Welcome to Debate Club! Please be aware that this is a space for respectful debate, and that your ideas will be challenged here. Please remember to critique the argument, not the author.
Why do people deny CICO ?
Options
Replies
-
I was al Wal-mart the other day picking up a few items, one thing I had was a 4 pack of slim fast shakes I like to have on hand for when I need a quick on the go breakfast. The cashier scanning my items pointed to the slim fast and asked me "do those really work?". I told her I only buy them as a last resort quick meal and told it all boils down to CICO. There was no one behind me so I explained to her the concept of CICO and that is how all diets work, including ones that sell you their foods, shakes, supplements, etc. She looked amazed and said she really wanted to lose 40 pounds so I told her to grab a food scale after work one day and join MFP. She got really excited and said "I can't believe it is really that simple! I have been over complicating it for years!" I felt like I had just converted someone to my religion but it felt really good to actually see the light bulb go off in someone who is now a believer (I am hoping still is anyway).49
-
Of course you only lose weight if you have an energy deficit. There is no other way. My point is that the reflexive responses to tighten up weighing and measuring, and cut calories further, is unhelpful, because there are multiple factors involved in both CI and CO. A large person on 1200 cal may not be losing weight because their resting metabolism has slowed due to extreme calorie deprivation. So their CO has decreased. Telling them to eat less only aggravates the problem, it doesn’t help. I’ve seen people on here tell 230 pound individuals, who aren’t losing on 1500 calories and frequent exercise, to cut calories further...’cuz CICO. Not helpful.39
-
Of course you only lose weight if you have an energy deficit. There is no other way. My point is that the reflexive responses to tighten up weighing and measuring, and cut calories further, is unhelpful, because there are multiple factors involved in both CI and CO. A large person on 1200 cal may not be losing weight because their resting metabolism has slowed due to extreme calorie deprivation. So their CO has decreased. Telling them to eat less only aggravates the problem, it doesn’t help. I’ve seen people on here tell 230 pound individuals, who aren’t losing on 1500 calories and frequent exercise, to cut calories further...’cuz CICO. Not helpful.
I take it you haven’t checked out the thread “Of Refeeds and Diet Breaks” ?19 -
Of course you only lose weight if you have an energy deficit. There is no other way. My point is that the reflexive responses to tighten up weighing and measuring, and cut calories further, is unhelpful, because there are multiple factors involved in both CI and CO. A large person on 1200 cal may not be losing weight because their resting metabolism has slowed due to extreme calorie deprivation. So their CO has decreased. Telling them to eat less only aggravates the problem, it doesn’t help. I’ve seen people on here tell 230 pound individuals, who aren’t losing on 1500 calories and frequent exercise, to cut calories further...’cuz CICO. Not helpful.
That is an over-simplified and honestly not accurate characterization of the typical responses here. I've never seen the consistent, veteran posters here tell someone who is already eating a super low amount to eat less. We usually ask them to open there diary, if they are using a food scale, and what types of database entries they are using. If they insist they are doing everything accurately, we suggest a diet break or a trip to the doctor for blood work.
Sometimes people are told the basic "if you aren't losing weight you are eating too much" because their OP provides us with not enough info. If they come back and provide the type of stats you're suggesting, they get follow up responses that are more appropriate.
Could you perhaps provide examples of all these threads where obese people are told to eat less than 1500 cals "cuz CICO"?23 -
Sorry, I don’t know how to link threads but 2 recent ones are:
- Endless Plateau - overall almost 6 months now
- Am I eating enough?
Unfortunately there are many similar threads6 -
Sorry, I don’t know how to link threads but 2 recent ones are:
- Endless Plateau - overall almost 6 months now
- Am I eating enough?
Unfortunately there are many similar threads
In "Am I eating enough" OP is 5'3" 145 lbs and is trying to lose the last few lbs. She is mostly being told to tighten up her logging and consider recomp instead. Not anything like what you are talking about.
