Anyone into gut health?
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Read the book "Clean Gut". Eat the right combination of foods, take the list of probiotics, and find out what foods are toxic to your system.19
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Its good to read others are taking gut health seriously. For some of us its been the foundation to getting our health to a better place.5
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I’m an extreme sceptic, but I do take a couple of teaspoons of Inulin most days. I tried it after a BBC prog said it can be good for insomnia. The first day I tried it, I got 8 hours sleep for the first time in nearly 3 months.
I’ve been taking it since. Still get the odd night of bad sleep but nothing like before.
I’ve no idea if my gut health is better, but i feel fine and I’m regular. The only side-effect I’ve found is that I fart more, but thankfully my farts don’t smell. :-)2 -
mortuseon_ wrote: »kommodevaran wrote: »I have a gut feeling there's a lot of woo to it. Reducing stress and anxiety, and thereby emotional eating, and getting in some kind of meal schedule, can do wonders for your weight, and getting in some kind of meal schedule, and losing excess weight, can do wonders with your stress and anxiety. Feeling that what you're doing, is right and important, is a powerful drive to keep doing it.
I’ve done some microbiome research and am inclined to agree. Although there is compelling evidence that the microbiome does interact a lot with host health, the evidence for probiotics working in a sustained way is much less clear, plus the developmental time point seems like it could be important as well. I think there might be some truth in the claims that certain microbial functions are beneficial, but it’ll be much less simple than people think. One thing that seems beneficial for many people is to eat more fibre - but then, that was a recommendation before all the microbiota hype...
There is actually a lot of research going on in this topic and it is not as much "woo" as it once was. There have been new studies showing fecal transplants (to alter someone's microbiome) has led to cure of many diseases from cancers to arthritis. We really just do not know enough about it yet. Only 5% of the bacteria are culturable in our gut, and the ones that aren't culturable can be identified, but are not well studied since they cannot be cultured. We really do not know exactly how they impact the body. Bacteria can metabolize products, which can produce fats that we can absorb, they can release proteins, neurotransmitters, etc. It was just in the past decade that they actually began to use fecal transplants as treatments. I expect a lot more published research in the next few decades.
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kommodevaran wrote: »I have a gut feeling there's a lot of woo to it. Reducing stress and anxiety, and thereby emotional eating, and getting in some kind of meal schedule, can do wonders for your weight, and getting in some kind of meal schedule, and losing excess weight, can do wonders with your stress and anxiety. Feeling that what you're doing, is right and important, is a powerful drive to keep doing it.
I pretty much agree with this -- so much of this stuff is placebo, and what I've found is that when I'm not eating well for a while and, especially, eating in an unstructured, out of control way, I feel bad. Not just digestive stuff, but it affects my mood, sleep, so on. When I first get back on track, I tend to feel immediately great and so much happier and more energetic too. At one point I'd attribute whatever I changed (eating breakfast, cutting out added sugar, so on), but now I have more awareness that a lot of it is just feeling in control. That said, sometimes doing something (like thinking "I'm focusing on gut health" or "I'm eating low carb" or any number of things) can make it easier to do the things that need to be done -- like eating better, the right amount, on a schedule if you are someone that works for -- than just focusing on those things. Beats me why, but it's like how people could just cook more from scratch and eat vegetables, but some people need to say they are "doing W30" or something to make those steps that seem more like common sense.
Despite all this, I do think it makes sense to think some about the gut biome, but most of the difference seems to be based on overall diet, not adding probiotics, and so I'd think the absolute first step ought to be just trying to eat healthfully, a wide variety of plant foods, plenty of fiber.
Beyond that I think fermented foods and the like may well be good for us and also taste good, so I include those.
