Keto not losing should I just focus on basic diet
Replies
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I have not been disparaging to any of you.
RainWA - my answer is yes, from both research and anecdotally. Plus, I find it is hard to consume more than 3k in calories when doing high fat. Your satiation factors are screaming at you.
Okay - that is seriously funny. No, you are not going to lose weight eating at maintenance or in a surplus. That is just not how it works.
Keto was great for suppressing my appetite though.11 -
Here are a few. All 3 are from doctors. I am not eating a caloric deficit. I see others posting on MFP that they aren't either, while doing keto, and losing weight like crazy. My point in raising my viewpoint is that so many of us have tried the CICO and when we stall, it's 'hit the gym more' or 'eat less' and other things that make some of us feel even more miserable. If that works for you, go for it. But to be so dismissive and ugly just because someone points out there are other options is unnecessary. There are skinny people that develop T2 diabetes. There are people stalling who are eating 500 calories daily deficits. There are people eating to the heart's content on keto and losing weight without exercising and tracking calories. Those don't fit into the CICO model is all I'm saying.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC506782/
https://idmprogram.com/obesity-solving-the-two-compartment-problem/
https://www.dietdoctor.com/what-happens-if-you-eat-5800-calories-daily-on-an-lchf-diet32 -
If you are losing weight then you ARE eating in a caloric deficit, whether you are tracking calories or not.
EVERYONE does CICO because CICO is simply the equation describing the relationship between calories and weight.
CI>CO=Gain
CI<CO=Loss
CI=CO=Maintain
Stalls can be caused by water weight, hormones, inaccurate calculation/estimation of intake or output, and probably a few other things I'm omitting.
Not sure what T2D has to do with any of this.
There is no CICO model anymore than there is a gravity model. The fact that airplanes and birds can fly does not mean gravity doesn't apply to them.9 -
Here are a few. All 3 are from doctors. I am not eating a caloric deficit. I see others posting on MFP that they aren't either, while doing keto, and losing weight like crazy. My point in raising my viewpoint is that so many of us have tried the CICO and when we stall, it's 'hit the gym more' or 'eat less' and other things that make some of us feel even more miserable. If that works for you, go for it. But to be so dismissive and ugly just because someone points out there are other options is unnecessary. There are skinny people that develop T2 diabetes. There are people stalling who are eating 500 calories daily deficits. There are people eating to the heart's content on keto and losing weight without exercising and tracking calories. Those don't fit into the CICO model is all I'm saying.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC506782/
https://idmprogram.com/obesity-solving-the-two-compartment-problem/
https://www.dietdoctor.com/what-happens-if-you-eat-5800-calories-daily-on-an-lchf-diet
the first link is about thermic effect of macros not being equal.
second link author .. is anyone surprised... Dr Fung the laughing stock of the diet industry.
The dietdoctor link has zero science in it at all. the one link it has to a scientific summary wasnt even about the point it was linked for. Its tabloid trash.
Try again. you failed.16 -
Here are a few. All 3 are from doctors. I am not eating a caloric deficit. I see others posting on MFP that they aren't either, while doing keto, and losing weight like crazy. My point in raising my viewpoint is that so many of us have tried the CICO and when we stall, it's 'hit the gym more' or 'eat less' and other things that make some of us feel even more miserable. If that works for you, go for it. But to be so dismissive and ugly just because someone points out there are other options is unnecessary. There are skinny people that develop T2 diabetes. There are people stalling who are eating 500 calories daily deficits. There are people eating to the heart's content on keto and losing weight without exercising and tracking calories. Those don't fit into the CICO model is all I'm saying.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC506782/
https://idmprogram.com/obesity-solving-the-two-compartment-problem/
https://www.dietdoctor.com/what-happens-if-you-eat-5800-calories-daily-on-an-lchf-diet
That's not research.