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10654870/am-i-eating-enough
In Endless Plateau, I see one or two posters just say to reduce calories. The rest of the posts are telling him he is not logging properly and if he tightens up his logging he'll see that he is actually eating far more calories and therefore may need to eat less. I guess your point is that he hasn't been told to see a doctor and see if there is a medical condition causing him to not lose weight? My response to that would be, it makes sense to start with the most obvious issue first. First we need to make sure his logging, and therefore his reported calories are accurate. If he came back and said - Yes I'm using a food scale and logging everything, i'm really eating 1700 cals, then based on my time here, I feel confident saying he would be linked to the thread about refeeds and diet breaks and asked if he has had blood work done recently.
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10653123/endless-plateau-overall-almost-6-months-now
Are you suggesting that anytime someone says they are eating the minimum calories and not losing weight, we should be telling them they probably have a hormonal complication and should see a doctor?
99% of the time, people who post like that are not using a food scale, are not logging cheat days, are using awful inaccurate entries in the database, or are trying to lose at an aggressive and unrealistic pace. That's not to say there aren't people who have underlying physical causes, but why jump to that in every single reply?28 -
Sorry, I don’t know how to link threads but 2 recent ones are:
***
Am I eating enough?
This does not involve someone being told to eat a very small amount. Mostly it's people saying that recomp might be a better option given the OP's goals, and that the last few lbs go slow. Some specific advise about tightening up logging was given based on the OP's diary.
The OP had lost weight on MFP before and didn't think her maintenance was 1300, not sure why you seem to think the posters should have assumed it was, which is extremely unlikely.
And, of course, the idea that people eat too little to lose is not accurate, it's a dieting myth. Sometimes you might do better increasing calories, as you may be more likely to be active, more likely to count properly, less likely to cheat or binge, etc., and also sometimes a dieting break can be helpful, but that's not the same as the myth that if you eat too little you can't lose since you are in starvation mode and your body will not drop fat or whatever it is.- Endless Plateau - overall almost 6 months now
Here OP was eating 1700 (he thinks) and his own suggestion was that he drop to 1500. Many doctors would say yes (assuming the person wasn't counting right but knowing that dropping calories is usually useful in this case). People at MPF, instead, tried to help with logging issues by troubleshooting.Unfortunately there are many similar threads
I disagree. Often if someone claims not to be losing at 1200, people do offer to help with logging and so on, but almost no one (and no regular posters) says to eat below 1200 IME.
Your assumption seems to be that these people were not losing because they'd been eating at an extreme deficit (which doesn't seem supported) and their maintenance had dropped to below their current stated calories (which also seems extremely unlikely given the threads). Yes, there's some degree of metabolic adaptation, but it's generally not that extreme and nothing in those threads would suggest it was the issue.
Beyond that, one step SHOULD BE working on tightening up logging. If that suggested maintenance really was crazy low, a doctor's appointment with the log to explain the issue would be a next step.16 -
So many people just don't grasp the concept of calories in calories out. They tell me that not all calories are equal and that you have to eat healthy to lose weight. I used to argue with these people but lately I just smile and nod. It's worked for me.. I eat basically anything I want and have lost 5 kg. I feel so many more people would be successful at weight loss if they just grasped this simple scientific concept. I'm hoping to reach my ultimate weight and then write a blog list about how I did it and prove all the CICO deniers wrong
Perhaps you are not the best example on writing a blog list on how you reached your ultimate weight. Your food dairy on the days you have completed it indicates that your are eating less than 1200cals per day. While the dairy doesn't dip below 1000cals its really not the best example, though yes it does bear out CICO.9 -
Here's a great article which explains what CICO is. It also goes into an in-depth discussion about the multitude of factors which can influence (but not invalidate) it: https://bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/the-energy-balance-equation.html/
Summary for those who don't bother to click links and actually read before commenting on them:...I think when you read articles decrying the energy balance equation as invalid or incorrect, you’ll find that they ignore (or simply are unaware) of all of the above. The equation is perfectly valid and humans are as subject to the laws of thermodynamics as anything else in the universe. Physics is not just a good idea, kids, it’s the law.
