Friend on plan with too few calories
candicew70
Posts: 74 Member
My friend needs to lose about 60lbs. She joined a program lead by a leading medical center in our area that offers meal and exercise plan, counseling, etc. They did body scans, and determined that her BMR is 1600 (she has 127lbs of lean muscle). In order to preserve this, they're recommending weight lifting and cardio no more than 2x a week--which makes sense--but only 900 calories. That's insane, right? (and strikes me as incredibly irresponsible). They also talked to her about avoiding "starvation dieting" when she told them about her previous efforts to restrict calories. But uh...900 calories a day is a starvation diet. (I asked like 3 times--really? 900? you're sure?) If someone is very overweight would it make sense to start like this...? Or is this about seeing results fast (the program was spendy)? Maybe they're thinking people will not track well and go over? Am I missing something here?!!
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Replies
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MFP says the absolute minimum calorie limit for women is 1200 calories a day, and for men 1500. This is regardless of starting weight and assumes the person is sedentary. I can't comment about whether a "leading medical center" is giving the right advice to your friend, but since they will be seeing her often I guess her progress is being monitored somehow. It's possible they start her at 900 for a short period of time, then increase her daily calorie goal. I have no idea. It's nice she has you for a friend in her corner!1
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I'm no doctor but it seems like a recipe for disaster to me. Personally, I found that restricting too much eventually made me binge. I'm sure in theory that low calorie goal will help shed the lbs pretty quick but it just doesn't seem practical or sustainable. Just my 2 cents.5
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If her BMR is 1600, she should probably be eating at least 1600.8
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I’m a 5’5, 121 lb, lightly active female and lose weight on 1500 calories a day... I’m currently maintaining/attempting recomp at 1800. That is an insane defecit and makes me wonder if anyone in this medical center has training/education necessary to qualify them to make those decisions, because it certainly doesn’t seem like it. Just because someone is a doctor doesn’t mean they possess the proper knowledge to be giving out dietary recommendations.4
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127 pounds of lean muscle mass? That sounds impossible to me?6
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Pipsqueak1965 wrote: »127 pounds of lean muscle mass? That sounds impossible to me?
Why? I don't know about the muscle part, but it certainly could be true for lean mass in general. If the friend needs to lose 60 pounds, I'll estimate that she's maybe 190 (could be higher, could be lower, of course.) If you then assume that the body fat is 30 percent, that takes you to 133 of lean mass.2 -
If she has 60lbs of fat she can easily go on 2000kcals deficit without even losing muscle, so don't sweat it. Your body can use about ~35kcals per lb of body fat (74kcals/Kg) without having to break down muscle when on a caloric restriction diet that includes resistance training.
But yeah that would put her in a starvation mode so she would propably be just better off doing water fasting to avoid that and keep that 127 lbs of lean masswhile burning the fat.
57 -
But yeah that would put her in a starvation mode so she would propably be just better off doing water fasting to avoid that and keep that 127 lbs of lean masswhile burning the fat.
LOL. What now?
a) Starvation mode doesn't exist.
b) Water fasting in lieu of eating is just plain stupid.
24 -
I have seen on that extreme weight loss show (where participants are trying to qualify for weight loss surgery - is it “my 600 pound life”?) that the doc will put his patients on a medically supervised diet of about 900 calories a day, and it’s supposed to be just protein and veggies. But those people are generally 500+ pounds, and I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone actually stick to the 900 calories.
So I guess it’s possible that a medical centre is recommending 900 calories...but whether they “should” or not is totally beyond me.3 -
I've heard that some dietitians and doctors recommend a lower calorie goal to compensate for inaccurate logging. They assume most people will eyeball portions and forget to log some things.
Even so - I don't agree with that practice and think that doctors should set their patients up for success by explaining how to log accurately and stick to a healthy goal.12 -
collectingblues wrote: »
But yeah that would put her in a starvation mode so she would propably be just better off doing water fasting to avoid that and keep that 127 lbs of lean masswhile burning the fat.
LOL. What now?
a) Starvation mode doesn't exist.
b) Water fasting in lieu of eating is just plain stupid.
