Cardio and Lift issues/question help
Villypierr
Posts: 44 Member
Hello everyone, I am in the process of losing weight (need to lose 7 kilos). I have my diet on track. I am training on Kick Boxing 5 years now, the thing is I stopped for a year and a gained weight as all athletes -usually- do, now the question is, I know I have to lift weights too ( never had to lift at the past cause I was thin and had no fat from kickboxing ) and it's not my favourite thing, I am not a fan of it but I will do it I promise 
Now, the thing is, I train 5 days a week for 2,5 hours kickboxing in the afternoon(almost night). Should I stop 2 days kickboxing and do lifting? or should I add lifting in the morning and keep up the 5 days kickboxing?
Thank you for your time. cHeeRs!!
Now, the thing is, I train 5 days a week for 2,5 hours kickboxing in the afternoon(almost night). Should I stop 2 days kickboxing and do lifting? or should I add lifting in the morning and keep up the 5 days kickboxing?
Thank you for your time. cHeeRs!!
1
Replies
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You don’t HAVE to lift weights. Do you do any body weight exercises at your kickboxing class?2
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Villypierr wrote: »Hello everyone, I am in the process of losing weight (need to lose 7 kilos). I have my diet on track. I am training on Kick Boxing 5 years now, the thing is I stopped for a year and a gained weight as all athletes -usually- do, now the question is, I know I have to lift weights too ( never had to lift at the past cause I was thin and had no fat from kickboxing ) and it's not my favourite thing, I am not a fan of it but I will do it I promise
Now, the thing is, I train 5 days a week for 2,5 hours kickboxing in the afternoon(almost night). Should I stop 2 days kickboxing and do lifting? or should I add lifting in the morning and keep up the 5 days kickboxing?
Thank you for your time. cHeeRs!!
I'm a proponent of lifting, but you don't "have" to lift weights. I dabbled in martial arts a bit, and there was always body weight stuff.2 -
Usually no. We have a half hour break where I usually do squats and leg exercises. Practice is full cardio at kickboxing... Why do people say that you need to lift to lose faster weight then?0
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Villypierr wrote: »Usually no. We have a half hour break where I usually do squats and leg exercises. Practice is full cardio at kickboxing... Why do people say that you need to lift to lose faster weight then?
I don't know anyone who says that personally.
Losing weight comes down to your calorie deficit...the speed at which you lose weight comes down to the size of your deficit. People lift weights and lose weight, maintain weight, and gain weight. The act of lifting in and of itself is pretty much irrelevant to weight management.
People typically recommend lifting because it preserves muscle mass so that when the individual cuts the fat, they come out the other side with an aesthetic look that a lot of people are going for...ie "toned"8 -
Villypierr wrote: »Usually no. We have a half hour break where I usually do squats and leg exercises. Practice is full cardio at kickboxing... Why do people say that you need to lift to lose faster weight then?
Resistance training (which isn't necessarily lifting) is great for your body. It helps you either build muscle or preserve the muscle you already have and many people find they prefer the way their body looks when they're focusing on some kind of structured plan to work their muscles.
Weight lifting won't necessarily result in faster weight loss (it depends on other factors), but it's still something people are often glad they began doing.6 -
ok, you are all very helpful... so... it's a myth that lifting helps your metabolism go faster?
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Villypierr wrote: »ok, you are all very helpful... so... it's a myth that lifting helps your metabolism go faster?
No, its not a myth, muscle does help increase your metabolism, but so does 2.5 hours of kickboxing 5x a week. I agree with the others its not necessary and if you don't like it, don't do it. Your feelings about lifting is how I feel about doing cardio.3 -
Villypierr wrote: »ok, you are all very helpful... so... it's a myth that lifting helps your metabolism go faster?
Strength training can allow you to build muscle and can increase your resting metabolic rate slightly. However, strength training in a calorie deficit does not build much muscle, your primary focus for strength training during weight loss is to minimize muscle loss while you lose weight.