Most claims that the energy balance equation is invalid are due to people simply not knowing what they are talking about. The equation is valid, it has to be, what’s invalid are people’s assumptions about how things should work.13 -
Of course you only lose weight if you have an energy deficit. There is no other way. My point is that the reflexive responses to tighten up weighing and measuring, and cut calories further, is unhelpful, because there are multiple factors involved in both CI and CO. A large person on 1200 cal may not be losing weight because their resting metabolism has slowed due to extreme calorie deprivation. So their CO has decreased. Telling them to eat less only aggravates the problem, it doesn’t help. I’ve seen people on here tell 230 pound individuals, who aren’t losing on 1500 calories and frequent exercise, to cut calories further...’cuz CICO. Not helpful.
You seriously believe a 230 pound person could eat 1500 calories + exercise and that would not be a deficit?14 -
I live CICO and believe in it as I joined in May 2016. I lost the first year 40 pounds. For the past year up to today I am stuck at 230 ish @ 1560 calories faithfully per day. I weigh my food and don't cheat.. I can only surmise my medications have slowed me down but I don't despair as I don't gain weight... it's like I am stuck in eternal "maintenance phase"
5' 10 male only exercise my fingers / sedentary...0 -
To be honest. I came across CICO by accident. I went through a stressful situation that caused me to lose my appetite, within 3 weeks I was down 10lbs. It happened so suddenly I didn't know what was going on. I thought it was all the sugar I had cut out. I had been a member of mfp but didn't use it regularly, I figured what the heck, let me start logging my food. I started reading the forums and realized it is CICO! I was a regular at the gym before this and I couldn't lose weight, a bodybuilder in the gym would constantly tell me I wasn't eating enough and I was storing fat, so I'd go home and eat, after I was probably way over my calories for the day.
Well, needless to say, I took my stressful situation and went with it. I started jogging and cutting calories, I'm currently down 27 lbs and in maintenance. I'm so grateful for mfp, I've learned so much from the forums.8 -
I'm someone who would love nothing else than to fully believe in CICO 100%. And I mostly still rely on it because the easiest thing for me to do is simply eat less. Or not eat. I have little appetite and I can easily go through days with barely eating, I often forget to eat or skip meals out of a lack of time. What I have a lot more trouble doing is actually forcing myself to eat healthfully, to eat enough of the 'right' foods, protein, veggies, I'm a picky eater and a carboholic. And I have trouble completely eliminating certain foods. So as I said, I'd love to believe that if i just keep eating very little of whatever I want, I'll never have a weight problem. However, my personal weight history and experience is making it difficult. I mean, I get that it works as a general concept. But I believe that the CO part of it is SO variable and dependent on the individual's factors, that in some cases it can make it impossible to lose weight while eating enough to sustain normal activity.
From my experience, I have always been a skinny child. Then I put on weight during puberty. For years through my teens I tried and tried to lose weight - diets, working out, you name it. I never lost a single pound, no matter what I did. I kid you not. Didn't gain either. Then, around 23 something happened and I ended up losing ten pounds over the course of a year. I ate regular amounts, ate out, no diets, moderate exercise. Then, I maintained that weight over the next ten years. I did NOTHING - no measuring, no logging, eating pretty much whatever I wanted, working out, not working out, I had my first child during that time. My intake must have varied WILDLY in that time, but I never gained (or lost) a single pound. Fast forward to my second pregnancy. Unlike with my first where I gained very moderately, I blew up right away. Gained super quickly and had to be a lot more careful with eating to avoid gaining too much weight. Lost the weight way slower after birth too, and still five pounds left over from pre-pregnancy weight two years later. Sure it's only five lbs, but again - I tried everything to lose it, eating way less and more carefully than I used to, working out - it will.not.budge. What's worse, any small transgression in eating bumps the scale up right away. After a winter of not exercising much, I'm now up another five lbs, my highest weight in twelve years. And no, I haven't yet started tracking or measuring, I'm just doing what my first reaction and simply cutting down my already small portions even more, and it doesn't seem to be working. But neither did I track all these past ten years, and yet I maintained with no issues! I'm terrified that at some point my metabolism will get so low I won't be able to eat anything without gaining. I really want to get my RMR tested to know the truth.
