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Facts or Hacks?
psychod787
Posts: 4,099 Member
Just thought this would make a good debate. I have noticed that in the last 10 years, there has been a rise of Naturalopath Doctors and Chiropractors who have been giving nutritional and activity advice. Do you think they have it together, or are just throwing around BS?
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If I want nutritional advice, I want to talk to a licensed dietitian who has an advanced degree in that area.
If I want activity advice I want to talk to a trainer/coach who also has an advanced degree in exercise science or kinesiology8 -
My ex-wife was a Chiropractor. They go through the same initial schooling as any other Doctor, before studying for a specific field. I have also been through some of the same schooling. I think anyone that has taken the time to learn about the human body would have some insight as to it's care.
I'm not talking about fad diets and such, but rather the common sense upkeep.18 -
TheRoadDog wrote: »My ex-wife was a Chiropractor. They go through the same initial schooling as any other Doctor, before studying for a specific field. I have also been through some of the same schooling. I think anyone that has taken the time to learn about the human body would have some insight as to it's care.
I'm not talking about fad diets and such, but rather the common sense upkeep.
What "initial schooling" are you talking about? The undergraduate degree MDs get prior to going to medical school and getting their actual medical training?2 -
janejellyroll wrote: »TheRoadDog wrote: »My ex-wife was a Chiropractor. They go through the same initial schooling as any other Doctor, before studying for a specific field. I have also been through some of the same schooling. I think anyone that has taken the time to learn about the human body would have some insight as to it's care.
I'm not talking about fad diets and such, but rather the common sense upkeep.
What "initial schooling" are you talking about? The undergraduate degree MDs get prior to going to medical school and getting their actual medical training?
Just basic Physiology, Anatomy, Pathology etc.2 -
Why listen to those who have had extensive study on these topics when you have the internet experts on here? lol
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I'm on the side of SOME chiropractors being amazing and insightful and helpful and healthful.
Others, however, are quaks out to get your money. It's well worth investing the time to find a good one.4 -
I think good info can be on both sides.....I think bad info can pass thtu both sides too.2
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My sister is a naturopath and they do a lot of the same schooling that MDs do, the main difference is pharmacology (MD) and she did study a lot of nutrition. She follows IIFYM 80/20 and recommends that to her clients who seek her help with fat loss; after excluding medical reasons for their being overweight. I think like any field there are good and bad ones.4
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I go to integrated md myself. I like the fact that they will try other things before just putting you on meds. Now some of there stuff is just plain nutty, but from experience they tend to listen to me more. Now the PA they had recommended low carb Paleo for a guy who walks 7 miles a day average, does yoga, works around the house, and lifts heavy 4 days a week. Kinda nutty, but she did not last long there. My old md gave me sleeping pills a year ago when I had trouble sleeping. No help. When I went to the integrated md, she recommend melatonin and 5htp. That worked wonders. I just think people like Dr axe and Dr berg are just quacks.2
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The chiros do know the limits, and if they can hype a harmless pill they will. It needn't even be harmless.3
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cwolfman13 wrote: »
Probably more than MDs do.14 -
TheRoadDog wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »TheRoadDog wrote: »My ex-wife was a Chiropractor. They go through the same initial schooling as any other Doctor, before studying for a specific field. I have also been through some of the same schooling. I think anyone that has taken the time to learn about the human body would have some insight as to it's care.
I'm not talking about fad diets and such, but rather the common sense upkeep.
What "initial schooling" are you talking about? The undergraduate degree MDs get prior to going to medical school and getting their actual medical training?
Just basic Physiology, Anatomy, Pathology etc.TheRoadDog wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »TheRoadDog wrote: »My ex-wife was a Chiropractor. They go through the same initial schooling as any other Doctor, before studying for a specific field. I have also been through some of the same schooling. I think anyone that has taken the time to learn about the human body would have some insight as to it's care.
I'm not talking about fad diets and such, but rather the common sense upkeep.
What "initial schooling" are you talking about? The undergraduate degree MDs get prior to going to medical school and getting their actual medical training?
Just basic Physiology, Anatomy, Pathology etc.
We don't allow doctors to practice medicine after taking basic classes of those sort so I don't understand why you would consider a chiropractor to have special insight into the human body after taking those introductory classes.
Do they know more than a person on the street who hasn't had those classes? Probably. But I don't consider that sufficient for what some chiropractors are taking on as part of their practice.12 -
cwolfman13 wrote: »
Probably more than MDs do.
I don't think I'd go to an MD for nutrition and exercise advice either...
The chiropractor I go to knows jack *kitten* about nutrition...he knows about adjustments and needling...4 -
cwolfman13 wrote: »
Probably more than MDs do.
