://www.mdpi.com/2075-4663/5/2/36
Did you even read the studies? Or did you google scholarly articles and compiled a list of links to call it a counter- argument? I'm going to make an example through one of which you've "cited."
First Study: The data do not seem to support a benefit to BCAA supplementation during periods of caloric restriction
ABSTRACT
"J Int Soc Sports Nutr 13:1-015-0112-9, 2016 describe the efficacy of branched chain amino acid (BCAA) supplementation and resistance training for maintaining lean body mass during a calorie-restricted diet, and claim that this occurs with concurrent losses in fat mass. However, the reported results appear to be at odds with the data presented on changes in fat mass. This letter discusses the issues with the paper."
CONCLUSION
"Heavy resistance training without adequate calories to maintain lean mass will inevitably send the body into a catabolic state, as evidenced in this study by the loss in body mass, both fat and lean, in the CHO group."
Ironically, that same study reports that those who take BCAAs have actually lost fat mass while having a caloric deficit. I'm sure this table looks familiar to you:
Also ironically, the same study reports that those who take BCAAs have actually slightly lost, retained, or slightly gained lean tissue (muscle without fat) while at a caloric deficit. This is while those who took CHO (the placebo) lost it. I'm sure this table looks familiar as well:
That study isn't even relevant to keto (we don't deprive ourselves of calories), BCAAs, and gaining muscle mass.
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TyTravis007 wrote: »100_PROOF_ wrote: »
I can't think of one reason why someone would decide to do it the suboptimal route unless they had I.R.
Sans any medical condition,I just don't see why someone would decide to take the keto route unless they where already indoctrinated into the whole keto is life mindset and believed it was some superior way of eating. For those people who treat it like it's a way of life, they'll recommend keto for everything and anything and imo should be ignored. I once saw a guy try to say that calories don't matter on keto, that it cures a host of ailments and all these other unsubstantiated claims.
Being keto doesn't negate science. It's not a magical solution to health, weight control and overall well-being even though some believe otherwise ( Sans medical condition). The same rules still apply regardless that people don't want to admit it.
Why take the harder route if you don't have to?
Keto has its science, it just depends on whether or not you're interested in looking into it. I and many others who treat it as a way of life don't go around dictating it as the one and only way for someone to resolve their nutritional / medical problems. Everybody has a diet that has worked for them, and some want to help others. The problem is nutrition conforms to the individual's body; humans have too much physiological and physical variance for there to be one diet that is supreme. What may work for one half of the population, may not work for the other for a wide variety of reasons - physical activity being one, which is actually the topic of this thread.
In terms of gaining muscle, I've found better results when taking BCAAs and having my workouts consist of short reps with heavy weights. Check out this video about key nutrients in building muscle:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_VFWscxj34
Dr. Eric Berg is very Keto friendly so you might find some other cool tips on his youtube channel:
https://www.youtube.com/user/drericberg123/videos
Studies and a scholarly article showing that BCAA supplementation does nothing.
1) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27175106
2) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22451437
3) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20110810
4) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15930475
5) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25429252/
6) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26388782/
7) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28444456
8) http://www.mdpi.com/2075-4663/5/2/36
And one more to add: https://jissn.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12970-017-0184-9
But I guess if one buys into a sub-optimal diet for muscle gain (keto), it's not a stretch to buy into sub-optimal/ineffective supplement (BCAA) as well.4 -
And one more to add: https://jissn.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12970-017-0184-9
But I guess if one buys into a sub-optimal diet for muscle gain (keto), it's not a stretch to buy into sub-optimal/ineffective supplementation as well.
A flaw I see in your study is that sample size is too small to generalize an entire population:
Louard et al. [13] used the forearm balance method to quantify the response to the intravenous infusion of a mixture of BCAAs for 3 h in 10 post-absorptive subjects.
Similar results were obtained by the same investigators when they extended the infusion of BCAA to 16 h in 8 normal volunteers and determined if chronic elevation of BCAAs stimulated muscle protein synthesis [14].