Again, you don't "try" the CICO. You don't "try that newfangled gravity thingamajigg". Gravity and CICO simply exist. They're laws of physics. Your body's fat stores are nothing more than fuel to supply energy to your cells because as any child knows, every action needs an energy input, there are no perpetual motion machines. Every child also knows that energy can't be destroyed or created. Those two things everyone learns in high school or so lead to the unshakable conclusion that your body needs some sort of energy input to live and move. That comes from food and if there's a lack thereof, from your bodyfat. You simply, absolutely, positively, 100% without any shadow of doubt as clear as the world is not flat, are NOT able to be at a 500 calorie deficit and not lose weight.17 -
if high carb, higher protein diets caused insulin dumps and fat gain then I would have NEVER lost any weight or fat. I lost over 30 inches all over my body-12 from my waist,10 from my hips.6 from each thigh,4 from my bust, and other places that are hard to measure. I eat more than 200g of carbs most days and I eat over 120g of protein. on a good day its more than 150g. Ive lost 44lbs.I lost it eating in a deficit. I tried keto and lost only 6 lbs of water in the first week. then it slowed back down and I was still in a deficit. come to find out I have a health issue and cant process fats and cholesterol properly and it was making me really sick. keto made me hungry and wanting to eat everything in the house. good thing I didnt give in.9
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My point was. First week mainly water I do that on any diet. Week 2 was 1.5 pounds again that can be achieved on any diet. Is there a benefit to doing keto rather than calories but and out.
The benefits to keto are often:- Appetite suppression and reduced cravings
- Improved health - often insulin resistance related like T2D, PCOS, Alzheimer's, or CVD
- You like the food.
I find that I lose slightly faster when keto but it is not a huge amount more, and I have some IR so it makes sense that it works well for me.
You've lost a LOT already. Losing just one pound a week means that you have cut your calories 500 kcal a day below what you normally need to maintain. (1 pound is approximately 3500 kcal.) To lose 2 lbs a week you would need to be short about 1000 kcal a day. Because of this, losing more than a couple of pounds a week is pretty hard to achieve. About 1-2 lbs a week is a great rate of loss. Be patient.
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I'm not doing keto, but my daughter is doing it. She has lost 12-13 pounds in a bit over a month. I'm doing WW Freestyle and logging faithfully, as well as MFP weighing and logging. My weight loss is slower, but it is moving steadily downward. I don't care if it takes months or a couple of years. I think most programs will work, the trick is keeping the weight off and not experiencing a rebound weight gain.5
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I gave 100 to lose. Just finished week 2 of strict keto. I’ve tried every other diet. First week lost 7.5 pounds. Second week lost a little over one pound. I don’t see the huge differences everyone claims ... I need long term. Should I focus on keto or general eat good calories In calories out concept.
Honestly, you should eat the foods that make you satiated, that you enjoy eating and can sustain. If you can do that in a ketogenic diet, than great, but if you find the ketogenic diet too restrictive, doesn't satiate you, or doesn't meet your goals for exercise, than you can add back in some carbs. There is no advantage, outside of personal satiety, of a ketogenic advantage.
For those with medical conditions like diabetes, PCOS or insulin resistance, low carb and/or keto can be advantageous. For those who don't have those issues those or who are highly actives, a diet higher in carbs (especially whole plant based ones) are going to provide much greater benefit.
It always will come down to calories though. Now, things like more protein can increase energy output, and eating highly nutritious foods can give you more energy, allowing you to become more active and driving greater energy output, but it still comes down to calories.
Also, be patient. You are doing well.6 -
Here are a few. All 3 are from doctors. I am not eating a caloric deficit. I see others posting on MFP that they aren't either, while doing keto, and losing weight like crazy. My point in raising my viewpoint is that so many of us have tried the CICO and when we stall, it's 'hit the gym more' or 'eat less' and other things that make some of us feel even more miserable. If that works for you, go for it. But to be so dismissive and ugly just because someone points out there are other options is unnecessary. There are skinny people that develop T2 diabetes. There are people stalling who are eating 500 calories daily deficits. There are people eating to the heart's content on keto and losing weight without exercising and tracking calories. Those don't fit into the CICO model is all I'm saying.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC506782/
https://idmprogram.com/obesity-solving-the-two-compartment-problem/
https://www.dietdoctor.com/what-happens-if-you-eat-5800-calories-daily-on-an-lchf-diet
I'd recommend reading the below papers from Dr. Kevin Hall, one of the leading researches in metabolism and a chief scientist at the NIH's National Institute for Diabetes and Digestives and Kidney Disease .
