PHAT?? Can anyone explain the program to me and how to do it at home?
mutantspicy
Posts: 624 Member
I have a pretty extensive home gym - complete dumbbell set from 5lb all way to 100's.
Pull up bar, horizontal parallel bars, bench, Barbell with 400lbs. So I have most of the stuff I would need to do the routine except I don't fully understand the program..
Things I'm missing (Squat Rack, knee extension/leg curl machine)
I can do Squats with Dumbells and/or hack squats with the bar, and replace knee extensions with a quad focused exercise like Bulgarian squats, I'm not sure how simulate leg curls maybe use the plyo box and parallel bar to do hanging leg curls.
but overall my biggest question is the program. Is there one? I've downloaded a couple of excel files people have put together. I'm just not seeing how the program is supposed to progress.
So it just a guideline for an example week and you progress in weight as you are able to? Is there any point where you change the routine? Am I missing something? Is there another link other than the simply shredded that I need to go to?
Pull up bar, horizontal parallel bars, bench, Barbell with 400lbs. So I have most of the stuff I would need to do the routine except I don't fully understand the program..
Things I'm missing (Squat Rack, knee extension/leg curl machine)
I can do Squats with Dumbells and/or hack squats with the bar, and replace knee extensions with a quad focused exercise like Bulgarian squats, I'm not sure how simulate leg curls maybe use the plyo box and parallel bar to do hanging leg curls.
but overall my biggest question is the program. Is there one? I've downloaded a couple of excel files people have put together. I'm just not seeing how the program is supposed to progress.
So it just a guideline for an example week and you progress in weight as you are able to? Is there any point where you change the routine? Am I missing something? Is there another link other than the simply shredded that I need to go to?
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Replies
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Never done PHAT, but stopping in because I'm surprised to hear bulgarians called a quad-dominant lift. I feel it's way more glute-centric.3
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Well you're right it definitely hits the glutes pretty hard, but if you lean more forward you get more quads.Davidsdottir wrote: »Never done PHAT, but stopping in because I'm surprised to hear bulgarians called a quad-dominant lift. I feel it's way more glute-centric.
But in general I'm looking for ideas for more quad centric and hamstring centric exercises as I don't have those machines. Also, dumbbell squats tend to hit the glutes more as well. So yeah I could use a dumbbell exercise that isolate quads a little more.
But meanwhile still trying to understand the basics of the program, I like the concept of it just not sure how the program is supposed to run.
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Davidsdottir wrote: »Never done PHAT, but stopping in because I'm surprised to hear bulgarians called a quad-dominant lift. I feel it's way more glute-centric.
I always feel it in the quads unless I really lean forward, even still. Most squats are classified as quad dominant as far as I know.3 -
Have you seen this write-up? It's by Layne Norton and he explains the program a bit.
http://www.simplyshredded.com/mega-feature-layne-norton-training-series-full-powerhypertrophy-routine-updated-2011.html
or is this the one you already read?
He does talk about plateaus and deloads. Progression, like all programs is going to be based on ability to complete all sets at the upper limits of each rep range.0 -
^Of course. I put together a program based on this article that I could do at home with mostly dumbells, But I wasn't sure if there is anything more to it. A lot of programs, will have you put in a 1RM and it will prescribe your weight progression over say 12 weeks, obviously you make adjustments to that based on results, but I'm not seeing anything like that with this. Is it basically just simple guideline and then progress your weight as you get stronger?0
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Davidsdottir wrote: »Never done PHAT, but stopping in because I'm surprised to hear bulgarians called a quad-dominant lift. I feel it's way more glute-centric.
I always feel it in the quads unless I really lean forward, even still. Most squats are classified as quad dominant as far as I know.
Really?! My glutes must seriously be firing then!0 -
Davidsdottir wrote: »Davidsdottir wrote: »Never done PHAT, but stopping in because I'm surprised to hear bulgarians called a quad-dominant lift. I feel it's way more glute-centric.
I always feel it in the quads unless I really lean forward, even still. Most squats are classified as quad dominant as far as I know.
Really?! My glutes must seriously be firing then!
I feel my glutes more when I do rows vs most squats haha1 -
Davidsdottir wrote: »Never done PHAT, but stopping in because I'm surprised to hear bulgarians called a quad-dominant lift. I feel it's way more glute-centric.