I've never done a real test (eating poorly and too much but including probiotics vs. eating poorly and too much without them; eating well but with no fermented foods vs. eating well but with them). My guess is there would be no noticeable difference, but there's no reason not to consume yogurt if you eat dairy, and sauerkraut and use vinegars (that come with the mother) in cooking, and drink kombucha and so on, if you enjoy those things. I've been planning to start making some of my own; have that Wild Fermentation book and think it would be fun.9 -
Noreenmarie1234 wrote: »mortuseon_ wrote: »kommodevaran wrote: »I have a gut feeling there's a lot of woo to it. Reducing stress and anxiety, and thereby emotional eating, and getting in some kind of meal schedule, can do wonders for your weight, and getting in some kind of meal schedule, and losing excess weight, can do wonders with your stress and anxiety. Feeling that what you're doing, is right and important, is a powerful drive to keep doing it.
I’ve done some microbiome research and am inclined to agree. Although there is compelling evidence that the microbiome does interact a lot with host health, the evidence for probiotics working in a sustained way is much less clear, plus the developmental time point seems like it could be important as well. I think there might be some truth in the claims that certain microbial functions are beneficial, but it’ll be much less simple than people think. One thing that seems beneficial for many people is to eat more fibre - but then, that was a recommendation before all the microbiota hype...
There is actually a lot of research going on in this topic and it is not as much "woo" as it once was. There have been new studies showing fecal transplants (to alter someone's microbiome) has led to cure of many diseases from cancers to arthritis. We really just do not know enough about it yet. Only 5% of the bacteria are culturable in our gut, and the ones that aren't culturable can be identified, but are not well studied since they cannot be cultured. We really do not know exactly how they impact the body. Bacteria can metabolize products, which can produce fats that we can absorb, they can release proteins, neurotransmitters, etc. It was just in the past decade that they actually began to use fecal transplants as treatments. I expect a lot more published research in the next few decades.
I know they use fecal transplants to get rid of c dif and help (not cure) UC but never heard of it curing cancer and other diseases. Can you give me the link to those studies? Sounds interesting
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N=1 here
I'll try to make this not too gross, but when I ate a diet consisting mostly of traditional "junk" foods... highly processed, fast food, etc. My digestive system was a complete wreck. Yes I ate a few "healthy" things as well but the majority of my food was processed. I had been this way for so long I thought it was normal to deal with bloating, cramping, and quick access to the bathroom after every meal. In an attempt to lose some weight myself and be supportive of my gf at the time in her weight loss, we started "cleaning up" our diets. More whole foods, much much less junk. What I found went WAY beyond the weight loss part of things. My digestive system started functioning properly. It was amazing. I also had more sustained energy throughout the day. It was this impact that will forever keep me eating a diet of mostly whole foods with very little processed junk and no fast food.6 -
Thank you for all of the helpful responses! It’s great to see that other people out there take gut health seriously. (:0
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singingflutelady wrote: »Noreenmarie1234 wrote: »mortuseon_ wrote: »kommodevaran wrote: »I have a gut feeling there's a lot of woo to it. Reducing stress and anxiety, and thereby emotional eating, and getting in some kind of meal schedule, can do wonders for your weight, and getting in some kind of meal schedule, and losing excess weight, can do wonders with your stress and anxiety. Feeling that what you're doing, is right and important, is a powerful drive to keep doing it.
I’ve done some microbiome research and am inclined to agree. Although there is compelling evidence that the microbiome does interact a lot with host health, the evidence for probiotics working in a sustained way is much less clear, plus the developmental time point seems like it could be important as well. I think there might be some truth in the claims that certain microbial functions are beneficial, but it’ll be much less simple than people think. One thing that seems beneficial for many people is to eat more fibre - but then, that was a recommendation before all the microbiota hype...
There is actually a lot of research going on in this topic and it is not as much "woo" as it once was. There have been new studies showing fecal transplants (to alter someone's microbiome) has led to cure of many diseases from cancers to arthritis. We really just do not know enough about it yet. Only 5% of the bacteria are culturable in our gut, and the ones that aren't culturable can be identified, but are not well studied since they cannot be cultured. We really do not know exactly how they impact the body. Bacteria can metabolize products, which can produce fats that we can absorb, they can release proteins, neurotransmitters, etc. It was just in the past decade that they actually began to use fecal transplants as treatments. I expect a lot more published research in the next few decades.