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/95/4/989
IDM is run by Dr. Fung who is an MD, not a researcher. He actually has little to no formal education in nutrition and doesn't have any research to back his wild claims. Diet doctor is a propoganda site to support all things low carb and run by people who only favor low carb.
And yes, some people who to care about insulin, but they are in the minority. Having chronic highly levels of insulin will inhibit lipolysis which will drive energy output lower which can make it harder to lose weight. But the average persons doesn't have to worry about that.11 -
Here are a few. All 3 are from doctors. I am not eating a caloric deficit. I see others posting on MFP that they aren't either, while doing keto, and losing weight like crazy. My point in raising my viewpoint is that so many of us have tried the CICO and when we stall, it's 'hit the gym more' or 'eat less' and other things that make some of us feel even more miserable. If that works for you, go for it. But to be so dismissive and ugly just because someone points out there are other options is unnecessary. There are skinny people that develop T2 diabetes. There are people stalling who are eating 500 calories daily deficits. There are people eating to the heart's content on keto and losing weight without exercising and tracking calories. Those don't fit into the CICO model is all I'm saying.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC506782/
https://idmprogram.com/obesity-solving-the-two-compartment-problem/
https://www.dietdoctor.com/what-happens-if-you-eat-5800-calories-daily-on-an-lchf-diet
Hi Susann, I see you are a new poster - I am, too, though not new to MFP. Welcome!
I am finishing nurse practitioner school, and my preceptor is a big proponent of the keto diet. She has had a lot of success with it. I lost ~200 pounds on the Atkins diet back in the '90's, which is a similar concept.
One of the best things about the keto diet, as you have said, is that it tends to keep blood sugar levels at a relatively steady level, decreasing the amount of insulin secreted by the pancreas. This helps reduce hunger caused by spiking/crashing blood glucose levels.
A meta-analysis from 2013 of all the RCTs comparing ketogenic to low-fat diets concluded that "ketogenic diet achieved greater long-term reductions in body weight and certain blood cardiovascular risk factors than those assigned to a low fat diet". So why is this? Does the ketogenic diet provide greater satiety with less variation in blood glucose/insulin secretion, leading to a reduction in calorie intake? Or are the calories themselves different?
You might see studies such as these, which compares energy expenditure during the maintenance phase of participants on a low-fat vs. low glycemic-index (i.e., only eating "good carbs") vs. ketogenic diet. The study found that those following a very low carb diet had the highest resting energy expenditure, what people might call a "fast metabolism". Every article I read referencing this study - and even the study itself - claims that the study suggests that "all calories are not equal". However, I believe this is misleading. What is really being compared here are the different macronutrients, and which one promotes higher resting energy expenditure. Those following the low-carb diet burned more calories at rest, thus they were able to lose and maintain weight loss longer. This is still CICO, though, for that very reason. They are burning more (or in the cause of maintenance, an equal amount of) calories than they are taking in.
TL;DR: Although many credible studies suggest that a ketogenic diet is superior to a low-fat diet in terms of weight loss and maintenance, this is a comparison of macronutrients, not calories. Some diets promote a higher "metabolism," leading to greater weight loss and continued maintenance - or increasing "calories out" to higher than "calories in". Therefore, CICO still applies. 9 -
I think when people talk about the "CICO method," they are referring to focusing on hitting a calorie goal without being as focused on which types of foods and macros are involved. The "if it fits your macros" approach. As in whether you spend your calories on egg white omelets or Twinkies, it's all good.
If that works for people, amazing, but I think most people need to put some thought into what foods they are eating and how that impacts their satiety and cravings. For some folks, that could mean keto (certainly works for me) and some might be fine eating a nice variety of fruits, grains, etc.
I do keto AND CICO, meaning I am careful about not exceeding a specific calorie max (most days) and net carbs max (also most days.)
I think that if you're struggling with keto, it's a good idea to also make sure you're within a certain calorie range. But if you're not counting calories and macros and are losing just fine on the keto approach, yay for you. Same for the folks who are weighing out Twinkies on their food scales. It's all good if it's working!!13 -
Running_and_Coffee wrote: »I think when people talk about the "CICO method," they are referring to focusing on hitting a calorie goal without being as focused on which types of foods and macros are involved. The "if it fits your macros" approach. As in whether you spend your calories on egg white omelets or Twinkies, it's all good.