Anyways, the point of my very long-winded post is that there are all these factors to metabolism that aren't yet well known to science and their mechanism could very well affect the equation. We know that calories go towards energy and muscle and fat. But what if a person's metabolism converts them all into fat without putting anything towards energy? Or simply slows down excessively. If that wasn't true, why would conditions such as PCOS, insulin resistance, Cushing's syndrome be associated with weight gain, a severe and dramatic one in the case of Cushing's? Fatty deposits on neck and torso. Where does it come from - air? Clearly not, but something 'breaks' in the process. I have met a woman who was frantic about her five year old, who was very obese, with a swollen face and rolls everywhere. The girl was very active and did not eat more than your average five year old, diets didn't help, and she had normal-weight siblings that ate a lot more than she did. Doctors were trying to test for all sorts of hormonal things. How does that happen? Yes, these are rare - but when it does happen, WHERE does that extra weight come from? Does it break with the CICO concept? Or is the CO just so screwed up that you can never get the CI "right"? I'm not sure medicine even knows. What role do hormones like leptin and cortisol play? Gut biomes - there was a study on that recently? Why are some kids in the same family gain weight while fed the same diets as their siblings, or why are entire nations, such as Asians, able to eat large amounts of food while maintaining tiny slim frames? I lived in a town with many of them and marveled many times at these tiny girls putting away double cheeseburger meals finished with frappuccinos - and no, I doubt they were athletes or it was their only meal of the day. These differences exist, like it or not. Or another example - my grandmother, was very slim up into her early thirties. Then she had a miscarriage, and since then she said she felt her hormones got out of whack. She started gaining weight rapidly without changing her intake. When I was born she was already obese, and I remember her trying to always lose weight. She lived with us and she ate very little, I'm certain she wasn't stuffing chickens under her bed to binge at night. The weight was affecting her health and mobility and she wanted nothing else but to lose it, but nothing worked - granted she never went on starvation diets but she ate the same foods as the rest of the family in much smaller amounts.
I inherited her body type, and getting into my mid-thirties now, this is one of the reasons each pound that seemingly came from nowhere terrifies me, as I don't want to follow the same fate. I WANT to believe in CICO as an end-all, but my biggest fear is that one day it will prove me wrong...
26 -
No need to look down on others. I have lost 17 pounds since January when I first learned the true scope of CICO.
It is really simple - we don’t know what we don’t know. And the majority of people view dieting as a mysterious and not well understood process so it takes most of us a little while longer to find and believe in CICO.
And let’s admit it, I can’t be the only one who wasn’t born knowing CICO. Let’s be patient with the unconverted.7 -
kommodevaran wrote: »I have spent four years investigating this fascinating phenomenon, and this is my conclusion so far: Human beings are social animals. So people don't want easy and comfortable strategies to effectively reach their weightloss and fitness goals, people want to do pointless and hard, but also exciting, symbolic weightloss things, so they can feel that they're doing something, impress their peers, share struggles with them, and then have the necessary excuses to sabotage themselves, because people don't want to be outcasts. People are also deeply religious, even in our seemingly secular societies; a constant need to confess and repent for indulging in worldly pleasures. People also don't easily grasp concepts, so they want and need clear-cut rules, recipes and fat burning exercises. People, sheeple.
Way back on page 1 - but very interesting thoughts.
Way back when I was thin, borderline underweight (30 years ago!) I noticed myself being, if not quite an outcast, someone who missed out on the social side of weight loss - people went to weight loss clubs, joined support groups, did challenges at work, celebrated and commiserated together. It was enjoyable and sociable and perhaps that was unintentionally more the purpose really than actual long term weight loss.
I'm sure nobody wanted to be morbidly obese and most were just 'regular overweight' ( like I was too, 3 kids and many years later) but I think they all enjoyed having a common goal, the friendship side of things, the cameraderie etc more than they seriously wanted long term weight loss.
