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That Keto is so hot right now
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It’s certainly easier than weighing food, calorie counting and still be hungry at the end of the day with no calories left - In my experience (although I just do LCHF), but the principles the same!
But surely to follow a keto diet for weight loss, you would still need to weigh your food and count calories to know that you are in a calorie deficit still, for it to be successful?
I understand that different people find different macro ratios more satisfying. But one of the major claims I've seen about keto, is that there is no need to count calories. But if I ate more than I burn I would still gain. This just doesn't make sense.
you do still need a calorie deficit when eating keto. if you eat more than you burn you will gain weight no matter what way or eating you choose. people think with keto they dont have to count ,due to keto being body fat burning when its actually dietary fat that is used for fuel. do a search here on mfp for gaining weight on keto there are quite a few of those posts.
some people dont have to count calories but their bodies still count. so for those people they could lose weight without counting. I did it in 2003 but it was because I was eating less due to a broken leg and I couldnt get to the kitchen as often.I didnt count anything,just ate less food.
so its possible for some when doing keto (if their appetites are satiated by high fat) could lose without counting because they are eating less calories as for them they arent as hungry so they dont eat as much.
I don’t do keto, or maybe at times I am but I don’t track it, I aim for just LCHF.
I don’t weigh food and I am certainly not calorie counting at the moment, yet I am losing weight and have plenty of energy for running and tennis.
I am certainly eating in a deficit (there is no magic to LCHF - it’s still CICO) but it’s an intuitive deficit, which I find a lot more long term sustainable than having to calorie count.
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Those graphs were created by Stephan Guyenet (http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2015/11/carbohydrate-sugar-and-obesity-in.html). Many issues with the graphs themselves which gives the illusion of a greater trend.
Looking at the graphs though, the participants self-reported (notoriously inaccurate) roughly 508 grams of carbs/day/person in 2000 vs ~470 grams/day/person in 2010. That is still a *kitten* ton of carbs, and only ~7.5% decrease (again self-reported). This is total carbohydrate grams mind you, not a percent of calories or ratio of the diet. Sugar intake went from ~110 g/day/person to ~94 g/day/person (~15% decrease). You can also see that the %obesity roughly doubled from 1980-2000 (20 years; 100% increase), yet from 2000-2010 %obesity went from ~30%-~37.5%, only 25% increase. One could argue the moderate (but significant if these numbers are based on the Makarem et al. 2014 Br J Nutrition paper) decrease in carbohydrate and sugar consumption altered the obesity trend for the better... If anything, its no wonder %obesity continues to climb.
I'll just leave this here: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/26861437 -
its difficult to replenish muscle glycogen with a ketogenic diet.
the real key is to avoid refined carbs, white sugar, and foods made with flour22 -
CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »Wendyanneroberts wrote: »@tennisdude2004
Quote
It’s certainly easier than weighing food, calorie counting and still be hungry at the end of the day with no calories left - In my experience (although I just do LCHF), but the principles the same!
But surely to follow a keto diet for weight loss, you would still need to weigh your food and count calories to know that you are in a calorie deficit still, for it to be successful?
I understand that different people find different macro ratios more satisfying. But one of the major claims I've seen about keto, is that there is no need to count calories. But if I ate more than I burn I would still gain. This just doesn't make sense.
you do still need a calorie deficit when eating keto. if you eat more than you burn you will gain weight no matter what way or eating you choose. people think with keto they dont have to count ,due to keto being body fat burning when its actually dietary fat that is used for fuel. do a search here on mfp for gaining weight on keto there are quite a few of those posts.
some people dont have to count calories but their bodies still count. so for those people they could lose weight without counting. I did it in 2003 but it was because I was eating less due to a broken leg and I couldnt get to the kitchen as often.I didnt count anything,just ate less food.
so its possible for some when doing keto (if their appetites are satiated by high fat) could lose without counting because they are eating less calories as for them they arent as hungry so they dont eat as much. [/quote]
@Wendyanneroberts more and more are coming to agree with your experience of eating LCHF.
In short order (first 30-90 days) of Keto/LCHF Way Of Eating stopped my cravings that always turned into another round of binging. When at the age of 63 I went to this WOE as of Oct 2014 I decided to never try to lose weight again for the rest of my life but just to eat in a way to manage my 40 years of 7-8 pain levels without Rx Meds.
I knew I had to keep it simple at my age so I just stopped eating/drinking any foods containing added sugars and or any form of any grain. After a hellish first two weeks of going to this WOE cold turkeyu since tapering off never worked in my case it has been simple.