The key word in that study is BCAAs ALONE. It concludes that taking BCAAs alone has no contribution, but it does support that BCAAs actually enhances anabolism if there is protein involved in the meal. As quoted directly from your study:
BCAAs may enhance the anabolic effect of a protein meal. For example, the addition of 5 g of BCAAs to a beverage containing 6.25 g whey protein increased muscle protein synthesis to a level comparable to that induced by 25 g of whey protein [23].
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How are you deriving the 200g per day figure and would that apply to anyone not matter what their body weight or compostition? And you agree that high protein intake inhibits ketosis? Inhibits is probably a better description than "kicks you out of". So, I would concede that.Very high protein, well above 200g a day, may inhibit ketosis somewhat, which could affect those who need high ketones for medical reasons. It won't stop ketosis entirely. And it will not generally prevent the benefits that a low carb diet could present to some people, such as improved health or appetite control.
I have the 200g number from people's experience (n=1) and from some reading. I did not say it applies to everyone. For men, ketones seem to go down (inhibited) at over 230+g, but for women ketones being inhibited happens at a lower intake.
Inhibit does not mean "kicks you out of" ketosis. It means the levels of ketones are lower. For someone with metabolic issues, high protein, with the higher end of carbs known to work for ketosis (50g), may be more likely to slow ketosis to very low levels, but in terms of highly active and athletic people, it is not.
Ketosis is not black and white. There are levels. High protein does not suddenly turn it off.
Again, "better" in what sense? The discussion is muscle building. Keto is demonstrably suboptimal. To bring in people that are IR or CVD is moving the goal posts. For those people, their priority is (or should be) managing their primary health condition and muscle gains are a secondary concern.I know gaining muscle is work, but low carb is sometimes better for people. Consider those with insulin resistance or CVD. It is not always just about the muscle, or how fast one can bulk for everyone. Only the OP can decide what suits them best.
So, for that group, I wouldn't call muscle building on keto "good". I would call it the only game they have and will likely not produce much. But no one, including the OP asked or stated anything about IR or CVD folks. That was you bringing your own agenda into the discussion.
To recap, a question was asked regarding ketogains. It was stated that it is a good way to build muscle. It is not. It is suboptimal.
There really is nothing to say to this. You appear believe suboptimal (meaning not the best) means not good. I disagree with that definition.
Mentioning IR and CVD was not part of my "agenda". LOL Not gaining at the fastest speed possible is not in everyone's best interest. For them, using low carb while lifting might be best. They may choose to use CKD, or TKD or stay low carb at all times. As I said, only the OP can decide what is best for them - I did assume ketosis holds some draw for them since this is a ketogains thread.
Saying only a higher carb diet is good for gains because it is the best seems short sighted in the least.
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TyTravis007 wrote: »
And one more to add: https://jissn.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12970-017-0184-9
But I guess if one buys into a sub-optimal diet for muscle gain (keto), it's not a stretch to buy into sub-optimal/ineffective supplementation as well.
A flaw I see in your study is that sample size is too small to generalize an entire population:
Louard et al. [13] used the forearm balance method to quantify the response to the intravenous infusion of a mixture of BCAAs for 3 h in 10 post-absorptive subjects.
Similar results were obtained by the same investigators when they extended the infusion of BCAA to 16 h in 8 normal volunteers and determined if chronic elevation of BCAAs stimulated muscle protein synthesis [14].
The key word in that study is BCAAs ALONE. It concludes that taking BCAAs alone has no contribution, but it does support that BCAAs actually enhances anabolism if there is protein involved in the meal. As quoted directly from your study:
BCAAs may enhance the anabolic effect of a protein meal. For example, the addition of 5 g of BCAAs to a beverage containing 6.25 g whey protein increased muscle protein synthesis to a level comparable to that induced by 25 g of whey protein [23].
You do understand that when you take in protein, you take in BCAAs, right? That they're part of the composition of whole protein?2 -
You do understand that when you take in protein, you take in BCAAs, right? That they're part of the composition of whole protein?
Correct. The study is regarding the use of BCAA supplements, not protein intake in general. My point is it mainly regards taking the supplement alone (which shows that there wasn't a benefit), versus taking it with a protein meal (by which there was a benefit).
