Lifting heavy... and gaining a lot of weight!
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Eat less. You don't need to eat more to make strength gains, especially if you have only been lifting for 6 weeks. You may find that you're more hungry... but that's not the same thing as *needing* to eat more.
Stick with your training program, but get your diet/intake dialed in. Most people aren't "slow responders" when they are doing what they need to be doing. Get things dialed in, be consistent with it, and I bet you'll see better results.6 -
Keladelphia wrote: »Me-A female certified Olympic weightlifting coach who does not take PED's and who for the first 2.5 years of training maintained 64kg-66.5kg (normal weight fluctuations) and made consistent strength increases (with plateaus for periods of time of course) throughout those 2.5 years. I personally consider this a long time, if you meant longer than 2.5 years again I apologize. My current numbers are a bit irrelevant as I have bulked and cut since them but I will list my numbers from start, 2.5 years into training which would be the scenario where I was not eating at a surplus and now post bulk/cut.
Back squat- Initially 125lbs 2.5 years into training 250lbs Currently 275lbs
Snatch- Initially 65lbs 2.5 years into training 145lbs Currently 175 lbs
Clean- Initially 85lbs 2.5 years into training 180lbs Currently 211lbs
Deadlift- Initially 175lbs 2.5 years into training 300lbs Currently 315lbs.
Your numbers are admirable, thank you for providing them.
They explain the differences; we are talking at cross purposes because of 2 vastly different time scales.
In a beginner strength program (such as Starting Strength), those are roughly the numbers you would be expected to hit (for sets of 5) in about 4-6 months instead of 30 months. That requires a lot more calories.
Different training methodologies and goals, obviously.
But for the record, I don't get the the difference between "previously carrying high levels of bodyfat" and "unless you are fat." If someone is fat then they are carrying high levels of bodyfat. Perhaps there is something in the semantics that I missed.
Like I said, thank you for providing the numbers. It makes more sense to me now.12 -
Keladelphia wrote: »Me-A female certified Olympic weightlifting coach who does not take PED's and who for the first 2.5 years of training maintained 64kg-66.5kg (normal weight fluctuations) and made consistent strength increases (with plateaus for periods of time of course) throughout those 2.5 years. I personally consider this a long time, if you meant longer than 2.5 years again I apologize. My current numbers are a bit irrelevant as I have bulked and cut since them but I will list my numbers from start, 2.5 years into training which would be the scenario where I was not eating at a surplus and now post bulk/cut.
Back squat- Initially 125lbs 2.5 years into training 250lbs Currently 275lbs
Snatch- Initially 65lbs 2.5 years into training 145lbs Currently 175 lbs
Clean- Initially 85lbs 2.5 years into training 180lbs Currently 211lbs
Deadlift- Initially 175lbs 2.5 years into training 300lbs Currently 315lbs.
Your numbers are admirable, thank you for providing them.
They explain the differences; we are talking at cross purposes because of 2 vastly different time scales.
In a beginner strength program (such as Starting Strength), those are roughly the numbers you would be expected to hit (for sets of 5) in about 4-6 months instead of 30 months. That requires a lot more calories.
Different training methodologies and goals, obviously.
But for the record, I don't get the the difference between "previously carrying high levels of bodyfat" and "unless you are fat." If someone is fat then they are carrying high levels of bodyfat. Perhaps there is something in the semantics that I missed.
Like I said, thank you for providing the numbers. It makes more sense to me now.
"previously carrying high levels of bodyfat" = me. A woman who used to be very overweight prior to starting a strength program at a normal weight and therefore may have started lifting with more lean body mass since I was very careful to retain as much muscle mass as possible with careful macros while I lost. Since I likely had more lean body mass when I started lifting it is possible that it could have made it easier for me to gain strength for a longer period of time than a 145 pounds woman who has never picked up a gallon of milk let alone carried around a 235 pound body for 28 years hence the reason I made the distinction as well as the statement that you "can" gain strength for a long period of time at a normal body weight, not that the OP necessarily will.
"Unless you are fat" = currently fat or currently carrying high levels of body fat at the start of a strength program.
Also, it's generally nice in these forums to just ask for clarification as opposed to taking personal shots and insinuating things such as PED use and accusing people of "wooing your post". It's also nice to note why you changed the details of your post after someone has responded to it.11 -
Keladelphia wrote: »The bolded part is not true. You can make strength gains for a LONG time eating at maintenance calories even if you aren't "fat." I am a perfect example of this.
You can claim it is not true, I don't care.
I will say that your assertion is lacking on a few counts:
#1 I didn't define "long" here, but neither did you.
Since I am referring to Beginner Strength Programs, your use of it implies something incongruous. My use has a definable duration based on the length of the program.
#2 I did not say "strength gains", I said BEGINNER STRENGTH PROGRAM.
Not the same thing. Not interchangeable terms. FAIL.
#3 The idea that you "can" do something is not a guarantee that you WILL, nor that anyone else WILL
#4 YNDTP, by definition. If you don't know that acronym then I would question your experience with Beginner Strength Programs.