Oh, and you forgot - if too few calories equals 'starvation mode' how does a water fast (i.e. zero calories) not equal the same thing?!?!?10 -
I have seen on that extreme weight loss show (where participants are trying to qualify for weight loss surgery - is it “my 600 pound life”?) that the doc will put his patients on a medically supervised diet of about 900 calories a day, and it’s supposed to be just protein and veggies. But those people are generally 500+ pounds, and I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone actually stick to the 900 calories.
So I guess it’s possible that a medical centre is recommending 900 calories...but whether they “should” or not is totally beyond me.
Considering that a dietitian at the endocrinology clinic where I'm followed for type 1 diabetes informed me that I should drop down to < 1,000 calories and consider meal replacement shakes when I asked her how to *safely* lose the 10 pounds that I'd gained since going on an insulin pump, and that was *after* I told her I had a history of eating disorders.... Yeah. Professionals are often stupid.
(I was literally 10 pounds overweight. I was fairly active. She told me BMR and TDEE didn't matter, and the MFP wasn't going to do anything because "no one really cared about any of that stuff before". I left her office in tears, convinced that I must really be hugely fat because why else would she say that to me.)25 -
collectingblues wrote: »I have seen on that extreme weight loss show (where participants are trying to qualify for weight loss surgery - is it “my 600 pound life”?) that the doc will put his patients on a medically supervised diet of about 900 calories a day, and it’s supposed to be just protein and veggies. But those people are generally 500+ pounds, and I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone actually stick to the 900 calories.
So I guess it’s possible that a medical centre is recommending 900 calories...but whether they “should” or not is totally beyond me.
Considering that a dietitian at the endocrinology clinic where I'm followed for type 1 diabetes informed me that I should drop down to < 1,000 calories and consider meal replacement shakes when I asked her how to *safely* lose the 10 pounds that I'd gained since going on an insulin pump, and that was *after* I told her I had a history of eating disorders.... Yeah. Professionals are often stupid.
(I was literally 10 pounds overweight. I was fairly active. She told me BMR and TDEE didn't matter, and the MFP wasn't going to do anything because "no one really cared about any of that stuff before". I left her office in tears, convinced that I must really be hugely fat because why else would she say that to me.)
That is totally insane of her and so so so unsafe! I’m very glad you didn’t listen to that “expert advice” and I’m so sorry you had to endure that from an “expert”.3 -
collectingblues wrote: »Pipsqueak1965 wrote: »127 pounds of lean muscle mass? That sounds impossible to me?
Why? I don't know about the muscle part, but it certainly could be true for lean mass in general. If the friend needs to lose 60 pounds, I'll estimate that she's maybe 190 (could be higher, could be lower, of course.) If you then assume that the body fat is 30 percent, that takes you to 133 of lean mass.
I think we know what you mean, but people get caught up in the terminology. Our body weight is not a combination of only fat and muscle mass. We have bones, organs, fluids, etc, that would not be considered "lean mass". It's not the point of your post so it doesn't matter but I'm just giving you an explanation as to why people are questioning your statement.1 -
collectingblues wrote: »
But yeah that would put her in a starvation mode so she would propably be just better off doing water fasting to avoid that and keep that 127 lbs of lean masswhile burning the fat.
LOL. What now?
a) Starvation mode doesn't exist.
b) Water fasting in lieu of eating is just plain stupid.
Oh, and you forgot - if too few calories equals 'starvation mode' how does a water fast (i.e. zero calories) not equal the same thing?!?!?
When you are on a regular caloric restriction diet and eat a deficit your body adapts to that deficit. This happens by lowering you metabolic rate and reducing musclemass. This is a well known fact. When you water fast for a longer period of time the body does the opposite and the metabolic rate raises up to 12% due to the increase in noradrenaline levels after 3 days. After 4 days your body stops with the gluconeogenesis since you are in gull keto and starts to use your own fat storages to fuel you. Your hgh levels rest at 5 times at 5 day mark protecting your muscle and helping the lipolysis. This way your body gets 95% of its energy from fat and only 5% from muscle.
Edited "metabolic rate raised up to 12%" from 22%. Can't quote it all from memory
38 -
collectingblues wrote: »
But yeah that would put her in a starvation mode so she would propably be just better off doing water fasting to avoid that and keep that 127 lbs of lean masswhile burning the fat.
LOL. What now?
a) Starvation mode doesn't exist.
b) Water fasting in lieu of eating is just plain stupid.