Just an outsiders observation.
11 -
nettiklive wrote: »I inherited her body type, and getting into my mid-thirties now, this is one of the reasons each pound that seemingly came from nowhere terrifies me, as I don't want to follow the same fate. I WANT to believe in CICO as an end-all, but my biggest fear is that one day it will prove me wrong...
I'm quoting this, because I had a mom who was always on a diet, seemed to eat little compared to the rest of the family, and I myself never had to think about my weight until around age 30 when it seemed to come on, bit by bit, outside my control. I didn't feel like I had control over it -- my body had just always been my body -- and I didn't think I ate more than anyone else (or than I had in the past).
Eventually when I decided to lose I didn't believe (not 100%) that CICO would work for me, but luckily for me I had the sense to decide that no matter what I'd be as healthy as possible and start being regularly active (I'd always walked a lot -- I live in a big city -- but also get back to running and biking and add in gym stuff) and would take control of my diet and eat really healthfully and in a way that controlled calories. I didn't do a starvation diet -- NO ONE here is recommending that -- but I wrote down what I ate over the course of the week SUPER honestly and started to see where I was getting excess calories, and then I cut off about 500 calories. More significantly, since I saw I was getting lots of calories from little things added to meals or outside of meals (and things like work dinners that were at nice restaurants or food brought in), I simplified my meals some and basically routinized it more. NOT saying my approach would work for everyone, but although I focused on eating super healthy (on the basis that would be worthwhile even if I didn't lose), I also focused on cutting calories and doing so in a way that would be easy even without counting (which I wasn't at that point).
I was rather shocked at how easy weight loss turned out to be after that. (In part because I'd never really seen my body as something I had control over in that way -- I was always not fat, not thin, and while I admired some other people's bodies (who likely put in work), I'd assumed it was all about genetic gift. When in fact a lot of it is not (some is, of course -- I still tend to lose last in places I would rather have be first and so on!).)
Subsequent to that, talking to my mom, I realized why her approaches likely had not resulted in consistent reductions in calories (except for shorter periods of time): she had all sorts of ideas about what foods were good, what were bad (for weightloss, not talking nutrition), assumed that diets had to be extreme and deprivation focused, all the usual. And she'd very much judge small meal by size, whereas I know I ate more volume-wise (but less calorie-wise) when I changed my diet.
Anyway, I see no evidence that CICO doesn't work for all -- no one knowledgeable seriously believes it doesn't, even those diet folks who claim "calories don't matter" tend to admit that, well, calories do matter, but there are (in their view) better ways to cut calories than counting. But if you have trouble believing it will, I recommend coming up with other ways to motivate yourself (if you decide you need to lose) that will also consistently cut calories, as I think one issue with weight loss is that people aren't sufficiently patient and jump from thing to thing without giving the easy sustainable things time to work.10 -
Fitnessgirl0913 wrote: »I was al Wal-mart the other day picking up a few items, one thing I had was a 4 pack of slim fast shakes I like to have on hand for when I need a quick on the go breakfast. The cashier scanning my items pointed to the slim fast and asked me "do those really work?". I told her I only buy them as a last resort quick meal and told it all boils down to CICO. There was no one behind me so I explained to her the concept of CICO and that is how all diets work, including ones that sell you their foods, shakes, supplements, etc. She looked amazed and said she really wanted to lose 40 pounds so I told her to grab a food scale after work one day and join MFP. She got really excited and said "I can't believe it is really that simple! I have been over complicating it for years!" I felt like I had just converted someone to my religion but it felt really good to actually see the light bulb go off in someone who is now a believer (I am hoping still is anyway).
You're fortunate, when I tell to grab a food scale, I usually get a reply that it's too much work. That's why I don't talk about it anymore, people always wish to lose weight, but they do nothing about it all the time.2 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »I'm quoting this, because I had a mom who was always on a diet, seemed to eat little compared to the rest of the family, and I myself never had to think about my weight until around age 30 when it seemed to come on, bit by bit, outside my control. I didn't feel like I had control over it -- my body had just always been my body -- and I didn't think I ate more than anyone else (or than I had in the past).