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Also, cherry-picking from studies is a very misleading tactic. Let's examine the text immediately following the part you referred to above:This result suggests that one or more of the BCAAs might be rate limiting for the stimulation of muscle protein synthesis by whey protein, or that the extra BCAAs induced a greater potential for an anabolic response of muscle to whey protein by activating the initiation factors. In either case, the response of BCAAs in conjunction with intact protein is a different issue that the effect of BCAAs alone, since the intact protein provides all of the EAAs necessary to produce an intact protein.2
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And the study's conclusion:Conclusion
A physiologically-significant increase in the rate of muscle protein synthesis requires adequate availability of all amino acid precursors. The source of EAAs for muscle protein synthesis in the post-absorptive state is the free intracellular pool. Intracellular free EAAs that are available for incorporation into protein are derived from muscle protein breakdown. Under normal conditions about 70% of EAAs released by muscle protein breakdown are reincorporated into muscle protein. The efficiency of reincorporation of EAAs from protein breakdown back into muscle protein can only be increased to a limited extent. For this fundamental reason, a dietary supplement of BCAAs alone cannot support an increased rate of muscle protein synthesis. The availability of the other EAAs will rapidly become rate limiting for accelerated protein synthesis. Consistent with this perspective, the few studies in human subjects have reported decreases, rather than increases, in muscle protein synthesis after intake of BCAAs. We conclude that dietary BCAA supplements alone do not promote muscle anabolism.3 -
Also, cherry-picking from studies is a very misleading tactic. Let's examine the text immediately following the part you referred to above:This result suggests that one or more of the BCAAs might be rate limiting for the stimulation of muscle protein synthesis by whey protein, or that the extra BCAAs induced a greater potential for an anabolic response of muscle to whey protein by activating the initiation factors. In either case, the response of BCAAs in conjunction with intact protein is a different issue that the effect of BCAAs alone, since the intact protein provides all of the EAAs necessary to produce an intact protein.
the response of BCAAs in conjunction with intact protein is a different issue that the effect of BCAAs alone
So what is the relevance of that study in terms of this topic (muscle gain while on keto with increased protein intake and taking BCAAs)? I never said that taking BCAAs alone or while in a caloric deficit is beneficial, did I?1 -
Also, cherry-picking from studies is a very misleading tactic. Let's examine the text immediately following the part you referred to above:This result suggests that one or more of the BCAAs might be rate limiting for the stimulation of muscle protein synthesis by whey protein, or that the extra BCAAs induced a greater potential for an anabolic response of muscle to whey protein by activating the initiation factors. In either case, the response of BCAAs in conjunction with intact protein is a different issue that the effect of BCAAs alone, since the intact protein provides all of the EAAs necessary to produce an intact protein.
Yes, which is the very point of why supplementation is useless. If getting adequate protein, the BCAAs don't do much.1 -
TyTravis007 wrote: »Also, cherry-picking from studies is a very misleading tactic. Let's examine the text immediately following the part you referred to above:This result suggests that one or more of the BCAAs might be rate limiting for the stimulation of muscle protein synthesis by whey protein, or that the extra BCAAs induced a greater potential for an anabolic response of muscle to whey protein by activating the initiation factors. In either case, the response of BCAAs in conjunction with intact protein is a different issue that the effect of BCAAs alone, since the intact protein provides all of the EAAs necessary to produce an intact protein.
the response of BCAAs in conjunction with intact protein is a different issue that the effect of BCAAs alone
So what is the relevance of that study in terms of this topic (muscle gain while on keto with increased protein intake and taking BCAAs)? I never said that taking BCAAs alone or while in a caloric deficit is beneficial, did I?
There is no relevance to keto. You are the one that raised it. You'd have to answer that.1 -
Also, cherry-picking from studies is a very misleading tactic. Let's examine the text immediately following the part you referred to above:This result suggests that one or more of the BCAAs might be rate limiting for the stimulation of muscle protein synthesis by whey protein, or that the extra BCAAs induced a greater potential for an anabolic response of muscle to whey protein by activating the initiation factors. In either case, the response of BCAAs in conjunction with intact protein is a different issue that the effect of BCAAs alone, since the intact protein provides all of the EAAs necessary to produce an intact protein.
