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Air Plane seats
Replies
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kshama2001 wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »Y'all have nothing to complain about until you fly Space Available on a poorly sound-insulated C-5 in which the sets are set in backwards and the plane makes three approaches to each airport before landing and then strands you in Alaska for three days (none of which was disclosed before boarding)
However, it did only cost $10 so there's that.
LOL. were each of those 3 approaches standard or combat profile?
Love me some combat profile landings.
Not sure a big cargo plane like the C-5 can even do a combat profile
UH Yeah! HAWSOME!!! Sort of exciting coming into Bagram. Not so much coming into Dover.0 -
kshama2001 wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »Y'all have nothing to complain about until you fly Space Available on a poorly sound-insulated C-5 in which the sets are set in backwards and the plane makes three approaches to each airport before landing and then strands you in Alaska for three days (none of which was disclosed before boarding)
However, it did only cost $10 so there's that.
LOL. were each of those 3 approaches standard or combat profile? Love me some combat profile landings.
Not sure a big cargo plane like the C-5 can even do a combat profile
Oh she can. It's quite a sight to see a C-5's JATOs in action.1 -
Deregulation wasn't the primary issue causing TWA to move hubs....this was a direct result from disastrous St. Louis anti-business politics.
The article is about a lot more than the airlines, but the rest would be off topic for this thread. I didn't interpret it as saying that deregulation caused TWA to change hubs. My reading was that deregulation allowed the restructuring and mergers. At first, that was even good for the connectivity of St. Louis, when TWA bought Ozark and TWA made St. Louis a hub. But when American bought TWA and decided to move the hub to Chicago, St. Louis lost flights, because the three airlines were now just one, and that one changed its hub.
I'm no expert in St. Louis politics. If you have any articles you'd recommend or personal perspectives, I'd be interested in reading more.
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Deregulation wasn't the primary issue causing TWA to move hubs....this was a direct result from disastrous St. Louis anti-business politics.
The article is about a lot more than the airlines, but the rest would be off topic for this thread. I didn't interpret it as saying that deregulation caused TWA to change hubs. My reading was that deregulation allowed the restructuring and mergers. At first, that was even good for the connectivity of St. Louis, when TWA bought Ozark and TWA made St. Louis a hub. But when American bought TWA and decided to move the hub to Chicago, St. Louis lost flights, because the three airlines were now just one, and that one changed its hub.
I'm no expert in St. Louis politics. If you have any articles you'd recommend or personal perspectives, I'd be interested in reading more.
One merely has to look at the loss of Fortune 500 HQ and two NFL football teams to get an idea that business and others are leaving STL
I am so glad I stopped frequent flying in 2000.0 -
You can always buy an extra seat for personal comfort. I fly business but even then I have to ask for an extension seatbelt!1
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tbright1965 wrote: »
Deregulation wasn't the primary issue causing TWA to move hubs....this was a direct result from disastrous St. Louis anti-business politics.
The article is about a lot more than the airlines, but the rest would be off topic for this thread. I didn't interpret it as saying that deregulation caused TWA to change hubs. My reading was that deregulation allowed the restructuring and mergers. At first, that was even good for the connectivity of St. Louis, when TWA bought Ozark and TWA made St. Louis a hub. But when American bought TWA and decided to move the hub to Chicago, St. Louis lost flights, because the three airlines were now just one, and that one changed its hub.
I'm no expert in St. Louis politics. If you have any articles you'd recommend or personal perspectives, I'd be interested in reading more.
One merely has to look at the loss of Fortune 500 HQ and two NFL football teams to get an idea that business and others are leaving STL
I am so glad I stopped frequent flying in 2000.
I'm not familiar with St. Louis politics. Is there a specific anti-business political stance that is unique to the city?
It seems a number of the HQ departures are due to mergers with other companies with headquarters in larger cities or moves to cities that have been giving generous tax incentives to attract corporate relocations. Were the companies really driven out, or did St. Louis just decide it wasn't worth participating in the race to the bottom? Just look at the Amazon HQ2 contest, do you think the city that wins that will ever see the ROI against the incentives they put on the table?
As far as NFL teams are concerned, given the history of team owners extorting bigger and glitzier stadiums from cities at taxpayer expense, is it more because the St. Louis city government refused to put their taxpayers on the hook for something that should be paid for by the NFL? Or were the other cities bigger markets and far more generous to the teams at their own taxpayers' expense?
I'm not saying there isn't a trend, I'm just wondering if it indicates a business unfriendly city or one that doesn't put their taxpayers on the hook and end up losing the HQ anyway to the next merger or city that dangles more free stuff in a couple of years.2 -
STL is slow to change.
Oh, I agree with not selling out taxpayers by making promises of their money.
Regarding mergers, the question is why isn't the companies HQ'ed in STL not buying others and keep the HQ here?
