Has anyone had any experience gaining muscle on a Keto diet?
Replies
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Can you build muscle on a low carb diet? Yes.
Do you need carbs to build muscle? No.
DUH
need =/= optimization
Sleep well, eat protein-rich foods, and perform resistance exercise = build muscle… but you’d probably build more muscle by swapping out some dietary fat for carbs (assuming isonitrogenous & isocaloric diets). That’s partly why things like the Targeted Ketogenic Diet and Carb Nite were developed.
http://caloriesproper.com/muscle-growth-sans-carbs/4 -
natruallycurious wrote: »Performance is subjective to the individual and any test or set of tests can be skewed. What exactly is considered high intensity? Above a certain heart rate? And for a certain amount of time? When endurance is considered then at what distances? Or is it strength over time? So many factors that are very specific to the individual.
It doesn't matter what you define as high intensity. The fact remains unchanged that our bodies burn and use carbs differently than they do fat. Someone who is using fat as their primary source of energy is going to gas out faster and recover slower than someone who is using carbs as their source of energy. Plain and simple. This holds true on any given workout, low intensity or high intensity.
It does matter though. Especially when people want to submit articles/studies stating performance is impacted. Since this thread is specific to working out and gaining muscle, if a keto adapted person does not run out of energy after 60-75 minutes of intense strength training then what is the concern?10 -
natruallycurious wrote: »Performance is subjective to the individual and any test or set of tests can be skewed. What exactly is considered high intensity? Above a certain heart rate? And for a certain amount of time? When endurance is considered then at what distances? Or is it strength over time? So many factors that are very specific to the individual.
It doesn't matter what you define as high intensity. The fact remains unchanged that our bodies burn and use carbs differently than they do fat. Someone who is using fat as their primary source of energy is going to gas out faster and recover slower than someone who is using carbs as their source of energy. Plain and simple. This holds true on any given workout, low intensity or high intensity.
It does matter though. Especially when people want to submit articles/studies stating performance is impacted. Since this thread is specific to working out and gaining muscle, if a keto adapted person does not run out of energy after 60-75 minutes of intense strength training then what is the concern?
Do you understand the concept of intra-set ATP resynthesis, and why it matters for strength training?
ATP-CP and aerobic glycolysis are completely different energy pathways and don't have a whole lot to do with one another as regards strength training.13 -
Pulled directly from Lyle's ketogenic diet book:
Regardless of the ultimate cause of fatigue during weight training, glycogen depletion has
the potential to decrease performance through one of several mechanisms. Until more research
is done, we can only speculate as to the exact cause of fatigue. For the purpose of the ketogenic
diet, the exact cause of fatigue is more an academic question than a practical one. It is a basic
physiological fact that Type II fibers require glycogen to function optimally. Therefore, a SKD
will eventually decrease performance as well as inhibit muscle growth. Individuals who wish to
weight train on a ketogenic diet will have to consume carbohydrates at some point.11 -
natruallycurious wrote: »Performance is subjective to the individual and any test or set of tests can be skewed. What exactly is considered high intensity? Above a certain heart rate? And for a certain amount of time? When endurance is considered then at what distances? Or is it strength over time? So many factors that are very specific to the individual.
It doesn't matter what you define as high intensity. The fact remains unchanged that our bodies burn and use carbs differently than they do fat. Someone who is using fat as their primary source of energy is going to gas out faster and recover slower than someone who is using carbs as their source of energy. Plain and simple. This holds true on any given workout, low intensity or high intensity.
It does matter though. Especially when people want to submit articles/studies stating performance is impacted. Since this thread is specific to working out and gaining muscle, if a keto adapted person does not run out of energy after 60-75 minutes of intense strength training then what is the concern?
So do you train a different muscle group every set? Then I might see where you are coming from but it would be an odd workout.
Or do you do multiple sets working the same muscle group?
The piece of the jigsaw you seem to be missing is - it's not an hour plus of constant work (like cardio) it's repeated cycles of using up your ATP in your working muscles and replenishing it.
I guess you could compensate with really, really long rests between sets but then your overall volume will suffer.
Compromise = sub-optimal.8 -
natruallycurious wrote: »Performance is subjective to the individual and any test or set of tests can be skewed. What exactly is considered high intensity? Above a certain heart rate? And for a certain amount of time? When endurance is considered then at what distances? Or is it strength over time? So many factors that are very specific to the individual.
It doesn't matter what you define as high intensity. The fact remains unchanged that our bodies burn and use carbs differently than they do fat. Someone who is using fat as their primary source of energy is going to gas out faster and recover slower than someone who is using carbs as their source of energy. Plain and simple. This holds true on any given workout, low intensity or high intensity.
It does matter though. Especially when people want to submit articles/studies stating performance is impacted. Since this thread is specific to working out and gaining muscle, if a keto adapted person does not run out of energy after 60-75 minutes of intense strength training then what is the concern?