Oh, and you forgot - if too few calories equals 'starvation mode' how does a water fast (i.e. zero calories) not equal the same thing?!?!?
When you are on a regular caloric restriction diet and eat a deficit your body adapts to that deficit. This happens by lowering you metabolic rate and reducing musclemass. This is a well known fact. When you water fast for a longer period of time the body does the opposite and the metabolic rate raises up to 22% due to the increase in noradrenaline levels after 3 days. After 4 days your body stops with the gluconeogenesis since you are in gull keto and starts to use your own fat storages to fuel you. Your hgh levels rest at 5 times at 5 day mark protecting your muscle and helping the lipolysis. This way your body gets 95% of its energy from fat and only 5% from muscle.
What is your source for this (not the AT, the rest of the stuff about fasting)?4 -
If she has 60lbs of fat she can easily go on 2000kcals deficit without even losing muscle, so don't sweat it. Your body can use about ~35kcals per lb of body fat (74kcals/Kg) without having to break down muscle when on a caloric restriction diet that includes resistance training.
But yeah that would put her in a starvation mode so she would propably be just better off doing water fasting to avoid that and keep that 127 lbs of lean masswhile burning the fat.
:noway:
This is just so much no all in one place.
OP, this "medical centre" is likely banking on a few things. 1) Your friend paid good money and is expecting quick results, they are pushing what gets fast results (not healthy). 2) People are notoriously bad at counting calories and they know her 900 is probably going to be at least 1200 (most likely). 3) If she fails at this, she will blame herself and not them, so she will be more likely to keep paying them.9 -
collectingblues wrote: »
But yeah that would put her in a starvation mode so she would propably be just better off doing water fasting to avoid that and keep that 127 lbs of lean masswhile burning the fat.
LOL. What now?
a) Starvation mode doesn't exist.
b) Water fasting in lieu of eating is just plain stupid.
Oh, and you forgot - if too few calories equals 'starvation mode' how does a water fast (i.e. zero calories) not equal the same thing?!?!?
When you are on a regular caloric restriction diet and eat a deficit your body adapts to that deficit. This happens by lowering you metabolic rate and reducing musclemass. This is a well known fact. When you water fast for a longer period of time the body does the opposite and the metabolic rate raises up to 22% due to the increase in noradrenaline levels after 3 days. After 4 days your body stops with the gluconeogenesis since you are in gull keto and starts to use your own fat storages to fuel you. Your hgh levels rest at 5 times at 5 day mark protecting your muscle and helping the lipolysis. This way your body gets 95% of its energy from fat and only 5% from muscle.
What is your source for this (not the AT, the rest of the stuff about fasting)?
The complete guide to fasting - Jason fung. You can find some of his lectures and interviews on YouTube and I recommend checking them out.42 -
900 calories?!.....nope. Maybe she misinterpreted what the doctor said? Or maybe the doctor is a quack? But 900 is not enough for anyone.2
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collectingblues wrote: »
But yeah that would put her in a starvation mode so she would propably be just better off doing water fasting to avoid that and keep that 127 lbs of lean masswhile burning the fat.
LOL. What now?
a) Starvation mode doesn't exist.
b) Water fasting in lieu of eating is just plain stupid.
Oh, and you forgot - if too few calories equals 'starvation mode' how does a water fast (i.e. zero calories) not equal the same thing?!?!?
When you are on a regular caloric restriction diet and eat a deficit your body adapts to that deficit. This happens by lowering you metabolic rate and reducing musclemass. This is a well known fact. When you water fast for a longer period of time the body does the opposite and the metabolic rate raises up to 22% due to the increase in noradrenaline levels after 3 days. After 4 days your body stops with the gluconeogenesis since you are in gull keto and starts to use your own fat storages to fuel you. Your hgh levels rest at 5 times at 5 day mark protecting your muscle and helping the lipolysis. This way your body gets 95% of its energy from fat and only 5% from muscle.
What is your source for this (not the AT, the rest of the stuff about fasting)?
The complete guide to fasting - Jason fung. You can find some of his lectures and interviews on YouTube and I recommend checking them out.
Well, that explains it. Fung's a quack.25 -
collectingblues wrote: »
But yeah that would put her in a starvation mode so she would propably be just better off doing water fasting to avoid that and keep that 127 lbs of lean masswhile burning the fat.