I think it goes back to the slow adoption of railroads in St Louis (which was bigger than Chicago in the mid 19th century) and the Civil War which damaged railroads, that ultimately made Chicago the transportation hub that St Louis was on track, pardon the pun, to be before they were dragging their feet and slow to adopt and allow change.
And it's not much different today.
So it's not really anti-business as much as it's slow to adopt change.
Sometimes that's good. Sometimes that's bad.
Seems in the modern era, it's more bad than good.0 -
The article does not blame St. Louis. It explains how federal anti-trust and anti-monopoly laws were important in the establishment of the very successful local economy and how that changed from about the 1980s on when Regan changed guidelines and enforcement. Regional equity and local control were removed from consideration, and a period of acquisition of local businesses by larger, more distant corporations began. The advertising industry had been particularly successful in St. Louis, and the article shows how that went downhill. This is off topic, though, from the size of airline seats.1
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If she wants a bigger seat, then she should pay for business or first class. The Airlines care about PROFIT not about how comfortable overweight people are.
And someone who is morbidly obese, is not 'real people' sized in terms of healthy normalcy. It sounds she just wanted to 'woe is me' complain.
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While fitting into a plane seat has never been an issue for me personally, I've been on the receiving end of the problem several times. IMO, plane seats ARE too small and cramped for far too many people, and I'm not even talking about overweight people! I've had guys with broad shoulders (and not fat) spilling into my seat, and have seen friends who can't sit in a seat without their knees hitting the seat in front of them, forcing them to sit spread out because they literally cannot put their legs straight in front of their body, even with their feet under the seat in front. Talk about uncomfortable for everyone!
Of course, I've also had the overweight person spilling into my seat, and find that especially annoying (just being honest here). I feel like I get "punished" for being the thinner person by having a portion of my seat "taken over." I'm positive the other person is most likely mortified, but that doesn't change my situation.
Ideally, IMO, there would be a couple/few rows of seats in each plane designed to accommodate passengers of a "larger" size without the massive price increase you would see for 1st class. It doesn't need to be a plane full of seats that big, but a few rows with larger seats could probably take care of a majority of the issues. There aren't THAT many people that are spilling over that often.5 -
This has been interesting reading. I used to fly often but now I'm retired so I just fly a couple of times a year. I always book Economy Plus for flights of five or more hours. I have an issue that can contribute to blood clots so I get up and walk at least every two hours. My next flight will involve a non-stop from Houston to Sydney, Australia which will be at least 16 hours. When I look at the seat map, the regular economy seats are almost full but the Economy Plus ones are half booked at this point. Many are choosing to endure a long flight in tighter conditions than pay for the upgrade to Economy Plus.2
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This has been interesting reading. I used to fly often but now I'm retired so I just fly a couple of times a year. I always book Economy Plus for flights of five or more hours. I have an issue that can contribute to blood clots so I get up and walk at least every two hours. My next flight will involve a non-stop from Houston to Sydney, Australia which will be at least 16 hours. When I look at the seat map, the regular economy seats are almost full but the Economy Plus ones are half booked at this point. Many are choosing to endure a long flight in tighter conditions than pay for the upgrade to Economy Plus.
Not sure it is a choice. I could not afford the regular economy price for that flight without some very stringent economies. I would not be able to ‘choose’ economy plus - I just plain could not afford it.5 -
The way my life is, we've found that my long ago decision to collect airline miles with a credit card in view of a "someday" trip turns out to work pretty good as an annual short wedding anniversary trip to some town within a day's drive to a hotel paid with those miles. It appears that I have quite a lot of choices within a day's drive of Dallas.2
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This has been interesting reading. I used to fly often but now I'm retired so I just fly a couple of times a year. I always book Economy Plus for flights of five or more hours. I have an issue that can contribute to blood clots so I get up and walk at least every two hours. My next flight will involve a non-stop from Houston to Sydney, Australia which will be at least 16 hours. When I look at the seat map, the regular economy seats are almost full but the Economy Plus ones are half booked at this point. Many are choosing to endure a long flight in tighter conditions than pay for the upgrade to Economy Plus.
Not sure it is a choice. I could not afford the regular economy price for that flight without some very stringent economies. I would not be able to ‘choose’ economy plus - I just plain could not afford it.
Sure there's a choice, sit in the regular seat or don't go.7 -
Since I flew often, I accumulated frequent flier miles which I banked to use on expensive flights. The trick to using frequent flier miles so that you get the flights you want at the number of minimum miles is to book early; otherwise, the cheapest redemption will end up being several connections and extended flight time. Right now, the flights I booked from Columbus to Houston and then to Sydney are going for twice the number of miles I used. I have never had problem using miles for the flights I wanted. I went to England this spring using miles.