If that works for people, amazing, but I think most people need to put some thought into what foods they are eating and how that impacts their satiety and cravings. For some folks, that could mean keto (certainly works for me) and some might be fine eating a nice variety of fruits, grains, etc.
I do keto AND CICO, meaning I am careful about not exceeding a specific calorie max (most days) and net carbs max (also most days.)
I think that if you're struggling with keto, it's a good idea to also make sure you're within a certain calorie range. But if you're not counting calories and macros and are losing just fine on the keto approach, yay for you. Same for the folks who are weighing out Twinkies on their food scales. It's all good if it's working!!
What I've observed here is that most people who recommend counting calories are putting thought into both meeting their nutritional needs and choosing foods/meals that drive satiety, they're just not following a specific set of "branded" rules to do so. Instead, they're looking at the overall context of their diet and making decisions based on how they've observed various choices impact them. For example, I've noticed if I have just fruit for breakfast, I feel hungry within an hour so I choose not to do that. There's no name for this kind of decision, it's just something I do.
I don't know if there is anyone who isn't putting any thought into the foods they're choosing and how those choices impact them, it's just that some of us aren't following a specific set of rules or guidelines that have a name or were created by others.
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Sorry, I know I disagree with you all, but I do know what CICO is and I'm saying calories don't matter. It's insulin that matters. And carb diets and high protein diets keeps your insulin dumping and fat gaining.
I wasn't even trying to lose weight in 2004 when I went to Costa Rica for 6 weeks and dropped a size while eating fruit all day long. When I wasn't eating fruit, I had rice and beans.
How did I lose weight effortlessly while on a high carb, low fat, low protein diet? Less calories than how I was eating at home.13 -
kshama2001 wrote: »Sorry, I know I disagree with you all, but I do know what CICO is and I'm saying calories don't matter. It's insulin that matters. And carb diets and high protein diets keeps your insulin dumping and fat gaining.
I wasn't even trying to lose weight in 2004 when I went to Costa Rica for 6 weeks and dropped a size while eating fruit all day long. When I wasn't eating fruit, I had rice and beans.
How did I lose weight effortlessly while on a high carb, low fat, low protein diet? Less calories than how I was eating at home.
By this poster's logic, we should also see elite endurance athletes, who often eat high or higher carbohydrate diets, gain fat even while they're training. But they don't.11 -
Here are a few. All 3 are from doctors. I am not eating a caloric deficit. I see others posting on MFP that they aren't either, while doing keto, and losing weight like crazy. My point in raising my viewpoint is that so many of us have tried the CICO and when we stall, it's 'hit the gym more' or 'eat less' and other things that make some of us feel even more miserable. If that works for you, go for it. But to be so dismissive and ugly just because someone points out there are other options is unnecessary. There are skinny people that develop T2 diabetes. There are people stalling who are eating 500 calories daily deficits. There are people eating to the heart's content on keto and losing weight without exercising and tracking calories. Those don't fit into the CICO model is all I'm saying.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC506782/
https://idmprogram.com/obesity-solving-the-two-compartment-problem/
https://www.dietdoctor.com/what-happens-if-you-eat-5800-calories-daily-on-an-lchf-diet
Hi Susann, I see you are a new poster - I am, too, though not new to MFP. Welcome!
I am finishing nurse practitioner school, and my preceptor is a big proponent of the keto diet. She has had a lot of success with it. I lost ~200 pounds on the Atkins diet back in the '90's, which is a similar concept.
One of the best things about the keto diet, as you have said, is that it tends to keep blood sugar levels at a relatively steady level, decreasing the amount of insulin secreted by the pancreas. This helps reduce hunger caused by spiking/crashing blood glucose levels.
A meta-analysis from 2013 of all the RCTs comparing ketogenic to low-fat diets concluded that "ketogenic diet achieved greater long-term reductions in body weight and certain blood cardiovascular risk factors than those assigned to a low fat diet". So why is this? Does the ketogenic diet provide greater satiety with less variation in blood glucose/insulin secretion, leading to a reduction in calorie intake? Or are the calories themselves different?