I know they use fecal transplants to get rid of c dif and help (not cure) UC but never heard of it curing cancer and other diseases. Can you give me the link to those studies? Sounds interesting
I have not personally read them, I was at a conference where they showed data from the studies and presentation. A few PhD professors in microbiology and cancer from Roswell Park gave talk a few weeks ago on the newest data. (I work in a cancer research lab). The data is in such infancy, but I can appreciate the potential since people thought they were crazy in the beginning for suggesting gut health had any effect on the body. I was skeptical as well.
I still won’t believe it until I see the studies published in big journals with numerous supporting results with studies from different labs. But it was their idea to start trials using fecal implantation and seeing its impact on colorectal cancer, and they claim to see significant results. I can email around and get the raw data and papers to post here for anyone interested.
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I'm on the fence. I believe gut health research is still young and from reading some of it, it looks like there is a lot of swinging in the dark going on. It's not well understood yet. I'm not ready or willing to make drastic changes based on the current findings. I just eat a variety of nutritious foods and trust my gut to take care of itself. I think it's interesting and the research is intriguing. With that said, I'm not convinced at all that I would be doing my gut a big favor by giving up grains, dairy, potatoes, legumes, zucchini, and tomatoes. A lot of my probiotic intake comes from fermented dairy and I don't think I'll function like a human being without tomatoes. The stress of it alone would unnecessarily wreck havoc in my gut.1
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mortuseon_ wrote: »kommodevaran wrote: »I have a gut feeling there's a lot of woo to it. Reducing stress and anxiety, and thereby emotional eating, and getting in some kind of meal schedule, can do wonders for your weight, and getting in some kind of meal schedule, and losing excess weight, can do wonders with your stress and anxiety. Feeling that what you're doing, is right and important, is a powerful drive to keep doing it.
I’ve done some microbiome research and am inclined to agree. Although there is compelling evidence that the microbiome does interact a lot with host health, the evidence for probiotics working in a sustained way is much less clear, plus the developmental time point seems like it could be important as well. I think there might be some truth in the claims that certain microbial functions are beneficial, but it’ll be much less simple than people think. One thing that seems beneficial for many people is to eat more fibre - but then, that was a recommendation before all the microbiota hype...
This has definitely made a huge difference for me. I can always tell when I haven't had enough fiber for a couple of days. I always pay for it, but it's very easy to get back on track by adding more back in.0 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »I'm on the fence. I believe gut health research is still young and from reading some of it, it looks like there is a lot of swinging in the dark going on. It's not well understood yet. I'm not ready or willing to make drastic changes based on the current findings. I just eat a variety of nutritious foods and trust my gut to take care of itself. I think it's interesting and the research is intriguing. With that said, I'm not convinced at all that I would be doing my gut a big favor by giving up grains, dairy, potatoes, legumes, zucchini, and tomatoes. A lot of my probiotic intake comes from fermented dairy and I don't think I'll function like a human being without tomatoes. The stress of it alone would unnecessarily wreck havoc in my gut.
If you change diet from diet based on the possible benefits instead of because you enjoy it, you're doing it wrong.
PS I am not aiming at you specifically, I speak to those who do that. I see many jumping diet to diet for absolutely no other reason that some study say it 'may or may not give x benefits'.2 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »I'm on the fence. I believe gut health research is still young and from reading some of it, it looks like there is a lot of swinging in the dark going on. It's not well understood yet. I'm not ready or willing to make drastic changes based on the current findings. I just eat a variety of nutritious foods and trust my gut to take care of itself. I think it's interesting and the research is intriguing. With that said, I'm not convinced at all that I would be doing my gut a big favor by giving up grains, dairy, potatoes, legumes, zucchini, and tomatoes. A lot of my probiotic intake comes from fermented dairy and I don't think I'll function like a human being without tomatoes. The stress of it alone would unnecessarily wreck havoc in my gut.