It all depends on how far your front foot is from the bench (specifically, the bench where your back toe is placed).
If your front foot is rather close to the bench, then it is a more knee-dominant move and that will place the brunt of the work on your quads.
If your front foot is further away from the bench, then it is a more hip-dominant move and that will place the brunt of the work on your glutes/hammies.
See? There ya go! :-)1 -
Davidsdottir wrote: »Davidsdottir wrote: »Never done PHAT, but stopping in because I'm surprised to hear bulgarians called a quad-dominant lift. I feel it's way more glute-centric.
I always feel it in the quads unless I really lean forward, even still. Most squats are classified as quad dominant as far as I know.
Really?! My glutes must seriously be firing then!
For *most* people, squats - and, let's be clear about this....there are front squats and there are back squats - are generally quad dominant. Sure, you squeeze your glutes on the way up....but the brunt of the work - for *most* people - is handled by the quads.
Definitely the case for Front Squats. Well, maybe - maybe not. But, for sure - fack squats and front squats hit the quads pretty hard, but each hits different parts of the quads.
And, bio-mechanically everyone is different. So, for some - their glutes may do a lot of the work.
It also depends on how far apart your feet are, how deep you go and and and.
Hip-Thrusters are likely one of the best exercises for very focused (er, isolated) glutes work.
Does that make sense?0 -
LiftHeavyThings27105 wrote: »Davidsdottir wrote: »Davidsdottir wrote: »Never done PHAT, but stopping in because I'm surprised to hear bulgarians called a quad-dominant lift. I feel it's way more glute-centric.
I always feel it in the quads unless I really lean forward, even still. Most squats are classified as quad dominant as far as I know.
Really?! My glutes must seriously be firing then!
For *most* people, squats - and, let's be clear about this....there are front squats and there are back squats - are generally quad dominant. Sure, you squeeze your glutes on the way up....but the brunt of the work - for *most* people - is handled by the quads.
Definitely the case for Front Squats. Well, maybe - maybe not. But, for sure - fack squats and front squats hit the quads pretty hard, but each hits different parts of the quads.
And, bio-mechanically everyone is different. So, for some - their glutes may do a lot of the work.
It also depends on how far apart your feet are, how deep you go and and and.
Hip-Thrusters are likely one of the best exercises for very focused (er, isolated) glutes work.
Does that make sense?
I'm actually very aware and do a variety of squats and hip thrusts for that reason. My comment honestly was only in regard to Bulgarians.
ETA I've been lifting for many years, not a newbie. Did I just get mansplained? LOL4 -
@Davidsdottir - if that is how you received it, then - yes! :-)
But, that does not mean that is how I sent it! :-) :-)0 -
LiftHeavyThings27105 wrote: »@Davidsdottir - if that is how you took it, then - yes! :-)
It was a great post, I just took the, "does that make sense?" to be a bit patronizing. I'm sure that wasn't your intent.0 -
No, ma'am! I often include that - in general - because I tend to use 10,000 words where 125 would suffice. So, since I know myself I ask that question. I never - at least it is never my intent - try to patronize anyone with anything. Put me in a conversation with Greg Knuckles and Eric Helms. I would just listen and not dare say a word. But - no.....no patronizing in my intent or in my spirit.0
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LiftHeavyThings27105 wrote: »No, ma'am! I often include that - in general - because I tend to use 10,000 words where 125 would suffice. So, since I know myself I ask that question. I never - at least it is never my intent - try to patronize anyone with anything. Put me in a conversation with Greg Knuckles and Eric Helms. I would just listen and not dare say a word. But - no.....no patronizing in my intent or in my spirit.
I figured as much. My apologies for getting defensive!0 -
Hey! Hey! We will have none of that @Davidsdottir!~ No need to apologize (but, totally accepted....). All good! I do look forward to more discussion. I love to talk (as my "10,000 words when 125 would suffice" comment would attest!). And I love to help people.2
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LiftHeavyThings27105 wrote: »Hey! Hey! We will have none of that @Davidsdottir!~ No need to apologize (but, totally accepted....). All good! I do look forward to more discussion. I love to talk (as my "10,000 words when 125 would suffice" comment would attest!). And I love to help people.