If you wish to build muscle after weight loss you can choose recomp or bulk/cut cycles.2 -
Villypierr wrote: »ok, you are all very helpful... so... it's a myth that lifting helps your metabolism go faster?
Most strenuous exercise has some degree of EPOC (Excess Post-exercise Oxygen Consumption), but it doesn't amount to near as much as some people think.
A pound of muscle burns about 6 calories per day. A pound of fat burns about 2 calories per day. So you'd have to put on a very significant amount of muscle for it to make much of a difference in your resting metabolic rate. Gaining 25 pounds of muscle, which would be a huge accomplishment, would add up to an extra 150 calories per day (minus 2 calories per day for every pound of fat you lost along the way).9 -
Ok guys, So if I understood correctly from your posts which are very helpful, with simple words: when I lose the weight I need (which can happen only with the kickboxing and no weights ) then If I want to, I will start do lifting so I can make changes in the appearance of the muscle?
Sorry I don't know staff like that, I only hit the bag
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Villypierr wrote: »Ok guys, So if I understood correctly from your posts which are very helpful, with simple words: when I lose the weight I need (which can happen only with the kickboxing and no weights ) then If I want to, I will start do lifting so I can make changes in the appearance of the muscle?
Sorry I don't know staff like that, I only hit the bag
I think you've got it.
Your calorie deficit is how you lose fat. Your kickboxing helps you get/stay fit and allows you to burn calories which aides in your weight loss. Your kickboxing is going to be working plenty of your muscles.
Strength train for strength goals, aesthetic goals, etc. and its good for over all health.3 -
you never have to lift unless you want to.
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Villypierr wrote: »Ok guys, So if I understood correctly from your posts which are very helpful, with simple words: when I lose the weight I need (which can happen only with the kickboxing and no weights ) then If I want to, I will start do lifting so I can make changes in the appearance of the muscle?
Sorry I don't know staff like that, I only hit the bag
Yes, but it would be beneficial to you in the long run to maintain your current muscle. Bulking and gaining muscle is a much slower and more difficult task than losing fat is.4 -
Davidsdottir wrote: »Villypierr wrote: »Ok guys, So if I understood correctly from your posts which are very helpful, with simple words: when I lose the weight I need (which can happen only with the kickboxing and no weights ) then If I want to, I will start do lifting so I can make changes in the appearance of the muscle?
Sorry I don't know staff like that, I only hit the bag
Yes, but it would be beneficial to you in the long run to maintain your current muscle. Bulking and gaining muscle is a much slower and more difficult task than losing fat is.
^ Very true. Retaining the muscle you already have is a lot easier than regaining it after you've lost it.9 -
I think I can built muscle too cause I do grappling an BJJ once a week... Its resistance exercise and you lift physically lots of weight,yours and your partner's...0
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If you don't like lifting, you don't need it ever. If you won't be satisfied with the apparence of you body once you lose the weight, starting doing some strenght training will help you build muscle and that will give you a toned look, but I think in kickboxing you will develop muscle, even if you don't focus on it only. If you had a body that you liked with kickboxing only before, then probably it will happen again...3
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@AnvilHead I think your three woo'ers followed you over here.4
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Villypierr wrote: »ok, you are all very helpful... so... it's a myth that lifting helps your metabolism go faster?
Most strenuous exercise has some degree of EPOC (Excess Post-exercise Oxygen Consumption), but it doesn't amount to near as much as some people think.
A pound of muscle burns about 6 calories per day. A pound of fat burns about 2 calories per day. So you'd have to put on a very significant amount of muscle for it to make much of a difference in your resting metabolic rate. Gaining 25 pounds of muscle, which would be a huge accomplishment, would add up to an extra 150 calories per day (minus 2 calories per day for every pound of fat you lost along the way).
Have zero idea why you would get any "woo"s on this. It's spot on....