With using miles for the Australia trip, the cost of the economy plus seats were around $700 round trip. I put money aside each month for future trips, so the cost is manageable. You would be surprised how impulse purchases not made or that coffee out can add up over time, a total that can be applied for a "splurge.' The cost right now, if the same ticket was purchased, the cost of the economy ticket (refundable) would be $2100 and that is a refundable ticket with a fee for changing the ticket. When it comes to a bucket list trip, that is a ticket that isn't too extreme provided savings start early. When I last went to Sydney ten years ago, I paid $1600 for a ticket with a double connection and was about ten hours longer because of sitting in airports during connections.0 -
Please stop moaning. The airplane seats are just fine; the airlines are fine. Go fly on China Air and then complain.
So tired of people complaining.12 -
GOT_Obsessed wrote: »So in your people's opinion was my comment rude?
Not at all!! You were very nice.1 -
This is United and American airlines!! It pisses me off because my husband and i pay extra now for economy plus just to get some freaking leg room!!! I am 5'9" and my husband is 6'2". We both have very long legs!
My son is 6'5". If I book a flight for him I get the Coach plus. Luckily i have enough miles to get that upgrade free when I fly to China.2 -
Update: https://www.marketwatch.com/story/faa-declines-to-put-a-stop-to-the-incredible-shrinking-airline-seat-2018-07-09
"...The FAA was ordered to address the “case of the incredible shrinking airline seat” by a judge in the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit in 2017. On Friday, the regulatory agency responded to that order by ruling that seat shrinkage does not, in fact, affect consumer safety, so the FAA won’t be setting limits on legroom or seat width...
Besides being uncomfortable, the shrinking seats threaten the ability to evacuate a plane within 90 seconds, an FAA requirement, said Paul Hudson, president of FlyersRights.org. He said “the only likely recourse is for the traveling public is by overwhelming public outcry.”
“The FAA says that it has seen no evidence that passenger size, age or physical capacity effects evacuation time because it refuses to do testing that actually reflects the current passenger population and shrunken seats and aisle widths in any realistic way,” Hudson said.
The organization is suggesting consumers file complaints on Regulations.gov, send in videos of passenger experiences to Flyersrights.org, and contact their Congress members...
There may still be a chance seat size will be addressed in the coming year, however. The U.S. Department of Transportation’s inspector general Calvin Scovel announced a review of the FAA’s evacuation standard in June, responding to requests from the House Transportation Committee. He noted that modern planes have more seats, larger passengers, and more carry-on bags, making a review necessary."0 -
And on update on airplane bathroom size
https://www.bloombergquint.com/pursuits/2018/07/09/it-s-not-your-imagination-airline-restrooms-are-getting-smaller
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I guess it would just depend on the economics of it. If making seats bigger absolutely caused more people to fly despite an increase in cost, then the airlines would make seats bigger. They'd have to find that sweet spot where people are still willing to pay an increased price to make up for less seats, AND there are now more larger people taking advantage of that.
OR people in general could get tired of sitting in small seats, and refuse to fly the airlines with the smallest seats, cutting into that airline's profit, or in the alternative, maybe more people would rather pay less and sit in a tiny seat. At the end of the day, it's all numbers driven and airlines will have to adapt to striking a balance between what most people want, what they are willing to pay for, what makes them better than the competition, and what makes them more money.
An alternative would be to offer seats at different sizes and allow people to pay more for them, if this made up for the fact that there are less seats on the plane.