At least I got two woos out of it.1 -
I did not even notice that. I am not sure that I know if a 'woo' is a good thing or a bad thing? I am guessing that it is a bad thing? Sarcasm, Sheldon? Right? :-)0
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LiftHeavyThings27105 wrote: »Davidsdottir wrote: »Davidsdottir wrote: »Never done PHAT, but stopping in because I'm surprised to hear bulgarians called a quad-dominant lift. I feel it's way more glute-centric.
I always feel it in the quads unless I really lean forward, even still. Most squats are classified as quad dominant as far as I know.
Really?! My glutes must seriously be firing then!
For *most* people, squats - and, let's be clear about this....there are front squats and there are back squats - are generally quad dominant. Sure, you squeeze your glutes on the way up....but the brunt of the work - for *most* people - is handled by the quads.
Definitely the case for Front Squats. Well, maybe - maybe not. But, for sure - fack squats and front squats hit the quads pretty hard, but each hits different parts of the quads.
And, bio-mechanically everyone is different. So, for some - their glutes may do a lot of the work.
It also depends on how far apart your feet are, how deep you go and and and.
Hip-Thrusters are likely one of the best exercises for very focused (er, isolated) glutes work.
Does that make sense?
I agree with all of this. I will say dumbell squats (parallel hold), because of the way you keep your knees back hinge at the hips to push the glutes back, you get a lot more activation in the glutes than you do with a back squat. You also get a good glute activation with sumo goblet squats, but yes hip thrusts are king for glutes.
But Thank you for pointing out front squats, That may just be the accessory lift I'm looking for. Ideally to follow this routine I would do it with a traditional back squat, but I really don't have the space for a squat rack currently.
I still want to hear from someone who has ran through this routine, to get an idea of how others have progressed thru. From what I gather week 1 is testing the waters, 2 thru 4 is working thru the routine without going to failure, finding your weight, after that its pushing the envelope trying to up your lifts as much as you can on strength days. I like the concept two low volume heavy weight strength days and 3 hypertrophy pump days. But I'd like to hear from anyone who has done it.0 -
Leg curl can be done with a bench, single dumbbell (tricky at first)
Alternative: glute hamstring raise/Nordic curl/Russian curl - need to stabilize the ankles with a barbell or something heavy (side of power cage, or bench, etc.).
Other leg curl alternative (hamstring slide) on wooden floor or slick hard floor: lay down on slick floor with a towel under the heels - curl heels towards glutes using the towel (can be done single legged too)
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Keto_Vampire wrote: »Leg curl can be done with a bench, single dumbbell (tricky at first)
Alternative: glute hamstring raise/Nordic curl/Russian curl - need to stabilize the ankles with a barbell or something heavy (side of power cage, or bench, etc.).
Other leg curl alternative (hamstring slide) on wooden floor or slick hard floor: lay down on slick floor with a towel under the heels - curl heels towards glutes using the towel (can be done single legged too)
I opted for feet elevated hip bridge with 60lb dumbell today. I don't have the leg curl strength for the lying down glute ham raise. Gives me something to work towards. I can do it on ham raise bench which I don't have, something about the leverage lying down its way harder. I do however have an area of slick floor to try the hamstring slide that might be more doable.
Thanks!1 -
I ran PHAT last fall during bulking. I'd say it took about 2 weeks of playing around with the weights to figure out where I needed to be. A lot of that was due to the shorter rest breaks for the power days and the even shorter rest breaks for the hyper days.
Once I got the weights figured out the rest of that cycle, the 2nd 4 week cycle was just getting conditioned to keep the pace. Lots of huffing and puffing going on.
It wasn't until the 3rd cycle that I started increasing weight or reps. Like jumping 10lbs on hack squats and lower the reps down, then, once I got all the required reps (and didn't feel like dying, lol) bump the weight and repeat.
I will point out that (for me) there is no way I could run this in a deficit, too much volume and intensity (plus I'm 48). Bulking, yes, maintenance, probably.
Overall though, I really enjoyed the program and will run it again next fall. Made some good size and strength gains.0 -
I have played with the idea of running PHAT and/or PULL at some point. But, have never done it. Yet. I do like the idea of "playing with the weight" at first. If you have never done this sorta thing then you will likely guess wrong and regret it.0
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LiftHeavyThings27105 wrote: »I have played with the idea of running PHAT and/or PULL at some point. But, have never done it. Yet. I do like the idea of "playing with the weight" at first. If you have never done this sorta thing then you will likely guess wrong and regret it.