LOL. What now?
a) Starvation mode doesn't exist.
b) Water fasting in lieu of eating is just plain stupid.
Oh, and you forgot - if too few calories equals 'starvation mode' how does a water fast (i.e. zero calories) not equal the same thing?!?!?
When you are on a regular caloric restriction diet and eat a deficit your body adapts to that deficit. This happens by lowering you metabolic rate and reducing musclemass. This is a well known fact. When you water fast for a longer period of time the body does the opposite and the metabolic rate raises up to 22% due to the increase in noradrenaline levels after 3 days. After 4 days your body stops with the gluconeogenesis since you are in gull keto and starts to use your own fat storages to fuel you. Your hgh levels rest at 5 times at 5 day mark protecting your muscle and helping the lipolysis. This way your body gets 95% of its energy from fat and only 5% from muscle.
What is your source for this (not the AT, the rest of the stuff about fasting)?
The complete guide to fasting - Jason fung. You can find some of his lectures and interviews on YouTube and I recommend checking them out.
Oh--oh.......4 -
collectingblues wrote: »collectingblues wrote: »
But yeah that would put her in a starvation mode so she would propably be just better off doing water fasting to avoid that and keep that 127 lbs of lean masswhile burning the fat.
LOL. What now?
a) Starvation mode doesn't exist.
b) Water fasting in lieu of eating is just plain stupid.
Oh, and you forgot - if too few calories equals 'starvation mode' how does a water fast (i.e. zero calories) not equal the same thing?!?!?
When you are on a regular caloric restriction diet and eat a deficit your body adapts to that deficit. This happens by lowering you metabolic rate and reducing musclemass. This is a well known fact. When you water fast for a longer period of time the body does the opposite and the metabolic rate raises up to 22% due to the increase in noradrenaline levels after 3 days. After 4 days your body stops with the gluconeogenesis since you are in gull keto and starts to use your own fat storages to fuel you. Your hgh levels rest at 5 times at 5 day mark protecting your muscle and helping the lipolysis. This way your body gets 95% of its energy from fat and only 5% from muscle.
What is your source for this (not the AT, the rest of the stuff about fasting)?
The complete guide to fasting - Jason fung. You can find some of his lectures and interviews on YouTube and I recommend checking them out.
Well, that explains it. Fung's a quack.
I was thinking, "that smells like a big pile of Fung."15 -
collectingblues wrote: »collectingblues wrote: »
But yeah that would put her in a starvation mode so she would propably be just better off doing water fasting to avoid that and keep that 127 lbs of lean masswhile burning the fat.
LOL. What now?
a) Starvation mode doesn't exist.
b) Water fasting in lieu of eating is just plain stupid.
Oh, and you forgot - if too few calories equals 'starvation mode' how does a water fast (i.e. zero calories) not equal the same thing?!?!?
When you are on a regular caloric restriction diet and eat a deficit your body adapts to that deficit. This happens by lowering you metabolic rate and reducing musclemass. This is a well known fact. When you water fast for a longer period of time the body does the opposite and the metabolic rate raises up to 22% due to the increase in noradrenaline levels after 3 days. After 4 days your body stops with the gluconeogenesis since you are in gull keto and starts to use your own fat storages to fuel you. Your hgh levels rest at 5 times at 5 day mark protecting your muscle and helping the lipolysis. This way your body gets 95% of its energy from fat and only 5% from muscle.
What is your source for this (not the AT, the rest of the stuff about fasting)?
The complete guide to fasting - Jason fung. You can find some of his lectures and interviews on YouTube and I recommend checking them out.
Well, that explains it. Fung's a quack.
Care to elaborate why you think a doctor healing people with level 2 diabetes for a living is a quack? Wanna make a solid argument and not resort to name calling like a child?
34 -
collectingblues wrote: »collectingblues wrote: »
But yeah that would put her in a starvation mode so she would propably be just better off doing water fasting to avoid that and keep that 127 lbs of lean masswhile burning the fat.
LOL. What now?
a) Starvation mode doesn't exist.
b) Water fasting in lieu of eating is just plain stupid.
Oh, and you forgot - if too few calories equals 'starvation mode' how does a water fast (i.e. zero calories) not equal the same thing?!?!?