They may study it more, but I'm not sure what some of them are studying is actually valid. It seems like some of the wackiest professional advice I've seen in the past few years here has been from chiropractors and naturopaths. They seem to be at the front-lines of overly restrictive elimination diets, hacky blood test based diet plans, imaginary allergies, diagnosis of questionable conditions like "leaky gut syndrome," pushing of unnecessary or even potentially harmful supplements, and other forms of quackery. So in these cases, I wouldn't conclude that study -- in and of itself -- is a good thing.7 -
I got this off of the job outlook handbook bureau of labor statistics, it's the educational requirements for chiropractors, I have no dog in this fight but thought it might be a good link to share.
https://www.bls.gov/ooh/healthcare/chiropractors.htm#tab-4
and that got me curious so I found this Curriculum overview.
https://www.nwhealth.edu/college-of-chiropractic/curriculum-overview/3 -
Sorry, but naturopath education is vastly inferior and very different from a real medical education. First, just getting into med school is quite difficult, around a 5% acceptance rate with avg GPA of 3.7, nd school acceptance rate is 60-100% with avg GPA of 3.0. Second, pharmacology isn't the only main difference. nd's learn complete quackery such as acupuncture, ayurvedic medicine, and homeopathy. Homeopathy is the ultimate pseudoscience and is required by all US nd schools. They learn prescientific notions of disease and how the human body works. Another huge difference is that MDs need 3-4 years of internship doing clinical rounds treating sick patients and some go on to specialize and that requires another 2-4 years in fellowship before they can practice. As soon an nd graduates they can start to practice with no real clinical experience. That's quite scary.mrsnattybulking wrote: »My sister is a naturopath and they do a lot of the same schooling that MDs do, the main difference is pharmacology (MD) and she did study a lot of nutrition. She follows IIFYM 80/20 and recommends that to her clients who seek her help with fat loss; after excluding medical reasons for their being overweight.
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I was Facebook friends with a woman who took ONE CLASS in nutrition yet dispensed such advice as part of her career coaching. I called her out on that and she blocked me.1
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TheRoadDog wrote: »My ex-wife was a Chiropractor. They go through the same initial schooling as any other Doctor, before studying for a specific field. I have also been through some of the same schooling. I think anyone that has taken the time to learn about the human body would have some insight as to it's care.
I'm not talking about fad diets and such, but rather the common sense upkeep.
Initial schooling means very little. Real doctors have to spend several years on residency before practicing. Chiros and naturopaths spend none
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cwolfman13 wrote: »If I want nutritional advice, I want to talk to a licensed dietitian who has an advanced degree in that area.
If I want activity advice I want to talk to a trainer/coach who also has an advanced degree in exercise science or kinesiology
I agree to a point.
I think in this day and age we all have to do our own research, hard as it can be sometimes and be as informed as possible.
I've gone to all the people you've mentioned above... some have been wonderful.... some were walk away and don't look back scary.0 -
bikecheryl wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »If I want nutritional advice, I want to talk to a licensed dietitian who has an advanced degree in that area.
If I want activity advice I want to talk to a trainer/coach who also has an advanced degree in exercise science or kinesiology
I agree to a point.
I think in this day and age we all have to do our own research, hard as it can be sometimes and be as informed as possible.
I've gone to all the people you've mentioned above... some have been wonderful.... some were walk away and don't look back scary.
Well, yes... you have to be discerning...i think that's a given.
But I do think most actual dieticians (Not nutritionists) and trainers who have education in exercise science and kinesiology and not just a certificate are usually pretty good... at least the ones I've come across.1 -
I am sure it depends on the person, but the chiropractor I went to was trying to get me to buy stuff for the HCG diet,....nope!2
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I got lucky ... my chiropractor is a registered dietician as well. She said that while adjustments, etc. help, that working on the inside is important too. She knows much more about eating plans than my doctor does. She makes my eyes glaze sometimes because she gets down to a chemical and cellular level about stuff. I just tell her ... in redneck language please!1
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bikecheryl wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »If I want nutritional advice, I want to talk to a licensed dietitian who has an advanced degree in that area.
If I want activity advice I want to talk to a trainer/coach who also has an advanced degree in exercise science or kinesiology
I agree to a point.
I think in this day and age we all have to do our own research, hard as it can be sometimes and be as informed as possible.
I've gone to all the people you've mentioned above... some have been wonderful.... some were walk away and don't look back scary.