If you change diet from diet based on the possible benefits instead of because you enjoy it, you're doing it wrong.
PS I am not aiming at you specifically, I speak to those who do that. I see many jumping diet to diet for absolutely no other reason that some study say it 'may or may not give x benefits'.
I agree with you. I wouldn't personally make unsustainable changes. There are things that have strong support that I'm not doing because I wouldn't be able to realistically keep them up. In this particular case, the suggested changes don't even have strong support - at least none that I've come across. I haven't seen any reliable research that says potatoes harm your gut bacteria and all kinds of support that fermented dairy is good for the gut, and not only that, if I'm not mistaken (don't quote me on that) I remember a study that speculated lactose was actually beneficial for certain desirable strains. The Mediterranean diet shows great gut biome diversity, and it includes a lot of tomatoes, grains and legumes.
I'm very interested in the topic and I feel there is something there, but other than eating more fiber, fermented foods, and a good variety of vegetables, that list doesn't feel like it would benefit gut health in a meaningful way.2 -
Noreenmarie1234 wrote: »singingflutelady wrote: »Noreenmarie1234 wrote: »mortuseon_ wrote: »kommodevaran wrote: »I have a gut feeling there's a lot of woo to it. Reducing stress and anxiety, and thereby emotional eating, and getting in some kind of meal schedule, can do wonders for your weight, and getting in some kind of meal schedule, and losing excess weight, can do wonders with your stress and anxiety. Feeling that what you're doing, is right and important, is a powerful drive to keep doing it.
I’ve done some microbiome research and am inclined to agree. Although there is compelling evidence that the microbiome does interact a lot with host health, the evidence for probiotics working in a sustained way is much less clear, plus the developmental time point seems like it could be important as well. I think there might be some truth in the claims that certain microbial functions are beneficial, but it’ll be much less simple than people think. One thing that seems beneficial for many people is to eat more fibre - but then, that was a recommendation before all the microbiota hype...
There is actually a lot of research going on in this topic and it is not as much "woo" as it once was. There have been new studies showing fecal transplants (to alter someone's microbiome) has led to cure of many diseases from cancers to arthritis. We really just do not know enough about it yet. Only 5% of the bacteria are culturable in our gut, and the ones that aren't culturable can be identified, but are not well studied since they cannot be cultured. We really do not know exactly how they impact the body. Bacteria can metabolize products, which can produce fats that we can absorb, they can release proteins, neurotransmitters, etc. It was just in the past decade that they actually began to use fecal transplants as treatments. I expect a lot more published research in the next few decades.
I know they use fecal transplants to get rid of c dif and help (not cure) UC but never heard of it curing cancer and other diseases. Can you give me the link to those studies? Sounds interesting
I have not personally read them, I was at a conference where they showed data from the studies and presentation. A few PhD professors in microbiology and cancer from Roswell Park gave talk a few weeks ago on the newest data. (I work in a cancer research lab). The data is in such infancy, but I can appreciate the potential since people thought they were crazy in the beginning for suggesting gut health had any effect on the body. I was skeptical as well.
I still won’t believe it until I see the studies published in big journals with numerous supporting results with studies from different labs. But it was their idea to start trials using fecal implantation and seeing its impact on colorectal cancer, and they claim to see significant results. I can email around and get the raw data and papers to post here for anyone interested.
I'd be very interested in anything you can dig up. From what I've found I agree with many others that the research seems to be inconclusive and still in it's infancy, but fascinating none the less. One study I've read suggested that our lifelong travels and foods eaten all contribute to the overall "robustness" of lack of such in our gut biome. I think there is still a lot to be learned, but it seems a very complex issue.
As for my N=1... I never thought about it much, nor worried about it. One tooth infection, a round of conventional antibiotics to get me to the dentist, a round of a specialized dental use antibiotic, and then a round of a third to help quiet the suspected C diff from the stuff. I was told that the probiotics might help and it made a huge difference immediately. I had reached a point where ANY type of food wasn't staying with me long, and actually getting weak because my system was so screwed up.