When you are on a regular caloric restriction diet and eat a deficit your body adapts to that deficit. This happens by lowering you metabolic rate and reducing musclemass. This is a well known fact. When you water fast for a longer period of time the body does the opposite and the metabolic rate raises up to 22% due to the increase in noradrenaline levels after 3 days. After 4 days your body stops with the gluconeogenesis since you are in gull keto and starts to use your own fat storages to fuel you. Your hgh levels rest at 5 times at 5 day mark protecting your muscle and helping the lipolysis. This way your body gets 95% of its energy from fat and only 5% from muscle.
What is your source for this (not the AT, the rest of the stuff about fasting)?
The complete guide to fasting - Jason fung. You can find some of his lectures and interviews on YouTube and I recommend checking them out.
Well, that explains it. Fung's a quack.
Care to elaborate why you think a doctor healing people with level 2 diabetes for a living is a quack? Wanna make a solid argument and not resort to name calling like a child?
What's the relevance of him "healing" diabetes (not sure this is truthful, by the way)? There's nothing in the OP about the friend having that condition, is there?16 -
collectingblues wrote: »collectingblues wrote: »
But yeah that would put her in a starvation mode so she would propably be just better off doing water fasting to avoid that and keep that 127 lbs of lean masswhile burning the fat.
LOL. What now?
a) Starvation mode doesn't exist.
b) Water fasting in lieu of eating is just plain stupid.
Oh, and you forgot - if too few calories equals 'starvation mode' how does a water fast (i.e. zero calories) not equal the same thing?!?!?
When you are on a regular caloric restriction diet and eat a deficit your body adapts to that deficit. This happens by lowering you metabolic rate and reducing musclemass. This is a well known fact. When you water fast for a longer period of time the body does the opposite and the metabolic rate raises up to 22% due to the increase in noradrenaline levels after 3 days. After 4 days your body stops with the gluconeogenesis since you are in gull keto and starts to use your own fat storages to fuel you. Your hgh levels rest at 5 times at 5 day mark protecting your muscle and helping the lipolysis. This way your body gets 95% of its energy from fat and only 5% from muscle.
What is your source for this (not the AT, the rest of the stuff about fasting)?
The complete guide to fasting - Jason fung. You can find some of his lectures and interviews on YouTube and I recommend checking them out.
Well, that explains it. Fung's a quack.
Care to elaborate why you think a doctor healing people with level 2 diabetes for a living is a quack? Wanna make a solid argument and not resort to name calling like a child?
He doesnt have proper education for the field and his theories have been disproven for decades. Hense hes a quack.20 -
collectingblues wrote: »collectingblues wrote: »
But yeah that would put her in a starvation mode so she would propably be just better off doing water fasting to avoid that and keep that 127 lbs of lean masswhile burning the fat.
LOL. What now?
a) Starvation mode doesn't exist.
b) Water fasting in lieu of eating is just plain stupid.
Oh, and you forgot - if too few calories equals 'starvation mode' how does a water fast (i.e. zero calories) not equal the same thing?!?!?
When you are on a regular caloric restriction diet and eat a deficit your body adapts to that deficit. This happens by lowering you metabolic rate and reducing musclemass. This is a well known fact. When you water fast for a longer period of time the body does the opposite and the metabolic rate raises up to 22% due to the increase in noradrenaline levels after 3 days. After 4 days your body stops with the gluconeogenesis since you are in gull keto and starts to use your own fat storages to fuel you. Your hgh levels rest at 5 times at 5 day mark protecting your muscle and helping the lipolysis. This way your body gets 95% of its energy from fat and only 5% from muscle.
What is your source for this (not the AT, the rest of the stuff about fasting)?
The complete guide to fasting - Jason fung. You can find some of his lectures and interviews on YouTube and I recommend checking them out.
Well, that explains it. Fung's a quack.
Care to elaborate why you think a doctor healing people with level 2 diabetes for a living is a quack? Wanna make a solid argument and not resort to name calling like a child?
Ok - here's an explanation... Fung believes that the body will store fat (and not burn it) if a person's insulin levels are elevated after eating, up to and including net fat storage when the person is in a deficit. That little gem of BS is more than enough to qualify him as a quack.18 -
nutmegoreo wrote: »If she has 60lbs of fat she can easily go on 2000kcals deficit without even losing muscle, so don't sweat it. Your body can use about ~35kcals per lb of body fat (74kcals/Kg) without having to break down muscle when on a caloric restriction diet that includes resistance training.