While I do weight twice each morning to insure I am staying hydrated that is all that I count/measure.
Never having gone hungry for nearly four years I think is the key reason this WOE working in my case. I do work to keep my daily carbs at or just under 50 grams but that just seems to come natural now. Getting to eat ALL that I want when I want it is a freedom I had not known for the prior 40 years. Currently I am eating coconut flakes and pure chocolate here just before bedtime until I can not hold anymore.
Best of continued success and not overthinking a simple health solution that works well for so many today.
Oh BTW I am down 50 pounds and have maintained that loss for the past three years without thought to how much I eat just what I eat.
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GaleHawkins wrote: »CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »Wendyanneroberts wrote: »@tennisdude2004
Quote
It’s certainly easier than weighing food, calorie counting and still be hungry at the end of the day with no calories left - In my experience (although I just do LCHF), but the principles the same!
you do still need a calorie deficit when eating keto. if you eat more than you burn you will gain weight no matter what way or eating you choose. people think with keto they dont have to count ,due to keto being body fat burning when its actually dietary fat that is used for fuel. do a search here on mfp for gaining weight on keto there are quite a few of those posts.
some people dont have to count calories but their bodies still count. so for those people they could lose weight without counting. I did it in 2003 but it was because I was eating less due to a broken leg and I couldnt get to the kitchen as often.I didnt count anything,just ate less food.
so its possible for some when doing keto (if their appetites are satiated by high fat) could lose without counting because they are eating less calories as for them they arent as hungry so they dont eat as much.
@Wendyanneroberts more and more are coming to agree with your experience of eating LCHF.
In short order (first 30-90 days) of Keto/LCHF Way Of Eating stopped my cravings that always turned into another round of binging. When at the age of 63 I went to this WOE as of Oct 2014 I decided to never try to lose weight again for the rest of my life but just to eat in a way to manage my 40 years of 7-8 pain levels without Rx Meds.
I knew I had to keep it simple at my age so I just stopped eating/drinking any foods containing added sugars and or any form of any grain. After a hellish first two weeks of going to this WOE cold turkeyu since tapering off never worked in my case it has been simple.
While I do weight twice each morning to insure I am staying hydrated that is all that I count/measure.
Never having gone hungry for nearly four years I think is the key reason this WOE working in my case. I do work to keep my daily carbs at or just under 50 grams but that just seems to come natural now. Getting to eat ALL that I want when I want it is a freedom I had not known for the prior 40 years. Currently I am eating coconut flakes and pure chocolate here just before bedtime until I can not hold anymore.
Best of continued success and not overthinking a simple health solution that works well for so many today.
Oh BTW I am down 50 pounds and have maintained that loss for the past three years without thought to how much I eat just what I eat.
mfp messed up this is what I said. anything above that was not what I said or typed "you do still need a calorie deficit when eating keto. if you eat more than you burn you will gain weight no matter what way or eating you choose. people think with keto they dont have to count ,due to keto being body fat burning when its actually dietary fat that is used for fuel. do a search here on mfp for gaining weight on keto there are quite a few of those posts.
some people dont have to count calories but their bodies still count. so for those people they could lose weight without counting. I did it in 2003 but it was because I was eating less due to a broken leg and I couldnt get to the kitchen as often.I didnt count anything,just ate less food.
so its possible for some when doing keto (if their appetites are satiated by high fat) could lose without counting because they are eating less calories as for them they arent as hungry so they dont eat as much.
I am not the one who said "But surely to follow a keto diet for weight loss, you would still need to weigh your food and count calories to know that you are in a calorie deficit still, for it to be successful?
I understand that different people find different macro ratios more satisfying. But one of the major claims I've seen about keto, is that there is no need to count calories. But if I ate more than I burn I would still gain. This just doesn't make sense.[/quote]"
but there is no way you are eating what you want til the point you cant hold any more and pure chocolate even 100% cacao still has carbs. coconut flakes also have carbs in them. also it means calories. even with maintaiing weight its still about calories keto or not.3 -
Anything that bucks the current trend would have to be something more extreme. Another Shock-n-Awe plan. Shock mode. Many will continue to choose the keto pathway to weight loss. I'm only concerned with the sustainability about 5 years out and beyond. The percentage of those who are still maintaining a major weight loss using any plan is where the rubber meets the road. I don't give two hoots about short term weight loss. I don't care about the extreme befores and afters pix. I'm moved when someone waaay down the road has not eaten it all back, rebound weight gain with friends. Then I'll sit up and take notice.