It really has nothing to do with what airlines "should" or "shouldn't" do. People get so bent out of shape because they can't fit in airline seats or roller coasters or trains, and some companies only make clothes up to size 20, etc, and they act like it's a personal attack on them. It's not. Companies are going to offer what makes them the absolute most money, which in some circumstances could equate to larger seats or clothes or whatever, or maybe not. I don't know what the answer is for airlines, but you will end up with what comes out to be the best outcome for the most people if you just let the market do its thing.5 -
I experienced my first episode of being seated next to an individual that really didn't fit in the seat. He was more than squished. He might have actually been mostly resting on the arm rests of the window seat of a 2 seat row. I'm just into the overweight spectrum - so pretty average, and after he took his place, I could not properly sit in my seat. I'm not talking about touching thighs or shoulders or armrest encroachment. I had to turn sideways and sit on the side of one butt cheek, twisted so my upper body and both arms were facing the aisle. That's just not acceptable. I was unable to use the seatbelt in that position. All of the thoughts ran through my head of how to be kind and how to ask the flight attendant if there was an open seat elsewhere without embarrassing him (the plane was full, from what I could see). I don't know what the solution is, but at some point, it's not just a matter of comfort, but one of safety. Perhaps, if a person needs two seats, airlines could use a system where they check-in in person and the agent can secure them a seat next to an unoccupied one if the plane is not full, or perhaps the gate agent could be made aware of the need, and have the ability to make that arrangement...something more discreet than flagging down the flight attendant. Most flights are not full - airlines could accomodate larger individuals often without losing money or having to sell 2 seats, or an expensive upgrade for someone who can't afford it. I know i've had a row to myself on occasion, which was nice, but i'm a short legged average size individual who has plenty of room, and I would be happy to see others of taller or broader size enjoy the extra room instead if the seat assignment algorithm could be programmed to take that into account.3
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Quite a few airlines offer a reasonably-priced upgrade to "economy plus" (or various other names) (and/or early seating if non-reserved seats) for the few rows in coach with some extra room. I would hazard to guess that if these frequently sold out quickly, that they would consider spending the money to increase the number of those roomier rows.1
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I experienced my first episode of being seated next to an individual that really didn't fit in the seat. He was more than squished. He might have actually been mostly resting on the arm rests of the window seat of a 2 seat row. I'm just into the overweight spectrum - so pretty average, and after he took his place, I could not properly sit in my seat. I'm not talking about touching thighs or shoulders or armrest encroachment. I had to turn sideways and sit on the side of one butt cheek, twisted so my upper body and both arms were facing the aisle. That's just not acceptable. I was unable to use the seatbelt in that position. All of the thoughts ran through my head of how to be kind and how to ask the flight attendant if there was an open seat elsewhere without embarrassing him (the plane was full, from what I could see). I don't know what the solution is, but at some point, it's not just a matter of comfort, but one of safety. Perhaps, if a person needs two seats, airlines could use a system where they check-in in person and the agent can secure them a seat next to an unoccupied one if the plane is not full, or perhaps the gate agent could be made aware of the need, and have the ability to make that arrangement...something more discreet than flagging down the flight attendant. Most flights are not full - airlines could accomodate larger individuals often without losing money or having to sell 2 seats, or an expensive upgrade for someone who can't afford it. I know i've had a row to myself on occasion, which was nice, but i'm a short legged average size individual who has plenty of room, and I would be happy to see others of taller or broader size enjoy the extra room instead if the seat assignment algorithm could be programmed to take that into account.
If one can't afford it they don't have to fly. Problem solved.7 -
I was going to say that airlines should setup some wider seats and then I stopped myself. There called 1st class. Then I thought about how do you classify when someone is required to move and pay for larger seating? Weight, size? I can't imagine the amount of lying about size or weight to avoid the cost. Not trying to be mean here as I was 40 + pounds over weight for years but I did change my diet and took an active interest to correct a unhealthy lifestyle. I am often it the store and see what food choices some morbidly obese people are eating. I then see them place the items in an electric ride on shopping cart because their joints have worn out carrying the load.I am not shaming them, I just feel sad. Not only has the government, experts and family let them down but they lack the desire, discipline or education to help themselves.1
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Southwest has a very nice policy. If you don't feel you can fit in a seat without impinging someone else they will seat you free in two seats if available and you go ask the agent. This may require you to consciously fly at off-peak hours but is very fair. If you don't want the embarrassment of asking they will allow you to buy 2 seats and then will refund you one after the flight. This way they save it for you. If however, you don't fit and know it and choose to take someone else's area then it's just rude.
I do wish they'd make some accommodation for height like this as well. I have twin sons who are currently 16 yo and 6'6. I always have to buy better seats for them.3 -
kshama2001 wrote: »Y'all have nothing to complain about until you fly Space Available on a poorly sound-insulated C-5 in which the sets are set in backwards and the plane makes three approaches to each airport before landing and then strands you in Alaska for three days (none of which was disclosed before boarding)
However, it did only cost $10 so there's that.
Been there done that but at least they gave me a pack of peanut butter crackers and a juice box.0 -
Getting fat enough that I was almost spilling into the next seat on Christmas flights home was my wake-up call. I find deliberately overselling flights and forcing passengers off to be way more abhorrent than cramming as many seats on as possible so I will take the small, uncomfortable seat if it minimizes the former. However I am a short woman so I'm definitely not as impacted by the small space- last time I flew I sat next to a guy who was probably about 6'4" with a bulky build. He looked miserable and I could tell he was trying to keep out of my space as much as possible but there's only so much you can do.
As far as people who are too overweight to fit, there really should be some system in place to make sure people who need two seats buy two but I don't know what that would look like and still be fair.2 -
Whenever possible, I buy the two tickets next to each other so that the only people in the row are me and/or my family. I am always willing to pay extra for more comfort. You were not insensitive for your comment. As a fatty, I feel the same, I should conform to the standards, not the standards to me.4
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This thread has me dreading the 15 hour flight I'm hopping on tomorrow!!!3
This discussion has been closed.
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