Ketogains

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  • TyTravis007
    TyTravis007 Posts: 77 Member
    edited February 2018
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    AnvilHead wrote: »
    Also, cherry-picking from studies is a very misleading tactic. Let's examine the text immediately following the part you referred to above:
    This result suggests that one or more of the BCAAs might be rate limiting for the stimulation of muscle protein synthesis by whey protein, or that the extra BCAAs induced a greater potential for an anabolic response of muscle to whey protein by activating the initiation factors. In either case, the response of BCAAs in conjunction with intact protein is a different issue that the effect of BCAAs alone, since the intact protein provides all of the EAAs necessary to produce an intact protein.

    the response of BCAAs in conjunction with intact protein is a different issue that the effect of BCAAs alone

    So what is the relevance of that study in terms of this topic (muscle gain while on keto with increased protein intake and taking BCAAs)? I never said that taking BCAAs alone or while in a caloric deficit is beneficial, did I?
  • mmapags
    mmapags Posts: 8,934 Member
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    AnvilHead wrote: »
    Also, cherry-picking from studies is a very misleading tactic. Let's examine the text immediately following the part you referred to above:
    This result suggests that one or more of the BCAAs might be rate limiting for the stimulation of muscle protein synthesis by whey protein, or that the extra BCAAs induced a greater potential for an anabolic response of muscle to whey protein by activating the initiation factors. In either case, the response of BCAAs in conjunction with intact protein is a different issue that the effect of BCAAs alone, since the intact protein provides all of the EAAs necessary to produce an intact protein.

    Yes, which is the very point of why supplementation is useless. If getting adequate protein, the BCAAs don't do much.
  • mmapags
    mmapags Posts: 8,934 Member
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    TyTravis007 wrote: »
    AnvilHead wrote: »
    Also, cherry-picking from studies is a very misleading tactic. Let's examine the text immediately following the part you referred to above:
    This result suggests that one or more of the BCAAs might be rate limiting for the stimulation of muscle protein synthesis by whey protein, or that the extra BCAAs induced a greater potential for an anabolic response of muscle to whey protein by activating the initiation factors. In either case, the response of BCAAs in conjunction with intact protein is a different issue that the effect of BCAAs alone, since the intact protein provides all of the EAAs necessary to produce an intact protein.

    the response of BCAAs in conjunction with intact protein is a different issue that the effect of BCAAs alone

    So what is the relevance of that study in terms of this topic (muscle gain while on keto with increased protein intake and taking BCAAs)? I never said that taking BCAAs alone or while in a caloric deficit is beneficial, did I?

    There is no relevance to keto. You are the one that raised it. You'd have to answer that.
  • AnvilHead
    AnvilHead Posts: 18,344 Member
    edited February 2018
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    mmapags wrote: »
    AnvilHead wrote: »
    Also, cherry-picking from studies is a very misleading tactic. Let's examine the text immediately following the part you referred to above:
    This result suggests that one or more of the BCAAs might be rate limiting for the stimulation of muscle protein synthesis by whey protein, or that the extra BCAAs induced a greater potential for an anabolic response of muscle to whey protein by activating the initiation factors. In either case, the response of BCAAs in conjunction with intact protein is a different issue that the effect of BCAAs alone, since the intact protein provides all of the EAAs necessary to produce an intact protein.

    Yes, which is the very point of why supplementation is useless. If getting adequate protein, the BCAAs don't do much.

    Correct. If one is going to supplement an inadequate protein intake, why not supplement with intact proteins (such as whey, etc.) instead? And if one already has adequate protein intake, BCAAs will do nothing - except possibly be rate limiting for MPS, which is kinda counterproductive.

    Rather than supplement a 6.25g dose of protein (pffffttt) with 5g of BCAA, why not just take 25g of whey and be done with it? Then you're getting plenty of all the BCAAs and EAAs.

    I wouldn't even waste the effort and dirty a cup/spoon to mix a beverage supplement containing 6.25g of protein. Let alone the extra effort to spoon 5g of BCAAs into it. Compounding (essentially) nothing with nothing still equals nothing.
  • mmapags
    mmapags Posts: 8,934 Member
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    AnvilHead wrote: »
    mmapags wrote: »
    AnvilHead wrote: »
    Also, cherry-picking from studies is a very misleading tactic. Let's examine the text immediately following the part you referred to above:
    This result suggests that one or more of the BCAAs might be rate limiting for the stimulation of muscle protein synthesis by whey protein, or that the extra BCAAs induced a greater potential for an anabolic response of muscle to whey protein by activating the initiation factors. In either case, the response of BCAAs in conjunction with intact protein is a different issue that the effect of BCAAs alone, since the intact protein provides all of the EAAs necessary to produce an intact protein.