#5 You may not be lifting in the target ranges and intensity for a Strength Program
#6 You were previously carrying higher levels of body fat (as I said) that you didn't account for in your initial calculations
#7 You may not be not progressing in your lifts as would be expected
#8 Your current TDEE calculations could be high (very common)
#9 You are a sample size of *1 person*, not the general population.
Maybe provide some numbers with your assertions next time.
I gave numbers and recommendations based on the official guidelines for a couple of well-known beginner's Strength Programs and I have a certified coach for one of those well-known and highly respected programs on my staff.
Your decision to cherry-pick one part of one statement I made about "maintaining weight" --when the question was about gaining too much weight-- is just confusing the issue.
If you are actually deadlifting ~ 280+ lbs and squatting around 230 lbs at about 140 to 150 lbs body weight -all without gaining a bit of weight every few weeks and without PEDs- on a Beginner's Strength Program then congratulations!
You hit the genetic lottery!
Great for you, seriously.
But please don't derail the discussion and confuse the locals.
** "Woo" means "Too good to be true".
What part of my explanation is "Too good to be true"?!
Trying to use "Woo" to imply you disagree with something is intellectually dishonest, at best.
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Thanks everyone for so much information!! It’s all really helpful for me.
I am certainly eating more than I am used to... I’m 175cm and weigh (as of this morning) 74kg. I’d like to be under 70kg. I have a largely sedentary job but workout five times a week and also walk our dog. I could probably step up the cardio/HIIT a bit, I haven’t really done that much since I’ve been strength training.
I ordinarily aim for around 1,600 calories which has worked for me - but I’ve been eating nearer 2,000 while training, a little more at weekends (!) But the first two weeks of strength training I ate my usual diet and I was just exhausted all the time (which was especially bad as I also just started a new job!) I’m having at least 40% protein each day. I had the DNA Fit test so I know I’m carb sensitive too... I weigh almost all my food. I probably eat too much fruit but since I like to graze, I think there are worse things I could eat!
I appreciate everyone is different and also that I possibly am simply just eating too much - I was just so horrified when I’ve been feeling so strong and motivated!
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Well not entirely true. Powerlifters compete in weight classes. So if they are at the top of their class in weight, they can't gain more. But many still increase poundage in their lifts without surplusing.
You will not be able to make your lifts on a strength program for long if you are not eating a surplus unless you are fat.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
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Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
4 -
Thanks everyone for so much information!! It’s all really helpful for me.
I am certainly eating more than I am used to... I’m 175cm and weigh (as of this morning) 74kg. I’d like to be under 70kg. I have a largely sedentary job but workout five times a week and also walk our dog. I could probably step up the cardio/HIIT a bit, I haven’t really done that much since I’ve been strength training.
I ordinarily aim for around 1,600 calories which has worked for me - but I’ve been eating nearer 2,000 while training, a little more at weekends (!) But the first two weeks of strength training I ate my usual diet and I was just exhausted all the time (which was especially bad as I also just started a new job!) I’m having at least 40% protein each day. I had the DNA Fit test so I know I’m carb sensitive too... I weigh almost all my food. I probably eat too much fruit but since I like to graze, I think there are worse things I could eat!
I appreciate everyone is different and also that I possibly am simply just eating too much - I was just so horrified when I’ve been feeling so strong and motivated!
If you are a grazer and want to try tightening up your logging, you might give the following a try: First, set your calorie goals by week instead of by day - this will give you more flexibility from day to day and works out just the same if your deficit averages out. Second, measure and set aside your snacks for the week ahead of time. So if you like grabbing a handful of berries or crackers or whatever, weigh out a container with whatever amount you want for the week. Then instead of trying to weigh and log every little handful, just divide the total by 7 and log some every day. It won't matter if your day to day amounts are off a bit so long as the week equals out.9 -
1kg per week during a muscle/strength-building phase is actually about perfect in terms of maximizing your gains without putting on excess fat7
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Keladelphia wrote: »Keladelphia wrote: »The bolded part is not true. You can make strength gains for a LONG time eating at maintenance calories even if you aren't "fat." I am a perfect example of this.
You can claim it is not true, I don't care.
I will say that your assertion is lacking on a few counts:
#1 I didn't define "long" here, neither did you
#2 I did not say "strength gains", I said STRENGTH PROGRAM. Not the same thing. Not interchangeable terms. FAIL.
#3 The idea that you "can" do something is not a guarantee that you WILL, nor that anyone else WILL
#4 YNDTP, by definition. If you don't know that acronym then I would question your experience.
#5 You may not be lifting in the target ranges and intensity for a Strength Program
#6 You were previously carrying levels of high levels of body fat (as I said) that you didn't account for in your initial calculations
#7 You are not progressing in your lifts as would be expected
#8 Your current TDEE calculations are actually high (very common)
Maybe provide some numbers with your assertions next time.
I gave numbers and recommendations based on the official guidelines for a couple of well-known Strength Programs and I have a certified coach for one of those well-known and highly respected programs on my staff.
Your decision to cherry-pick one part of one statement I made about "maintaining weight" when the question was about gaining too much weight is just confusing the issue.