Dieting is a mind warp. I no longer believe in the extinction burst either. Your last act of defiance with trigger foods. If it really worked there would be no such thing as repeat customers for dieting. You would conduct one diet, one time and be fixed for the rest of your life. Your recovery would spontaneous.2 -
squattingduck wrote: »its difficult to replenish muscle glycogen with a ketogenic diet.
the real key is to avoid refined carbs, white sugar, and foods made with flour
Or you can eat a balanced diet and still incorporate some of those foods. There's no need to avoid any food unless you're calories are too low (for example women who eat 1200 calories have not much wiggle room for junk food). When I cut at 2400 calories, I am able to fit any types of food, I still make sure I get my fiber and micronutrients. However I am able to fit in sour patch kids for example into my diet. No need for any extremism especially if you're able to fit them into your diet without comprising nutrional foods.6 -
I remember the juicing diet being really popular. I hope veganism becomes really popular. Boycatting the sugar industry is on my radar as well.19
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edited to delete
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I have two friends that have been on the Keto diet for about a year. They're both having successful weight loss and seem to be happy with how the diet works. The library I work at had a Keto 101 type book come back yesterday so out of curiosity I thumbed through it at lunch, for about 2 minutes. When I got to the restrictions list....how anyone could keep up with that as a lifestyle change is beyond me. No beans? No root vegetables? I wouldn't be able to do that.10
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I have two friends that have been on the Keto diet for about a year. They're both having successful weight loss and seem to be happy with how the diet works. The library I work at had a Keto 101 type book come back yesterday so out of curiosity I thumbed through it at lunch, for about 2 minutes. When I got to the restrictions list....how anyone could keep up with that as a lifestyle change is beyond me. No beans? No root vegetables? I wouldn't be able to do that.
the diet works like any other diet aka a calorie deficit. But yeah keto for many isnt sustainable.Im one of those people but for me its because I cant do the high amounts of fat. and I like certain fruits and veggies and I like legumes and rice and bread too(I dont eat a lot though)6 -
I have two friends that have been on the Keto diet for about a year. They're both having successful weight loss and seem to be happy with how the diet works. The library I work at had a Keto 101 type book come back yesterday so out of curiosity I thumbed through it at lunch, for about 2 minutes. When I got to the restrictions list....how anyone could keep up with that as a lifestyle change is beyond me. No beans? No root vegetables? I wouldn't be able to do that.
Keto can work, but it's a tool. If it helps someone who has struggled all their life with weight loss and it keeps them in a caloric deficit and statiated throughout the day, then it works. But like every diet, they have one thing in common, they lose weight if they eat less calories than they burn....and the opposite happens if they eat more calories than they burn. It's all about picking a diet that's right for you, that helps you stick with your goals. For those 2 friends of yours, they found something that they can stick with and lose weight and that's great. But keto isn't for everyone, just like IF isn't for everyone or even eating vegan.8 -
squattingduck wrote: »its difficult to replenish muscle glycogen with a ketogenic diet.
the real key is to avoid refined carbs, white sugar, and foods made with flour
The bolder is not really correct. Glycogen will fall in the first few days of a ketogenic diet when the body is still trying to use glucose as its primary fuel source. Within days, glycogen stores are normal and are not any more depleted than a higher carb person would have, even when exercising hard.10 -
It’s really not a good review of it. Just another opinion based on what? So all of a sudden anecdotal evident should just be dismissed??? It may not be absolute proof. But when the anecdotal evidence matches MY RESULTS I tend to pay attention to it.
Why is it so hard for some of you to simply concede that for many people a Keto works and is just As valid as anything else??? Especially when you can find 1000s who swear by it.
Those of you that claim to eat 100s and 100s of carbs a day do not represent the population as a whole very well. Carb intake has exploded over the decades as has obesity.
For those of us out there who do not spend hours a week in a gym doing dead’s and obsessing over Marcos and food scales Keto is a very easy way to drop and maintain weight. To say nothing of some of its other promise.
In the past months I and dropped 15 lbs. I feel better in almost every way. I do not have hungry anymore. My blood work is drawn each month by doctors. It has improved with each month. But I guess I should ignore this because I do not have the science to back it up.
It's not about your anecdotal results. It's about the fact that Pete Evans is a woo-peddling quack making false claims, and the fact that even the medical authorities in his country agree that his "documentary" is a pile of garbage. As are 99% of the one-sided, pseudoscientific, propaganda hack job "documentaries" on Netflix.