Very true. I have most of my logs from lifting and used the weights from the last round of 531 as a basis for figuring out what to use. From there I looked at the volume and backed off, probably more than I needed to, but it set me for getting it right. I'd rather back off too much and build back up than to go overboard and set myself up for failure.
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Agreed! I tend to do the other way......hell yes I can handle this. Then I miss several months of gym time. Hey, that idea is not working so well. Let's find another way. I believe the answer is called "loose the ego"! Something like that. I am 51....been an athlete all my life (with a few years break). Still do pretty dang good for an old man. But, hey - who cares? Learning to be smarter than to bull rush everything. Lots of other folks do similar. I just am at the point where I am tired of playing with nutrition (vs. being in the gym!).0
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piperdown44 wrote: »I ran PHAT last fall during bulking. I'd say it took about 2 weeks of playing around with the weights to figure out where I needed to be. A lot of that was due to the shorter rest breaks for the power days and the even shorter rest breaks for the hyper days.
Once I got the weights figured out the rest of that cycle, the 2nd 4 week cycle was just getting conditioned to keep the pace. Lots of huffing and puffing going on.
It wasn't until the 3rd cycle that I started increasing weight or reps. Like jumping 10lbs on hack squats and lower the reps down, then, once I got all the required reps (and didn't feel like dying, lol) bump the weight and repeat.
I will point out that (for me) there is no way I could run this in a deficit, too much volume and intensity (plus I'm 48). Bulking, yes, maintenance, probably.
Overall though, I really enjoyed the program and will run it again next fall. Made some good size and strength gains.
Thanks for your input. I appreciate it and It is very helpful. I'm coming off a really high volume hypertrophy program that I created using my own modified version of Body Beast (got rid of the weird stuff and used the pacing and set structure). That routine is dumbbell centric lower weight but way more reps, I turned it into a 6 day 2xPPL split. So volume won't be an issue for me. For the me the struggle is the power days. I'm not used to doing pure strength lifting and I have to get used to longer rest cycles and upping my intensity. Its been a long time since I've done this kind of lifting. Its going to take me a cycle or two to find my weight and improve my grip strength to do the heavier loads.
It appears you did 4 week cycles? Did you alternate the main lift within each cycle or did you change the main lift after each cycle?
So I'm planning to alternate between Deadlift / Squat / Front Squat for lower. and Flat / Incline / Shoulder press for upper. The question is how long to stick with each lift, I'm thinking 3 to 4 weeks per lift.0 -
To the "how long" question - I would answer (somewhat generically) with this: as long as you are making respectable advances. Lifting heavy is much different from hypertrophy. Living in the 5rep range is a different beast! I am having a difficult time now in the 8 - 12 rep range. Anyway....your different parts of your program might answer that question.
Or, is that what you are talking about? And, do you have a "deload" week built-in (or, as I think might be a good idea....a somewhat auto-regulation "deload" week when you feel the need)?0 -
LiftHeavyThings27105 wrote: »To the "how long" question - I would answer (somewhat generically) with this: as long as you are making respectable advances. Lifting heavy is much different from hypertrophy. Living in the 5rep range is a different beast! I am having a difficult time now in the 8 - 12 rep range. Anyway....your different parts of your program might answer that question.
Or, is that what you are talking about? And, do you have a "deload" week built-in (or, as I think might be a good idea....a somewhat auto-regulation "deload" week when you feel the need)?
The PHAT program itself isn't super defined its more of a concept it seem open to a little interpretation. His other programs seem more defined. But this one is a good starting point for me to get back "real" lifting and not just heavy weight circuit training. So yeah I'm kinda trying to define what the program and cycles are going to look like for me. Rereading the article several times and talking to you guys and gals is helping me to put it together.0 -
Awesome. I know that Layne Norton might just know a thing or two about all things heavy! Glad that you are getting back at it! And that we are able to help.0
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on the leg curl: deadlifts (esp. stiff-legged) get the hamstrings pretty well.
Squats definitely get my quads almost universally.0 -
DL's and Squats are my primary lifts, I was looking to fill in the accessory lifts. I put in RDL's for the hyper trophy session, that should hit the hammies pretty well.on the leg curl: deadlifts (esp. stiff-legged) get the hamstrings pretty well.
Squats definitely get my quads almost universally.
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