Yep and from what I see the legit ones are all directionally similar in their advice. Assuming a healthy individual, 80-90% of food from nutritionally dense foods,, mostly compound mines for strength training, etc.0 -
Sorry, but naturopath education is vastly inferior and very different from a real medical education. First, just getting into med school is quite difficult, around a 5% acceptance rate with avg GPA of 3.7, nd school acceptance rate is 60-100% with avg GPA of 3.0. Second, pharmacology isn't the only main difference. nd's learn complete quackery such as acupuncture, ayurvedic medicine, and homeopathy. Homeopathy is the ultimate pseudoscience and is required by all US nd schools. They learn prescientific notions of disease and how the human body works. Another huge difference is that MDs need 3-4 years of internship doing clinical rounds treating sick patients and some go on to specialize and that requires another 2-4 years in fellowship before they can practice. As soon an nd graduates they can start to practice with no real clinical experience. That's quite scary.mrsnattybulking wrote: »My sister is a naturopath and they do a lot of the same schooling that MDs do, the main difference is pharmacology (MD) and she did study a lot of nutrition. She follows IIFYM 80/20 and recommends that to her clients who seek her help with fat loss; after excluding medical reasons for their being overweight.
I don't know about ayurvedic medicine or hemopathy but acupuncture is not quackery. It has been shown to help treat pain. If I was in pain, I would rather try acupuncture first before pain medications.
https://nccih.nih.gov/health/acupuncture/introduction#hed3
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I wouldn't trust a chiropractor with giving nutrition advice. I would trust the naturopath. If chiropractors get a similar education to MDs they may only have one class/unit on nutrition. If you see a naturopath research their credentials. Make sure they went to a top school, there are a few really good ones, and a lot of not so good ones. If they went to a good school of naturopathic medicine I would trust them.9
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Sorry, but naturopath education is vastly inferior and very different from a real medical education. First, just getting into med school is quite difficult, around a 5% acceptance rate with avg GPA of 3.7, nd school acceptance rate is 60-100% with avg GPA of 3.0. Second, pharmacology isn't the only main difference. nd's learn complete quackery such as acupuncture, ayurvedic medicine, and homeopathy. Homeopathy is the ultimate pseudoscience and is required by all US nd schools. They learn prescientific notions of disease and how the human body works. Another huge difference is that MDs need 3-4 years of internship doing clinical rounds treating sick patients and some go on to specialize and that requires another 2-4 years in fellowship before they can practice. As soon an nd graduates they can start to practice with no real clinical experience. That's quite scary.mrsnattybulking wrote: »My sister is a naturopath and they do a lot of the same schooling that MDs do, the main difference is pharmacology (MD) and she did study a lot of nutrition. She follows IIFYM 80/20 and recommends that to her clients who seek her help with fat loss; after excluding medical reasons for their being overweight.
I don't know about ayurvedic medicine or hemopathy but acupuncture is not quackery. It has been shown to help treat pain. If I was in pain, I would rather try acupuncture first before pain medications.
https://nccih.nih.gov/health/acupuncture/introduction#hed3
Acupuncture is nothing but placebo. It is no more effective than getting poked in random places with toothpicks
https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/mediocre-expectations/7 -
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Sorry, but naturopath education is vastly inferior and very different from a real medical education. First, just getting into med school is quite difficult, around a 5% acceptance rate with avg GPA of 3.7, nd school acceptance rate is 60-100% with avg GPA of 3.0. Second, pharmacology isn't the only main difference. nd's learn complete quackery such as acupuncture, ayurvedic medicine, and homeopathy. Homeopathy is the ultimate pseudoscience and is required by all US nd schools. They learn prescientific notions of disease and how the human body works. Another huge difference is that MDs need 3-4 years of internship doing clinical rounds treating sick patients and some go on to specialize and that requires another 2-4 years in fellowship before they can practice. As soon an nd graduates they can start to practice with no real clinical experience. That's quite scary.mrsnattybulking wrote: »My sister is a naturopath and they do a lot of the same schooling that MDs do, the main difference is pharmacology (MD) and she did study a lot of nutrition. She follows IIFYM 80/20 and recommends that to her clients who seek her help with fat loss; after excluding medical reasons for their being overweight.
I don't know about ayurvedic medicine or hemopathy but acupuncture is not quackery. It has been shown to help treat pain. If I was in pain, I would rather try acupuncture first before pain medications.
https://nccih.nih.gov/health/acupuncture/introduction#hed3
Nope, acupuncture is pure quackery. It's theatrical placebo. It doesn't matter where you stick the needles, you can use toothpicks, and you dont even have to break skin.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2832641/?tool=pmcentrez
All that really matters is that you believe in acupuncture.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4323559/
And that the acupuncturist is nice.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18390493
After thousands of studies, all pretty much saying the same thing, that acupuncture is no better than placebo, it's fair to say that acupuncture doesn't work.7
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