Yes, which is the very point of why supplementation is useless. If getting adequate protein, the BCAAs don't do much.
Correct. If one is going to supplement an inadequate protein intake, why not supplement with intact proteins (such as whey, etc.) instead? And if one already has adequate protein intake, BCAAs will do nothing - except possibly be rate limiting for MPS, which is kinda counterproductive.
Rather than supplement a 6.25g dose of protein (pffffttt) with 5g of BCAA, why not just take 25g of whey and be done with it? Then you're getting plenty of all the BCAAs and EAAs.
I wouldn't even waste the effort and dirty a cup/spoon to mix a beverage supplement containing 6.25g of protein. Let alone the extra effort to spoon 5g of BCAAs into it. Compounding (essentially) nothing with nothing still equals nothing.1 -
Also, cherry-picking from studies is a very misleading tactic. Let's examine the text immediately following the part you referred to above:This result suggests that one or more of the BCAAs might be rate limiting for the stimulation of muscle protein synthesis by whey protein, or that the extra BCAAs induced a greater potential for an anabolic response of muscle to whey protein by activating the initiation factors. In either case, the response of BCAAs in conjunction with intact protein is a different issue that the effect of BCAAs alone, since the intact protein provides all of the EAAs necessary to produce an intact protein.
Yes, which is the very point of why supplementation is useless. If getting adequate protein, the BCAAs don't do much.
Correct. If one is going to supplement an inadequate protein intake, why not supplement with intact proteins (such as whey, etc.) instead? And if one already has adequate protein intake, BCAAs will do nothing - except possibly be rate limiting for MPS, which is kinda counterproductive.
Exactly!0 -
Yes, which is the very point of why supplementation is useless. If getting adequate protein, the BCAAs don't do much.
Again, I never said taking BCAAs alone is beneficial. I'll just leave a few studies for you guys to take a look at if you're interested:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3313152/
Ingestion of a supplement containing BCAAs while following an 8-week resistance training program resulted in a greater decrease in percent body fat, an increase in lean mass, and 10-RM strength gains on the bench press and squat vs. ingestion of a whey supplement or a sports drink. In addition, the ingestion of a whey protein supplement resulted in greater lean mass gains than ingestion of a sports drink.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5461297/
the ingestion of BCAAs alone, without the concurrent ingestion of other EAA, intact protein or other macronutrients, increases the stimulation of mTORC1 activity and myofibrillar-MPS following exercise in resistance-trained young men. Our data support the notion that BCAA ingestion alone does not maximally stimulate myofibrillar-MPS following exercise despite stimulation of translation initiation pathways. The lack of sufficient EAA appears to limit the response of myofibrillar-MPS following exercise. Thus, whereas our data clearly show that BCAA ingestion activates cell-signaling pathways that result in increased myofibrillar-MPS, ingestion of BCAAs alone may not be the optimal nutritional regimen to stimulate a maximal MPS response to resistance exercise training.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK209312/ - this one is more focused on mental health and BCAA use.
Leucine and other essential amino acids are necessary, and their benefit in increasing protein synthesis and lean body mass is well documented.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4974864/
In conclusion, the combined supplementation of BCAA, arginine, and citrulline could enhance endurance performance in two consecutive days in college runners. This supplementation could be used in multi-day competitions that are common for endurance athletes. The potential mechanisms responsible for the ergogenic effect include the alleviation of central fatigue by BCAA and the prevention of hyperammonemia through increased urea genesis by arginine and citrulline.
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The point being, with adequate protein intake, who needs 'em. No real benefit. Majoring in the minors.
And, in your post that began this discussion, you stated you used BCAAs. Maybe you could have been clearer on context. Maybe we can just chalk that up to keto brain fog?1 -
TyTravis007 wrote: »
Reread that carefully and please point out where the OP mentions BCAAs.1 -
At this point, I'm going to agree to disagree. I apologize @piascore if I caused the deviation in the topic you intended this thread to have. I only meant to suggest trying out BCAAs and checking out Dr. Berg's video as both have benefited me in gaining muscle while on keto. I hope that my posts here were, at the very least, helpful in some way to you!
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