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If you're serious about the kickboxing(and it seems you are) When you start lifting you'll want programming that will support your training.
@cqbkaju is probably the best person to advise on that subject.
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stanmann571 wrote: »If you're serious about the kickboxing(and it seems you are) When you start lifting you'll want programming that will support your training.
@cqbkaju is probably the best person to advise on that subject.
I was serious few years ago, (and those years never had to do lift after 5 hour practice) now i just train for a hobby.0 -
Muscle is good, but lifting weights is not the only way to build or maintain muscle. I walk a lot, I teach fitness classes, and I do yoga, and as a result my legs and abs are super strong. I felt like I was neglecting my upper body (I teach a lot of spin, and when I tell my other classes to do push-ups I don’t do the set with them, etc.), so I lift for arms, chest, and back every Thursday.
There’s no visible or functional difference between the muscles I got through lifting and the muscles I got through other activities. They do all the same things, even though I had to “try” for one kind while the other came more naturally. I’d imagine that with all that kickboxing you’ve got pretty good muscle tone, so I wouldn’t worry too much. Maybe add a day to lift and see if you like it; I always notice it makes my yoga practice stronger. But if it doesn’t add anything to your life, skip it. 1 -
stanmann571 wrote: »If you're serious about the kickboxing(and it seems you are) When you start lifting you'll want programming that will support your training.
@cqbkaju is probably the best person to advise on that subject.
Hello @stanmann571, I hope you are well sir.
I don't know about being "the best person to advise on that subject", but I am happy to throw in a few ideas.
You are correct of course. One would be best served in this case by training to improve performance in the sport.
@Villypierr, training for any combat sport is demanding as you well know.
Generally, you should probably be doing your skills training and ring work *after* lifting or on days you are not lifting at all. You need to be rested and have a bit in the tank for weight training.
That might drive aerobic adaptation and fat loss a little higher due to some glycogen and ATP depletion.
But that really depends on your eating schedule, training intensity, and how far apart your lifting and kickboxing sessions are.
If you are fighting with international rules then your weight class may have a bit more leeway than most Muay Thai organizations. At least they do around here.
I recommend "Thinner Leaner Stronger" for the women I coach. It is adaptable to various training schedules. My best bit of advice is to buy the book and read it. That will at least help you understand your end-game here. The book isn't perfect but it is the best I've run across personally.
As far as dropping kickboxing sessions for weight training... What does your coach say? What are your goals?
I would say "Yes, probably" if you were in one of my training programs and had 6 months of experience, not to mention 5 years. It is diminishing returns after a point.
An exception could be if you were activity competing; ring time and full-contact sparring would take precedence. But if I understand correctly you just train as a hobby now.
You don't *have* to lift weights, but you really should. Body weight stuff does not strengthen bones (in other words help prevent osteoporosis in women) as much as relatively heavy resistance training. Barbell work also does a better job of offsetting sarcopenia (muscle loss due to aging) than body weight routines.
In my programs body weight stuff (knuckle push-ups, chin-ups but not planks..just do more push-ups) is good for warm-ups and cool-downs but it is not a substitute for barbell work. It is just like how skipping rope is decent aerobic work but isn't a substitute for ring time.
The same goes for programs where the heaviest thing you might move would be a dumbbell. Not enough bang-for-your-buck. Poor return on investment. You would practically be wasting your time doing that sort of stuff.
All of that being said, I'm not your coach and I've never even seen you move or fight. YMMV.
Good luck, keep hitting hard and Don't block with your face.
* I just dawned on me that by "kickboxing" you might mean "cardio-kickboxing" and have never been in the ring. Moving around a free-standing "bag" punching and kicking it (poorly) to music is not kickboxing. If that is the case then DEFINITELY drop some of the cardio classes for resistance training, focusing on the barbell compound lifts as described in the book.