I know there have also been at least a poster or two on the forums here with long term issues that found that probiotics helped them along.1 -
Noreenmarie1234 wrote: »mortuseon_ wrote: »kommodevaran wrote: »I have a gut feeling there's a lot of woo to it. Reducing stress and anxiety, and thereby emotional eating, and getting in some kind of meal schedule, can do wonders for your weight, and getting in some kind of meal schedule, and losing excess weight, can do wonders with your stress and anxiety. Feeling that what you're doing, is right and important, is a powerful drive to keep doing it.
I’ve done some microbiome research and am inclined to agree. Although there is compelling evidence that the microbiome does interact a lot with host health, the evidence for probiotics working in a sustained way is much less clear, plus the developmental time point seems like it could be important as well. I think there might be some truth in the claims that certain microbial functions are beneficial, but it’ll be much less simple than people think. One thing that seems beneficial for many people is to eat more fibre - but then, that was a recommendation before all the microbiota hype...
There is actually a lot of research going on in this topic and it is not as much "woo" as it once was. There have been new studies showing fecal transplants (to alter someone's microbiome) has led to cure of many diseases from cancers to arthritis. We really just do not know enough about it yet. Only 5% of the bacteria are culturable in our gut, and the ones that aren't culturable can be identified, but are not well studied since they cannot be cultured. We really do not know exactly how they impact the body. Bacteria can metabolize products, which can produce fats that we can absorb, they can release proteins, neurotransmitters, etc. It was just in the past decade that they actually began to use fecal transplants as treatments. I expect a lot more published research in the next few decades.
Yes, I have read a substantial number of the studies you are talking about! Faecal transplants are the example everyone gives, and of course there is evidence that they are very effective. However, I don't think that the example is a representative one for probiotics, being that an ENTIRE microbial community is replacing an (often antibiotic-damaged) one in C. diff infection. It isn't the same as administering a single probiotic strain and hoping it penetrates the existing community, persists, goes on to transcribe the 'right' genes for health (???), and has the right substrates from the host/rest of community to produce (enough of) its metabolic product. Like you said, most aren't culturable and there's such huge inter-individual variability that it's been a struggle to characterise a single strain that we know will have beneficial effects. I would argue that the microbiome is better conceptualised as a network of genes, since there are so many shared resources, I don't know if narrowing down individual strains for probiotic usage is useful or generalisable. I agree that more research is needed...I really think more integrated metagenomic-metabolomic studies are needed, to understand exactly what is going on. I guess I just find it weird, seeing all this hype about gut health/probiotics/fermented foods online, when so little about the actual mechanisms is truly understood.
All that being said, I DO think there are interesting implications for human health and it's entirely possible that eating fermented foods (etc) is of use, I just don't think we're at the point yet where we can be assured of that or make meaningful *precise* therapeutic interventions with things like probiotics. I'm aware of at least one faecal transplant paper (in humans) that was NOT a C. diff study and had implications for metabolic syndrome! So I really do think there is some promise. Just need to hammer out the mechanistic details (butyrate rears its head once again...), and understand how this applies across different populations before we rush to follow the hype...
Ref is: Transfer of Intestinal Microbiota From Lean Donors Increases Insulin Sensitivity in Individuals with Metabolic Syndrome' A Vrieze, E van Nood, F Holleman, et al 2012 Gastroenterology 143:913-916.
Another really interesting thing, microbiome-related as well, is chronic helminth infection and its effect on allergic disease! I wonder if 'worm therapy' will ever catch on, hahaha. I guess they're already swabbing C-section babies for similar reasons...!1 -
what really helped me for gut health was raw sauerkraut, kefir, and advanced probiotics by bio-kult. I couldn't eat sugar without getting a headache a few years ago but now I can eat most of a family size bag of m&m's and not have a headache at all, not that I do that very often. I mostly eat a low carb diet now and that seems to help.1
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I got 'inspired' with my shopping today:
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