Okay. But what was happening before you hit your thirties that you were able to maintain the same weight without monitoring intake? I'm guessing there is no way you ate the exact same amount every day, and also that there were many times you would eat over your maintenance. What happens to these calories?
I know people here will say that 'naturally' thin people just 'naturally' balance out their eating day to day (even when eating a lot of very high-calorie foods daily without a second thought); and yet they claim that for someone not able to lose weight, that difference between a measured cup and a weighted one is making that difference that's not letting them lose weight. That's true even if that person was, just a few years earlier, that person who 'naturally balanced' their calories. That just doesn't ring true for me in most of the cases. Again, no one will believe these anecdotal cases, but of all my friends, those who are 'naturally skinny' are the ones who eat whatever they want in whatever amounts they want with no second thought. Those who lean on the chubby side are constantly concerned about it, constantly restricting their diets and eating very little, exercising, and yet either yo-yo-ing, losing very little and getting stuck, or unable to lose at all. I know people will come up with all sorts of reasons - they sneak food at night, the skinny people move more, whatever. I have trouble believing that this is truly what makes the difference for every single person. Another point is that the chubbier women, looking at photos when they were younger, were always like this, since early teens, they tend to be 'built' wider and have 'bulkier' bodies, even when they lose weight, and same for the thin women who tend to be tall, lean, and 'narrow' in their frames.24 -
nettiklive wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »I'm quoting this, because I had a mom who was always on a diet, seemed to eat little compared to the rest of the family, and I myself never had to think about my weight until around age 30 when it seemed to come on, bit by bit, outside my control. I didn't feel like I had control over it -- my body had just always been my body -- and I didn't think I ate more than anyone else (or than I had in the past).
Okay. But what was happening before you hit your thirties that you were able to maintain the same weight without monitoring intake? I'm guessing there is no way you ate the exact same amount every day, and also that there were many times you would eat over your maintenance. What happens to these calories?
I know people here will say that 'naturally' thin people just 'naturally' balance out their eating day to day (even when eating a lot of very high-calorie foods daily without a second thought); and yet they claim that for someone not able to lose weight, that difference between a measured cup and a weighted one is making that difference that's not letting them lose weight. That's true even if that person was, just a few years earlier, that person who 'naturally balanced' their calories. That just doesn't ring true for me in most of the cases. Again, no one will believe these anecdotal cases, but of all my friends, those who are 'naturally skinny' are the ones who eat whatever they want in whatever amounts they want with no second thought. Those who lean on the chubby side are constantly concerned about it, constantly restricting their diets and eating very little, exercising, and yet either yo-yo-ing, losing very little and getting stuck, or unable to lose at all. I know people will come up with all sorts of reasons - they sneak food at night, the skinny people move more, whatever. I have trouble believing that this is truly what makes the difference for every single person. Another point is that the chubbier women, looking at photos when they were younger, were always like this, since early teens, they tend to be 'built' wider and have 'bulkier' bodies, even when they lose weight, and same for the thin women who tend to be tall, lean, and 'narrow' in their frames.
The good thing about science is, it doesn't care about what you believe.32
Categories
- All Categories
- 1.4M Health, Wellness and Goals
- 391.6K Introduce Yourself
- 43.5K Getting Started
- 259.7K Health and Weight Loss
- 175.6K Food and Nutrition
- 47.3K Recipes
- 232.3K Fitness and Exercise
- 393 Sleep, Mindfulness and Overall Wellness
- 6.4K Goal: Maintaining Weight
- 8.5K Goal: Gaining Weight and Body Building
- 152.7K Motivation and Support
- 7.8K Challenges
- 1.3K Debate Club
- 96.3K Chit-Chat
- 2.5K Fun and Games
- 3.3K MyFitnessPal Information
- 23 News and Announcements
- 935 Feature Suggestions and Ideas
- 2.3K MyFitnessPal Tech Support Questions