Also, if that is the case then stop telling people you train in kickboxing
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Hey @cqbkaju, I of course mean that when it comes to the fight game you're one of the more vocal and relatively active posters. Hope you are well also.
Also, thanks for the comprehensive write up.0 -
This is not true. Maybe you don't want to do it or don't think you need to do it, but saying she doesn't "need it ever" is misleading at best.If you don't like lifting, you don't need it ever.
To begin with, I bet you will not be thinking that when you are around 50 or 60 and realize that you have brittle bones and insufficient muscle mass to keep the fat gain in check or maybe even to get off the toilet or out of a chair without using your hands to push yourself up. But this isn't meant to be about you.
If one does not incorporate some sort of progressive resistance training then they will not keep their muscles strong. The muscles will atrophy instead and that will lower one's TDEE, which will make it easier to put on extra fat. Please explain how you can effectively load all body weight exercises in a progressive manner.
That aside, unless they are something like a gymnast or yoga instructor and training pretty much daily then their "body weight training" is not going to be anywhere near enough volume to prevent muscle loss when they start to get older.
Sarcopenia. Look it up. ~5% muscle loss adds up and it accelerates when estrogen levels are not in check.
Please feel free to explain or link to a body weight equivalent of a squat or deadlift that puts the stress on the back, shoulders, spine and arms (off the top of my head) in a manner sufficient to force a measurable increase in bone density in the same manner as those 2 exercises.
If you can then you might be in line for Nobel Prize or something.
Doing a few wall sits and planks with 25 body weight squats and 25 push ups is not in the same league in regards to building strength as squatting 5 sets of 5 reps with your body weight on your shoulders or bench pressing 75% of your body weight for 5x5. This goes double for strengthening the bones.
Since she is a fighter and we are talking about her, she needs strong bones even more than an average woman.
Implying you don't need strong, efficient muscles is like saying you don't need your heart to work well. That is literal, since your heart is obviously a muscle.
People may not want to lift, but they also don't *ever need* (your words) to eat in a manner which is nutritionally balanced and within their calorie requirements.
They can just eat whatever they want, any portion sizes, and at any time - and they will pay the price eventually. Is that making good choices?
Do they Ever Need to eat within the guidelines of CICO and a reasonably balanced nutrition plan? No, I suppose they can chose to be fat and/or sick instead. Our use of the word "need" is different.
I think you NEED to do what is best for your body and your training goals if you want to reach those goals in a time-efficient manner. Or even just for a good quality of life. But I've only been coaching full-contact fighters for about 25 or 30 years, so what do I know.
If you truly think 25 body weight squats are as effective for building strength / adding muscle / improving bone density / burning calories as squatting with your body weight on your shoulders 25 times then I am willing to enlighten you any time you want to stop by my gym.
Or you are free to experiment on your own.
By the way, it takes a lot of hubris to debate with a MMA coach on what is necessary to be an effective fighter if you've never even been in the ring or cage. I hope you've at least been in the ring a couple of times.1 -
you don't ever have to lift unless it is your goal to do so
millions of people never lift. they are just fine.1 -
you don't ever have to lift unless it is your goal to do so
millions of people never lift. they are just fine.
Seems like you completely missed @cqbkaju's point.
As an anecdote (not evidence), I can attest that at age 54 - one year ago - I had never done progressive overload lifting in my life. And it showed. I was skilled in a few sports, but was your average American couch potato tub of goo. Last February I started controlling my eating and doing cardio. About 3 months in, I started lifting. The cardio was fine and I was certainly becoming more fit aerobically and losing weight; but I was not developing any tone or tightening anything up. This despite doing what thought was strength and conditioning, using P90 (prelude to P90X - which I had done once in the past).
I can tell you that I was well on my way to all the health issues you typically find in our obese culture.