Go watch "What The Health" (another Netflix crockumentary) next and see if you're persuaded that you're currently doing the worst thing you could ever do to yourself and should go vegan instead. Lots of "science" in that "documentary" too.
I so love this reply (bolded). I cannot abide Pete Evans. In a country that has one of the highest rates of skin cancer in the world, this man advocates strongly that people do NOT wear sunscreen. He used to be a strong Paleo advocate, until he found his next fad, keto. He had a book taken off the market because it advocated a Paleo diet for babies including a recipe for bone broth, which was touted as an ideal substitute for infant formula.1.The original DIY bone broth formula recipe was independently analysed and found to be unsafe. It could “cause permanent damage and possibly result in death,” experts concluded. Among problems were that it contained 749% as much vitamin A as breastmilk, 2326% as much vitamin B12, 1067% as much iron, 879% as much salt and 220% as much protein. Young babies’ immune and digestive systems cannot process very high levels of these nutrients.
This man belongs in the 18th century, living in a covered wagon and traveling from town to town with loud posters proclaiming his miracle cures for all that ails you. Absolute shyster.17 -
squattingduck wrote: »its difficult to replenish muscle glycogen with a ketogenic diet.
the real key is to avoid refined carbs, white sugar, and foods made with flour
The bolder is not really correct. Glycogen will fall in the first few days of a ketogenic diet when the body is still trying to use glucose as its primary fuel source. Within days, glycogen stores are normal and are not any more depleted than a higher carb person would have, even when exercising hard.
Citation needed.
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johnslater461 wrote: »squattingduck wrote: »its difficult to replenish muscle glycogen with a ketogenic diet.
the real key is to avoid refined carbs, white sugar, and foods made with flour
The bolder is not really correct. Glycogen will fall in the first few days of a ketogenic diet when the body is still trying to use glucose as its primary fuel source. Within days, glycogen stores are normal and are not any more depleted than a higher carb person would have, even when exercising hard.
Citation needed.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/268925215 -
johnslater461 wrote: »squattingduck wrote: »its difficult to replenish muscle glycogen with a ketogenic diet.
the real key is to avoid refined carbs, white sugar, and foods made with flour
The bolder is not really correct. Glycogen will fall in the first few days of a ketogenic diet when the body is still trying to use glucose as its primary fuel source. Within days, glycogen stores are normal and are not any more depleted than a higher carb person would have, even when exercising hard.
Citation needed.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26892521
"It was previously reported that a 4 week ketogenic diet in elite cyclists decreased resting muscle glycogen by half and the rate of glycogen use during exercise by 4-fold [10]. Other studies have shown that a low-carbohydrate/high-fat diet decreases resting glycogen and the rate of glycogen use during submaximal exercise [15,25]. The duration of the LC diet was shorter (4 weeks) in the work by Phinney et al. [10], suggesting that complete adaptations in glycogen homeostasis and kinetics may take several months. The different glycogen responses could also be due to lower carbohydrate intake, which was <10 g/day in cyclists [10] versus 86 g/day in the LC runners. "
Months, days.
Tomayto, Tomahto
ETA The 86g of carbs per day is a good bit higher than the 20-50g usually advocated for keto10 -
johnslater461 wrote: »johnslater461 wrote: »squattingduck wrote: »its difficult to replenish muscle glycogen with a ketogenic diet.
the real key is to avoid refined carbs, white sugar, and foods made with flour
The bolder is not really correct. Glycogen will fall in the first few days of a ketogenic diet when the body is still trying to use glucose as its primary fuel source. Within days, glycogen stores are normal and are not any more depleted than a higher carb person would have, even when exercising hard.
Citation needed.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26892521
"It was previously reported that a 4 week ketogenic diet in elite cyclists decreased resting muscle glycogen by half and the rate of glycogen use during exercise by 4-fold [10]. Other studies have shown that a low-carbohydrate/high-fat diet decreases resting glycogen and the rate of glycogen use during submaximal exercise [15,25]. The duration of the LC diet was shorter (4 weeks) in the work by Phinney et al. [10], suggesting that complete adaptations in glycogen homeostasis and kinetics may take several months. The different glycogen responses could also be due to lower carbohydrate intake, which was <10 g/day in cyclists [10] versus 86 g/day in the LC runners. "
Months, days.
Tomayto, Tomahto
Apologies for not being exact enough.