You can keep on insisting in light of the data that has been posted but that doesn't make what you say right. It's the equivalent of putting your fingers in your ears and saying, "lalalalalalalal".8 -
natruallycurious wrote: »Performance is subjective to the individual and any test or set of tests can be skewed. What exactly is considered high intensity? Above a certain heart rate? And for a certain amount of time? When endurance is considered then at what distances? Or is it strength over time? So many factors that are very specific to the individual.
It doesn't matter what you define as high intensity. The fact remains unchanged that our bodies burn and use carbs differently than they do fat. Someone who is using fat as their primary source of energy is going to gas out faster and recover slower than someone who is using carbs as their source of energy. Plain and simple. This holds true on any given workout, low intensity or high intensity.
It does matter though. Especially when people want to submit articles/studies stating performance is impacted. Since this thread is specific to working out and gaining muscle, if a keto adapted person does not run out of energy after 60-75 minutes of intense strength training then what is the concern?
You can keep on insisting in light of the data that has been posted but that doesn't make what you say right. It's the equivalent of putting your fingers in your ears and saying, "lalalalalalalal".
If by that you mean eat food to fuel your workouts. lalalalal...6 -
...eating popcorn making "gainz" from watching grown ups act like toddlers
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Since I was dinged to the thread earlier, I’ll go ahead and throw my personal experience in:
Keto bulking was *kitten* for me. All I got was fat, tired, and saw minimal increase in strength, even though I was still in what should have been the “noob gains” stage.
I’m sure that some can do fine with it, but I damned sure wasn’t one of them. And before “blah blah fat adapted”, I had been strict keto for six months prior to lose weight from 185-ish to 150 before I started the lifting and suplus.12 -
Keto_Vampire wrote: »...eating popcorn making "gainz" from watching grown ups act like toddlers
Well, we grow when we rest, so that's probably the best version of anabolic timing.
Basically me when adults argue on the internet:
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I feel that I am able to maintain on a keto diet but not gain. maybe if you are more of a beginner and going to make good results regardless it would work1
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natruallycurious wrote: »Performance is subjective to the individual and any test or set of tests can be skewed. What exactly is considered high intensity? Above a certain heart rate? And for a certain amount of time? When endurance is considered then at what distances? Or is it strength over time? So many factors that are very specific to the individual.
It doesn't matter what you define as high intensity. The fact remains unchanged that our bodies burn and use carbs differently than they do fat. Someone who is using fat as their primary source of energy is going to gas out faster and recover slower than someone who is using carbs as their source of energy. Plain and simple. This holds true on any given workout, low intensity or high intensity.
It does matter though. Especially when people want to submit articles/studies stating performance is impacted. Since this thread is specific to working out and gaining muscle, if a keto adapted person does not run out of energy after 60-75 minutes of intense strength training then what is the concern?
Do you understand the concept of intra-set ATP resynthesis, and why it matters for strength training?
ATP-CP and aerobic glycolysis are completely different energy pathways and don't have a whole lot to do with one another as regards strength training.Pulled directly from Lyle's ketogenic diet book:
Regardless of the ultimate cause of fatigue during weight training, glycogen depletion has
the potential to decrease performance through one of several mechanisms. Until more research
is done, we can only speculate as to the exact cause of fatigue. For the purpose of the ketogenic
diet, the exact cause of fatigue is more an academic question than a practical one. It is a basic
physiological fact that Type II fibers require glycogen to function optimally. Therefore, a SKD
will eventually decrease performance as well as inhibit muscle growth. Individuals who wish to
weight train on a ketogenic diet will have to consume carbohydrates at some point.
@AnvilHead @anubis609 Very interesting!
Still on the keto topic, but in relation to endurance events over 2 hours, I've seen ketoers say they don't "hit the wall".
But wouldn't they already have hit the wall before they start?1 -
natruallycurious wrote: »Performance is subjective to the individual and any test or set of tests can be skewed. What exactly is considered high intensity? Above a certain heart rate? And for a certain amount of time? When endurance is considered then at what distances? Or is it strength over time? So many factors that are very specific to the individual.
It doesn't matter what you define as high intensity. The fact remains unchanged that our bodies burn and use carbs differently than they do fat. Someone who is using fat as their primary source of energy is going to gas out faster and recover slower than someone who is using carbs as their source of energy. Plain and simple. This holds true on any given workout, low intensity or high intensity.
It does matter though. Especially when people want to submit articles/studies stating performance is impacted. Since this thread is specific to working out and gaining muscle, if a keto adapted person does not run out of energy after 60-75 minutes of intense strength training then what is the concern?
Do you understand the concept of intra-set ATP resynthesis, and why it matters for strength training?
ATP-CP and aerobic glycolysis are completely different energy pathways and don't have a whole lot to do with one another as regards strength training.Pulled directly from Lyle's ketogenic diet book:
Regardless of the ultimate cause of fatigue during weight training, glycogen depletion has
the potential to decrease performance through one of several mechanisms. Until more research
is done, we can only speculate as to the exact cause of fatigue. For the purpose of the ketogenic
diet, the exact cause of fatigue is more an academic question than a practical one. It is a basic
physiological fact that Type II fibers require glycogen to function optimally. Therefore, a SKD
will eventually decrease performance as well as inhibit muscle growth. Individuals who wish to
weight train on a ketogenic diet will have to consume carbohydrates at some point.