If you are actually deadlifting almost 400 lbs and squatting around 300 lbs at about 140 to 150 lbs body weight -all without gaining a bit of weight every few weeks and without PEDs- on a beginner's Strength Program then congratulations!
You hit the genetic lottery!
Great for you, seriously.
But please don't derail the discussion and confuse the locals.
I don't care that you don't care. My intent was for the OP (who seems to be concerned about gaining weight) to realize that she doesn't need to eat at a surplus to make gains on a strength program for a good period of time ESPECIALLY as a beginner lifter. You seem to be overly sensitive to someone challenging you statement by your very attack like response (FAILS, PED Etc.)
Anyway, I'm not here to argue all of your points as I don't really understand how things such as my personal TDEE have anything to do with this discussion, talk about a derail. I personally don't believe my statement was derailing (i'm sorry to the OP if she feels it was) I made no other comment on the rest of your post because I didn't have issue with it, however your blanket statement of "You will not be able to make your lifts on a strength program for long if you are not eating a surplus unless you are fat" is what will "confuse the locals". Also note you didn't say anything about "previously carrying high levels of bodyfat" prior to lifting you simply said "unless you are fat."
Stating this insinuates that in order to continue making gains on a strength program the OP must eat at a surplus which is untrue despite what you may say. I didn't say the OP WILL continue to make progress on a strength program I said she can...as in it is possible to do so.
As far as putting out numbers I will provide mine if that will support my point that it is indeed possible to the OP. I wont debate your rage post again.
Me-A female certified Olympic weightlifting coach who does not take PED's and who for the first 2.5 years of training maintained 64kg-66.5kg (normal weight fluctuations) and made consistent strength increases (with plateaus for periods of time of course) throughout those 2.5 years. I personally consider this a long time, if you meant longer than 2.5 years again I apologize. My current numbers are a bit irrelevant as I have bulked and cut since them but I will list my numbers from start, 2.5 years into training which would be the scenario where I was not eating at a surplus and now post bulk/cut.
Back squat- Initially 125lbs 2.5 years into training 250lbs Currently 275lbs
Snatch- Initially 65lbs 2.5 years into training 145lbs Currently 175 lbs
Clean- Initially 85lbs 2.5 years into training 180lbs Currently 211lbs
Deadlift- Initially 175lbs 2.5 years into training 300lbs Currently 315lbs.
It's times like this when I miss having the "awesome" button.
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DavidJohnson29 wrote: »1kg per week during a muscle/strength-building phase is actually about perfect in terms of maximizing your gains without putting on excess fat
Not for females ...6 -
DavidJohnson29 wrote: »1kg per week during a muscle/strength-building phase is actually about perfect in terms of maximizing your gains without putting on excess fatDavidJohnson29 wrote: »1kg per week during a muscle/strength-building phase is actually about perfect in terms of maximizing your gains without putting on excess fat
Not for females ...
Not even for males. A natural (non-drug using) male lifter isn't going to put on anywhere near a kg (over 2 pounds) of muscle per week. The majority of that will be fat gain.9 -
How many reps are you doing? From what I’ve been told by trainers, higher reps is more beneficial to losing weight (12-15 reps) and lower reps (8-12) are more for muscle building.14
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TheImperfectMomma wrote: »How many reps are you doing? From what I’ve been told by trainers, higher reps is more beneficial to losing weight (12-15 reps) and lower reps (8-12) are more for muscle building.
you may want to get a new trainer!9 -
When I switched from being a cardio queen to lifting my appetite increased significantly. I didn't gain weight, but I didn't lose weight despite increasing the overall volume and intensity of my workouts...because I increased the volume of food I was consuming (without realizing it).
I had to change what and how I was eating to lose fat and increase strength. I upped my protein and tightened up my logging/weighing food.
It's also false that you can't make strength gains unless you are in a surplus. I've made strength gains during a cut, bulk, and maintenance. Strength gains and muscle gainz aren't the same thing.5 -
You’ve gotta eat less... there are a ton of “heavy lifters” In my gym who are quite heavy females. Based on the science of weight loss I know they are eating too much for their activity. Heavy weights don’t burn calories really, not like cardio does.2
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Thanks everyone for so much information!! It’s all really helpful for me.
I am certainly eating more than I am used to... I’m 175cm and weigh (as of this morning) 74kg. I’d like to be under 70kg. I have a largely sedentary job but workout five times a week and also walk our dog. I could probably step up the cardio/HIIT a bit, I haven’t really done that much since I’ve been strength training.
I ordinarily aim for around 1,600 calories which has worked for me - but I’ve been eating nearer 2,000 while training, a little more at weekends (!) But the first two weeks of strength training I ate my usual diet and I was just exhausted all the time (which was especially bad as I also just started a new job!) I’m having at least 40% protein each day. I had the DNA Fit test so I know I’m carb sensitive too... I weigh almost all my food. I probably eat too much fruit but since I like to graze, I think there are worse things I could eat!
I appreciate everyone is different and also that I possibly am simply just eating too much - I was just so horrified when I’ve been feeling so strong and motivated!
Those DNA tests are rubbish. Eat the carbs if you want. I feel awful without carbs.4
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