    Yes, which is the very point of why supplementation is useless. If getting adequate protein, the BCAAs don't do much.

    Correct. If one is going to supplement an inadequate protein intake, why not supplement with intact proteins (such as whey, etc.) instead? And if one already has adequate protein intake, BCAAs will do nothing - except possibly be rate limiting for MPS, which is kinda counterproductive.

    Exactly!
  • TyTravis007
    TyTravis007 Posts: 77 Member
    edited February 2018
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    mmapags wrote: »

    There is no relevance to keto. You are the one that raised it. You'd have to answer that.

    HRdJJv3.jpg

    That is the OP.
  • mmapags
    mmapags Posts: 8,934 Member
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    The point being, with adequate protein intake, who needs 'em. No real benefit. Majoring in the minors.

    And, in your post that began this discussion, you stated you used BCAAs. Maybe you could have been clearer on context. Maybe we can just chalk that up to keto brain fog?
  • mmapags
    mmapags Posts: 8,934 Member
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    TyTravis007 wrote: »
    mmapags wrote: »

    There is no relevance to keto. You are the one that raised it. You'd have to answer that.

    HRdJJv3.jpg

    That is the OP.

    Reread that carefully and please point out where the OP mentions BCAAs.
  • russelljam08
    russelljam08 Posts: 167 Member
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    TyTravis007 wrote: »
    At this point, I'm going to agree to disagree. I apologize @piascore if I caused the deviation in the topic you intended this thread to have. I only meant to suggest trying out BCAAs and checking out Dr. Berg's video as both have benefited me in gaining muscle while on keto. I hope that my posts here were, at the very least, helpful in some way to you! :)

    LOL Dr. Berg is a fraking Chiropractor and a reported scam artist. No wonder your *info is so misinformed
  • russelljam08
    russelljam08 Posts: 167 Member
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    cwolfman13 wrote: »
    Insulin is pretty important to muscle growth...just sayin'
    Yup, which is why pro bodybuilders who do keto to 'cut' have to up the doses of certain drugs to retain the muscle they built in the offseason.............muscle they built eating huge amounts of carbs
  • AnvilHead
    AnvilHead Posts: 18,344 Member
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    russelljam08 wrote: »
    cwolfman13 wrote: »
    Insulin is pretty important to muscle growth...just sayin'
    Yup, which is why pro bodybuilders who do keto to 'cut' have to up the doses of certain drugs to retain the muscle they built in the offseason.............muscle they built eating huge amounts of carbs

    Which is an important and often overlooked aspect of the discussion. When you're taking the kind of drug stacks many bodybuilders do, you'll get results on any diet.
  • mmapags
    mmapags Posts: 8,934 Member
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    russelljam08 wrote: »
    TyTravis007 wrote: »
    At this point, I'm going to agree to disagree. I apologize @piascore if I caused the deviation in the topic you intended this thread to have. I only meant to suggest trying out BCAAs and checking out Dr. Berg's video as both have benefited me in gaining muscle while on keto. I hope that my posts here were, at the very least, helpful in some way to you! :)

    LOL Dr. Berg is a fraking Chiropractor and a reported scam artist. No wonder your *info is so misinformed

    Exactly! One of my points and reasons why keto would be suboptimal. Short of a health condition improved by keto, which would be the no. 1 priotity, I can't imagine a scenario where someone would want to gain muscle but do it in a less than optimal way. But hey, I'm sure there's someone out there......
  • AnvilHead
    AnvilHead Posts: 18,344 Member
    edited February 2018
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    russelljam08 wrote: »
    TyTravis007 wrote: »
    At this point, I'm going to agree to disagree. I apologize @piascore if I caused the deviation in the topic you intended this thread to have. I only meant to suggest trying out BCAAs and checking out Dr. Berg's video as both have benefited me in gaining muscle while on keto. I hope that my posts here were, at the very least, helpful in some way to you! :)

    LOL Dr. Berg is a fraking Chiropractor and a reported scam artist. No wonder your *info is so misinformed

    Taking nutrition info from a chiropractor is about like trusting a podiatrist to do your vasectomy.

    But True Believers gonna believe.....
  • Keto_Vampire
    Keto_Vampire Posts: 1,670 Member
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    Nothing wrong with this variation of keto; this is commonly used by bodybuilders during prep/cut phases. However, this type of diet is sustainable with the right macro set up.

    Too much soak everything in fat from the keto purists...this is a more targeted way of tracking kcals (because they do matter despite what some people believe).

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