@AnvilHead @anubis609 Very interesting!
Still on the keto topic, but in relation to endurance events over 2 hours, I've seen ketoers say they don't "hit the wall".
But wouldn't they already have hit the wall before they start?
The method of training is that the athletes train in keto diet wise to enhance fat processing capabilties. The carb load before events, because you can't do a marathon or a 60 mile bike race fully keto. The thought process is that the "fat adapted" training puts off the "hitting the wall" phenomena which happens at about the 2 hour point when the body becomes glycogen depleted.
True or not? Some swear by it. I've haven't seen studies that confirm it. But that doesn't mean that, for the elite endurance athlete, there may not be some slight benefit. At that level, a slight benefit is the difference between winning a major event and not.
All that being said, the question of this thread is muscle gain on keto. Endurance athletes are not generally training for muscle gain. For muscle gain, the data indicates it is sub optimal for a variety of reason, not the least being carbs are protein sparing and aid the anabolic process.3 -
If you are a natural, then it will be hard and slow. Very inefficient.
But it can be done if you are willing to work about 2 or 3 times as hard for the same results.
Mauro Di Pasquale (and even John McCallum in the Keys To Progress) recommended a ketogenic diet to help bodybuilders and powerlifters to cut water weight and a bit of fat quickly without resorting to methods that might make them test positive for steroid abuse.
If you don't know those names (especially the first one) then you have some learning ahead of you.
Di Pasquale literally wrote the books on which most other keto exercise programs (at least the ones that will accurately cited their sources) are based.
For the record, McCallum recommended keto diets for bodybuilders in the 60's, so this is not new information.
The intent was NOT to live a low-carb "lifestyle"* because most people would not make their weight lifting targets when training after too long in ketosis. It was generally meant for cutting, not maintenance - and certainly not for bulking.
I did it for about 3 years but the gains were so slow that they were barely noticeable. I even coached clients on keto in the 90's.
But as soon as I added carbs back in (around 40%c 30%p 30%f works well for me) the results were quicker and much more obvious. It was less of a grind and lifting was more pleasant overall.
*Aside from using it to treat epilepsy in kids, etc.
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Cherimoose wrote: »Has anyone had any experience gaining muscle on a Keto diet?
If you're just trying to look more "toned".. which is what i suspect.. then yes, keto is fine, since looking toned is mostly about reducing body fat. Add in a good strength program and you're good to go.
On the other hand, if you want to bulk up and get bigger, follow the advice given the last time you asked about it:
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10641044/can-you-build-muscle-on-a-keto-diet
I'm not interested in "toning". I'm interested in lifting heavy. And anyone that has had personal experience in lifting and eating keto and what their results were which is why I reworded my question to include that. Have you had any experience in that?1 -
Thank you all for the opinions. Especially the ones that answered with specific experience in it. I appreciate it.1
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Take any athlete who competes against other athletes in just about any sport and performance isn't that subjective. One either out performs the other or not. You run a forty yard dash and someone beats you, you got out performed. That's not subjective, that's pretty black and white.Performance is subjective to the individual and any test or set of tests can be skewed. What exactly is considered high intensity? Above a certain heart rate? And for a certain amount of time? When endurance is considered then at what distances? Or is it strength over time? So many factors that are very specific to the individual.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
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Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
2 -
Cherimoose wrote: »Has anyone had any experience gaining muscle on a Keto diet?
If you're just trying to look more "toned".. which is what i suspect.. then yes, keto is fine, since looking toned is mostly about reducing body fat. Add in a good strength program and you're good to go.
On the other hand, if you want to bulk up and get bigger, follow the advice given the last time you asked about it:
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10641044/can-you-build-muscle-on-a-keto-diet
I'm not interested in "toning". I'm interested in lifting heavy. And anyone that has had personal experience in lifting and eating keto and what their results were which is why I reworded my question to include that. Have you had any experience in that?
For the average gym-goer who wants to get stronger, muscular adaptation to increased loads during strength training are more likely going to depend on your programming, protein, overall energy status, and recovery. Whether you focus on carbs or fat as your secondary macro are going to mean little in the beginning. You can certainly get stronger on any diet.
In states of competition, maximally available glycogen stores are likely going to beat out a glycogen depleted athlete.
https://www.physiology.org/doi/full/10.1152/japplphysiol.00949.2010This is one of the biggest mistakes that a lifter can make as carbs are a cornerstone of performance! It’s certainly a popular trend with low carb diets, but they’re not designed with the strength athlete in mind, they’re designed more for the average American who is much more sedentary in their lifestyle.
http://www.jtsstrength.com/articles/2014/05/20/top-3-strength-athlete-diet-mistakes/3
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