But yeah that would put her in a starvation mode so she would propably be just better off doing water fasting to avoid that and keep that 127 lbs of lean masswhile burning the fat.
:noway:
This is just so much no all in one place.
OP, this "medical centre" is likely banking on a few things. 1) Your friend paid good money and is expecting quick results, they are pushing what gets fast results (not healthy). 2) People are notoriously bad at counting calories and they know her 900 is probably going to be at least 1200 (most likely). 3) If she fails at this, she will blame herself and not them, so she will be more likely to keep paying them.
all of this. ↑3 -
collectingblues wrote: »collectingblues wrote: »
But yeah that would put her in a starvation mode so she would propably be just better off doing water fasting to avoid that and keep that 127 lbs of lean masswhile burning the fat.
LOL. What now?
a) Starvation mode doesn't exist.
b) Water fasting in lieu of eating is just plain stupid.
Oh, and you forgot - if too few calories equals 'starvation mode' how does a water fast (i.e. zero calories) not equal the same thing?!?!?
When you are on a regular caloric restriction diet and eat a deficit your body adapts to that deficit. This happens by lowering you metabolic rate and reducing musclemass. This is a well known fact. When you water fast for a longer period of time the body does the opposite and the metabolic rate raises up to 22% due to the increase in noradrenaline levels after 3 days. After 4 days your body stops with the gluconeogenesis since you are in gull keto and starts to use your own fat storages to fuel you. Your hgh levels rest at 5 times at 5 day mark protecting your muscle and helping the lipolysis. This way your body gets 95% of its energy from fat and only 5% from muscle.
What is your source for this (not the AT, the rest of the stuff about fasting)?
The complete guide to fasting - Jason fung. You can find some of his lectures and interviews on YouTube and I recommend checking them out.
Well, that explains it. Fung's a quack.
Care to elaborate why you think a doctor healing people with level 2 diabetes for a living is a quack? Wanna make a solid argument and not resort to name calling like a child?
Because type 2 diabetes is a chronic illness, and by its very definition cannot be cured/healed. You can go into remission if you *constantly* maintain certain nutritional levels, or go on medication, but you cannot cure it.
Don't believe that? Take a type 2 who has been following Fung's plan, and have them eat a SAD for a few months. See what happens.
If it were cured, wouldn't they no longer have the condition under any set of variables?
Anyone who claims you can cure diabetes is a shoddy practitioner.14 -
.5
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collectingblues wrote: »collectingblues wrote: »collectingblues wrote: »
But yeah that would put her in a starvation mode so she would propably be just better off doing water fasting to avoid that and keep that 127 lbs of lean masswhile burning the fat.
LOL. What now?
a) Starvation mode doesn't exist.
b) Water fasting in lieu of eating is just plain stupid.
Oh, and you forgot - if too few calories equals 'starvation mode' how does a water fast (i.e. zero calories) not equal the same thing?!?!?
When you are on a regular caloric restriction diet and eat a deficit your body adapts to that deficit. This happens by lowering you metabolic rate and reducing musclemass. This is a well known fact. When you water fast for a longer period of time the body does the opposite and the metabolic rate raises up to 22% due to the increase in noradrenaline levels after 3 days. After 4 days your body stops with the gluconeogenesis since you are in gull keto and starts to use your own fat storages to fuel you. Your hgh levels rest at 5 times at 5 day mark protecting your muscle and helping the lipolysis. This way your body gets 95% of its energy from fat and only 5% from muscle.
What is your source for this (not the AT, the rest of the stuff about fasting)?
The complete guide to fasting - Jason fung. You can find some of his lectures and interviews on YouTube and I recommend checking them out.
Well, that explains it. Fung's a quack.
Care to elaborate why you think a doctor healing people with level 2 diabetes for a living is a quack? Wanna make a solid argument and not resort to name calling like a child?
Because type 2 diabetes is a chronic illness, and by its very definition cannot be cured/healed. You can go into remission if you *constantly* maintain certain nutritional levels, or go on medication, but you cannot cure it.
Anyone who claims you can cure diabetes is a shoddy practitioner.
Further, if you were "healed" you could go back to eating whatever you like. instead of following the Fung diet forever.
So, not a cure, maybe a non-pharmaceutical treatment.12
This discussion has been closed.
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