You might see studies such as these, which compares energy expenditure during the maintenance phase of participants on a low-fat vs. low glycemic-index (i.e., only eating "good carbs") vs. ketogenic diet. The study found that those following a very low carb diet had the highest resting energy expenditure, what people might call a "fast metabolism". Every article I read referencing this study - and even the study itself - claims that the study suggests that "all calories are not equal". However, I believe this is misleading. What is really being compared here are the different macronutrients, and which one promotes higher resting energy expenditure. Those following the low-carb diet burned more calories at rest, thus they were able to lose and maintain weight loss longer. This is still CICO, though, for that very reason. They are burning more (or in the cause of maintenance, an equal amount of) calories than they are taking in.
TL;DR: Although many credible studies suggest that a ketogenic diet is superior to a low-fat diet in terms of weight loss and maintenance, this is a comparison of macronutrients, not calories. Some diets promote a higher "metabolism," leading to greater weight loss and continued maintenance - or increasing "calories out" to higher than "calories in". Therefore, CICO still applies.
There is one major issue with many low carb vs low fat studies... it is rare that the low carb group contains the same level of protein. Even in the second link, the low carb group had a 10% increase in protein. Protein is well known for their increase metabolic demand for digestion, increases in satiety and it's linkages to maintaining metabolic functions, as well as, muscle mass (higher muscle = faster metabolism).
When you compare studies where they hold protein steady, there is no difference in EE. Unfortunately, there are only a few... both done by Kevin Hall (NIH) and even funded by NuSI (Gary Taubes company).
In any event, if any nutrient is superior (and this has been shown to be fairly universal) it's protein, along with fiber. The highest satiety ratings are between protein and fiber. Both require the greatest energy to digestion and have been linked to the highest levels of dietary compliance.
Also, there is still a lot of debate on if insulin is related to hunger. There are demonstrated causes that as insulin increases, so does satiety. I know in the low carb and especially the keto community, they promote these spikes, but they never define a spike. They also never discuss how high carb societies are the healthiest and longest living.12 -
thank you for all the information and feedback - sorry for the debate.0
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I gave 100 to lose. Just finished week 2 of strict keto. I’ve tried every other diet. First week lost 7.5 pounds. Second week lost a little over one pound. I don’t see the huge differences everyone claims ... I need long term. Should I focus on keto or general eat good calories In calories out concept.
It won’t always show on the scale ... measuring your waist sometimes shows a significant shrink
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vgentile990 wrote: »I gave 100 to lose. Just finished week 2 of strict keto. I’ve tried every other diet. First week lost 7.5 pounds. Second week lost a little over one pound. I don’t see the huge differences everyone claims ... I need long term. Should I focus on keto or general eat good calories In calories out concept.
It won’t always show on the scale ... measuring your waist sometimes shows a significant shrink
...or not.
Weight loss isn't linear. As long as - measured over the accuracy of time - the scale continues to move in the right direction, everything is fine.4 -
I'm on week two as well and I've lost exactly 0. So 8lbs in two weeks is actually really good. With any "diet" there's going to be fluctuations and sometimes your body needs time to adjust. If you're loosing weight, I'd say stick with it. I mean, Keto isnt Magic and it works different on everyone. You can try something else to see if it works better for you, but two weeks isn't giving yourself much time to adjust and see if this new diet works well for you. If you have 100lbs to lose, then you'll lose a lot of that fast than say someone who has 20lbs to lose. I'd say focus on my you feel. Does this diet make dieting easier? Are you feeling satiated and healthy? If you answer yes, plus you're losing weight, then stick with it. If you feel like crap, maybe try making some tweaks and changes. Also, if you lose the weight too fast, you'll have more saggy skin. If you lose it slower, you give your body time to adjust to the changes and you shin can change as you lose fat. Some things to think about. Good luck!4
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You plateaued you need a cheat day when that happens to reset27
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Like almost everyone on MFP says, focus on calorie intake, be accurate using a food scale and honest when you log and no matter what, even those big red “you’ve gone over your calories” appear, reasses and keep going. You can do it, goodluck 4
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