Then I got under a bar and started compound lifts in a progressive program. I started with the bar. That is my fountain of youth. A year later, I'm squatting 295 for reps (300 is a couple of weeks away), dead lifting 360, and have gone from not being able to do a single chin up to doing 3 sets of 8. My core is stronger than it's ever been and I can hold yoga positions I never could do before (I don't do yoga regularly, but those movements that require core strength are dramatically improved). My core is dramatically stronger despite not doing any ab exercises for the first 10 months of lifting. (I've since added hanging leg raises and occasional planks).
People who never lift may be fine now, but they aren't doing themselves any favors by not taking advantage of it's amazing health benefits.
As I said, I am not scientific evidence. It's just my story. But for anybody who asks me how I've changed my look and ability, my first answer is always "get under a bar and your life will change".2 -
This is not true. Maybe you don't want to do it or don't think you need to do it, but saying she doesn't "need it ever" is misleading at best.If you don't like lifting, you don't need it ever.
To begin with, I bet you will not be thinking that when you are around 50 or 60 and realize that you have brittle bones and insufficient muscle mass to keep the fat gain in check or maybe even to get off the toilet or out of a chair without using your hands to push yourself up. But this isn't meant to be about you.
If one does not incorporate some sort of progressive resistance training then they will not keep their muscles strong. The muscles will atrophy instead and that will lower one's TDEE, which will make it easier to put on extra fat. Please explain how you can effectively load all body weight exercises in a progressive manner.
That aside, unless they are something like a gymnast or yoga instructor and training pretty much daily then their "body weight training" is not going to be anywhere near enough volume to prevent muscle loss when they start to get older.
Sarcopenia. Look it up. ~5% muscle loss adds up and it accelerates when estrogen levels are not in check.
Please feel free to explain or link to a body weight equivalent of a squat or deadlift that puts the stress on the back, shoulders, spine and arms (off the top of my head) in a manner sufficient to force a measurable increase in bone density in the same manner as those 2 exercises.
If you can then you might be in line for Nobel Prize or something.
Doing a few wall sits and planks with 25 body weight squats and 25 push ups is not in the same league in regards to building strength as squatting 5 sets of 5 reps with your body weight on your shoulders or bench pressing 75% of your body weight for 5x5. This goes double for strengthening the bones.
Since she is a fighter and we are talking about her, she needs strong bones even more than an average woman.
Implying you don't need strong, efficient muscles is like saying you don't need your heart to work well. That is literal, since your heart is obviously a muscle.
People may not want to lift, but they also don't *ever need* (your words) to eat in a manner which is nutritionally balanced and within their calorie requirements.
They can just eat whatever they want, any portion sizes, and at any time - and they will pay the price eventually. Is that making good choices?
Do they Ever Need to eat within the guidelines of CICO and a reasonably balanced nutrition plan? No, I suppose they can chose to be fat and/or sick instead. Our use of the word "need" is different.
I think you NEED to do what is best for your body and your training goals if you want to reach those goals in a time-efficient manner. Or even just for a good quality of life. But I've only been coaching full-contact fighters for about 25 or 30 years, so what do I know.
If you truly think 25 body weight squats are as effective for building strength / adding muscle / improving bone density / burning calories as squatting with your body weight on your shoulders 25 times then I am willing to enlighten you any time you want to stop by my gym.
Or you are free to experiment on your own.
By the way, it takes a lot of hubris to debate with a MMA coach on what is necessary to be an effective fighter if you've never even been in the ring or cage. I hope you've at least been in the ring a couple of times.
While I agree with everything you said, I think your (and my) definition of "need" and theirs are different. You and I would view this from what is needed and what is optimal for an athlete, in this case an MMA fighter. In the context of this thread, your point is absolute.
In the context of merely losing weight and being marginally more healthy than you were, I get it. At 67, I am not an athlete anymore. But I am looking to optimize my health. In that regard, I do cardio, lift 4 days per week and eat well while maintaining a healthy weight. I'm not looking to limp out the years I have left. I looking to attack and enjoy them in a vigorous way!1
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