...The last time I alluded to fat adaptation taking up to a few months, it was argued down based on Lyle or whoever's writing. Huh. I did not think many actually believed fat adaptation took longer than it takes to get into ketosis.10 -
johnslater461 wrote: »johnslater461 wrote: »squattingduck wrote: »its difficult to replenish muscle glycogen with a ketogenic diet.
the real key is to avoid refined carbs, white sugar, and foods made with flour
The bolder is not really correct. Glycogen will fall in the first few days of a ketogenic diet when the body is still trying to use glucose as its primary fuel source. Within days, glycogen stores are normal and are not any more depleted than a higher carb person would have, even when exercising hard.
Citation needed.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26892521
"It was previously reported that a 4 week ketogenic diet in elite cyclists decreased resting muscle glycogen by half and the rate of glycogen use during exercise by 4-fold [10]. Other studies have shown that a low-carbohydrate/high-fat diet decreases resting glycogen and the rate of glycogen use during submaximal exercise [15,25]. The duration of the LC diet was shorter (4 weeks) in the work by Phinney et al. [10], suggesting that complete adaptations in glycogen homeostasis and kinetics may take several months. The different glycogen responses could also be due to lower carbohydrate intake, which was <10 g/day in cyclists [10] versus 86 g/day in the LC runners. "
Months, days.
Tomayto, Tomahto
Apologies for not being exact enough.
...The last time I alluded to fat adaptation taking up to a few months, it was argued down based on Lyle or whoever's writing. Huh. I did not think many actually believed fat adaptation took longer than it takes to get into ketosis.
Why are you conflating fat adaptation with glycogen replenishment? Do you actually believe they are the same thing?13 -
johnslater461 wrote: »johnslater461 wrote: »squattingduck wrote: »its difficult to replenish muscle glycogen with a ketogenic diet.
the real key is to avoid refined carbs, white sugar, and foods made with flour
The bolder is not really correct. Glycogen will fall in the first few days of a ketogenic diet when the body is still trying to use glucose as its primary fuel source. Within days, glycogen stores are normal and are not any more depleted than a higher carb person would have, even when exercising hard.
Citation needed.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26892521
"It was previously reported that a 4 week ketogenic diet in elite cyclists decreased resting muscle glycogen by half and the rate of glycogen use during exercise by 4-fold [10]. Other studies have shown that a low-carbohydrate/high-fat diet decreases resting glycogen and the rate of glycogen use during submaximal exercise [15,25]. The duration of the LC diet was shorter (4 weeks) in the work by Phinney et al. [10], suggesting that complete adaptations in glycogen homeostasis and kinetics may take several months. The different glycogen responses could also be due to lower carbohydrate intake, which was <10 g/day in cyclists [10] versus 86 g/day in the LC runners. "
Months, days.
Tomayto, Tomahto
Apologies for not being exact enough.
...The last time I alluded to fat adaptation taking up to a few months, it was argued down based on Lyle or whoever's writing. Huh. I did not think many actually believed fat adaptation took longer than it takes to get into ketosis.johnslater461 wrote: »johnslater461 wrote: »squattingduck wrote: »its difficult to replenish muscle glycogen with a ketogenic diet.
the real key is to avoid refined carbs, white sugar, and foods made with flour
The bolder is not really correct. Glycogen will fall in the first few days of a ketogenic diet when the body is still trying to use glucose as its primary fuel source. Within days, glycogen stores are normal and are not any more depleted than a higher carb person would have, even when exercising hard.
Citation needed.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26892521
"It was previously reported that a 4 week ketogenic diet in elite cyclists decreased resting muscle glycogen by half and the rate of glycogen use during exercise by 4-fold [10]. Other studies have shown that a low-carbohydrate/high-fat diet decreases resting glycogen and the rate of glycogen use during submaximal exercise [15,25]. The duration of the LC diet was shorter (4 weeks) in the work by Phinney et al. [10], suggesting that complete adaptations in glycogen homeostasis and kinetics may take several months. The different glycogen responses could also be due to lower carbohydrate intake, which was <10 g/day in cyclists [10] versus 86 g/day in the LC runners. "
Months, days.
Tomayto, Tomahto
Apologies for not being exact enough.
...The last time I alluded to fat adaptation taking up to a few months, it was argued down based on Lyle or whoever's writing. Huh. I did not think many actually believed fat adaptation took longer than it takes to get into ketosis.
Not being exact enough? You confused a couple days with a couple months. That's a bit more extreme than not being exact enough. If your car broke down and your mechanic said it would take a couple days to fix and it instead took a couple months I'm fairly certain you would take issue with that. If you said a couple days when the truth was a week one could say you were stretching the truth, but you are so far off it's hard not to view that as deliberately deceitful.14
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